May 20 - Draw Mohammed Day

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Ashes1396 said:
God you drag my poor bones into this argument. You drive a hard bargain!
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No worries, I'll bail out any second now so it'll be an easy win. In my mind as well, since I'll never see your reply.

Man that fake proxy mindgame strat really enlightened me.
 
MIMIC said:
Yeah the South Park episodes were funny but a draw Muhammad Day? That's so fucking stupid and immature. Where a "Let's Get Rid of the Patriot Act" day? Then again, you won't be able to draw silly pictures and get a few laughs.
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Already stated, but it should be emphasized that Dubya (and his national security policy) was constantly mocked and caricatured by political cartoonists, save for maybe the 3 months from September to December 01.
 
msv said:
I'm interested to see what your moral consists of in defending the big, but not the small.
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You formed a conclusion I did not give sir. Why indeed would I not defend the small? And please do me the good service of not drawing out any other conclusions that I do not expressly give.
I see and understand what your analogy was about and inferred. I was merely implying that your analogy was a bad one in a humorous lighthearted way because it oversimplified the situation, in my opinion. This is known commonly as the reductive fallacy. It is not direct opposition to your analogy.
Further, I don't believe in a carte blanche right for the freedom of expression. I will judge my defense or opposition to any matter on a case by case basis.
If we are talking about paper ideals, I do believe in the market of ideas. Good ideas ride to the top and bad ideas fall away.
 
RiskyChris said:
You're not saying why you're just stating a fact.

Why is a nation 1st world? Prosperity. Why is a nation prosperous? It's in the first world.
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It's pretty simple people need to have certain conditions met before they can develop socially. Give them same opportunity to prosper as here and see how they change. Is it a coincidence that high educated Muslims in Western countries are open minded? The development of social norms went hand in hand with economic prosperity or are suggesting our history was just a happy coincidence? For a lot of people in those countries even if you are talented and smart you still struggle to make ends meet. It's simple you are asking cultural development from people who simply don't have the time or the means to develop.
 
Well, some groups are re-acting as you might imagine. They aren't changing their position, they are just getting angrier.

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"A hotline has been set up in Pakistan, asking members of the public to phone in if they see offensive material anywhere. "

"Facebook is a great community, but there are some people on it who are against Muslims and upload these pictures knowing they are going to create anger and hatred"

Sadly, most people aren't aware that intentions of the group is not to directly slander Islam.
 
Jexhius said:
Well, some groups are re-acting as you might imagine. They aren't changing their position, they are just getting angrier.

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"A hotline has been set up in Pakistan, asking members of the public to phone in if they see offensive material anywhere. "

"Facebook is a great community, but there are some people on it who are against Muslims and upload these pictures knowing they are going to create anger and hatred"

Sadly, most people aren't aware that intentions of the group is not to directly slander Islam.
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People in Pakistan are unnecessarily pissed off? Whatever next?

This was in the news yesterday, it was over a Facebook competition, not DMD. I love that "We Love Mohammed" sign. Idolatry much?

As for the bolded, that's just fucking pathetic.
 
2San said:
Is it a coincidence that high educated Muslims in Western countries are open minded?
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Some are and some aren't. The ones who aren't often resort to violence and intimidation to meet their goals while the passive open minded Muslims either sit by and watch or become apologists for their brothers and sisters of the faith.* I almost forgot to mention the non Muslim left wing authoritarian leaning individuals who believe interfering in Sharia law is tantamount to a hate crime.

*Like the Western educated Muslims here on GAF who were arguing against people for condemning child marriage in Yemen.
 
We need to invent an energy channeller. Instead of wasting energy on being pissed of about a bunch of bad drawings, they should channel the energy to chilling and enjoying the days.

Could only be me not seeing how people get so easily pissed.
 
You know, there's seem to be at least a couple of people in this thread who thinks that getting mad at demeaning depictions of religious figures is a trait unique to the islamic faith.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article677221.ece

Granted, the above scenario has most likely not ended up costing people their lives. But people are outraged nonetheless


edit : also, I'm well aware of the suns status as a respected news outlet ._.
 
Corky said:
See, heres where I think my view is different. On the topic of freedom of speech I'm about to express mine :

I dont think for a second this is about "bravery" or possesion of testicles as you so eloquently put it. Rather, for me, its more about common sense.

