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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow

U

UnluckyKate

Member
Why is the game so easy on Insanity ?

In ME2, every enemy had a protection form. Not here.

Also, why Atlas pilots always explode when I shoot then after I broke the front shield ?
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
bigace33 said:
Games are mostly nonsensical and fantasy in nature, they rarely tackle issues based on reality, and are usually limited in scope by the lack of skilled writing, and hardware limitations. Out of all the mediums, gaming would be the least likely to be considered art. I think ME3 has pushed the genre forward tenfold. Like a poster said earlier, this is the reason we are so passionate about the flop ending. It has taken this long for a game to draw out genuine emotion from it's users. Movies have done this for ages, music has done this for ages, even art pieces have done this. Games have not been taken serious enough for people to convey real emotions.
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Man, art has no objective definition. It doesn't. There is nothing to 'consider' in regards to something being defined as art. This is a fact. This is a historic precedent set by the term, which is in itself vague and relatively meaningless beyond "something somebody created". You're still being subjective about the whole situation, like we all are. You felt a certain way and so did others. But not everybody did. And what you've found in Mass Effect others have found elsewhere, even if this is a first time for you.

The only reason people debate over artistic definition is for approval. Approval from the high-brow crowd, who must be taken seriously. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit what gaming is or isn't? Who gives a shit what is 'art'? Why does it need to be taken seriously in the first place? Who is this authority granting seriousness and why do we care?

Rather than argue what is and isn't art, trying to define an entire genre under an already meaningless title, we should be dissecting the values, qualities and structure of an individual piece of creative work to see if, alone, and without comparison to anything else, we can find meaningful and fabled artistic integrating.

Or, TLDR: There's no such thing as gaming is/isn't art. Instead, there is individual judgement of each game, and what it offers alone.


Derrick01 said:
The point I keep trying to hammer in is who cares if they're considered art or not? Does it change your enjoyment if old people who don't play start considering them meaningful?

I don't know, most games that a lot of people would consider art I consider to be painfully boring. Like the team Ico games and the guys who are behind Journey and Flower.
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"Art" as a definition of any importance doesn't exist. It's exactly the same as "trendy". It exists only in the eyes of people with self-appointed authority and importance, hoping others will subscribe to their authority and importance, looking for their judgement on subjects that don't concern them.
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
EatChildren said:
Or, TLDR: There's no such thing as gaming is/isn't art. Instead, there is individual judgement of each game, and what it offers alone.
Click to expand...

Thank you, yes.

Of course this leads to the problem of what happens when massive corporations try to set up artistic movie trilogies in game form in a bid for media validation, while simultaneously trying to turn them into platforms for extra content directly altering the work itself, two strategies that are intellectually incompatible. Mass Effect is just the first such trilogy to simultaneously make people care enough and fail enough at reconciling those two aspects that the disconnect becomes obvious.
 
D

DTKT

Member
After a week now, it just dawned on me why the ending is so bad and why people so passionately hate it. And I'm not talking about plot holes, limited choice, etc. And this is something that I think fundamentally bothers even the people who like the ending.
Shepherd didn't beat the Reapers. Shepherd didn't do anything. The Reapers did everything. Shepherd became passive in his/her own story. And that effectively removed all the conflict from the game.
Shepherd was given permission and even assisted by the Reapers to both reach and activate the catalyst/crucible. Shepherd was even used by the Reapers to do it.
So the reason the ending feels so different from the rest of the game is the fact it's no longer Shepherd's story. As soon as the light elevator rises up, it's the Starchild's/Reaper's story, as he/they are the ones being proactive in the end.
So, I'm sorry, but a basic and fundamental rule of story telling was broken. Characters, especially protagonists, should be active and not passive/reactive. And just clarifying the ending will not address this issue. There needs to be a rewrite. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Quality post.
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
B_Rik_Schitthaus said:
Is there any reason why we only see the males of so many of the alien races?
Click to expand...

They're all in a galactic space kitchen cooking for Sword and Hammer.

Bioware is flat out lazy and had no clue what to do with females. They stated multiple times they had no idea how to create a female Turian.

Tajin said:
The only female we don't see are the Turians.
Click to expand...

They were the ones we should have seen the most as they are part of the armed services. Females in both Salarian and Krogan society are highly desired for reproductive purposes.
 
bigace33

bigace33

Member
EatChildren said:
Man, art has no objective definition. It doesn't. There is nothing to 'consider' in regards to something being defined as art. This is a fact. This is a historic precedent set by the term, which is in itself vague and relatively meaningless beyond "something somebody created". You're still being subjective about the whole situation, like we all are. You felt a certain way and so did others. But not everybody did. And what you've found in Mass Effect others have found elsewhere, even if this is a first time for you.

The only reason people debate over artistic definition is for approval. Approval from the high-brow crowd, who must be taken seriously. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit what gaming is or isn't? Who gives a shit what is 'art'? Why does it need to be taken seriously in the first place? Who is this authority granting seriousness and why do we care?

