• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow

Zomba13

Member
I don't disagree that it could have been interesting to actually see Shepard struggle some with the decisions along the way, but having it come in the form that it did never set well with me while playing. Why did this one kid affect him so? Yes, yes, it represents so much more than just one kid, but that was handled very poorly, so the whole thing ended up falling flat.

As other have said, I think the dreams work much better if they are of those that Shepard has lost in the past. Perhaps they visit him in his dreams and actually have conversations with him. Something that you have more of a connection to.

Also, if they wanted to have Shepard finally break down, I think it would have been more interesting to have the game start with him grounded for having some mental break, not the ambiguous "charges" that we got in the start of the story. Maybe he didn't have a full break down, but he's under observation to see if he's fit for command. When the Reapers attack they have no choice but to send him back to the Normandy, but the weight of his choices continue to haunt him throughout the game and call into question his mental state.
I think that would have been pretty cool. Like with the Virmire loss they could be all 'why meeeeeee' and then you could have different ways of rationalising it which would affect later dreams. Like, you could say how you felt guilty or how it was the right choice etc and that would effect what happens in other dreams. Sadly all we got were bits where you chase after a kid in slow motion.
 

DTKT

Member
The major question I have is this: in the end with the flashbacks, why don't we see Shep's mother?

Heh. Shepard parents were always irrelevant to the story. It would have been kind of weird to see your mother when they show nothing in ME1 and ME2.
 
Yeah spacers are the only one who have parents, and we are never shown what they look like. There are problems enough with the flashbacks and not showing LIs from ME2 and whatnot.
 

Zomba13

Member
Yeah spacers are the only one who have parents, and we are never shown what they look like. There are problems enough with the flashbacks and not showing LIs from ME2 and whatnot.

Yeah, I get not showing her because I don't think we ever actually see her (only emails from her or hear things about her). And if Bioware were too lazy to make a flashback for LIs from ME2 then they definitely won't put the effort into Sheps mum.

EDIT: The Marauder Shields comic is up to part 14 now http://koobismo.deviantart.com/gallery/
 
Yeah, I get not showing her because I don't think we ever actually see her (only emails from her or hear things about her). And if Bioware were too lazy to make a flashback for LIs from ME2 then they definitely won't put the effort into Sheps mum.

EDIT: The Marauder Shields comic is up to part 14 now http://koobismo.deviantart.com/gallery/

They'd also have to like label it "Sheps mom" so you'd know wtf you're seeing in this flashback.
 

dokish

Banned
Not sure if old.

ME3yodawg.jpg
 
And then, you have to account for the custom Shepards. :|

"Shepard, you were adopted"

Well they did do that in DA2 with the Hawke family. But yeah, lot of work for a brief cameo that 2/3 the audience wouldn't see.

Though I did wish they would have done a lot more with the Shepard histories in the series than they did. Earthborn Shepard barely mentions that he grew up on Earth in ME3, the game where Earth is mentioned every 5 minutes.
 

rdrr gnr

Member
Sparky Clarkson has another critique up, this time about what he sees as the primary theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, one that on first reading at least I largely agree with. See what you think.
Another great piece. He actually references (well, secondarily) Kipling. Amazing, actual literature being properly utilized in a critique of contemporary ludonarratives? My God. aegis and Sessler could learn a thing or two. I will have to say that I disagree slightly with how he frames the actions of the Protheans. No doubt that Javik and his people would have subjugated, or at least, ruled over most other intelligent species. But, we can't presume that is the natural conclusion of all advanced species (at least to such a degree). If anything, I feel as though that dynamic could shift completely depending on which species has the upperhand. From what I can tell, humans (if modeled after Shepard); or Asari (if modeled after Liara); or Salarians (if modeled after Mordin), could in fact peacefully coexist with other evolving species. Sure, some conflict, rebellion, and war is inevitable, but I don't necessarily think it will result in this autocratical space empire run by species x. The Asari reaching the citadel first and offering to work together is proof of this. And given the vastness of the galaxy, resources don't necessarily have to be taken from inhabited planets. But again, it's a matter of perspective and I'm just offering the other side -- even if I personally agree with his sentiment.