What the first cartoonists did, no matter how insensitive it was ( prophet depicted as a terrorist, dont forget that. Its not like they drew him like a nice guy blablabl ) they had all the right in the world to do so.

Still with me ? Good.

Now, what the extremists did, was bad and wrong. Note that I used the word extremists, the ones that resorted to violence. Not the regular muslims who have every right in the fucking world to be upset... its THEIR freedom of speech aswell

Sill with me ? Good.


Here we come to the crossroads, where most of you wont agree with me ( judging by the mo-threads in general ), the ones that I think are doing wrong now, i.e literally right now is "you" who keeps perpetuating this, all this nonsense of drawing this and that as somekind of heroic crusade.

Again, what good does this do? Doesnt common sense tell you that this whole thing cant in a million years be solved this way? You think the extremists will go:

- " hey, Bin-Dawg, these fools wont stop drawing pictures of the bigshoot. Lets go home and eat some bananabread. "

1, ONE, picture of mohammed would be enough, take a picture. Regular asspicture, of mohammed just standing and minding his buisness and use it as somekind of metaphorical weapon of speech if you will.

All this, wont do anybody any good other than to give some people a selfmastrobatory aid in selfrighteousness.

" hell yea, I drew a picture, what do you want? Freedom of speech bitch "


What I was trying to get at with this whole common sense is merely :

Just because you can something , doesnt necessarily mean you should. Freedom of speech or not.

I can go out and deny the holocaust assuming its not illegal in sweden ( yea yea godwins law and all that ), but I dont. Why? Because I dont believe in it? Most likely. But what If I did? Do YOU think I should ? In the name of freedom of speech?

I believe that a huge majority of gaffers are non-muslims ( Like me ). I also believe that most of them think this islamic rule of not being allowed to draw mohammed is a joke ( like me ) but I dont understand what is soo compelling about doing something that is "taboo" for a certain demographic that has nothing to do with you.. .


edit : gah, saw Dekus post above, totally forgot about that. Wont comment more here I guess.
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I see where you're coming from, but try to see the other side of this. Because a group tells another group that they can't do something, and if they do there will be violent and fatal consequences, that's ESPECIALLY the moment the other group should stand up and do it.
This has grown beyond cartoons, feelings of offense, Muhammed or religion in general. This is about one group telling another group what to do. And the other group does not stand for it, and rightly so.

Whether Draw Muhammed Day was a smart thing or not, I think it sends out a clear signal that free people cannot be bullied into submission, that the will of the extremists will not be imposed upon decent folk just because they threaten with violence and death. Not posting ANY Mohammed-cartoons anymore would send quite the opposite signal and would open the door for more bullying and violence and death the next time an extremist group gets upset. And history has taught us that extremists tend to get upset quite quickly, mostly because they're constantly looking for a reason to get upset.

Having a day like today isn't the way to make the extremists more sympathetic to our freedom of speech, granted, but then again, nothing is, apart from not insulting or upsetting them. In any way. Ever. For eternity. Imagine that, a world where you'll have to carefully choose your wording and expression because somewhere someone might see or hear it and gets upset. And blows something up. Or just kills you. All because you made the poor man/woman upset.
Sounds like a dream, right?
 
Corky said:
You know, there's seem to be at least a couple of people in this thread who thinks that getting mad at demeaning depictions of religious figures is a trait unique to the islamic faith.

Granted, the above scenario has most likely not ended up costing people their lives. But people are outraged nonetheless
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I'm not sure anyone cares if Muslims are outraged over pictures of Mohammed, so long as they restrain that outrage to political and verbal action, rather than violence. Offended Muslims are welcome to gather (inasmuch as their local governments will allow) and shout all they want. What's not acceptable is believing that outrage gives you the right to either silence or injure the source of your outrage.
 
SimpleDesign said:
Sharia Law by Nessrriinn. Some graphic images but it shouldn't have been censored by youtube.
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Jeez. I see why Youtube didn't want to touch that.

One of the fuckers casting a stone was smiling. If there is a god, and if he's on that guys side, I'm happy to disrespect him and his messengers.
 
Pakistan seems to be getting a bit nuts. Not sure if this is good or bad long term:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/10130195.stm

Pakistan has blocked the popular video sharing website YouTube because of its "growing sacrilegious content".

Access to the social network Facebook has also been barred as part of a crackdown on websites seen to be hosting un-Islamic content.