Rather than argue what is and isn't art, trying to define an entire genre under an already meaningless title, we should be dissecting the values, qualities and structure of an individual piece of creative work to see if, alone, and without comparison to anything else, we can find meaningful and fabled artistic integrating.

Or, TLDR: There's no such thing as gaming is/isn't art. Instead, there is individual judgement of each game, and what it offers alone.
Click to expand...
Nah, gaming has no equivalent to something like the Godfather, or Lonesome Dove. These things are works of art. As good as Chrono Trigger or FF7 is, they are still well below standard of being considered art. It's fine for someone not to care whether something is art or not, I enjoyed Bruce Lee: Quest of the Dragon, I'm just laying out some parameters that gaming has not evolved enough to really be in that conversation. Like anything else, there are always exceptions.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
EmCeeGramr said:
Thank you, yes.

Of course this leads to the problem of what happens when massive corporations try to set up artistic movie trilogies in game form in a bid for media validation, while simultaneously trying to turn them into platforms for extra content directly altering the work itself, two strategies that are intellectually incompatible. Mass Effect is just the first such trilogy to simultaneously make people care enough and fail enough at reconciling those two aspects that the disconnect becomes obvious.
Click to expand...

Right, and this is where we're quickly reminded that the corporate word does not mix well with the creative one. They both have drastically different priorities and goals, and when one is trying to dictate the other, the other almost always finds itself going against it's inherent values.

bigace33 said:
Nah, gaming has no equivalent to something like the Godfather, or Lonesome Dove. These things are works of art. As good as Chrono Trigger or FF7 is, they are still well below standard of being considered art. It's fine for someone not to care whether something is art or not, I enjoyed Bruce Lee: Quest of the Dragon, I'm just laying out some parameters that gaming has not evolved enough to really be in that conversation. Like anything else, there are always exceptions.
Click to expand...

You've told me literally nothing in this post except that you have opinions on some stuff. I cannot and will not buy any argument that gaming does or does not fit into a conversation about art because art, as a term, has no authority or value. Again, as I said, the argument is always about the definition of art, even when people don't realise that is what they're arguing.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
DTKT said:
Money and time.
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I Bioware thinks the females of any species should have breasts and lipstick.

I'm serious.

They’re all males in the game. We usually try to avoid the females because what do you do with a female Turian? Do you give her breasts? What do you do? Do you put lipstick on her? There’s actually some of the concept artists will draw lipstick on the male one and they’ll say “Hey, it’s done” and we’ll go “No, can you take this serious?”
Click to expand...

At least they know it would look ridiculous, but there are ways to show the differences between males and females without the use of mammaries and makeup
 
E

Empty Space

Member
Tajin said:
The only female we don't see are the Turians.
Click to expand...

Let's be honest that Female Krogan was a male Krogan model with some much clothes over it that it became impossible to tell. They've been doing the same trick with female Salarians for the last three games. Theres was also no Batarian, Volus, Prothean, or Drell Females.
 
F

Fimbulvetr

Member
heliosRAzi said:
I Bioware thinks the females of any species should have breasts and lipstick.
Click to expand...

Species with non-dimorphous genders? What are those?

For the record, the EU portrays Turians as mostly non-dimorphous between genders(i.e. the females look almost exactly like the males).
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
EatChildren said:
You've told me literally nothing in this post except that you have opinions on some stuff. I cannot and will not buy any argument that gaming does or does not fit into a conversation about art because art, as a term, has no authority or value. Again, as I said, the argument is always about the definition of art, even when people don't realise that is what they're arguing.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying and art as a term is very subjective. I do think though that are some rough outlines that people use to define art that is relatively common. For example I would say most modernists would say it's more the intent of the artist that defines whether something is art rather the work itself.

BackdoorBeauty said:
ME2 was hard to top. Best game in the trilogy.
Click to expand...

Wow that started earlier than expected.
 
R

Rabbit Lord

Member
Tajin said:
The drell don't count. Bioware was so lazy that when Thane is in a hospital bed dying he's still wearing his leather armor.
Click to expand...

That really bothered me, they do a really good job of creating the world and those that live in it and then drop the ball in moments like that. Takes you right out of the world and reminds you your watching a cut scene.
 
D

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
Question - I initially played the final mission with less than 5000 EMS (because I hadn't touched multiplayer), and now that I've gotten my EMS over 5000 I would like to replay it to see the different ending. Do I have to replay the entire Earth mission, or can I just choose "Restart Level" to end up right back on the Citadel and watch the cutscenes?
 
T

Tajin

Banned
ilnadmy said:
Question - I initially played the final mission with less than 5000 EMS (because I hadn't touched multiplayer), and now that I've gotten my EMS over 5000 I would like to replay it to see the different ending. Do I have to replay the entire Earth mission, or can I just choose "Restart Level" to end up right back on the Citadel and watch the cutscenes?
Click to expand...

Just youtube it. It's nothing but a color swap.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Jarmel said:
I get what you're saying and art as a term is very subjective. I do think though that are some rough outlines that people use to define art that is relatively common. For example I would say most modernists would say it's more the intent of the artist that defines whether something is art rather the work itself.
Click to expand...

