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Matt weighs in on PS5 I/O, PS5 vs XSX and what it means for PC.

jimbojim

Banned
Where did I downplay anything? I never said he was wrong.

Because you said that PS5 SSD use brute forcing ( which is true ), but XSX use efficiency approach and what Matt said is nothing groundbreaking. Matt literally said that difference between PS5 SSD and XSX SSD is striking for devs and he saw it first hand. That's groundbreaking for me.

For both systems the CPU is involved in controlling the I/O

PS5 SSD doesn't use any CPU resources unlike XSX SSD does. That's why PS5 has I/O complex, GPU cache flushers and other stuff, like Mark Cerny did provide sketch during GDC talk and also in Eurogamer interview.
 
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PS5 SSD and XSX SSD is striking for devs and he saw it first hand.

Kind of reminds me of Chris Grannel and his staggering comment. Except it's something that Matt claims that he's seen himself. Plus he's a mod on Resetera and a developer if I'm not wrong.

I do believe we will see differences but I don't believe 3rs parties will build their games around Sonys I/O system.
 
Because you said that PS5 SSD use brute forcing ( which is true ), but XSX use efficiency approach and what Matt said is nothing groundbreaking. Matt literally said that difference between PS5 SSD and XSX SSD is striking for devs and he saw it first hand. That's groundbreaking for me.



PS5 SSD doesn't use any CPU resources unlike XSX SSD does. That's why PS5 has I/O complex, GPU cache flushers and other stuff, like Mark Cerny did provide sketch during GDC talk and also in Eurogamer interview.
Where did you get your XSX SSD info from? Did MS announce that their I/O complex requires additional CPU resources their competition does not? Did Cerny mention it?
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Kind of reminds me of Chris Grannel and his staggering comment. Except it's something that Matt claims that he's seen himself. Plus he's a mod on Resetera and a developer if I'm not wrong.

I do believe we will see differences but I don't believe 3rs parties will build their games around Sonys I/O system.

I think Matt has stepped back from mod duties but yeah he has been the most consistent on next gen for 3 years now starting on GAF (Pachter thread 3 years ago)

I don't expect many/any multi-plat third-party games to be designed around PS5's strengths but as I understand it the I/O hardware will have benefits basically automatically via a simple to use AIO API.
 
Looks like xsex ssd is just as capable as a high end SSD on PC. Meaning big bandwidth but full of latency and bottlenecks.

He didn't even sound enthused by thr directstorage software api. It's good for what it is I guess.

This couldn't be more wrong. Bottlenecks is this years word du jour. And it really doesn't apply how you think it applies.

There is no "bottleneck less" hw implementation that exists.

Think of it like this:

You think the UE5 demo is incredible yes? Why? It is a mixed Sw/Hw solution thats heavy on software treatments to achieve its visual goals. Their software solutions in a great many cases outperforms the hw in the PS5 and was coded to enable that specifically. You say no bottlenecks.

XSX has at least as much HW and SW to achieve the same goals. But for some reason when MS uses software to outperform some HW limitations you take the exact opposite position and say that its a bottle neck and weaker.

You can't have two different perspectives on the same exact approach.

Thats childish.
 
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Where did you get your XSX SSD info from? Did MS announce that their I/O complex requires additional CPU resources their competition does not? Did Cerny mention it?
Its because directstorage uses 1/10 of 1 faster zen Core to manage I/O... so now the XSX has a weaker I/O implementation.

XSX has CPU cycles to spare...
 
Ofc UE5 has optimized their engine for PS5's SSD, they want devs to use their engine, even on PS5 exclusives, so Epic can make even more money, kinda obvious.
What he meant by 3rd parties can't leverage PS5's SSD is the fact that it would break the game if you use the PS5's SSD in a way other platforms can't keep up. So they can't make something that would break the game if SSD speed was lower than a set target. (dependencies in other components/modules etc.)

So define what's "breaking the game"? Because, again, game development on major titles is quite scalable these days, provided the money is there to enable it. I'm not saying it would remove every difficulty for developers, but at the very least it would greatly ease the process for them to harness the hardware features in a way that's manageable if the engine itself can help them scale performance across platforms which I'd expect a next-gen game engine from Epic to be able to do.

Here's the thing; if stuff like resolution, graphic textures, character model polygon density, lighting effects, physics systems, particle systems, AI etc. are greatly scalable, why would I/O feature sets suddenly not be? Those other things are dealing with processor complex doing much more work than the SSD I/O yet are pretty scalable depending on how a game is programmed beforehand (plus tools and engines have enabled better scalability on those things).