Aside from my critique of the critique; his most important point is made emphatically. Cutting out Javik was a huge "fuck you" to everyone. I absolutely feel as though I missed out, and it has tarnished my opinion of the game even further.
 

Karl2177

Member
ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

I think I'm finally being indoctrinated. I think that's the only way Bioware can save their ass with the ending.
 
Sparky Clarkson has another critique up, this time about what he sees as the primary theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, one that on first reading at least I largely agree with. See what you think.

This is great. This is definitely a more difficult choice. Do I deny the future of other races to stay alive and keep my society in power or do I let it go and accept that we had a good run and its time give some one else a chance to see the stars? The reapers being galactic gardeners is...something I'm okay with.
 

DTKT

Member
Comparing the entire galaxy to trees needing to be pruned is kind of extreme. :|

Anyway, great read and I completly agree. It would have been a much more interesting ending than "We are synthetics created to protect you from a war with synthetics by killing everyone"

Good god...
 

Jintor

Member
I was struggling to articulate this earlier because the reaper kill everything to let new races rise actually fucking makes a kind of twisted sense when divorced from the nonsensical snythetics v organics bullshit. As Clarkson elaborates almost everything else in the story, major or minor, kind of feeds into it; seeing ME as almost a kind of racial/species-based political/military tension story elevates it beyond what it actually was. The strands are all there but at the last second Bioware swerved straight into a wall.

Fuck, it's even better than Dark Energy, which was only partially supported by parts of ME2 and was already done better by TTGL anyway.
 

- J - D -

Member
I'd be up for the Omega DLC if they bring back the Afterlife club theme remixed. But I guess it probably wouldn't happen since the station is overrun by Cerberus.
 
I was struggling to articulate this earlier because the reaper kill everything to let new races rise actually fucking makes a kind of twisted sense when divorced from the nonsensical snythetics v organics bullshit. As Clarkson elaborates almost everything else in the story, major or minor, kind of feeds into it; seeing ME as almost a kind of racial/species-based political/military tension story elevates it beyond what it actually was. The strands are all there but at the last second Bioware swerved straight into a wall.

Fuck, it's even better than Dark Energy, which was only partially supported by parts of ME2 and was already done better by TTGL anyway.
I like it better, too. But instead of all of this death and destruction, wouldn't it be better to help them ascend into reaper form?
 
Another great piece. He actually references (well, secondarily) Kipling. Amazing, actual literature being properly utilized in a critique of contemporary ludonarratives? My God. aegis and Sessler could learn a thing or two. I will have to say that I disagree slightly with how he frames the actions of the Protheans. No doubt that Javik and his people would have subjugated, or at least, ruled over most other intelligent species. But, we can't presume that is the natural conclusion of all advanced species (at least to such a degree). If anything, I feel as though that dynamic could shift completely depending on which species has the upperhand. From what I can tell, humans (if modeled after Shepard); or Asari (if modeled after Liara); or Salarians (if modeled after Mordin), could in fact peacefully coexist with other evolving species. Sure, some conflict, rebellion, and war is inevitable, but I don't necessarily think it will result in this autocratical space empire run by species x. The Asari reaching the citadel first and offering to work together is proof of this. And given the vastness of the galaxy, resources don't necessarily have to be taken from inhabited planets. But again, it's a matter of perspective and I'm just offering the other side -- even if I personally agree with his sentiment.

Aside from my critique of the critique; his most important point is made emphatically. Cutting out Javik was a huge "fuck you" to everyone. I absolutely feel as though I missed out, and it has tarnished my opinion of the game even further.

