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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!

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MrS

MrS

Banned
RedSparrows said:
That misses the point he was making. Everyone's opinion is valid in the sense of being an ontological fact. It's the content of said opinion. Political debate would be incredibly arid if we accepted the idea that opinions are substantively valid simply by virtue of existing.
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Perhaps the poster should consider that it's his opinion that's a minority opinion and that he may actually be the person with the dodgy beliefs?
 
J

jonno394

Member
The Cowboy said:
If its bedroom tax related, if you can't afford to pay it, need the room despite what you are told or there is no smaller properties available (which is very common) your arrears just keep going up and you can't do anything about it - so no place to move to + can't afford to pay = eventually evicted.


Yes they will, and lots already have (a simple google search shows this is the case.) - not everywhere/everyone has smaller places to move to.
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So basically they're evicted because they haven't paid their full rent because of not being able to afford it because of he bedroom tax Meaning they aren't getting enough housing benefits? Ok. Understood.

Clearer picture now. Ta.
 
R

RedSparrows

Member
MrS said:
Perhaps the poster should consider that it's his opinion that's a minority opinion and that he may actually be the person with the dodgy beliefs?
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Everyone should be aware of their own position and the relative popularity of their views in the population (if it's possible to gauge), naturally, but none of that prevents him being annoyed with his brother for views he disagrees with, that he considers factually incorrect. What does minority/majority have to do with this situation? It's between him and his brother, more power to him.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
As an American whose first presidential vote was for John Kerry in 2004, I understand how Labour supporters must feel right now. I still remember being so excited for election day, with the polls being so close. I remember casting my ballot, and I remember seeing the exit polls that had been leaked* on the internet showing Kerry on his way to victory. And then I remember the feeling of the rug being pulled out from under me as key states kept being called for Bush and it becoming ever more clear that he was going to be re-elected. I remember having dinner with some friends the next night and how glum we all were. I remember how every Republican celebrating felt like that much more salt rubbed in the wound. There was of course a lot of hyperbole afterwards, including many people saying they were going to leave the country. I never said that but I do remember avoiding all political coverage for several weeks; it was just too painful.

More than anything else I remember thinking to myself "how could this man possibly get re-elected? Can't people see what a terrible job he's done?" With the benefit of hindsight and a clearer head I can now see the reasons Bush was re-elected and why his incompetence wasn't that obvious to a lot of people at the time (although it sure became obvious over the next four years). I don't let election results get to me quite the way that one did any more, but I took away from that experience the raw emotions of losing, especially when you think you have it won. It's why I don't like to gloat about election results and why, no matter what I thought of the candidate they were supporting, I understood how a lot of Republicans felt when Obama was re-elected in 2012. And when they said silly things about leaving the country or seceding, well, I remembered Democrats saying the same sorts of things in 2004. If Labour had won I'm sure a lot of Tory supporters would have said some awfully hyperbolic things.

*One of the differences between coverage of UK and US elections is that in the US exit polls aren't fully released by the media until after the results of the election are known. They'll discuss how people responded to questions like "what was the most important issue to you" but they won't release how people said they voted. On the other hand, the partial results from each state are reported before all the votes are counted and the media is willing to "call" the winner in a given state before the final results are in (infamously, they had to rescind their calls of Florida twice back in 2000).
 
K

King Gilga

Member
It's just weird though, everyone on my facebook is just bitching about the turnout, nobody is celebrating. So where are the people who voted for the winner? Can't find a single positive post, even though they won by such a margin.

Granted I'm in my mid 20s and so are most people on my fb, still odd though.
 
K

kitch9

Banned
Moze said:
I am sure some people were affected by it, but there was still a choice for a lot of people. It would have been worse for certain people in certain parts of the country. Is it perfect? No, but to compare it to the bedroom tax is insane. The bedroom tax literally affects every single person under 60 on housing benefit.

I used bedroom tax as just one example of many i could have used. I used it because the bedroom tax is one policy that Labour were going to get rid of on day 1. That policy alone would have helped many poor people, something that the Tories are not going to do. The Tories are actually going to raise the bedroom tax.

You could argue Labour do not really care about the poor that much. I wouldn't disagree too much, but it is still no where near the 0 fucks the Tories give. The fact we are making Labour out to be some amazing party for everybody just shows how much shittier a Tory government is.
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With regards bedroom tax, who helps your Aunty, brother sister, whoever who can't get social housing because some 70 year old spinster refuses to give up the 3 bedroom house on the basis that they've lived there years and refuse to move?

This isn't a one way Street.
 
