TigerUppercut
Member
I'm sure it's already been stated but with the super resentful tones Jacob was taking towards you in every conversation it would have been far better for him to be in the Kai Leng spot than robo ninja.
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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow
- Thread starter Patryn
- Start date
I'm sure it's already been stated but with the super resentful tones Jacob was taking towards you in every conversation it would have been far better for him to be in the Kai Leng spot than robo ninja.
no because shepard still dies in those destroy ending. if you don't have enough allies for harbinger to crispify he hits you harder and death is just inevitable.
you need best ending levels to get shepard to survive.
under indoc it goes:
worst possible:
guaranteed death
mid range:
indoctrinated or dead
best possible:
indoctrinated or alive on earth.
HadesGigas
Member
What would Shepard do when he survives though? He's on some mystery secret part of the Citidel with nothing to eat or drink. Maybe he can figure a way to get the magic elevator to work then he can survive by eating the remains of all those dead humans...
I was only kidding. There have been plenty of solid refutations of why Indoctrination Theory doesn't work and why the ending would still be terrible if Indoctrination Theory was true. This thread does move fast so I can't isolate those posts. I had a response that I felt as rather good -- of course -- but it's buried at least 30 pages deep at this point.
Some refutations include how Indoctrination was written in, then out of the plot; confirmation bias; Indoctrination Theory still avoids choice; why didn't Bioware clarify Indoctrination after outcry; and much, much more. For me, it boiled down to two options: Either Bioware's writers are absolutely brilliant and have outsmarted us all, or it's another case of terrible writing. Which is more plausible?
valentine71
Banned
So, i am curious about one thing. I was watching the character's ''final words'' on youtube and noticed that i had both romance kind final words from both Ashley and Liara. Is it normal? Possible? Or could it be a glitch?
most indoc theories have shepard still on earth having never made it to the beam.
Dylan
LightofRohan
Member
When you do absolutely horrible, low EMS/Rep ect. ect. you only get to choose the Red ending. Which I believe is the key to you breaking the reaper control, because you are essentially going against the "right" choice, the one they want you to make. Which snaps you out of it. If you choose the others (Blue/Green), then I feel you are permanently under reaper control. Although they don't show you "waking up", I feel it's still there in the Complete Worst ending.
Also; WTF! Liara's sex scene is SO much better then dumb Tali's. Ugh! I was trying so hard to decide between them (they both wanted me) and I ended up going with Tali so I could hopefully see her face... but she was really distant in ME3 and the "sex scene" was complete trash.
Liara's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8PJLpsTqmM
Yes, of course, my mistake. I knew that, but, you know...
HadesGigas
Member
So then what would happen next? Shepard wakes up, is still near death and indoctrinated, the reapers still exist. Does he just walk to the beam "again" assuming it's still there?
Why not just go on youtube? You obviously won't care since the game doesn't mean anything to you. It'll just be a dumb kid and some random colors.
But then imagine if you did care.
Most counter-arguments of the Indoctrination Theory are "bioware can't write that subtle" or "they took out gameplay were you lose full control" as if that means the idea of Indoctrination is gone. Weak and weak. Indoctrination Theory is vaild.
Yes, I didn't care enough to go to YouTube.Why not just go on youtube? You obviously won't care since the game doesn't mean anything to you. It'll just be a dumb kid and some random colors.
But then imagine if you did care.
yeah pretty much. i STILL haven't seen a strong counter-argument using evidence that disputes this theory convenient video form.
we're talking about 9/11 right???
Convincing argument as always, Minion.
We're talking about the Matrix movies
Dang, I'd like to read some of those and see what I think. Perhaps I'll have to go back through and see if I can find some.
Its extremely hard for me to believe that suddenly they just had bad writing at the end, unless there were other factors like time, being forced, etc. Even those considered though, there are just too many odd things that line up for it to be just bad writing.
If it that its "brilliant", its brilliant in that its not obvious to us. Looking at it, it deep, but fairly simple. They know what indoctrinated is so make some oddities and indoctrination type things, go back and put the boy in (wouldn't be hard as its just dream sequences and a bit at the beginning). Indoctrination was a possibility in my mind even before getting the game since its reapers and we've seen it since the start of the first game.