My impression I got while reading it (other than us possibly being like the Protheans) was that we are colonizing these worlds, affecting the way like evolves on those alien planets. We the various races are trying to colonize the best planets capable of sustaining life.
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
Heh. Shepard parents were always irrelevant to the story. It would have been kind of weird to see your mother when they show nothing in ME1 and ME2.
I could have sworn there was a conversation with Shep's mother in ME2.

Sparky Clarkson has another critique up, this time about what he sees as the primary theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, one that on first reading at least I largely agree with. See what you think.
That was a nice article, but I still feel that the Reapers make life futile. If there's a constant cap on each civilization, then they are stopping evolutionary progress. I don't care if species may or may not disrupt garden worlds. Old trees are not clipped by humans who want to let new trees grow, they are cut to be used as paper or other materials. Sentient life should be allowed to flourish and to destroy itself.

However, that's obviously not the way BW intended it to go. They wanted technological singularity at center table. But there's more to culling than preservation.
 

rdrr gnr

Member
My impression I got while reading it (other than us possibly being like the Protheans) was that we are colonizing these worlds, affecting the way like evolves on those alien planets. We the various races are trying to colonize the best planets capable of sustaining life.
I was under the impression that the Council has certain rules about interfering with young species; that they are to be left alone. I could never find the post, but it was in the first few dozen pages of this thread. And, again, colonization has its limits. It's plausible, even probable -- but not necessarily inevitable. And, again, if the species is young enough, we wouldn't even use the word colonization. If we found Earth only inhabited by apes, we'd say it was undiscovered land -- not inhabited by a species that will soon be capable of flight. I'm just arguing there is always a gray zone when discussing issues of free will. The ME universe would have to convince me that the culling is without question an overall force for good, then let me choose. It failed to do that convincingly.
 
I could have sworn there was a conversation with Shep's mother in ME2.


That was a nice article, but I still feel that the Reapers make life futile. If there's a constant cap on each civilization, then they are stopping evolutionary progress. I don't care if species may or may not disrupt garden worlds. Old trees are not clipped by humans who want to let new trees grow, they are cut to be used as paper or other materials. Sentient life should be allowed to flourish and to destroy itself.

However, that's obviously not the way BW intended it to go. They wanted technological singularity at center table. But there's more to culling than preservation.

It was an email:
From: Mom

So I have to find out my child is alive third-hand from the Alliance brass? Where the hell have you been?

I figure whatever you're doing is classified, likely part of your Spectre Operations. Just stay safe out there, and keep doing your mom proud. And sneak something through a secure channel next time.

Love,
Your mother, Captain Hannah
 
I was under the impression that the Council has certain rules about interfering with young species; that they are to be left alone. I could never find the post, but it was in the first few dozen pages of this thread. And, again, colonization has its limits. It's plausible, even probable -- but not necessarily inevitable. And, again, if the species is young enough, we wouldn't even use the word colonization. If we found Earth only inhabited by apes, we'd say it was undiscovered land -- not inhabited by a species that will soon be capable of flight. I'm just arguing there is always a gray zone when discussing issues of free will. The ME universe would have to convince me that the culling is without question an overall force for good, then let me choose. It failed to do that convincingly.

I'm sure they have a prime directive or something like that to prevent rampant colonization, but remember that some races aren't part of the Council anymore. I agree with you on everything else
 
I was under the impression that the Council has certain rules about interfering with young species; that they are to be left alone. I could never find the post, but it was in the first few dozen pages of this thread. And, again, colonization has its limits. It's plausible, even probable -- but not necessarily inevitable. And, again, if the species is young enough, we wouldn't even use the word colonization. If we found Earth only inhabited by apes, we'd say it was undiscovered land -- not inhabited by a species that will soon be capable of flight. I'm just arguing there is always a gray zone when discussing issues of free will. The ME universe would have to convince me that the culling is without question an overall force for good, then let me choose. It failed to do that convincingly.

They have these rules, but it seems at least the Salarian's don't give a damn. Since they were thinking about uplifting the Yahg despite the fact that the Yahg world is supposed to be exile due to their violent nature.

