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[GuardianE]

People tend to discredit the indoctrination theory because

1) It gives Bioware more credit than they deserve. It assumes they planned this out from the beginning when Mac Walters is a hack and when...

2) We have proof from previous statements and that ipad app that the ending we got is what they intended. They wanted a way to permanently close the series, or at least make it incredibly tough to make a sequel. The main Bioware team wants to move on to other stuff.

I can definitely see point 1, given other aspects of ME3, but I wouldn't discredit the theory just based on that.

I didn't know about the ipad app or any previous statements. At the same time, hasn't Bioware said that they were planning on supporting ME3 for a long time post-release?

Nope, nope, nope.

Anderson dies no matter what. He can be saved from execution if you're used either Paragon and/or Renegade options in every single one of your prior conversations with the TIM. You talk TIM into committing suicide. But he still dies after talking with Shep. But that stuff has nothing to do with the EMS.

Ah, okay. I didn't know TIM would kill himself. Is that if you don't press the Renegade Trigger during the conversation?

I was kinda confused about the Reputation system in this game. If you gain +Reputation, how is that attributed to Paragon or Renegade?... and if you max out, does it no longer register any Paragon or Renegade points? That seems kind of silly.

 

[Myomoto]

and for the "art" thing.

SOME games are art.

Bioware games will NEVER be art.

The Zaed and Kasumi DLC technically changed the ending of ME2 (access to different cut-scenes/choices).

Also, art? REALLY? Several hundred people worked on this piece of software, and you're honestly trying to pass that off as 'art' rather than a feat of writing, design (both gameplay and graphical) and software engineering on the level of a small construction project?

 

[Patryn]

Has anyone brought up the idea of Commercial Art? Isn't that catering to the whims of the customer?

 

[KingItachi]

Nope, nope, nope.

Anderson dies no matter what. He can be saved from execution if you're used either Paragon and/or Renegade options in every single one of your prior conversations with the TIM. You talk TIM into committing suicide. But he still dies after talking with Shep. But that stuff has nothing to do with the EMS.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Hellsing321]

Also, what does your EMS actually change for the final confrontation?

Basically nothing. If you had a high enough EMS when you pick the destroy option you see Shepard take half a breath at the end in some rubble. If you have a very low EMS when you pick destroy you see Earth become a charred rock from the explosion.

 

[danwarb]

with 5000+ EMS Anderson can be saved and if you choose destroy option you see shep gasp for breath in a scene

Shepard resisted indoctrination and somehow managed to survive that explosion.

They could add a scene with Geth Prime digging Shepard out of the rubble to the destroy ending. That'd make it even more confusing but obvious that Space Kid was making stuff up, if he was.

Those Normandy and old guy scenes in all three endings make it clear they decided all three options were real in the end though.

 

[bigace33]

Please don't start this "which games are art?" bullshit. That debate is a plague on this industry.

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

 

[Mattiator]

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

I certainly agree with this part
Not so much the rest..

 

[Empty Space]

Has anyone brought up the idea of Commercial Art? Isn't that catering to the whims of the customer?

Like the stuff Olly Moss does with all those poster? Inconceivable!

 

[Trey]

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

You don't exist.

 

[danwarb]

Games are art like popular music is art. And movies.

 

[GuardianE]

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

Every artistic medium starts as "low art". Gaming has had the unfortunate luxury of evolving faster in technical capabilities than in source material and ambitious narrative.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Is someone talking about Indoctrination?

Great post.

Also, there are individual things within the theory that have been explained away: TIM and his new face, the "reaper tentacles", how Hackett knows Shepard is aboard, Shepard's left-side wound, etc.

I hope Bioware run with it, but they did not intend it.

http://mod.gib.me/masseffect3/testdump.txt

[biod_end002_300timconflict_loc_int.end002_illusive_man_m_d.end002_illusive_man_m_dlg]
1: Shepard enters the room and sees Anderson Slumped over a console.
2: Anderson doesn't respond at first, then turns oddly, stiffly around and takes a few struggling steps toward Shepard.
3: FOVO LINES BELOW: DO NOT EDIT
4: IM uses a bit of control mojo on Shepard.. jerking Shepard's arm towards Anderson.
5: Illusive Man kills himself.
6: Walks over and speaks quietly/persuasively to Shepard

Also, the word indoctrination does not appear anywhere in those production notes. Shepard clutching his left side happens before the confrontation as well.