Why would they do this though? Simple. DLC. EA loves DLC, and ME2 had loads. At the end of the game it implies more will be coming with that odd data pad bit. Adding DLC mid game after people have completed it would be kind of pointless, and not many would go back for it, not that I agree they'd go back for ending DLC. So, they do this, make us think, make us speculate, then BAM, DLC that picks up with Shephard on Earth in rubble. Maybe you broke the indoctrination, maybe you didn't. From here we'll branch out into other paths and get the endings we wanted.
These thoughts come from the indoctrination vid and Paul Tassi on Forbes. It seems to make sense for me in such a way, that there is no way they'd get that lucky from bad writing. I guess we'll see.
The sad part is I think I am OK with this as I just want a better ending. :/ I do feel thought that based on what we have now, and whatever they do to handle the situation, Bioware has kind of fucked itself over and tarnished its name.
Edit: I'm tired. Sorry for the rambling, hopefully it make sense. I'm sure its already been said though so I doubt I needed to say it again.
i dunno, Shepard is recovered and takes part in the general retreat of hammer forces leading into a second big push with the aim of taking out harbinger who still guards the portal while part of your squad infiltrates the beam, with the survival of kiriahe, mordin, samara, recruitment of asari commandos and STG all contributing to the survival of your squadmates on the citadel, meanwhile Shepard throws it down with harbinger while hammer and strategic parts of the fleet deal with the other sovereign class reapers we were told were coming but never showed up. stuff like recruiting the korgan, the primes, the rachni, Cerberus fighters etc contributing to the fight against the sovereign class reapers on earth.
victory on earth gives the fleet enough time to protect the crucible against the diminished reaper fleet which in turn gives enough time for your squad to take the citadel. plug in crucible, trigger red space magic, keep mass relays intact, cue bunch of cgi and/or ingame cutscenes of destruction, fallen allies, living allies, last stands, krogan discovering that the genophage is still around, consequences of the geth/quarian thing, etc all of which built piecemeal from your decisions across the trilogy.
Luna, you have me writing fanfiction now...
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Nah, in the inevitable retake Omega DLC, she'll make it out to Omega due to some 'new development' before the citadel gets moved, and you as Shepard accompany her because 'no one fucks with Aria.'
This is the fun part, there's lots of possibilities and options for redemption. Somehow make my choices matter more and show more of what the races are doing and how me getting them there was important.
Maybe there could be endings based off if you became fully indoctrinated or not. If he's not indoctrinated, continue or revise the plan, battle ensues some more, then show what happens after. If he is indoctrinated, perhaps it shows the demise of Earth and the races and how its essentially your fault.
Dang, we're back to the Indoctrination Theory again... I was kinda liking the direction this thread was heading before...
It's like some people have never heard of Occam's Razor.
Let's consider the facts one more time for those of you just joining us:
So, what is easier to accept? That Bioware didn't have a clue how to end the series and wrote a bad conclusion, not realizing it would piss people off, or that they concocted some brilliant, underhanded and subversive non-ending that only a fraction of people would even figure out through mental gymnastics?
It's like some people have never heard of Occam's Razor.
Let's consider the facts one more time for those of you just joining us:
- Bioware was rushing to finish the ending up to the last minute (November).
- They started some work on an indoc ending, but explicitly abandoned it.
- The script leak from months ago never mentioned an indoctrination in the background to the scenes.
- Casey Hudson's notes scribbled on that paper in the Final Hours article seems to rule out there was indocrtination.
- The series has never been subtle, and we've always taken what it says at face value. This isn't LOST or anything that's ever required "looking for clues" and "solving mysteries."
- An indoc ending is STILL a non-ending, and doesn't solve anything.
- If true, an indoc ending, means that Bioware risked their reputation on something that must be corrected with DLC and recognized by a tiny minority of supposedy astute, super-analytical fans. Meaning that a small fraction of people would get it, and the rest of their expanded audience would be alienated by it. Y'know, the expanded audience EA has been so desperate to claim.
- Bioware, in two weeks now, has never quelled the anger about the ending by even hinting that the fans "didn't get it," despite multiple opportunities to do so.