They're still rough outlines, and based on your example, we still end up judging the artistic merit of work on an individual basis, which is what I'm getting at.
 
E

Empty Space

Member
heliosRAzi said:
If turians are non-dimorphus, then why don't we meet any females?
Click to expand...

Because they have hair/feathers and that shit is hard to model. I don't know, but I'm betting thats what one of their artist said when they asked them to do it.

pdbzf.jpg
 
V

Vamphuntr

Member
ilnadmy said:
Question - I initially played the final mission with less than 5000 EMS (because I hadn't touched multiplayer), and now that I've gotten my EMS over 5000 I would like to replay it to see the different ending. Do I have to replay the entire Earth mission, or can I just choose "Restart Level" to end up right back on the Citadel and watch the cutscenes?
Click to expand...

You have to start again from the Cerberus base to see the changes. It seems the game checks your EMS score only when you launch the assault on Chronos Station.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Empty Space said:
Because they have hair/feathers and that shit is hard to model. I don't know, but I'm betting thats what one of their artist said when they asked them to do it.

http://i.imgur.com/pdbzf.jpg
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Is that space-racist Kai Leng?

Also, humans in the Mass Effect universe are such pieces of shit. Somehow they're also the most "genetically superior" species in the galaxy as well. Maybe the Reapers were trying to save the galaxy from humanity all along.
 
E

Empty Space

Member
firehawk12 said:
Is that space-racist Kai Leng?

Also, humans in the Mass Effect universe are such pieces of shit. Somehow they're also the most "genetically superior" species in the galaxy as well. Maybe the Reapers were trying to save the galaxy from humanity all along.
Click to expand...

This was supposed to take place during the first contact war I didn't even realize what the human was saying till people mentioned it. In hindsight I probably picked the best picture ever.
 
N

NightAntilli

Banned
bigace33 said:
I'll give you that, but the writing, music, and art are all ham fisted for the most part, meaning, they are almost always of low quality with a few exceptions. I can strum a few tunes on a piano, but that doesn't make it art. Games still have a long way to go for that kind of respect. There are a few games that break the mold, but not the genre as a whole.
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Well sure, there is definitely room for improvement. But games are still relatively new as a medium. How old are they? Like, 30 years or so? We're still just at the beginning of the possibilities. Pretty much all other arts have had centuries to be developed, and even then, they were often criticized. For example, the music of the biggest composers in history was not seen as art at the time, and yet we do so today. I guess that someday, gaming history will be seen as the development of one of the most significant arts for humanity. Not to mention writing story is completely different than in other arts. And I completely disagree regarding the music and art.. But this is long enough of a rant already so I'll kind of leave that explanation aside.

The only games that possibly can not be considered art, are the simulators, although even that has quite a gray area surrounding it.. The rest, I'd say are all art, albeit still in primitive shoes.

In the case of BioWare, I'd definitely consider their games art. If you look at art in general, it's supposed to convey some sort of emotion through a certain presentation, be it through visuals, sound or whatever ele. BioWare is one of the best in doing that, be it positive or negative emotion, intended or unintended. They incorporate art within art, like different races having a different architecture and stuff like that.. How one can not consider that art is beyond me..

And I guess I'll leave it at this, since this is kind of off-topic..
 
H

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
sTeLioSco said:
Mass Effect 3 Ending Deconstruction

It should be obvious, but this post is going to be complete and total spoilers for Mass Effect 3. Also, most of what I say here is just a re-hash of points that have been made elsewhere. The problems with the ending are very obvious, and I don’t think it takes a keen analysis or a deep understanding of the Mass Effect lore to uncover these issues.

The truth is, my nitpicking skills are wasted on this, and I don’t have a lot to add to the conversation. I’m writing this mostly to get it off my chest.

And to deflect the likely objections: Yes, the rest of the game is often quite good, and there were many “fanservice” moments where players got things they had been hoping / waiting for since the original game. But right now we’re talking about the ending to Mass Effect 3, which I rank as the worst ending I’ve ever personally played. Worse than KOTOR 2. Worse than Neverwinter Nights 2. It fails thematically, it fails logically, it fails at basic coherence, and it fails to be consistent with what has come before.

I know it’s childish and melodramatic when fans say, “This new thing has RUINED this series FOREVER!” I don’t want to go that far, but I will say it’s done a lot of damage. I just finished a re-play of Mass Effect 1, and it’s shocking just how many things seem stupid, contrived, inconsistent, or pointless now that I know how they turn out.

And no, I’m not a believer in the “indoctrination theory“. I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don’t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it.

another article,full here:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=15395#more-15395
Click to expand...

God, fuck the crucible. How can you write yourself into a corner so bad? Why would you not plan things out during 2?
 
O

Omega

Banned
BackdoorBeauty said:
ME2 was hard to top. Best game in the trilogy.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm in a very small minority.

I hated ME2. I thought it was a boring third person shooter with a terrible story. The loyalty missions were boring and the entire game was just pure filler.

The only redeeming quality to me was that it had the best squadmates but it's a game I would never play again. I got my 1355 gamerscore and that game is never going back into my Xbox.
 
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