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[FIREKNIGHT2029]

You can just see the “excitement” on their faces.

 

[poppabk]

If I collaborate with a co-worker, a professional colleague, in our own time on a new game idea and we come up with a story, art, etc. and we then pitch it to the company we both work for at the time and they reject it, that remains our idea.

That isn't how it works in the US. Even if you didn't pitch it to them and just released it they would legally be able to try and assert ownership. You would have to legally get them to release the pitch to you.
If I, as a scientist, did the same the game would legally be mine and my company would have no rights to it.
But if I come up with a new target for cancer drugs while watching Netflix at home, my company would be able to try and take ownership.

 

[Windom Earle]

I don't have an informed opinion on the subject but Booty comes across as a real dick here, seems very unlikable.

 

[rm082e]

Granted it's multifaceted - as the idea of using proprietary IP knowledge to build something on your own time also has all kinds of issues... but ah well, as Matt puts it - it's a messy boundary...

Yeah, I would imagine that would be pretty tough to pin someone down on though. If you're using Unity at your job and you use Unity for your indie game you made after hours, it's not like they can claim you were using their proprietary tools. If you use a custom engine owned by your employer at work, it's not like you're going to make your indie game with those tools.

I'm also not sure what history Microsoft has with going after the little guy in situations like this.

 

[rm082e]

I don't have an informed opinion on the subject but Booty comes across as a real dick here, seems very unlikable.

Which is why he's been in his current position for so long. Corporate management tends to reward disagreeable people for being blunt and harsh.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

And yet the patent doesn't reference the game and has no code in it. It's just the description of the practical application of an idea.

Yeah, again, not the idea itself. The application is (or should be) incredibly specific.

Software patents are daft anyway. The EU doesn't accept them for obvious reasons.

 

[gothmog]

Most good companies have an avenue for their employees to work on their own stuff like open source or personal projects. Usually it means raising it up internally before getting too deep into it to ensure there's no conflict of interest.

 

[A.Romero]

They aren't. I don't care what bullshit they add to the contract. It's not enforceable.

But it's America so it doesn't need to be enforceable. They'll just find another reason to sack you anyway

WTF how wouldn't it be legal to keep property of the stuff your employee develops during their time at the company?

Is it different in any place in the world?

I'd think getting sacked would be the least of the employee's concerns. I'd be more worried about the parent company suing me for the actual IP.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

WTF how wouldn't it be legal to keep property of the stuff your employee develops during their time at the company?

Is it different in any place in the world?

I'd think getting sacked would be the least of the employee's concerns. I'd be more worried about the parent company suing me for the actual IP.

You're aware I'm talking about ideas right? Not actual assets

 

[A.Romero]

You're aware I'm talking about ideas right? Not actual assets

If you are pitching them they are out in the open. There is a reason people in the biz advice against people sending pitches over social media and that's because there is liability.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

If you are pitching them they are out in the open. There is a reason people in the biz advice against people sending pitches over social media and that's because there is liability.

No, you don't make pitches public because other people are free to make your game based on your pitch. Jesus christ

 

[Dick Jones]

Morale at Double Fine has been downgraded to Just Fine.

Matt Booty is aptly named. A fucking arsehole.

 

[Pedro Motta]

It doesn't matter of Psychonauts 1 and 2 got 100/100 scores from every game site on Earth.

Hardly any gamers are going to want to play those kiddie looking games. and it shows because both games dont sell lots of copies.

I played both of them and I loved them. MS needs more games like this. Doesn't matter if they sell or not, it creates brand culture, you know, the thing Sony did many years ago with smaller games that didn't sell well.

 

[Neff]

There was an interesting lawsuit for SW in the UK IIRC where the guy that Lucas paid to produce the Storm Trooper prop helmets for the film, years later went to sell the moulds for the props and it was found by courts after legal challenges by Lucas, that the engineer still legally owned the moulds of those prop helmets, with the right to sell them on.

I would imagine in that instance that Lucas not asking for the moulds in the first place and the length of time which had passed left him without much of a case. But yeah this is the kind of thing which needs to be established in advance between employer and employee, and it's usually addressed in your contract when creating in the entertainment business. If your company neglects to outline such rules from the outset, it can get muddy, and it's best to just keep your mouth shut if you want to hold onto your own ideas.

 

[Tams]

Can't believe I'm defending Matt Booty here but if these are employees and not contractors then....

Fuck off.

If they don't work on it on company time, on company property, then it is not the company's.

Pitching it is not 'working' on company time or property.

 

[A.Romero]

No, you don't make pitches public because other people are free to make your game based on your pitch. Jesus christ

That too but you would think that the person in the biz that receive it would do it happily and wouldn't discourage it, right? They do discourage it because they can get sued.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That too but you would think that the person in the biz that receive it would do it happily and wouldn't discourage it, right? They do discourage it because they can get sued.

The only issue is you're distributing copyrighted material. The material again which is just stuff like concept art. Not the pitches themselves

 

[A.Romero]

The only issue is you're distributing copyrighted material. The material again which is just stuff like concept art. Not the pitches themselves

Sure, my man.