D

Dougald

Member
King Gilga said:
It's just weird though, everyone on my facebook is just bitching about the turnout, nobody is celebrating. So where are the people who voted for the winner? Can't find a single positive post, even though they won by such a margin.

Granted I'm in my mid 20s and so are most people on my fb, still odd though.
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Probably don't want to admit to voting Tory out of embarrassment/fear of being shouted down
 
MrS

MrS

Banned
RedSparrows said:
Everyone should be aware of their own position and the relative popularity of their views in the population (if it's possible to gauge), naturally, but none of that prevents him being annoyed with his brother for views he disagrees with, that he considers factually incorrect. What does minority/majority have to do with that equation (reminder: there were 9+ million Labour voters, for a start).
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The post just strikes me as coming from somebody who is suffering from sour grapes over a result that didn't go their way and wanting to take it out on somebody close to them just because they have a different opinion. I think it's a little bit sad that we can't just let the dust settle and stop fear mongering for a bit and are questioning peoples intellect based on their voting preferences, usually while disregarding a person's reason for voting and claiming their decision is based solely on media influences (see posters Murdoch reference).


PJV3 said:
That's a bit dull isn't it.

He should go for it, his brother can tell him to piss off.
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I guess you're right, but everybody hates it when others try to force their opinions down your throat. Now is the time for acceptance! Maybe he should wait for like 4 years before going for it?
 
R

RedSparrows

Member
Dougald said:
Probably don't want to admit to voting Tory out of embarrassment/fear of being shouted down
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It depends. My social media is a bit of an echo chamber for the left, but there are people I know to be right-wing on there, and they have not said a word. Not, I suspect, out of fear or embarrassment, but because those people are those I also know to be apathetic and far less politically engaged. This is purely anecdotal, I do not want to suggest that's the case everywhere, which'd be ridiculous.
 
T

Tak3n

Banned
King Gilga said:
It's just weird though, everyone on my facebook is just bitching about the turnout, nobody is celebrating. So where are the people who voted for the winner? Can't find a single positive post, even though they won by such a margin.

Granted I'm in my mid 20s and so are most people on my fb, still odd though.
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Pensioners mate, triple lock on pensions, all their benefits protected whist all others are cut, the Tory gambled they would get the old vote and they did....
 
R

RedSparrows

Member
MrS said:
The post just strikes me as coming from somebody who is suffering from sour grapes over a result that didn't go their way and wanting to take it out on somebody close to them just because they have a different opinion. I think it's a little bit sad that we can't just let the dust settle and stop fear mongering for a bit and are questioning people's intellect based on their voting preferences, usually while disregarding a person's reason for voting and claiming their decision it solely on media influence (see posters murdoch reference).
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Aye, it is a bit sour grapes, and I agree with you about the problem of questioning intellect or agency vis voting intentions - as if they're all deluded sheep etc etc. I quite agree, even as I understand his frustration (my own brother is unbelievably uninterested in politics, but still votes Tory on the basis of 'get the scroungers').

That said, his brother's views are as his brother expressed them. He can still disagree with those, even if his reasoning as to why his brother has said views is perhaps jaundiced. My own brother doesn't give a toss about legal aid (say) and I can give silly reasons as to why ('he's thick' - he's not), or more thoughtful ones that have nothing to do with the press (other than the 'scroungers' thing, in that he considers this priority #1) or his ability, and everything to do with how he lives his life and what his world view is, born of as many myriad and complex factors as my own.

/ramble (sorry)
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
MrS said:
I think it's a little bit sad that we can't just let the dust settle and stop fear mongering for a bit and are questioning people's intellect based on their voting preferences, usually while disregarding a person's reason for voting and claiming their decision is based solely on media influences (see posters murdoch reference).
Click to expand...

See my post above. Labour went into the election thinking they had a decent chance at putting together some kind of minority or coalition government and instead had the election go disastrously. That can be a very painful experience and people need time to work through it.
 
B

Best

Member
MrS said:
The post just strikes me as coming from somebody who is suffering from sour grapes over a result that didn't go their way and wanting to take it out on somebody close to them just because they have a different opinion. I think it's a little bit sad that we can't just let the dust settle and stop fear mongering for a bit and are questioning peoples intellect based on their voting preferences, usually while disregarding a person's reason for voting and claiming their decision is based solely on media influences (see posters Murdoch reference).
Click to expand...

His brother's view is factually incorrect. If factually incorrect views are not open to ridicule, what is?
 