I still wonder how the Vorcha became space faring they are by all indications dumb as rocks. I remember that one solo Mission in ME2 has a derelict human vessel that encountered Vorcha before anybody knew about them so they weren't uplifted.
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
The ME universe would have to convince me that the culling is without question an overall force for good, then let me choose. It failed to do that convincingly.
There is no real argument, and that's why it doesn't try to convince us of anything. There's a problem -- technological singularity -- according to the Catalyst and we find that its current solution is invalid simply because Shepard stands before it. (Why?)

Here are the Catalyst's lines from a previous script. For some reason I like reading these, since they're just a slight bit different than what we get. I bet this is the part that they'll expand/tweak.

I am the Catalyst.
I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the less developed ones intact.
Just as we left your species when we were here last.
We harvested them. We brought order to the chaos.
We helped them ascend and become one of us, allowing new life to flourish, while preserving the old life forever in Reaper form.
Impossible. Organics will always trend to a point of technological singularity. A moment in time where their creations outgrow them.
Conflict is the only result, and extinction the consequence.
My solution creates a cycle which never reaches that point. Organic life is preserved.
-1
There is hope. Maybe more than you know.
-1
You have choice. More than you know.
The fact that you are standing here, the first organic to do so in countless cycles, proves this.
Just as it proves my solution is no longer valid.
A new solution must be found.
The Crucible has altered my function. I can't proceed.
I can only guide you in it's use.
Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.
It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down.
The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life.

This is an older version.
Take my hand.
-1
This is the Citadel. Where I live.
I am the Catalyst.
An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.
You must be quick. The war still rages out there.
-1
The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.
You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.
I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.
The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.
And the essence of each harvested civilzation is stored, forever, in Reaper form.
An important distinction.
An answer to a choice.
I can of harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.
But you must choose how to release it.
And you must decide the form it's energy will take.
The energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be destroyed.
As will much of the technology your kind rely on.
Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.
You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.
Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.
Correct.
There is another choice.
My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.
Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.
If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.
We, will become like you, and organic life will become like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.
But you must choose.
But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.
Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.
 

rozay

Banned
Reading that again, I think the ending would've been less offensive to me if it wasn't relayed by a magical version of the kid.
 
They have these rules, but it seems at least the Salarian's don't give a damn. Since they were thinking about uplifting the Yahg despite the fact that the Yahg world is supposed to be exile due to their violent nature.

I still wonder how the Vorcha became space faring they are by all indications dumb as rocks. I remember that one solo Mission in ME2 has a derelict human vessel that encountered Vorcha before anybody knew about them so they weren't uplifted.

Vorcha are not space-faring, they're like vermin. People landed on their planet for whatever reason and the vorcha hid in their ships.

Once word got around about them, the Blood Pack started going there regularly to round a bunch up and "beat them into soldiers".
 
Vorcha are not space-faring, they're like vermin. People landed on their planet for whatever reason and the vorcha hid in their ships.

Once word got around about them, the Blood Pack started going there regularly to round a bunch up and "beat them into soldiers".

Racist.
 

Antiochus

Member
One wonders instead of wasting their power to cull all the organics in order to prevent them from being destroyed by wayward synthetics, the Reapers could simply use their abilities to proactively defend the organics and destroy any nascent sentient synth races. For example, they could have sided with the Quarians four centuries ago by destroying the Geth and leaving the Quarians alive in Rannoch. Repeat as needed in the future whenever an AI or robot rears its ugly head and the organics in question need assistance. That would kill two birds with one stone.

But perhaps this is too intelligent and elegant for the Mssrs Hudsona and Walters to deploy
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
Reading that again, I think the ending would've been less offensive to me if it wasn't relayed by a magical version of the kid.
Indeed. I was going to write that, but I forgot. It would have been better with an entity that is not a child.