I just finished the ending last night. Digested it for a bit.

Then I went into this thread, read through some of it, and came across the Indoctrination Theory: https://docs.google.com/document/d/...H84DlCTUmzQ_uQh1voTUs/preview?pli=1&sle=true#

Forgive me, as I'm sure this has been rehashed several times, but as a general consensus, why do people believe that the Indoctrination Theory isn't an appropriate interpretation? I think that a lot of the above document's more subtle observations can be chalked up to poor writing/planning/nitpicking, but there are several specific points that stand out to me as impossible to be coincidence (Black veins on screen, Shepard's gunshot wound, the Child's dialogue being spoken by Shep/Femshep at the same time, etc.)

Also, what does your EMS actually change for the final confrontation?

See above about "black tendrils" and Shep's gunshot wound. As for the voice of the Catalyst, Bioware wanted some ominous feel to it so they get their two voice actors to voice him.

Listen, the Indoc theory doesn't solve anything and it amounts to "it was all a dream." If it's true, it means Shep is still on Earth while the Reapers continue to destroy the galaxy. Now, Bioware did plan on an Indoctrination sequence, but took it out due to time constraints and control issues, but in the notes that Walters wrote, nothing is said about indoctrination. All of the evidence for the Indoc theory can be easily explained by BW's laziness or incompetence for which we have plenty of evidence for.

It's like looking at myself in the past, i couldn't believe it was that bad, i mean i suffered trough Lost, BSG and Sopranos. I think i saw it all, but when the credits roll, oh man, i never felt so bad about an ending before.

Same here, before the ending I thought all people were overreacting, I even stated it in the amazon thread. It couldnt be worse than a dream sequence finale or some shit like that.
But then the reality hit me at 6am in the morning that horrible day, with a game I had enjoyed do much, the fucking 4 minute star child ruining the whole saga.

Dont take me wrong, I still love the 3 mass effect games, and im not going to sell them or some shit like that, becuase I had some of my favourite times in gaming with them, but that ending is just, arg.

I thought everything was blown out of proportion until I beat it. The funny thing is that it didnt really set in until a few hours after and then, as each day went by, I disliked it more and more. I think thats because I started reading about the theories and broken lore, plot holes, etc. The lameness of it really shows.

Off topic but I loved BSG. Start to finish, ending included.

I am fascinated by this. I already knew about the endings before hand and didn't like them, but when I played the game, all I could say was "what." I hope some of those people in the other thread finish it and come here to post their thoughts.

 

[RDreamer]

The Zaed and Kasumi DLC technically changed the ending of ME2 (access to different cut-scenes/choices).

Also, art? REALLY? Several hundred people worked on this piece of software, and you're honestly trying to pass that off as 'art' rather than a feat of writing, design (both gameplay and graphical) and software engineering on the level of a small construction project?

Several hundred people working together to make something doesn't mean it's not art. This is pretty shitty reasoning, man.

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

I don't think they're low art at all. I think pieces of them can come out to be low art. The story in a lot of games tends to be lower art, but taken overall I think you'd have to ignore the work of quite a lot of people to call it low art. I mean each and every game is filled with hundreds of pieces of design and visual art, and it's all set to hours of music that some composers worked insanely hard on and are exceptionally good at. And the gameplay itself is another sort of art in my mind.

 

[HK-47]

It wouldn't have been the two most iconic, just the two in your party, and probably only if you had a low EMS. Currently, I believe if you have a low EMS your party members are shown on the floor dead.

TBH my objection with that scene is not the characters dying but oh hilariously bad it looks.

 

[GuardianE]

Is someone talking about Indoctrination?


http://mod.gib.me/masseffect3/testdump.txt

[biod_end002_300timconflict_loc_int.end002_illusive_man_m_d.end002_illusive_man_m_dlg]
1: Shepard enters the room and sees Anderson Slumped over a console.
2: Anderson doesn't respond at first, then turns oddly, stiffly around and takes a few struggling steps toward Shepard.
3: FOVO LINES BELOW: DO NOT EDIT
4: IM uses a bit of control mojo on Shepard.. jerking Shepard's arm towards Anderson.
5: Illusive Man kills himself.
6: Walks over and speaks quietly/persuasively to Shepard

Also, the word indoctrination does not appear anywhere in those production notes. Shepard clutching his left side happens before the confrontation as well.