H

hepburn3d

Member
MrS said:
His opinion is just as valid as yours and his vote was worth the same as yours. Perhaps you just need to be more tolerant of other peoples views?
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Not really sure where I'm being intolerant? His view is fine his facts are wrong:

For me it's simple. Do I want a labour party leading who are more than happy to bring us to the brink of bankruptcy (let's not forget during the heydays), be held to ransom by every Union & finally exclude from its manifesto key concerns from the British public....er....no....
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So he thinks Labour are the cause of a global financial crisis, 5 minutes of research will show you how well labour did during that
He thinks they were happy about it, sure
He thinks being held ransom to unions is unacceptable, my nhs wife has been on pay freeze for 5 years while every one else gets there private pay rises, ok
Labours manifesto was missing too much

My issue is not that he has voted Tory, more that he seems to have voted against labour for reasons that the media have shoved down people's throats.

I ... Can't do anything about it, you voted for what you wanted. I truly hope this government does a good job. I just can't believe how well the press can spin the truth
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
King Gilga said:
It's just weird though, everyone on my facebook is just bitching about the turnout, nobody is celebrating. So where are the people who voted for the winner? Can't find a single positive post, even though they won by such a margin.

Granted I'm in my mid 20s and so are most people on my fb, still odd though.
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I would actually be interested to see the age division for this election. I do think it will be much sharper than most elections, which I suppose would be promising at least for Labour.
 
K

kitch9

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
See my post above. Labour went into the election thinking they had a decent chance at putting together some kind of minority or coalition government and instead had the election go disastrously. That can be a very painful experience and people need time to work through it.
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After a good 48 hours of calling everyone stupid, blaming the system and posting Guardian articles they should get over it...

Hopefully.
 
M

Moze

Banned
kitch9 said:
With regards bedroom tax, who helps your Aunty, brother sister, whoever who can't get social housing because some 70 year old spinster refuses to give up the 3 bedroom house on the basis that they've lived there years and refuse to move?

This isn't a one way Street.
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A 70 year old wouldn't have to pay bedroom tax. Pensioners are exempt. I agree that old people are one of the few groups that genuinely don't need these big houses they are in. Is it right to make them move? I don't know. It makes sense for them to move if they have a 3 bedroom house that a family needs, but i just can't get behind kicking out somebody from their house. It's a tricky situation.

The biggest issue is disabled people. They are the biggest group that is affected.
 
K

kitch9

Banned
hepburn3d said:
Not really sure where I'm being intolerant? His view is fine his facts are wrong:



So he thinks Labour are the cause of a global financial crisis, 5 minutes of research will show you how well labour did during that
He thinks they were happy about it, sure
He thinks being held ransom to unions is unacceptable, my nhs wife has been on pay freeze for 5 years while every one else gets there private pay rises, ok
Labours manifesto was missing too much

My issue is not that he has voted Tory, more that he seems to have voted against labour for reasons that the media have shoved down people's throats.

I ... Can't do anything about it, you voted for what you wanted. I truly hope this government does a good job. I just can't believe how well the press can spin the truth
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I'm assuming the large rises in the personal tax allowance did nothing for both you and your wife then?
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
The bedroom tax would be a far more reasonable policy if there were more council housing available. From my understanding, a bit part of the problem is that people often end up not being able to downsize even if they're willing to.
 
B

Best

Member
I'd really love a Tory voter to explain to me why they voted the way they did, where the reasoning isn't drawn from economic illiteracy, the SNP boogeyman or some hyperbolic fear of benefit 'scroungers'. I guess the only reasonable line that you can take is that you stand to benefit from tax cuts.
 
J

jonno394

Member
Best said:
I'd really love a Tory voter to explain to me why they voted the way they did, where the reasoning isn't drawn from economic illiteracy, the SNP boogeyman or some hyperbolic fear of benefit 'scroungers'.
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I'm sure of you look through this thread there are countless replies to that question.

I myself voted Conservative purely for the shit storm a tory majority would create (in this thread) and have been richly rewarded already /s
 
The Cowboy

The Cowboy

Member
CyclopsRock said:
The bedroom tax would be a far more reasonable policy if there were more council housing available. From my understanding, a bit part of the problem is that people often end up not being able to downsize even if they're willing to.
Click to expand...

Another big part of the problem is there is no proper set rules on what constitutes needing an extra room, you have shared custody of a child (my situation), you need it for disability equipment, you need it for a carer etc you still aren't classed as needing an extra room.

Basically if you do actually need the extra room and you don't fall into a set category, you are still classed as not needing one.

See here is the thing, like a number of the policies (bedroom tax, workfare, benefit sanctions etc) i actually think they have merit and could be used well, but the way in which they are executed is horrible and they really screws people over who shouldn't be.
 