So, what is easier to accept? That Bioware didn't have a clue how to end the series and wrote a bad conclusion, not realizing it would piss people off, or that they concocted some brilliant, underhanded and subversive non-ending that only a fraction of people would even figure out through mental gymnastics?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
The third option - there's actually a Mass Effect movie coming out this summer that gives us the true ending. Directed by Brett Ratner.
So there are things worse than this ending...
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well, it could be a "SyFy Original" movie!
So Ratner will direct ME2 and ME3 then?
I think my biggest gripe with the ending is that the final revelation about the reaper's purpose isn't grand enough. They tried to take it to a cosmic scale, but it's ultimately too tame to really evoke the sense of wonder good space opera sci-fi should evoke. That and the fact that the revelation doesn't really make sense.
So they reapers are just destroying advanced civilisations in order to prevent synthetics from inevitably taking over and completely destroying organic life. Uh, they're synthetic themselves and they've already taken over but haven't destroyed all organic life. And why would synthetics ultimately destroy organics anyway? They could isolate themselves instead, become advanced enough to travel to other galaxies. Why is the war between organics and synthetics inevitable?
The fact that the reaper's plan is also somehow proven univocally ineffective really bothers me too. They should have made the whole final revelation in a way that there's an option of agreeing that the reaper solution really is the best option in the long run, but of course they couldn't really do that when the problem isn't grand enough. And how does the fact that Shepard reached the star-child and attached the Crucible prove the reaper solution no longer works anyway? They were winning the war, weren't they? Just kill Shepard, destroy the crucible and the cycle could have continued.
In my opinion a lot of the problems people have with the ending could have been prevented if Bioware would have just come up with a grander and more compelling motivation for the reapers, a larger scale problem than organics vs. synthetics. As it is now, it just comes off as lazy and half-assed. Hell, rip off
if you can't come up with anything yourself, that would have still been a much better ending and presented more compelling choices than what we got.
So they reapers are just destroying advanced civilisations in order to prevent synthetics from inevitably taking over and completely destroying organic life. Uh, they're synthetic themselves and they've already taken over but haven't destroyed all organic life. And why would synthetics ultimately destroy organics anyway? They could isolate themselves instead, become advanced enough to travel to other galaxies. Why is the war between organics and synthetics inevitable?
The fact that the reaper's plan is also somehow proven univocally ineffective really bothers me too. They should have made the whole final revelation in a way that there's an option of agreeing that the reaper solution really is the best option in the long run, but of course they couldn't really do that when the problem isn't grand enough. And how does the fact that Shepard reached the star-child and attached the Crucible prove the reaper solution no longer works anyway? They were winning the war, weren't they? Just kill Shepard, destroy the crucible and the cycle could have continued.
In my opinion a lot of the problems people have with the ending could have been prevented if Bioware would have just come up with a grander and more compelling motivation for the reapers, a larger scale problem than organics vs. synthetics. As it is now, it just comes off as lazy and half-assed. Hell, rip off
Revelation Space
HadesGigas
Member
Web series starring Felicia Day.
LightofRohan
Member
I'm pretty sure none of us that know/believe the indoc theory to be correct aren't doing it to maintain some sort of love for the story. You said it yourself, it's a dumb movie either way. But looking at the game w/ no outside connection, it's pretty clear. Relying on few outside evidence to disprove it is not necessarily the best reasoning.
The hell? Context is everything, dude.
And it isn't "clear." Nothing that takes a 20 minute Youtube video to explain is "clear."
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Felicia Day as Tali.
Haunted
Member
Many people think the ending is disappointing. Like, franchise-destroying levels of bad. You don't really need the details.
In an alternate universe, Bioware would have been brave, bold, and stupid enough to pull an Indoc ending. But even within that alt-verse, it could not have been handled as post-game dlc. It'd be the post-credits sequence.
Ive never believed in the indoc theory, but Could you just imagine if the Indoc were real and instead of the shitty stargazer scene, we actually got control of Shepard again to kick the shit out of Harbinger and activate the true Crucible?
FUCK, I'm sad again.