See above about "black tendrils" and Shep's gunshot wound. As for the voice of the Catalyst, Bioware wanted some ominous feel to it so they get their two voice actors to voice him.

Listen, the Indoc theory doesn't solve anything and it amounts to "it was all a dream." If it's true, it means Shep is still on Earth while the Reapers continue to destroy the galaxy. Now, Bioware did plan on an Indoctrination sequence, but took it out due to time constraints and control issues, but in the notes that Walters wrote, nothing is said about indoctrination. All of the evidence for the Indoc theory can be easily explained by BW's laziness or incompetence for which we have plenty of evidence for.

Thanks, that's helpful. Really, I wanted to know if there was any indication that the Indoc theory was or was not planned out. The Indoc theory doesn't resolve anything, but it creates the opportunity for something more. Some future resolution. The ending, as it stands, is empty, shallow, and nonsensical.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Thanks, that's helpful. Really, I wanted to know if there was any indication that this ending was or was not planned out. The Indoc theory doesn't resolve anything, but it creates the opportunity for something more. Some future resolution. The ending, as it stands, is empty, shallow, and nonsensical.

I do agree that it does create the opportunity for a better conclusion, but I feel that they have this end and they should stick to it. Artistic integrity and all that.

 

[NightAntilli]

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

Wtf? If anything, games are the ultimate form of art. It consists of writing, music, 3D art, presentation and interactivity. It basically brings all other art forms together in one package..

 

[Riposte]

If games are art, then they are low art. Games are just fun time wasters. In fact, there are maybe 5 games in all the entire industry that I would say has a really good story. It's funny that ME3 is the only game that has ever drawn real emotion out of me. Even with the ham fisted ending. Bioware did an excellent job up until the final 5 or 10 minutes.

All art (aka entertainment) are "time-wasters" and the good ones are fun.

Moreover story is hardly the end-all, be-all in art. The only place it is the priority are fictional novels and it matters less in other mediums with more visual and interactive components for immersion (mattering least in videogames). You also sabotage your own pretension by listing ME3's story as an example of "ascension" for the medium lol.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

All art (aka entertainment) are "time-wasters" and the good ones are fun.

Moreover story is hardly the end-all, be-all in art. The only place it is the priority are fictional novels and it matters less in other mediums with more visual and interactive components for immersion (mattering least in videogames). You also sabotage your own pretension by listing ME3's story as an example of "ascension" for the medium lol.

I'd be willing to bet he didn't put half as much thought into his post as you just did.

 

[bigace33]

Wtf? If anything, games are the ultimate form of art. It consists of writing, music, 3D art, presentation and interactivity. It basically brings all other art forms together in one package..

I'll give you that, but the writing, music, and art are all ham fisted for the most part, meaning, they are almost always of low quality with a few exceptions. I can strum a few tunes on a piano, but that doesn't make it art. Games still have a long way to go for that kind of respect. There are a few games that break the mold, but not the genre as a whole.

 

[GuardianE]

I'll give you that, but the writing, music, and art are all ham fisted for the most part, meaning, they are almost always of low quality with a few exceptions. I can strum a few tunes on a piano, but that doesn't make it art. Games still have a long way to go for that kind of respect. There are a few games that break the mold, but not the genre as a whole.

You know, you can argue that about most entertainment media. Most music, film, books, and television are mainstream, commercialized bullshit.

 

[RDreamer]

You also sabotage your own pretension by listing ME3's story as an example of "ascension" for the medium lol.

I think ME's story and its execution thereof was a sort of ascension for the medium. It's maybe a missed ascension, but part of it is definitely new territory for games. I think the reason this whole ending thing is such a big hullabaloo is because people were very much invested in the story and lore of the games, and part of that investment seemed to have come from their view that they had partial control over the story they were given. Essentially, that control is something no other medium can really come close to emulating. So, yes, ME3 faltered a bit at the end, but I think there's still something there to be applauded and looked to in the future.

I'll give you that, but the writing, music, and art are all ham fisted for the most part, meaning, they are almost always of low quality with a few exceptions. I can strum a few tunes on a piano, but that doesn't make it art. Games still have a long way to go for that kind of respect. There are a few games that break the mold, but not the genre as a whole.

