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Matt weighs in on PS5 I/O, PS5 vs XSX and what it means for PC.

LordOfChaos

Member
It’s so strange to see gamers downplaying technology that will help make games better. That this tech exists is an objective good, there is no downside, only upside. There is no other consumer solution that compares to this setup, and we should want companies to push the boundaries of technology for our benefit.

Yep, and pretty much what Tim Sweeney was saying as well, if this novel storage solution ends up being a significant benefit, why would we not want its boundaries pushed and the ideas to make it other platforms eventually, rather than downplaying it? I mean, obviously fanboyism, but apart from that. I'm excited for both, cool, yeah, a 17% GPU advantage is significant, but there's just not that much to talk about there, where much faster, much more direct access from a really fast SSD directly into GPU memory space with all the bottlenecks in between taken care of is a much more interesting thing to think about how it would rearchitect game design.



 

Exodia

Banned
Matt said:
DirectStorage is great for what it is, but yeah, I expect brute force speed to be the biggest factor here.

The SX more conventional than the PS5, and therefore less novel to talk about. It’s still a stronger system in many ways.

I wish he would of gave examples

That's because he's literally just making it up as he goes. He has no clue what DirectStorage is. SX isn't conventional. Most developer don't even have low level hardware knowledge of how these SoC works. They simply use the game engine as an IDE that their engine team created to build their game. Only the few graphics engineers and likewise do. The idea that all these developers would know that PS5 is novel and SX is conventional is another warped logic.

Most developers at a studio are concept artist, environmental artists, 3d modelers, game-play designer, networking engineers, etc which are all unrelated. None of these jobs which classify you as a "developer" gives you knowledge to know whether a system is novel or not.

The idea that all these developers are now electrical, chip and graphics engineers is nonsense. If you believe that...then come use my time machine so we get all six infinity stones
 
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Lethal01

Member
Did you not read the first page, watch UE5 demo and read Tim cernys many tweets.

s20rPZG.png


Ps5 is best at some things, XSX is best at other things. Best start getting used to the differences.

Ps5 games first party will stream insane details, XSX will probably push rays / resolution better - different approaches.

Why do you think XSX will be equal at handling the IO of high quality assets ? Is a TF advantage not enough for you ?
"Photorealistic" assets for ps5, "Photorealistic" lighting for XEREX.
I'm more of a lighting guy in general but maybe both consoles will be a big enough leap from last gen than "realistic" games no longer make my eyes bleed
 

Lethal01

Member
Photorealism needs many things to be achieved and assets quality isn't the most important of them. Lighting and textures are far more important in this case. At some point, some of your assets don't benefit from too many polygons. Ray tracing and high quality textures will do the trick. Ofc some assets will benefit from more polygons, but some details are hard to see if your lighting system is lacking. That Unreal 5 demo shined mainly because of the lighting and texture quality. Imo both will have close to reality renders but XSX is better equipped to get closer to photorealism.

Textures..... are assets
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Why do you believe that textures and details would be higher due to the SSD speed. A scene is composed textures at certain LODs.

I cant see why the LOD or texture quality would vary at all between the two systems.

Very interesting take.
Tim Sweeney did say the SSD allows for denser, more detailed environments. A Naughty Dog developer also alluded to it. They're saving memory because not everything has to be kept in ram for immediate access
kWzOKWx.jpg
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
But LOD is based on distance to the frustum. So I can see model detail in terms of triangles drawn being static (mesh shaders help here) but the LOD is always being adjusted.

I think what you are saying is that the PS5 SSD is so fast that texture fetchs are relatively instant. LOD checkins are meaningless in that case.

Is that right?
I think this will save on game development time too, not having to create as many LODs and being able to load the highest quality assets in and out quickly instead
 

LarknThe4th

Member
Having both of them be kind of different in some practical ways has me excited because Microsoft 1st party games might emphasize IQ and frame rate whilst Sony 1st party might emphasize reducing pop in and more seamless environments


After the last generation I'm kind of happy we might be getting different functioning and looking games
 

Major_Key

perm warning for starting troll/bait threads
SX will have better res, so texture look more detailed,clean at eyes and better frame rate.

SX have 110GB/s ram advantage and more efficient use of it with SFS and BCPack.

SX will have better RT with more pushed Global illumination,Shadow,Reflection all in high res.