I also found these other lines. (They're not in order, Shep's responses are below. For some reason Reaper lines are there, too.)
[Vent kid]
No.
It's safe in here. The men can't get me.
I... the men took my mom.
(Loud explosion - The child gives a short yelp of fear.)
I want to go home.
-1
Yeah. My dad flies one of the big ones. [I wonder whose kid he originally was.]
Do you fly on the ships?
Is it fast? Does it have guns? Have you ever fought with it?
Are you gonna fight the Reapers? My dad is going to fight them.
He says the Reapers are bad. They don't like us because we're ogamic.
But we'll beat them right?
-1

[Reapers?]
We are not as mindless as you would presume.
We have been considering your existence since the dawn of your birth.
What is a eon for you, is but a moment for us.
We are the first born.

[This is probably Shep to the kid.]
It's okay. I'm here to help.
Take my hand. Let me get you out of here. [I just realized that they were going to use "take my hand" for the Catalyst's line.]
I'm a soldier. I'll keep the men away.
We'll find her. Together.
-1
Some pretty amazing ships out there, huh?
-1
I do. Mines not that big, though.
(smiles) Yes to all of those.
-1
Something like that. Yeah.
Yes. We will.
 
One wonders instead of wasting their power to cull all the organics in order to prevent them from being destroyed by wayward synthetics, the Reapers could simply use their abilities to proactively defend the organics and destroy any nascent sentient synth races. For example, they could have sided with the Quarians four centuries ago by destroying the Geth and leaving the Quarians alive in Rannoch. Repeat as needed in the future whenever an AI or robot rears its ugly head and the organics in question need assistance. That would kill two birds with one stone.

But perhaps this is too intelligent and elegant for the Mssrs Hudsona and Walters to deploy

I think the reapers opinion is basically once organics are advanced enough to create AI, they will keep doing it until they create AI that destroys them. So even if they destroy all geth, the "problem" isn't solved since organics know how to make more.

So the only "solution" is to kill everything advanced enough to create AI.
 

Zomba13

Member
Indeed. I was going to write that, but I forgot. It would have been better with an entity that is not a child.

I also found these other lines. (They're not in order, Shep's responses are below. For some reason Reaper lines are there, too.)

... So they DID have a plan to give the kid some lines and ave him do some things with Shep to get us to care about him? Why the fuck did they cut that?
 

rdrr gnr

Member
Well, Sparky's blog has inspired me to do some more substantive criticism. And by substantive I mean putting more than 5 seconds of thought into a forum post.

Are you familiar with those moral/ethical quandaries often posed in philosophy courses (play along if you want):

Scenario (A)
A runaway train is barreling down the tracks at uncontrollable speeds. The train approaches a fork, with you controlling the tracks. On one end of the track is a single railroad worker; on the other end there are three railroad repairmen. If you do nothing the train will kill the three men. If you choose to switch the fork, the train will kill only the lone repairmen, thereby saving the others. Do you do it?

Scenario (B)
A runaway train is barreling down the tracks at uncontrollable speeds. The train approaches a fork, with you controlling the tracks. But quickly you realize the switch is stuck and the train is destined to kill those three repairmen. The only way to save them is to grab a bystander and throw them onto the tracks. This will ensure the safety of the three repairmen. Do you do it?

Results: Most people answer yes to the first question, but no to the second question. But from a purely mathematical or Reaperian point of view -- if you would like -- the situations are equivalent. Kill one to save three. Kill now to save others later.

This is why the Catalyst fails on so many levels. We aren't presented with this kind of ethical quandary, because the game, writers, and ending sequence fail to convey this "moral equation." We spent 3 games feeling as though we can talk, battle, and seduce our way out of harsh inevitability. Yet, we are to believe these are our only choices. It's not just that Bioware failed to justify why we were given these choices, it's also about how they failed to convince us why we can ONLY be given these choices. It removes the human element, because all you can do is focus on the thematic inconsistency. Instead of a nuanced approach to this philosophical enigma, we are essentially presented with, "Reapers gonna reap. Synthetics gonna synth. Pick a color, asshole."
 