I just can't see how it will be so difficult for 3rd-parties to leverage the I/O features of PS5 in multi-platform releases, especially the major ones, in ways that are also very much scalable to other platforms without require massive rewrites of code or game design. And this would be an overall net benefit for all game developers on the engine. Epic seemingly wants to make I/O API tools as scalable and flexible in their engine design as any other type of technological feature, it shouldn't be impossible for them to implement. Otherwise if only 1st-parties would be able to leverage the I/O advantages of Sony's solution outside of faster loading times, I really don't think Sony would've bothered investing so much into such a solution in the first place.

The same can be said for MS; I'm sure they are working with engine devs like Epic to ensure 3rd-parties can use such engines to tap into their hardware's advantages as best as possible, and as easily as possible. Some aspects of MS's design may not necessarily translate as well to providing simple/easy access of exposure to devs through an engine like Unreal due to facets of its architecture being a bit more complex, but the vast majority of the hardware features I'm sure they want to ensure can be used relatively easily in the engine. Especially considering MS studios tend to gravitate to Unreal anyway.
 
I compare it to dragon ball super

While moving Vegeta was using Super Saiyan Red but while attacking, he was using Super Saiyan Blue. There's a reason behind this, Super Saiyan Blueuses so much Stamina and is slower than Red form, while on the other handSuper Saiyan Red gives more stamina and is faster than Blue form, but less power compared Blue

ps5 is super saiyan red

Series x is super saiyan blue
 

Dnice1

Member
All those "verified" folks on era have been so wrong. They all fell on that 13TF sword. Now SSD is the be all end all since it the only advantage their plastic box of choice has. Can't wait for these things to come out so all the conjecture can end.
 
All those "verified" folks on era have been so wrong. They all fell on that 13TF sword. Now SSD is the be all end all since it the only advantage their plastic box of choice has. Can't wait for these things to come out so all the conjecture can end.

Who, you mean just that one Kleemfam guy on Era? I can't think of anyone else. The ones that have fallen on their sword aside from him that I remember were two from Neogaf: Osiris and Tom can't remember his surname wind-up merchant.
 
Because you said that PS5 SSD use brute forcing ( which is true ), but XSX use efficiency approach and what Matt said is nothing groundbreaking. Matt literally said that difference between PS5 SSD and XSX SSD is striking for devs and he saw it first hand. That's groundbreaking for me.



PS5 SSD doesn't use any CPU resources unlike XSX SSD does. That's why PS5 has I/O complex, GPU cache flushers and other stuff, like Mark Cerny did provide sketch during GDC talk and also in Eurogamer interview.

Can you provide a link?

I thought Matt was talking in general about the benefit of SSD's being "striking"
 

martino

Member
I compare it to dragon ball super

While moving Vegeta was using Super Saiyan Red but while attacking, he was using Super Saiyan Blue. There's a reason behind this, Super Saiyan Blueuses so much Stamina and is slower than Red form, while on the other handSuper Saiyan Red gives more stamina and is faster than Blue form, but less power compared Blue

ps5 is super saiyan red

Series x is super saiyan blue

using colors naming saiyan forms
ColdRealisticArabianoryx-size_restricted.gif
 

jimbojim

Banned
Where did you get your XSX SSD info from? Did MS announce that their I/O complex requires additional CPU resources their competition does not? Did Cerny mention it?


Andreew Goossen, the XSX architect, said that in EG interview
 
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jimbojim

Banned
Can you provide a link?

I thought Matt was talking in general about the benefit of SSD's being "striking"

It's in the OP.

Anyway :

His post

 
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geordiemp

Member
It's in the OP.

Anyway :

His post


Also tim talked about future developments on IO

 
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ToadMan

Member
I see he ignored the most important question of all, which would clear up a lot of FUD.

But that is a silly question.

I can run Civ6 on a switch... would you say its comparable to the PS4/xb1 or even PC version?

Yeah its great to play it there, I can claim its feature complete. But there are clearly technical trade offs that have been made to bring it there. So yeah, in this case you'd say Switch is just as "powerful" as PS4, xb1 and even PC because I can play the same game.

It's not a robust question - it's entirely down to how one defines the terms of the question. I noticed that guy Issen getting increasingly desperate in his questioning to try and get an answer from Matt he liked - this was one such example.
 

ToadMan

Member
If people have been paying attention, seen the presentations and read the articles, each company has been focused on these particular features:

SONY: SSD, ease of development and audio.
Microsoft: power (high fps, RT, etc.) and compatibility.

This isn't really an accurate summary.

Yes Sony have produced their class leading SSD technology.