 

[ChiefDada]

Fuck off.

Harsh.

If they don't work on it on company time, on company property, then it is not the company's.

Pitching it is not 'working' on company time or property.

Ok so then why are they discussing it at all with higher ups? If this "pitch" of theirs comes with tangible documentation, prototype, etc. sourced 100% without their employer's resources (including time) then they should have nothing to worry about. But if they provide a pitch while developing using company resources, they're SOL. As they should be.

I'm surprised this is as controversial as it appears to be in this thread.

 

[saintjules]

Unless I can't count he was there for 15 years? He's been with Microsoft for 14 years now.

Are all Twitter users so fucking stupid?

Maybe I can't count either. But isn't that taken from his LinkedIn profile? Says 6 years and change... I'm talking about the gaming side of things. Which is what they were trying to highlight.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I would imagine in that instance that Lucas not asking for the moulds in the first place and the length of time which had passed left him without much of a case. But yeah this is the kind of thing which needs to be established in advance between employer and employee, and it's usually addressed in your contract when creating in the entertainment business. If your company neglects to outline such rules from the outset, it can get muddy, and it's best to just keep your mouth shut if you want to hold onto your own ideas.

The time that had past would have made no difference. Ultimately the moulds weren't work "product" and were tooling of the prop making company. At a basic level, had the engineering company gone bust, the liquidators would have treated the moulds as company assets, and without a contract explicitly stating they were provided by Lucas, or part of Lucas work order, he'd would have had zero means to take the liquidators to court to stop them selling the tooling on to recover funds for debtors. And I think that's the part where the UK law gets it right, work "product" has to align with the job you interviewed for and actually get paid specifically to do, and anything else belongs to the party that has physical ownership of it, unless someone has a specific receipt saying otherwise.

 

[Loomy]

If I work on something on my own time and on my own devices, it's mine.

Imagine a chef goes home, fucks around in his kitchen and makes a new dish with ingredients he bought himself. Does his restaurant now own that recipe?

If a developer signs off of all works systems, goes home, and works from 8pm to 2am on a game, that game is theirs.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Fuck off.

If they don't work on it on company time, on company property, then it is not the company's.

Pitching it is not 'working' on company time or property.

Unless you can prove that you didn't spend time on company property thinking about the project, the project is owned by the corporation.

 

[semiconscious]

'if matt booty didn't already exist, microsoft would've had to've invented him...'

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Unless you can prove that you didn't spend time on company property thinking about the project, the project is owned by the corporation.

Thinking about the project? Are you daft?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Thinking about the project? Are you daft?

You are forgiving of thought crimes? That's absurd.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

You are forgiving of thought crimes? That's absurd.

I wake up every morning knowing one of your thoughts offend me. I still forgive you

 

[Shin-Ra]

I’m not putting my lips on that.

 

[Hugare]

Harsh topic.

Particularly harsh for Double Fine, 'cause they've always been independant, and being bought by a company like Microsoft results in a HUGE cultural clash

They've always made that game jam of theirs where devs made some small games that later became some indie titles (like Costume Quest), and it always felt like they were almost like a family business in some ways, not giving a damn about deadlines (Broken Age) and being really mismanaged.

The cultural fit with MS couldnt be worse lol

And yeah, Booty sounded like a jerk in the video. He could have handled those questions way better than he did.

 

[ResilientBanana]

This is how all businesses typically run. There’s nothing faring with what Booty is saying.

 

[Loomy]

Unless you can prove that you didn't spend time on company property thinking about the project, the project is owned by the corporation.

That's not how it works.

Also it would be up to the company to prove that you worked on it on their time and their property(device, network, software, etc)

Can't believe I'm defending Matt Booty here but if these are employees and not contractors then....

Before even you get to the pitch phase, Booty is saying if you work on something that conflicts with what they do in their day job, it's a problem.

So, by his logic, if you work at an Xbox studio, and in your own time on your own device you're making a little side scroller with your friends, that's a conflict.

Which is an absurd take. Not entirely uncommon, but no less absurd.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

If I were on that team and had any interest in making an indie game, I would immediately switch to keeping any decent ideas for myself. I'd work on them in my own time, on my personal computer, at home and not speak a word about it to anyone at the office. I would only bring the least interesting ideas to the company. Assuming the idea is good enough to turn into a game I wanted to release, I would wait until there's some kind of breaking point to quit.

It's a pretty dumb move to say this, because it leads to the very obvious conclusion of "all good ideas remain mine". Now you have a culture of people phoning it in doing their day jobs for the company, and anything worthwhile to pitch is never going to be mentioned at work.

Also, interesting that Booty already changed his title from Xbox Game Studios to Microsoft Studios.

 

[kingpotato]

When I worked for a video game publisher almost 20 years ago we signed paperwork that made everything you "worked on" the company's property. We used to joke that we couldn't eat because any food you prepared belonged to the company.