------------

PS5 will have advantage on Display distance/far away LOD but I don't think Sony FP will use like that but more variety of assets at the screen. (because players will not make a difference in more detailed assets far away.)

PS5 will have faster loading time

PS5 will better manage the "flying" sequence like scenes.
--------------

I think MS for counter sony better far away LOD or more assets at the screen, they will push RT especially Global illumination & Reflection.

I think that in the end the SX will be able to make more visually "Impressive" games if their studio really pushes Lighting / RT / VFX.

Because the 2 consoles will have such detailed textures that it will no longer make a difference, it will be difficult to tell the difference, a bit like the 1800p vs the true 4K.

So you will have to impress with the Lighting / RT GI + REFLECTION / VFX

SX can do Photorealistic stuff and PS5 can do Photorealistic stuff.
 
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Exodia

Banned
Its not too hard to figure out

Ps5 games will stream high quality assets and models will be more detailed.

XSX will have better ray tracing, slight TF advantage.

Some 3rd parties wont bother much, samey

MS first party will push ray tracing and go for frame rate

Sony first party will push high details and more photorealistic


No console is da best, depends what the task is ....and first parties will use features which benefit the hardware...and 3rd parties will make games..

All opinion IMO

None of this is true. You are conflating concrete details with environment design implementation.
The facts are XSX has TF avantage, Better Ray tracing hardware, faster ram, more ML etc.
But how it translates to actual games is still an unknown.

Same with PS5. It has faster SSD. But how it translates to actual games is still an unknown.
Making the statement that PS5 will stream high quality assets insinuates that XSX won't.
Or that models will be more detailed in PS5. Again completely false.
Or sony's first party game will be more photorealistic. Again completely false.
We already have knowledge that big open world games are less detailed than corridor or map/hub based games.
It all depends on the game and environmental design.

Look at this scene. Runs on an ridiculous old version of UE4 with worse baked lighting tech compared to 4.25. It doesn't use any of the new features of next gen. Yet it looks so good. Can you spot all the repeated assets? Of-course you can't.

That's the beauty of environment design. Any repeated asset only appears ONCE in memory not the 100s of instances that its drawn. The idea that you will have a bunch of first party games streaming 5 GB/s is the most ridiculous thing ever. Its a complete fabrication.

Yet if this video was shown on Sony Conference. People would go around CLAIMING it is only possible because of the SSD. This will be the narrative all next gen. That any game shown from their first party studio is only possible because of the SSD. No matter how illogical the argument is.

 
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noise36

Member
PS5 = Ultra
3080Ti / 1GBs SSD PC = Medium
XSX = Low

I think this is what we will see going forward

This is basically a summary of what is being posted daily all over resetera and neogaf since the UE5 demo.

If you post anything against that narrative you get attacked by the herd.

The main issue which wont be resolved until the systems and games are available at retail is what all this marketing speak and fanboy hype will actually mean for multi-plat games and exclusives.

You can talk to devs all day long but none I have seen thus far are in a position to directly compare the same game on the two systems and make impartial observations about real world differences.
 
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Dory16

Banned
Why is it so difficult for some to admit Sony did a fantastic job with the ssd subsystem?
You clearly haven't visited teh thread about the XSX 100GB instantly available. Now that is difficulty to accept something.
As for Mat I just don't know what to take from his interview. It''s the most accomplished exercise int triangulation I've ever seen. Everything is good and everything is great but this one is soooooo great.
 

Paracelsus

Member
Why is it so difficult for some to admit Sony did a fantastic job with the ssd subsystem?

Read the 3080ti comment. It isn't trolling, they mean it 100%.
I stand by the statement Sony (like, they can pick anybody that represents Sony) could run for POTUS and they would be elected. Their PR has done a wonderful job on the masses.
 

LarknThe4th

Member
SX will have better res, so texture look more detailed,clean at eyes and better frame rate.

SX have 110GB/s ram advantage and more efficient use of it with SFS and BCPack.

SX will have better RT with more pushed Global illumination,Shadow,Reflection all in high res.

------------

PS5 will have advantage on Display distance/far away LOD but I don't think Sony FP will use like that but more variety of assets at the screen. (because players will not make a difference in more detailed assets far away.)