This seems like an incredibly jaded view to have. The 3D art in a lot of games is nothing short of astounding. And even barring that, the concept art for most games should be applauded, because there are some very talented individuals there. And I think you're cutting game music incredibly short. Most games absolutely do not have stuff that could just be done if you can strum a few tunes. For one, I thought the ME3 soundtrack was rather great, but if that isn't your cup of tea there are still plenty out there with amazingly good soundtracks. Look at the whole Uncharted series, Heavy Rain, Final Fantasy, any game done by Yasunori Mitsuda. You could even look to something like Superbrothers: Sword and Sworcery for another completely fresh look at artistic music in games.

 

[Riposte]

It's maybe a missed ascension, but part of it is definitely new territory for games.

And what new territory would that be?

If you mean the role-playing storyline generally ("the control") then, man, do you need to play more games. ME3 isn't a good example of it and the best parts about that "control" was that choices in ME2 could influence a few situations (even locking you out of choices). (This also isn't very new.)

 

[RDreamer]

And what territory would that be?

If you mean the role-playing storyline generally ("the control") then, man, do you need to play more games. ME3 isn't a good example of it and the best parts about that "control" was that choices in ME2 could influence a few situations (even locking you out of choices).

I think it's the control of the story mixed with higher budgets and almost hollywood esque scenes which hasn't really been done so much. And yeah sure it isn't exactly revolutionary in and of itself, but look at this response. If their story hadn't resonated with people, then no one would give a shit about the ending. This response precisely showed that they did something with the rest of the series that not many other games have been truly able to do.

 

[EatChildren]

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

 

[Riposte]

If their story hadn't resonated with people, then no one would give a shit about the ending.

In this suppose to be that basis of your argument? I can't think this very seriously.

I wonder how many comparisons you want to make to Halo 2, MGS4, etc.

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

Art is a mostly meaningless and obscuring term for entertainment. The reason you haven't heard an objective definition is because the process of naming art has been fraudulent for centuries. Right about time people decided quality (entertainment value) =/= art.

With that conclusion it is only natural you've never heard a truly convincing argument for why anything is or is not art.

 

[Trey]

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

All that needs to be said, really.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Games are art like buildings and architecture are art. They have some utility outside of purely artistic endeavors, yet are very clearly artistic in nature. Their ultimate success is derived from their function and not their aesthetic. I've always loved this analogy; it works on numerous levels.

 

[Tajin]

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

Chrono Trigger midi trance remixes.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

For games being art: ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, killer7

Against: MGS4, MW3

But this is my subjective opinion.

 

[Takamura-San]

I'm the only one that would appreciate the ending X1,000,000 more if they cut to the end when Anderson and Shepard are sitting down looking at the battle being lost, without being able to use the crucible?

It wouldn't been perfect and it wouldn't take into account the decisions, but if they wanted to shoehorn something. I would have preferred that.

 

[rdrr gnr]

For games being art: ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, killer7

Against: MGS4, MW3

But this is my subjective opinion.

There is merit to your claim, I think.

 

[Trey]

Games are art like buildings and architecture are art. They have some utility outside of purely artistic endeavors, yet are very clearly artistic in nature. Their ultimate success is derived from their function and not their aesthetic. I've always loved this analogy; it works on numerous levels.

Their ultimate success is up to the individual.

 

[tino]

How do you guys know the one in the extra cut scene is Shepard. I would love to see Bioware pull back the camera and reveal Vega's face.

 

[EatChildren]

Art is a mostly meaningless and obscuring term for entertainment. The reason you haven't heard an objective definition is because the process of naming art has been fraudulent for centuries. Right about time people decided quality (entertainment value) =/= art.

With that conclusion it is only natural you've never heard a truly convincing argument for why anything is or is not art.

That is my point. Every debate over the validity of video games as art is, and it's core, an argument to define art. That's literally all it is: an attempt to give objective, definitive value and variables to an otherwise hugely subjective and vague term.

Everybody is ultimately going to have their own personal definition of what constitutes as 'art' and what values something must before it can be defined as art. And then those values themselves are subjective and vague.

Which is fine, you know. I just see it as a pretty pointless and usually circular debate. You end up with two people trying argue why their subjective, personal opinion is more objectively correct than the other person's subjective, personal opinion.

 

[RDreamer]

In this suppose to be that basis of your argument? I can't think this very seriously.

I wonder how many comparisons you want to make to Halo 2, MGS4, etc.