H

hepburn3d

Member
kitch9 said:
I'm assuming the large rises in the personal tax allowance did nothing for both you and your wife then?
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I think I'm not getting point over well here. Your point is great. It's a positive reason. My brothers reasons are all slander against the Labour Party. I just think the press did a fantastic job of making labour "the hated party", when I saw very little from anyone about why The Conservatives were "the better party". It's a little disgusting, I'd hope even a true Tory supporter would see through the nonsense and see that Labour were demolished by a hate filled press
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
CyclopsRock said:
The bedroom tax would be a far more reasonable policy if there were more council housing available. From my understanding, a bit part of the problem is that people often end up not being able to downsize even if they're willing to.
Click to expand...

If there was more social housing they probably wouldn't need the tax in the first place*. It's not just about the homes for me, it's neighbours, community and security that go with it.

If you include people who wanted to downsize or move anyway.
 
T

The Henery

Member
kitch9 said:
If that guy exists why do you think he has a difficult employment history?
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I assure you he exists and is a dear friend. I'd rather not post that story but felt it necessary as some form of explication as to why so many voted Tory despite so many people in this country being worse off under their stewardship. I've seen a lot in this thread post that the result today proves that people only vote in their self interest, "I'm alright Jack" type voters. While there's truth to that, it can't account for the fact the Cons gained so many seats on the last Parliament. It was completely unexpected and quite shocking. No incumbent PM has gained seats and vote share since the mid 20th century.

I don't think there's enough people in England doing well enough economically to justify the amount of Tory support. There must be an element of the turkeys voting for Christmas. It can't all be hard nosed middle englanders with 4 bedroom detatched houses protecting their money from disabled benefits fraudsters at the polls.
 
MrS

MrS

Banned
Best said:
I'd really love a Tory voter to explain to me why they voted the way they did, where the reasoning isn't drawn from economic illiteracy, the SNP boogeyman or some hyperbolic fear of benefit 'scroungers'. I guess the only reasonable line that you can take is that you stand to benefit from tax cuts.
Click to expand...
It was the SNP Boogeyman wot won it
 
R

RedSparrows

Member
The Henery said:
I assure you he exists and is a dear friend. I'd rather not post that story but felt it necessary as some form of explication as to why so many voted Tory despite so many people in this country being worse off under their stewardship. I've seen a lot in this thread post that the result today proves that people only vote in their self interest, "I'm alright Jack" type voters. While there's truth to that, it can't account for the fact the Cons gained so many seats on the last Parliament. It was completely unexpected and quite shocking. No incumbent PM has gained seats and vote share since the mid 20th century.

I don't think there's enough people in England doing well enough economically to justify the amount of Tory support. There must be an element of the turkeys voting for Christmas. It can't all be hard nosed middle englanders with 4 bedroom detatched houses protecting their money from disabled benefits fraudsters at the polls.
Click to expand...

There is, rightly or wrongly, an idea that the Tories best represent aspirational voters. Whether that is true or not is incredibly thorny, but what matters, I feel, is the emotional resonance of it. The issue is then compounded by anyone to the left of them is portrayed as frikkin' communist (ironically, of course, an aspirational idea of infinitely greater magnitude, oh how wry etc etc) in comparison, which is utterly absurd.
 
H

Hasney

Member
The bottles of Punk IPA I've been drinking tonight are more expensive than they were previously. Is this the fault of Tories or SNP?
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
The biggest supporters of the EU have been demolished, it's weird how I haven't really thought about it, the near extinction of liberalism is going to take some getting used to.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Best said:
I'd really love a Tory voter to explain to me why they voted the way they did, where the reasoning isn't drawn from economic illiteracy, the SNP boogeyman or some hyperbolic fear of benefit 'scroungers'. I guess the only reasonable line that you can take is that you stand to benefit from tax cuts.
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I'm INSANELY drunk but try really hard - try to imagine why someone might prefer a low tax, business friendly regime.
 
B

Bumhead

Banned
Freewheelin' said:
Will someone explain to me why Tories want to get rid of the Human Rights Act
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It's a bit of a thorn in the governments side when it comes to certain things, particularly immigration. The UK would have a significantly easier job of controlling its own borders, especially in terms of removals, detentions and deportations, if the Human Rights Act didn't exist.

The problem with the Tories is that, well, they're the Tories. And thus there should be a healthy amount of cynicism involved over what they replace it with actually helps those who DO genuinely need such acts, and stops those who do flagrant and abuse such systems. More likely - in my opinion - would be some sort of monstrosity that fucks everybody over in line with Tory aims.
 
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