Both companies have worked to provide systems that offer "high power" and they've both succeeded as far as anyone can tell right now. The flops difference isn't going to be practically obvious to anyone.
 

ToadMan

Member
True, I get you, but it’s the same reason why the opposite end won’t admit the XsX’s SSD is still pretty fast.

I’ve seen @Vawn straight up call it “weak,” which is ridiculous IMO. PS5’s SSD and I/O are clearly the superior between the two but that doesn’t make the slower solution bad or “weak.” One is just ridiculously fast/engineered.

Well Ok, but people can't help making comparisons to equivalent hardware.

When one of the 2 consoles being released this year has a 50% slower transfer rate on a major new tech piece - that's pretty big...

I mean if Sony had produced a 24tflop machine vs xsex 12 - that would've been massive news and people would be saying that Sony had jumped a gen in terms of gpu power.

It's only because we've yet to really get a handle on what a 2x times speed SSD hardware will mean that we aren't framing in those terms. But yeah - it's fair to say xsex has a slow SSD solution by comparison..
 

Karak

Member
Thats Matt H formally from Playstation and yes while he worked for them he is also about as agnostic on platforms as you could be and is awesome, knowledgable, and won't just throw down details. He has clarified a couple of things for me as well when we talk. Insanely knowledge dude on all front.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
Thats Matt H formally from Playstation and yes while he worked for them he is also about as agnostic on platforms as you could be and is awesome, knowledgable, and won't just throw down details. He has clarified a couple of things for me as well when we talk. Insanely knowledge dude on all front.

He’s the real deal. He also praises both consoles and their advantages.

Some people just don’t like the hand being dealt, even though it’s the hand they prayed for.

edit: You got the wrong Matt I think
 
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Can you provide a link?

I thought Matt was talking in general about the benefit of SSD's being "striking"

That's what I gathered as well, and is the more sensible conclusion to take.

Also people are a bit misinformed on the role of the CPU for both systems in terms of I/O. On PS5 the CPU still somewhat has to be used but in the most basic aspect of instructing the I/O block on what to do, and then have the I/O block handle the rest. The XSX uses 1/10th of a single core, which is very likely the same core reserved for the OS, to handle some of the I/O stack management.

XSX's approach being more "conventional" can be gauged more in terms of the fact the actual speeds are a bit more traditional for SSDs on the market right now, whereas PS5 will very likely have the fastest SSD in a consumer electronics device by the time it launches (though Sabrent could maybe deliver something slightly faster by then, if we're just talking about paper specs).
 

sircaw

Banned
Its not too hard to figure out

Ps5 games will stream high quality assets and models will be more detailed.

XSX will have better ray tracing, slight TF advantage.

Some 3rd parties wont bother much, samey

MS first party will push ray tracing and go for frame rate

Sony first party will push high details and more photorealistic

No console is da best, depends what the task is ....and first parties will use features which benefit the hardware...and 3rd parties will make games..

All opinion IMO

This Post looks pretty solid to me.

I would think that most logical thinking people on this forum would agree and see it from this perspective.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
That's what I gathered as well, and is the more sensible conclusion to take.

He’s not and no, it’s not the most sensible conclusion if you’re reading what he wrote.

He’s replying to a warrior who is fighting against the notion of the PS5 I/O being anything too meaningful. Not unlike many around here.

It follows this:

I’m saying it.

It’s so strange to see gamers downplaying technology that will help make games better. That this tech exists is an objective good, there is no downside, only upside. There is no other consumer solution that compares to this setup, and we should want companies to push the boundaries of technology for our benefit.

You know, downplaying? I get it. But it has become a trend to see some of you using a great amount of creative liberty when it comes to interpretation of text.
 

ToadMan

Member
The more powerful cpu/gpu/faster RAM/better texture compression tech from the XSX would make the differences bigger than just a faster SSD from the PS5. How does a faster SSD make up for all of that? How can that cover up the differences in frame rates and resolution? This is not a bash on ps5, but I am just curious.

There won't be a practical difference in frame rates or resolution - the 2 are too close in terms of capability and performance...
 
Thats Matt H formally from Playstation and yes while he worked for them he is also about as agnostic on platforms as you could be and is awesome, knowledgable, and won't just throw down details. He has clarified a couple of things for me as well when we talk. Insanely knowledge dude on all front.
:messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
All those "verified" folks on era have been so wrong. They all fell on that 13TF sword. Now SSD is the be all end all since it the only advantage their plastic box of choice has. Can't wait for these things to come out so all the conjecture can end.
He was the one who said Xbox Series X was going to be slightly more powerful before the spec reveals.
 