Yeah, you're totally right, dude. Millions of people were invested into this story for no reason at all, and thousands let their voice be heard on the ending to the story they were invested into because of nothing. Bioware did absolutely nothing to garner such investment. Nope, nothing at all. Their games just suck, their stories just suck, and people care about them for no reason.


... Something doesn't exactly need to be high art or the absolute pinnacle of accomplishment to be something of cultural significance or relevance. Sometimes these things don't even really have to bring something completely and utterly new to the table, either. They just need to present it in such a way that resonates with people in general. And I think movements like this make it pretty obvious that these games have resonated with a large amount of people, and I think there are definitely some things in there that is unique to games and can be at least looked at with an inquisitive eye by other game developers.

 

[.GqueB.]

LOTS of Mass Effect ending talk on BLH this week (because this shit is so fascinating). LOST and BSG comparisons within:



Starts at about 1:15 in.

 

[Aretak]

How do you guys know the one in the extra cut scene is Shepard. I would love to see Bioware pull back the camera and reveal Vega's face.

It was Conrad Verner in his knock-off N7 armour.

 

[bigace33]

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

Games are mostly nonsensical and fantasy in nature, they rarely tackle issues based on reality, and are usually limited in scope by the lack of skilled writing, and hardware limitations. Out of all the mediums, gaming would be the least likely to be considered art. I think ME3 has pushed the genre forward tenfold. Like a poster said earlier, this is the reason we are so passionate about the flop ending. It has taken this long for a game to draw out genuine emotion from it's users. Movies have done this for ages, music has done this for ages, even art pieces have done this. Games have not been taken serious enough for people to convey real emotions.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

What games would you consider art then, and what do those game have that BioWare games don't? And don't forget that ME3 had the shortest development cycle of all of them.

Most recently?

Journey. Not so much because of the visuals but due to the fact that the developer clearly has a vision. They clearly seem to be committed to it. I'm sure there are design or gameplay choices they have had to compromise over but playing Journey feels like they stayed as true to their initial vision as possible and it also feels as though they did not cut any corners. It plays elegantly.

Another game that I would consider "art"?

Vanquish. Not all of it mind you but there are moments in the game, where everything comes together and I would classify as art. Where you stop thinking that you are playing a game. You are power sliding and shooting and dodging a thousand missles fired at you by a giant robot and it's...beautiful.

I'm getting all weird but it feels as though some developers care less about the player experience and stay more committed to what they truly envisioned for their game. For me, it feels as though the less invested they are in appealing to as many customers as possible; the more cohesive the game feels and in some way, the more they respect their customers.

It's like they're saying, "Don't worry. We're game developers. We got this. We'll take care of you."

There are developers whose judgment I trust when it comes to the games they make.

Bioware is incapable of evoking such emotions within me. They're the exact opposite.

"Give us your feedback!"
"We want a broader audience to appeal to."
"Everytime you press a button, something awesome happens!"

It seems like the more feedback they gather, the less they actually know.
They really have ZERO idea who their customer is anymore.

Coupled with the impression that they take zero pride in their work, ME 3 feels like a rush-job and it smacks of a complete lack of respect for their customer-base.

 

[Derrick01]

The point I keep trying to hammer in is who cares if they're considered art or not? Does it change your enjoyment if old people who don't play start considering them meaningful?

I don't know, most games that a lot of people would consider art I consider to be painfully boring. Like the team Ico games and the guys who are behind Journey and Flower.

 

[Tajin]

Is this art?

 

[heliosRAzi]

If you feel it's art, then its art.

Is this art?

That's artistic integity

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Games are mostly nonsensical and fantasy in nature, they rarely tackle issues based on reality, and are usually limited in scope by the lack of skilled writing, and hardware limitations. Out of all the mediums, gaming would be the least likely to be considered art. I think ME3 has pushed the genre forward tenfold. Like a poster said earlier, this is the reason we are so passionate about the flop ending. It has taken this long for a game to draw out genuine emotion from it's users. Movies have done this for ages, music has done this for ages, even art pieces have done this. Games have not been taken serious enough for people to convey real emotions.

 

[Trey]

You see what art does? It destroys a completely fine spoiler thread.

 

[Riposte]

What can be said? Really.

 

[bigace33]

Is this art?

Low art.

 

[BackdoorBeauty]

ME2 was hard to top. Best game in the trilogy.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Art has no truly objective definition, thus I'm yet to hear a truly convincing argument for or against games being art.

It has a "high level" of writing so it must be art.