PS5 will have faster loading time

PS5 will better manage the "flying" sequence like scenes.
--------------

I think MS for counter sony better far away LOD or more assets at the screen, they will push RT especially Global illumination & Reflection.

I think that in the end the SX will be able to make more visually "Impressive" games if their studio really pushes Lighting / RT / VFX.

Because the 2 consoles will have such detailed textures that it will no longer make a difference, it will be difficult to tell the difference, a bit like the 1800p vs the true 4K.

So you will have to impress with the Lighting / RT GI + REFLECTION / VFX

SX can do Photorealistic stuff and PS5 can do Photorealistic stuff.
Going into this gen I was just expecting the usual but this all has me pretty excited, vast reduction in loading times/pop in

Maybe A.I can be worked on in the generation after this one!!
 

Exodia

Banned
He can't answer that question unless he's deep in AAA development for both next gen consoles and he probably wouldn't want to if he was. He's a dev that has access to devkits/next gen games or works with those that do I believe.

I've never seen so many devs excited about a new piece of hardware like the PS5, I just want to fucking see the games now!
He's not a dev. He's an "insider". According to what i have read.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
LODs are used to get better performance out of the engine. There is no reason to render a rock at full resolution if that rock is 100m away. In the end SSDs will eliminate pop ins imo.
It'll be more than just eliminating pop ins. I think the idea here is higher quality assets can be streamed in and much quicker and not have to be held captive in ram, so memory will be freed up and developers also don't have to waste time creating different LOD models

LODs aren't always for things that are 100 meters away

Game design can greatly improve too
 

Major_Key

perm warning for starting troll/bait threads
None of this is true. You are conflating concrete details with environment design implementation.
The facts are XSX has TF avantage, Better Ray tracing hardware, faster ram, more ML etc.
But how it translates to actual games is still an unknown.

Same with PS5. It has faster SSD. But how it translates to actual games is still an unknown.
Making the statement that PS5 will stream high quality assets insinuates that XSX won't.
Or that models will be more detailed in PS5. Again completely false.
Or sony's first party game will be more photorealistic. Again completely false.
We already have knowledge that big open world games are less detailed than corridor or map/hub based games.
It all depends on the game and environmental design.

Look at this scene. Runs on an ridiculous old version of UE4 with worse baked lighting tech compared to 4.25. It doesn't use any of the new features of next gen. Yet it looks so good. Can you spot all the repeated assets? Of-course you can't.

That's the beauty of environment design. Any repeated asset only appears ONCE in memory not the 100s of instances that its drawn. The idea that you will have a bunch of first party games streaming 5 GB/s is the most ridiculous thing ever. Its a complete fabrication.

Yet if this video was shown on Sony Conference. People would go around CLAIMING it is only possible because of the SSD. This will be the narrative all next gen. That any game shown from their first party studio is only possible because of the SSD. No matter how illogical the argument is.




That what I talked about...

Even if the PS5 will have more assets displayed in high res on the screen, the difference will be minimal I think because look what U4 can do. while The demo of UE5 manages assets in 8K.

It will be necessary to make the difference on lighting / RT GI + Reflextion / VFX to make more "stunning" games.
 
Nice synopsis. I think as PC gets faster PCIE solutions deployed, the benefits of XVA components such as Direct Storage will come to fruition.

A pc ssd solution running at or near the stated PCIE 4 spec capability at 4 lanes or above would definitely blow the console solutions away.

It would be great to see a PC SSD running full tilt PCIE spec comparison to PS5 in 2021.

PC will have to fix the IO in order to use the SSD like the ps5
 
It'll be more than just eliminating pop ins. I think the idea here is higher quality assets can be streamed in and much quicker and not have to be held captive in ram, so memory will be freed up and developers also don't have to waste time creating different LOD models

LODs aren't always for things that are 100 meters away

Game design can greatly improve too
Don't you think your CPU and GPU have to render all these high quality assets that are far from the camera? I'm not trying to say the SSD on the PS5 will only be used to reduce pop ins.
 

ancelotti

Member
All the lighting tricks and improved LOD don't really count for shit if it's being rendered at 30fps. The Assassins Creed announcement really deflated the hype bubble for me.
 