It's in the OP.

Anyway :

His post


Just read it all and yes, he's talking about the benefits of a SSD in general as being striking. No where does he imply that the difference between PS5 and XSX's SSD being "striking"
 

ToadMan

Member
Ps5 will have faster loading times (assuming io is a bottleneck and not decompression)


Has the ROP count been confirmed for series X? If not you cant say ps5 had more pixel fillrate.

Should be 64... based on the TFlops number unless they're calculating flops in some other way. Presumably PS5 is the same.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
Just read it all and yes, he's talking about the benefits of a SSD in general as being striking. No where does he imply that the difference between PS5 and XSX's SSD being "striking"

Lie.

He’s talking about the PS5 in a PS5 thread. He says there’s no comparison between PS5 and others, and it’s the largest single difference there is between both systems.
 
This isn't really an accurate summary.

Yes Sony have produced their class leading SSD technology.

Both companies have worked to provide systems that offer "high power" and they've both succeeded as far as anyone can tell right now. The flops difference isn't going to be practically obvious to anyone.

I disagree. XSX is more capable of doing Ray Tracing for example. Ray Tracing can completely change the look of a game. Lighting is very important.

Having steadier framerates is extremely important.
 
Lie.

He’s talking about the PS5 in a PS5 thread. He says there’s no comparison between PS5 and others, and it’s the largest single difference there is between both systems.

Thats not a lie. I read it and its context and thats my take on it and i trust my opinion above yours. The topic is mostly about SSD in general and how they will benefit games in the future. He is responding to naysayers who are dismissing the SSDs in general, not just PS5's SSD

In regards to PS5 specifically, he states its "fucking fast"
 
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Marlenus

Member
Should be 64... based on the TFlops number unless they're calculating flops in some other way. Presumably PS5 is the same.

You don't calculate rops, they are independent units. The 64CU radeon 7 has 64 rops and so does the 36CU rx5700.

In existing RDNA based architectures there are 32 rops per shader engine. Navi 10 based parts use 2 shader engines and navi 14 based parts use 1. The fact that existing designs have been done this way is due to balancing rather than due to the fact that 1 shader engine is limited to 32 rops.
 

Exodia

Banned
Looks like xsex ssd is just as capable as a high end SSD on PC. Meaning big bandwidth but full of latency and bottlenecks.

He didn't even sound enthused by thr directstorage software api. It's good for what it is I guess.

Because he doesn't know what it is. Even Tim talked about how DirectStorage will eliminate GPU overhead. Matt has no clue. I can't believe people are listening to him.

DirectStorage is literally THE game changer when it comes to PCs. It not only reduces CPU overhead but also "Our new DirectStorage API which provides developers with direct low-level access to the nvme controller" MS Project Manager Jason Ronald.

This is literally why its called "DIRECT" "STORAGE".
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Just read it all and yes, he's talking about the benefits of a SSD in general as being striking. No where does he imply that the difference between PS5 and XSX's SSD being "striking"


He's talking about the SSD & I\O
I don’t know who has been giving that “general narrative,” but it’s nonsense. Both systems have areas they shine in, with the SX being more “powerful” in the traditional sense and the PS5 having a clear IO advantage. Overall these consoles are closer to each other than any two ever have been before.


There is no comparison.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the SX’s IO or the speed you can get on a PC, and moving to any SSD based solution as a baseline is an incredible upgrade over the past that all games and gamers will benefit from.

But the PS5’s IO is on another level. It does basically everything significantly faster than any competition in the consumer space. It is easily and by far the largest difference between the two next gen consoles.
 

Kumomeme

Member
I compare it to dragon ball super

While moving Vegeta was using Super Saiyan Red but while attacking, he was using Super Saiyan Blue. There's a reason behind this, Super Saiyan Blueuses so much Stamina and is slower than Red form, while on the other handSuper Saiyan Red gives more stamina and is faster than Blue form, but less power compared Blue

ps5 is super saiyan red

Series x is super saiyan blue
as i recall red never been slower than blue...it just blue better at everything other than stamina, which is easier to maximized the power without running out of gas

how about Hit is the ps5? the time skip basically the superfast ssd but goku's SSB is actually stronger at everything and Hit power only invincible on those who are weaker than him, for those who same or stronger than him, the 1/10 persec time skip can be somehow negated or challenged by the stronger opponent sheer speed that resulted from power differences, which is represented the tf advantages xsx has

there differences in explanation in anime vs manga though

eitherway im simple man...i give like wherever i see dragon ball comparison
 
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