On Wednesday a Pakistani court ordered Facebook to be blocked because of a page inviting people to draw images of the Prophet Muhammad.

Some Wikipedia pages are also now being restricted, latest reports say.

Correspondents say it remains to be seen how successful the new bans will be in Pakistan and whether citizens find a way round them.

YouTube says it is "looking into the matter and working to ensure that the service is restored as soon as possible". The site was briefly blocked in Pakistan in 2008 - ostensibly for carrying material deemed offensive to Muslims.

Facebook said on Wednesday that the content did not violate its terms.

There have been protests in several Pakistani cities against the Facebook competition.

The Pakistan Telecommunications Authority said it had ordered internet service providers to "completely shut down" YouTube and prevent Facebook from being viewed within Pakistan.

It said the move came only after "all possible avenues" within its jurisdiction had been used.

"Before shutting down (YouTube), we did try just to block particular URLs or links, and access to 450 links on the internet were stopped," said PTA spokesman Khurram Ali Mehran.

"But the blasphemous content kept appearing so we ordered a total shut down."

A YouTube spokesperson said: "YouTube offers citizens the world over a vital window on cultures and societies and we believe people should not be denied access to information via video.

"Because YouTube is a platform for free expression of all sorts, we take great care when we enforce our policies. Content that violates our guidelines is removed as soon as we become aware of it."

The controversy began with the Facebook feature called "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day". Depictions of the Prophet are forbidden in Islam.

A message on the item's information page said it was not "trying to slander the average Muslim".

"We simply want to show the extremists that threaten to harm people because of their Muhammad depictions that we're not afraid of them."

The page contains drawings and caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad and characters from other religions, including Hinduism and Christianity.

"Such malicious and insulting attacks hurt the sentiments of Muslims around the world and cannot be accepted under the garb of freedom of expression," Pakistani foreign ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said about the page.

Facebook said in a statement that it would take action if any content "becomes an attack on anyone, including Muslim people", but that in this case its policies were not violated.

"Facebook values free speech and enables people to express their feelings about a multitude of topics, even some that others may find distasteful or ignorant," the statement said.

A hotline has been set up in Pakistan, asking members of the public to phone in if they see offensive material anywhere.

Islamic parties say they are planning nationwide protests in Pakistan.

Five people were killed in the country in 2006 during violent demonstrations following publication of Muhammad cartoons in a Danish newspaper.
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I'm not sure anyone cares if Muslims are outraged over pictures of Mohammed, so long as they restrain that outrage to political and verbal action, rather than violence. Offended Muslims are welcome to gather (inasmuch as their local governments will allow) and shout all they want. What's not acceptable is believing that outrage gives you the right to either silence or injure the source of your outrage.
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This is a great post.
 
I do think this is more an Islamophobia issue than a free speech issue. Comedy Central's choice to self-censor was misguided, but there was no mass uprising from the whole Islamic community against them for drawing Mohammad (just as we never heard anything the first time they drew Mohammad in a cartoon). One radical blog - with very, very little traffic - posted a veiled threat, and Comedy Central blew it out of proportion, probably for publicity purposes.

This is not a distinctly Islamic phenomenon. Radicals from EVERY religion have become violent in opposition to something they find offensive. Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Jews, etc. If this were an organized attack on all forms of religious extremism stifling free speech that would be one thing, but the provocation of Muslims specifically is Islamophobic in its core. There are a billion Muslims in the world. How many of them violently protested the South Park super friends episode? How many people were killed when South Park chose to draw Mohammad in that episode? How can we claim our free speech is being stifled, when our speech has been distinctly free?
 
SnakeXs said:
Yeah, how dare people protest death threats and bloodshed and the protection of free speech in a non-violent manner.
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The "non-violent manner" is what led to the death threats and bloodshed, so please stop. You act as if this isn't an intentional method of instigation. Protests usually intend to SOLVE something. WTF does this "protest" intend to solve?

This is like protesting for the right to freely poke a beehive with a stick. Yeah, it's you're right....but damn, it's also stupid.
 
MIMIC said:
The "non-violent manner" is what led to the death threats and bloodshed, so please stop. You act as if this isn't an intentional method of instigation. Protests usually intend to SOLVE something. WTF does this "protest" intend to solve?

This is like protesting for the right to freely poke a beehive with a stick. Yeah, it's you're right....but damn, it's also stupid.
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Seems like you've got the answers. How should we go about this?
 