That's because he's literally just making it up as he goes. He has no clue what DirectStorage is. SX isn't conventional. Most developer don't even have low level hardware knowledge of how these SoC works. They simply use the game engine as an IDE that their engine team created to build their game. Only the few graphics engineers and likewise do. The idea that all these developers would know that PS5 is novel and SX is conventional is another warped logic.

Most developers at a studio are concept artist, environmental artists, 3d modelers, game-play designer, networking engineers, etc which are all unrelated. None of these jobs which classify you as a "developer" gives you knowledge to know whether a system is novel or not.

The idea that all these developers are now electrical, chip and graphics engineers is nonsense. If you believe that...then come use my time machine so we get all six infinity stones

Well, I do think a certain narrative has formed around this idea that XSX is "basically" just a supercharged PC in a console box and the PS5 is some exotic system design, because the conversation has shifted to I/O improvements and innovations, something Sony leveraged with their Road to PS5 presentation partly out of starvation from fans in wanting ANY new info on PS5 (and FWIW, most of those fans were looking towards the TF number up until that presentation).

However, I do wonder to what extent Microsoft fed into that because since they sensed most gamers were hopped up on TF and nothing else (even when some of us kept trying to tell them there was more to the systems than just TFs months ahead of Road to PS5), that was what they pushed ahead in their earlier messaging. They actually did provide some info on other aspects of the system design outside of the GPU power, but most of it has either been buried under TF power talk due to the timing they released that info, or has since been scattered about in delivery by some team members here and there in a random Twitter post, or this random stream on a channel most gamers aren't paying attention to, or this doc dump most gamers, again, aren't going to be bothered to read, etc.

That narrative I'm referring to kind of piggybacks off the "brute force vs. optimized elegance" meme that formed a while back too, which is also disingenuous because when you look a little more into the system designs you see that both of them have a lot of unique optimizations to them while also having some brute power advantage over the other in some select areas. But again, I think for some people it's just way easier to boil everything down to simple terms if it makes conversation easier.

The onus is on MS to shift back against that narrative, but they also need to do it in a way that plays to their strengths. And preferably, that needs to be shown in the July event. They have to demonstrate the impact their I/O solution in tandem with their hardware advantages brings to next-gen game design on their platform. Simply discussing it at an architecture presentation, while very much valued, won't be enough (though it can help elucidate on anything that's already been shown beforehand).

This thread is so civil compared to the one over at REE. It's always good to see actual devs write and explain this stuff.



It's pretty obvious Series X has raw compute advantage and I expect that to translate to higher res/better frames/better RT. I'm really keen to see the game Initiative have been working on, it's rumored to be Perfect Dark and an even earlier rumor hinted it being an AAAA game. Hopefully eyeballs will melt!



My interpretation of his posts is that Sony have built a cutting-edge tech, but ultimately it's up to the devs to cater to that tech. Epic with UE5 have (to some extent) tried to leverage that, I think their VP of Engineering mentioned something along the lines of rewriting their 'core I/O sub systems' keeping PS5 in mind. But, 3rd party devs using Unity/Frostbite etc. may not necessarily re-work their engine to leverage PS5 I/O.

I think it's a bit beyond Epic just trying to leverage it; as you've said, they rewrote parts of their I/O sub systems with PS5 in mind, and I'd imagine Sony helped them a lot in that since they have been partners working on this for years. Just the same how I'm sure MS has been working with Epic on providing support for engine features in UE5 that will leverage their platform's hardware features.

Unreal seems to be the most popular game engine around though when it comes to use in commercial console games, so while the potential for other engines to offer similar levels of abstraction and feature access that's easy enough for devs to use is up in the air, those engines'll either have to eventually try to compete on that front or risk having devs switch over to a competitor engine that provides what they want.
 

Neo_game

Member

More than the tflops the elephant in the room is RAM it's BW. They should have gone with 16gps like all the GPU releasing this year are going to be.
 

Justin9mm

Member
If people have been paying attention, seen the presentations and read the articles, each company has been focused of these particular features:

SONY: SSD, ease of development and audio.
Microsoft: power (high fps, RT, etc.) and compatibility.
Agreed.

Microsoft just threw the best tech they could in the box and said to developers go for it.

It sounds like PS5 is more custom built whether as XSX is just a bunch of compatible components thrown together like you would when you build a PC.
 