rozay

Banned
... So they DID have a plan to give the kid some lines and ave him do some things with Shep to get us to care about him? Why the fuck did they cut that?
keep dat shit high level

methinks focus testing/marketing/higher-ups felt that the opening with the trial and these extra dialogue sequences dragged too much and would turn people off. hence the rushed EXPLOSIONS EVERYWHERE introduction we got.
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
... So they DID have a plan to give the kid some lines and ave him do some things with Shep to get us to care about him? Why the fuck did they cut that?
It seems so. It's funny since someone mentioned that they should have had Shep find the kid's mom or something.
 

Zomba13

Member
It seems so. It's funny since someone mentioned that they should have had Shep find the kid's mom or something.

It would have been cool (well... you know) if you saw the mother/father and the kid run into the vent building and then it blow up when you get there but inside you just see the parent's corpse and the kid hiding in the vent, all scared and confused and then Shepard and Anderson take him with them. The kid would talk along the way, Shep could reassure him or be blunt and at the end of the Earth bit Shep would put him on a shuttle and it'd get blown up. That way, we'd have cared about him more (he'd have a name, a personality) and we'd feel responsible for his death (putting him on the shuttle that gets blown up).

But noooooooooooo we see him for all of 10 seconds in a vent being weird and then wandering around at the end before he stumbles into a shuttle and blows up.
 

DTKT

Member
keep dat shit high level

methinks focus testing/marketing/higher-ups felt that the opening with the trial and these extra dialogue sequences dragged too much and would turn people off. hence the rushed EXPLOSIONS EVERYWHERE introduction we got.

I honestly think that it has nothing to do with marketing. It's all about time. They just didn't have the time or the resources to craft a coherent ending.
 
... So they DID have a plan to give the kid some lines and ave him do some things with Shep to get us to care about him? Why the fuck did they cut that?
I wonder if someone could just delete the kid. You don't see him in the intro. You don't see him in the nightmares. And there's no Catalyst.

Well, Sparky's blog has inspired me to do some more substantive criticism.

Are you familiar with those moral/ethical quandaries often posed in philosophy courses (play along if you want):

Scenario (A)
A runaway train is barreling down the tracks at uncontrollable speeds. The train approaches a fork, with you controlling the tracks. On one end of the track is a single railroad worker; on the other end there are three railroad repairmen. If you do nothing the train will kill the three men. If you choose to switch the fork, the train will kill only the lone repairmen, thereby saving the others. Do you do it?

Scenario (B)
A runaway train is barreling down the tracks at uncontrollable speeds. The train approaches a fork, with you controlling the tracks. But quickly you realize the switch is stuck and the train is destined to kill those three repairmen. The only way to save them is to grab a bystander and throw them onto the tracks. This will ensure the safety of the three repairmen. Do you do it?

Results: Most people answer yes to the first question, but no to the second question. But from a purely mathematical or Reaperian point of view -- if you would like -- the situations are equivalent. Kill one to save three. Kill now to save others later.

This is why the Catalyst fails on so many levels. We aren't presented with this kind of ethical quandary, because the game, writers, and ending sequence fail to convey this "moral equation." We spent 3 games feeling as though we can talk, battle, and seduce our way out of harsh inevitability. Yet, we are to believe these are our only choices. It's not just that Bioware failed to justify why we were given these choices, it's also about how they failed to convince us why we can ONLY be given these choices. Instead of a nuanced approach to this philosophical enigma, we are essentially presented with, "Reapers gonna reap. Synthetics gonna synth. Pick a color, asshole."

At first, I felt that they were the same, but that bystander was probably just minding his own business while the repairman knows the dangers of working on a railroad, so I went with A.

As for the rest, I completely agree and it's kind of what I expected how the series would end if there had to be a choice. A good moral quandary where the choices are both right and wrong depending on your perspective. It could have been possible, but with the writing ability displayed at Bioware, I don't think they could have pulled it off.
 
Top Bottom