MIMIC said:
The "non-violent manner" is what led to the death threats and bloodshed, so please stop. You act as if this isn't an intentional method of instigation. Protests usually intend to SOLVE something. WTF does this "protest" intend to solve?

This is like protesting for the right to freely poke a beehive with a stick. Yeah, it's you're right....but damn, it's also stupid.
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Exactly.

neorej said:
Seems like you've got the answers. How should we go about this?
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How about fixing the ultra hostile attitude towards an entire sect of people? Do you know how much of the Middle East's problems are a direct reflection and reaction to Western influence?

This day is a PR disaster for the West.
 
RiskyChris said:
How about fixing the ultra hostile attitude towards an entire sect of people? Do you know how much of the Middle East's problems are a direct reflection and reaction to Western influence?

This day is a PR disaster for the West.
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Somedays I think you MUST be a joke poster.
 
neorej said:
Seems like you've got the answers. How should we go about this?
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I'd say the first step would be to create diplomatic pressure on countries like Pakistan to respect human rights and to arrest the extremists who are making death threats or are attacking foreign embassies. You can't solve this issue by internet protests directed at people (often without internet access even) across the globe. It's the governments of those nations that need to be reformed first.

Of course, diplomacy isn't always that effective.
 
RiskyChris said:
How about fixing the ultra hostile attitude towards an entire sect of people?
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Exactly. I agree. Non-believers should not be made to follow the rules of believers or be made to face hostility. I'm with you.

RiskyChris said:
This day is a PR disaster for the West.
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Pakistan isn't in the west.
 
besada said:
Somedays I think you MUST be a joke poster.
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Is there not extreme hostility for (admittedly hostile in return) groups of the Muslim world ?

SmokyDave said:
Pakistan isn't in the west.
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Guess what, both sides are going to end up looking dumb and we're going to progress nowhere and probably backwards.
 
RiskyChris said:
Guess what, both sides are going to end up looking dumb and we're going to progress nowhere and probably backwards.
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You might be right. So be it. The issue needs bringing to a head and burying once and for all. Better that than sweeping it under the carpet and hoping nobody shouts at you.

Islam needs to modernise in order to find a harmonious place in the west. Events like this will drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Killing people because they offended you is some third world shit we can live without.

Count Dookkake said:
I gave birth to Mohammed today.
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No you didn't, you're just being faecetious.
 
RiskyChris said:
Is there not extreme hostility for (admittedly hostile in return) groups of the Muslim world ?
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Gross generalizations make people look stupid, regardless of which side is making them. This movement is no more coming from "the West" than attacks from extremist Muslims are coming "from Islam". In both cases, we're discussing relatively small groups of agitators.
 
I'm hostile to any group that uses their religion to kill and make death threats over a cartoon, oppress women in the most vile and violent fashion, stone homosexuals for no other reason than living how they feel is right and justify marrying children.

I'm not too fond of that silent "moderate" majority that sit back and watch and only protest when people take non-violent action against those scum bags. Not to mention all those that make excuses for people who do those disgusting things.
 
Five people were killed in the country in 2006 during violent demonstrations following publication of Muhammad cartoons in a Danish newspaper.
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This is what has to stop.

Cry and complain, hold rallies, boycott "theWest" and speak out against it, fine. Violence isn´t.
 
SmokyDave said:
No you didn't, you're just being faecetious.
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:lol

But I swear the likeness was uncanny. Especally when I dropped the wipes into the water and they kinda looked like his funny hat and robes.

Now, in the interest of fairness, there was one major difference... my turd never fucked a child.
 
Count Dookkake said:
:lol

But I swear the likeness was uncanny. Especally when I dropped the wipes into the water and they kinda looked like his funny hat and robes.

Now, in the interest of fairness, there was one major difference... my turd never fucked a child.
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The day's still young.
 
besada said:
I'm not sure anyone cares if Muslims are outraged over pictures of Mohammed, so long as they restrain that outrage to political and verbal action, rather than violence. Offended Muslims are welcome to gather (inasmuch as their local governments will allow) and shout all they want. What's not acceptable is believing that outrage gives you the right to either silence or injure the source of your outrage.
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Exactly. I think Pakistans government is behaving a bit oddly, but as long as no one gets hurt, then the day has not been a disaster.
 
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