More than the tflops the elephant in the room is RAM it's BW. They should have gone with 16gps like all the GPU releasing this year are going to be.
I think they should kept with the symmetrical RAM design and gone 20GB. Notwithstanding the PS5 HW I/O improvements, i think its plenty fast enough in reality. having to bifurcate RAM between a 3.5 GB @336 and 10GB @560 is just weird.
 
Agreed.

Microsoft just threw the best tech they could in the box and said to developers go for it.

It sounds like PS5 is more custom built whether as XSX is just a bunch of compatible components thrown together like you would when you build a PC.

Its hard to square that with the fact that they have custom HW in their I/O pipeline specifically to enable high bandwidth asset location fetch and discard. They also have a custom HW built for I/O...
 
Agreed.

Microsoft just threw the best tech they could in the box and said to developers go for it.

It sounds like PS5 is more custom built whether as XSX is just a bunch of compatible components thrown together like you would when you build a PC.
This kind of rhetoric needs to stop. Why is it so important to paint MS engineers like a bunch of wannabes that don't seem to know what they are doing? This is beyond stupid.
 
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Shin

Banned
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Kumomeme

Member
like the other said above, with both console pro and cons,

ps5=details and audio
xsx=resolution, fps, raytracing

the midgen refresh surely will adressed the weakness each of these console..ps5 pro will added higher tf, better ray tracing and resolution while xsx refresh will adressed what it lack which is ssd speed and probably audio(but we dont know much of their current solution yet)
 
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This kind of rhetoric needs to stop. Why is it so important to paint MS engineers like a bunch of wannabes that don't seem to know what they are doing? This is beyond stupid.

It predicates itself off of the history with both companies, to an extent. Sony of the past always had some type of innovation in tech development, whether it was Betamax, Compact Disc, Walkman, Trinitron, Blu-Ray etc. Granted, Betamax was beaten by VHS (and for as many advantages Betamax had over VHS, VHS had over Betamax), the CD was a joint initiative between Sony & Philips, Blu-Ray was a joint initiative between Sony and numerous other partners, Cell was a joint initiative between Sony, IBM and Toshiba, etc. But still, it's a rather impressive pedigree.

MS's history is mostly tied to PCs (consumer and business), and I think a lot of people tend to look at PCs of today and mistakenly assume PCs of 20 or so years ago were similarly "samey" in terms of architecture or hardware. They weren't. And that doesn't even begin to touch on microcomputers, a lot of which were as unique in hardware design as game consoles of the day, let alone any modern console. MS has a history of developing software for those more esoteric PC hardware of the day and making compatible versions for some microcomputers. By the time they got into making their own hardware such as with the OG Xbox, even that system had a decent number of non-standard chips and hardware even if the design was influenced by PCs of the day (which you could say was forward-thinking because, well, look at where the consoles are today x3).

Here's the thing; if MS just wanted to throw a bunch of PC parts into a console shell box, they could've done that in a much cheaper approach than what they're doing with XSX. Just because they are leveraging API and other technologies that are or will be present upon the PC environment does not mean they are simply making a next-gen Steam Box, slapping in some MSI motherboard and some off-the-shelf PSU or generic NVMe, let alone simply some version of Windows 10 into the thing. It's a massive oversimplification of what they are doing with the system design, and tries to pretend that Sony isn't heavily leveraging PC architectural hardware in their designs either (mainly from those who are infatuated with the older systems which had in-house hardware along the "big" system components like GPU and CPU in the GE, EE, Cell etc.).
 

longdi

Banned
Agreed.

Microsoft just threw the best tech they could in the box and said to developers go for it.

It sounds like PS5 is more custom built whether as XSX is just a bunch of compatible components thrown together like you would when you build a PC.

weird way of putting things...when MS is the one providing more open information to the likes of DF.
While Sony is the one being 'specs shifty' at worst and very 'SSD focus' at best.
 
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Xplainin

Banned
If people call the PS5's 10.3 weak because Xbox Series X is 12, then the Xbox Series X which is half the speed of PS5, must be weak. That 50% difference is a lot bigger than the difference between 10.3 and 12.
Its just not. The PS5 will have quicker load times, and should be able to do resumes quicker than the XSX, but the SSD speed difference isnt going to to show a difference in textures, frames or detail.
The GPU draws the images, not the SSD. The RAM feeds the data to the GPU.
The PS5 has a slower RAM speed to the GPU of 120gbs than the XSX. So I guess that means the PS5 is bottlenecked by its RAM bandwidth?
Both systems RAM and SSD speeds will be fine. Sony and MS have spent millions making sure there isn't bottlenecks in their systems.
 