 

[rm082e]

It's a pretty dumb move to say this, because it leads to the very obvious conclusion of "all good ideas remain mine". Now you have a culture of people phoning it in doing their day jobs for the company, and anything worthwhile to pitch is never going to be mentioned at work.

Yeah, exactly. It's a break down of trust. A breakdown that started with the giant corporation saying anything you pitch here belongs to us, even if we don't use it. Tim didn't have that policy when they were an indie.

If giant corporation doesn't want their creative employees phoning it in, they should probably not threaten to squeeze those employees for money on the creative work they do on their own time. They're literally sending the message "we own you".

 

[Tams]

Unless you can prove that you didn't spend time on company property thinking about the project, the project is owned by the corporation.

That would just be ignored in a court as the company couldn't prove that you were.

 

[odhiex]

I feel like this was a legitimately interesting interaction between Matt Booty and some of the developers at Double Fine. Enjoy.

Wow.. look at their faces. Good job, Matt.

 

[justiceiro]

What is the problem some cultures have with moonlighting? Do people think job is a religion?

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

This can happen pretty much anywhere. It's ultimately at the discretion of your company regarding action they might take in this situation, but the law is on their side.

Use their shit, to make your shit, while they're paying you? It's their shit now.

Not in Europe

 

[Hudo]

What is the problem some cultures have with moonlighting? Do people think job is a religion?

I think it's mostly an American thing.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I feel like this was a legitimately interesting interaction between Matt Booty and some of the developers at Double Fine. Enjoy.

I like how hands off MS is. Only replacing core tenets of a studio, cancelling version of games already in development for other platforms, replacing permanent employees with armies of rotating contractors, etc… .

 

[BlackTron]

A technical law discussion with Ass of Can Whooping and Men in Boxes replying to each other

Ok I'm out

 

[Hudo]

Are all Twitter users so fucking stupid?

Unironically yes. Otherwise they wouldn't use Twitter.

 

[KungFucius]

Not of course lmao. That's dumb as fuck. You don't own the thought experiments of your employees just because they're done inside the walls.

What planet are you from? When you work for a company, all IP that you generate while working for them is theirs. You sign documents agreeing to that. A failed pitch is IP you generated while working for them.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

What planet are you from? When you work for a company, all IP that you generate while working for them is theirs. You sign documents agreeing to that. A failed pitch is IP you generated while working for them.

You don't understand what IP is

 

[Miles708]

What planet are you from? When you work for a company, all IP that you generate while working for them is theirs. You sign documents agreeing to that. A failed pitch is IP you generated while working for them.

Corporate America is a nightmare

 

[Neilg]

While Matt booty is correct that all IP generated technically belongs to the company - my own studio has a similar contract language, there are 2 pretty important details here.
1 - double fine, in telling people they could keep the IP if it wasn't selected, fostered an environment where people felt safe going home and working through the night and weekends, knowing if the pitch didn't land they could still turn it into a children's book or whatever. People are not doing these on company time. Eroding that trust means if someone believes their idea is really good, they'll just quit and develop it themselves. If you add an element of risk, people get protective, the pitches get shittier/dry up.

2 - MS has teams of lawyers on staff, meaning if you are even vaguely suspected of breaking the agreement, it doesn't cost them anything to absolutely crush you. A smaller studio like DF (and the one I work for) would need to spend $50k+ to start the fight. When you make this clear to employees, it softens the harsh legal language of a contract. Yes there's a non compete... But if it doesn't cause direct financial losses, everyone knows it won't be pursued and the grey area of where the enforcement lies is very clear. Categorically not the case with a behemoth like MS and lawyers on staff.

Its no change to anything anyone signed, but the way it's enforced suddenly becomes extremely oppressive for what is supposed to be a creative environment.
There's not really any way around it. Their staff liked the benefits of being independent. Now they are not, and theres a big impact to morale and they'll probably lose a few people.

The way MS buys studios is a little out of whack. They're too overbearing in some areas and nowhere near involved enough in others. They can't get the balance right and that's kind of the crux of all their issues. As a division of a huge Corp, Xbox can't operate independently enough to be flexible and get the best out of people.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Sounds like Matt Booty doesn't understand how corporations work, which is shocking considering what great shape xbox is in right now . . .

Any work during company time or on company devices is owned by the company. But anything on your own time on your own devices is not.

Pitching an idea during a brainstorming meeting is not handing over ownership for everything said. That's insane.

 

[xmagxus]

Matt Booty is the kind of boss that sits in his air conditioned office all day long then walks out 5 minutes before all the hourly workers clock out for lunch just so he can stand by the timeclock watching for people to clock out 30 seconds early just so he can in an exaggerated tone for everyone's benefit say: "INTEREESTTTTTTTINNGGGGGGG" before storming back to HR to initiating disciplinary measures.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

bro... I have been watching some of the clips...I can't deal with depressing shit right now.

 

[bitbydeath]

bro... I have been watching some of the clips...I can't deal with depressing shit right now.