Ive never believed in the indoc theory, but Could you just imagine if the Indoc were real and instead of the shitty stargazer scene, we actually got control of Shepard again to kick the shit out of Harbinger and activate the true Crucible?
FUCK, I'm sad again.
LightofRohan
Member
Yea but you are looking at the evidence provided from different sources to make that judgement. Who know's how much scribbly pieces of paper lay in Hudson's teared stained office. And he's a weird guy... there's no telling what he will do/decides. So the most reliable source of reasoning is looking at what is provided; the game. And most of that is pointing towards indoc.
That's the thing, none of your crew is on the Normandy. Before you meet up with Anderson, you see and get to talk to all your crew on the ground. Joker must be a big asshole to pick up everyone besides you.
To be fair, the games add stuff from the book. TIM never existed until he was in the book. If you never read the book than TIM came out of the blue also.
BioWare just screwed him up. Leng was actually pretty cool in Retribution. He wasn't some anime villain ripoff. I didn't read Deception but that guy posted that's where they got the material for him.
So sad. It's like they went out of there way to shit on everything that Drew did. He setup the Reapers to be badass, he setup TIM to be badass. One ended up being a child's toy and the other ends up getting the Saren treatment.
I'm surprised they accurately portrayed Kahlee Sanders and her relationship with Anderson.
It's worse than that.
I couldn't even play a video game for about 5 days after I beat the game. It was just so bad I didn't even want to play video games anymore. With all these video game "journalists" giving it perfect scores, I felt it would set a precedent for absolutely shit endings that make the rest of the series/game irrelevant.
Saying things like BEST ENDING EVER and then G4-like reviews where some guy goes on thesaurus.com and picks random words to sound smart.. I just lost hope for video games.
LightofRohan
Member
You're telling me that relying on background material of developer intent to form a logical flow of events is "bad reasoning?" While the IT faithful piece together circumstantial evidence like "Shepard wakes up in rubble that looks like London" and extrapolate that it means Bioware made fifteen minutes of the game have no narrative purpose whatsover, just so Shepard can have a dream sequence that he can only fight off if he has the best war assets possible, which, by the way, still goes unconcluded because it needs DLC to properly finish it.
Give me a break.
that is fucking terrifying.
Why would indoctrination explain that?
There's nothing wrong with Cerberus. They did all of this in Retribution. Illusive Man makes it pretty clear he wants to do that at the end of ME2. A man hungry for power wouldn't stop at anything to achieve it. That makes sense.
LightofRohan
Member
Yea, it's completely absurd they left it off that way... that's... why a lot of us, are mad? I'm not arguing it's the best ending. No need to get all worked up over this, I'm just stating a different reasoning view.
It's like how most works of art are looked at (I'm not calling this a work of art btw). Do you derive meaning from the painting? Or do you piece together what you know about the artist to make an assumption? It's a bit of both, some would argue a particular way. But currently, I'm not sure what the hell happened at Bioware -- and the most compelling thing I can go off of is the "finished product".
Honestly, I think it could go either way with what is happening in their heads right now at the studio... but this is part of the problem. This has turned into a mess.
BabeSlayer
Member
I think more people approve of congress than the ME3 ending and that is saying something....
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Kill it with
Actually, this would have been kinda cool, albeit really hard to work out plot-wise. TIM figuring out that Shepard was indoctrinated while himself slowly succumbing to indoctrination/powerlust would have actually been kinda cool.
Also, what's the point of concluding the trilogy with Shep's death only to concede to 'something' and leave the destroy ending with Shep still alive? And why only destroy? It either points to ending DLC, a mere throwaway, or hints for ME4.
Even though I no longer believe in the IT, I would rather have 15 minutes of the game have no purpose than over 100 hours have no purpose.
Also, if it was true, the DLC could be something like if you chose to Control you're indoctrinated and you end up helping the Reapers win, and if you chose Destroy, you become the first person to fight off indoctrination and you help finish the Reapers. Putting your war assets to use instead of it just contributing to space magic.
Shake Appeal
Member
Great post.
Also, there are individual things within the theory that have been explained away: TIM and his new face, the "reaper tentacles", how Hackett knows Shepard is aboard, Shepard's left-side wound, etc.
I hope Bioware run with it, but they did not intend it.