It’s so strange to see gamers downplaying technology that will help make games better. That this tech exists is an objective good, there is no downside, only upside. There is no other consumer solution that compares to this setup, and we should want companies to push the boundaries of technology for our benefit.

Yep, and pretty much what Tim Sweeney was saying as well, if this novel storage solution ends up being a significant benefit, why would we not want its boundaries pushed and the ideas to make it other platforms eventually, rather than downplaying it? I mean, obviously fanboyism, but apart from that. I'm excited for both, cool, yeah, a 17% GPU advantage is significant, but there's just not that much to talk about there, where much faster, much more direct access from a really fast SSD directly into GPU memory space with all the bottlenecks in between taken care of is a much more interesting thing to think about how it would rearchitect game design.





This is such an odd statement... Microsoft Nvidia and AMD all came together to design DirectX12U. They know exactly what the ins and outs of the i/o subsystems and GFX card perf scales are going to be in the future. MS is a strategic tech partner of both Nvidia and AMD in the PC space... im sure they had a hand in XVA.
 

noise36

Member
I see he ignored the most important question of all, which would clear up a lot of FUD.

That is because he doesn't know.

Nothing he said hasn't already been said here or at resetera every day since the UE5 demo.

What people actually want is a like for like comparison, digital foundry face off style, but it doesn't exist and probably wont until the systems are released.
 
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Dante83

Banned
If people call the PS5's 10.3 weak because Xbox Series X is 12, then the Xbox Series X which is half the speed of PS5, must be weak. That 50% difference is a lot bigger than the difference between 10.3 and 12.

The more powerful cpu/gpu/faster RAM/better texture compression tech from the XSX would make the differences bigger than just a faster SSD from the PS5. How does a faster SSD make up for all of that? How can that cover up the differences in frame rates and resolution? This is not a bash on ps5, but I am just curious.
 

Justin9mm

Member
weird way of putting things...when MS is the one providing more open information to the likes of DF.
While Sony is the one being 'specs shifty' at worst and very 'SSD focus' at best.
I'm more of the opinion that Sony is holding their cards close to their chest. Not sure how they can be specs shifty, they haven't lied or mis-sold consumers on anything regarding PS5 as far as we know.

I am Team Sony but not a fan boy, I do own a One X and my Pro has been collecting dust 90% of the time.
 

Justin9mm

Member
This kind of rhetoric needs to stop. Why is it so important to paint MS engineers like a bunch of wannabes that don't seem to know what they are doing? This is beyond stupid.
If you took that from my post then you did not understand it. The XSX is a very powerful competent machine. They seem to have done a stellar job. Are they the words you want to hear? All you comprehended from my post was Xbox shit, Sony better. Which is not what I meant at all.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
Why? You still maintain PCIE protocol... Remember the top end on 4 lane PCIE 4 is between 8-10 GBPs raw (pcie 4 has a 2.0-2.5 Gbps per lane top end). That plus XVA would be very excellent.

The proprietaryness is in the form factor.. but it still meets all of the Gen 4 logical and electrical requirements.
I’m not sure what the speed of XSX’s expansion card is but I think it’s safe to say it isn’t a lot faster than XSX’s native SSD speed. However what’s great about the expansion cards is how easy it is to just plug and play them in the XSX knowing that even if you put the games there it won’t compromise performance in comparison to just plugging in an external HDD and storing your games there.

Hypothetically, if the XSX mid gen refesh SSD has speeds of 7GB/s raw, wouldn’t that mean that I can’t directly play games stored in the expansion card with the added benefits of the new SSD because its speed is limited? Wouldn’t that mean they have to make a new type of expansion card solely for the mid gen refresh’s use? I can see the new cards being compatible with the base XSX but the old expansion card will basically function the same as an external HDD on the more faster mid gen refresh.

I am not really an expert on any of this though, and if I’m wrong I’m hoping to learn. It’s just something that’s bugging me since I already decided to buy both base units. I’m just thinking of the hypothetical mid gen refresh and which one to buy. I don‘t want to buy both.
 
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