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[Jackpot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rwyJVZaj8Sg

The Daily Show post-election analysis.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Think I'm going to be one of these bad loser lefties that everyone keeps talking about and take a long, long break from politics.

The start of the Labour leadership campaign has only made me feel more and more depressed really. I can't help but feel that all the talk of "aspirational voters" basically just means "make absolutely no effort to tackle inequality". None of the candidates really appeal to me, and to be honest I doubt any of them could win anyway. I could pretty easily see myself not voting in 2020, or maybe putting in an equally pointless vote for the Greens or someone.

Already spent a bit of time unfollowing politicians/journalists on Twitter. It's sort of tempting to join some of the protests like a lot of my friends are keen to, but I doubt they'll change anything. Might campaign in the EU referendum I guess, but probably won't bother.

UK politics now fills me with the same amount of despair that US politics does. Just hope the NHS and the BBC manage to hang around in some form.

So... you're depressed that a Conservative government got into power, and as a result you're not going to vote in the next election? I mean, that seems pretty poor logic to me, given that normally you'd vote for a non-Conservative party.

Don't let the best become the enemy of the good, or alternatively don't let the good become the enemy of the not-quite-as-shit.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Lib Dem membership up ten thousand. Clegg should have quit years ago.

 

[Tak3n]

Lib Dem membership up ten thousand. Clegg should have quit years ago.

I actually think they will do well next election, it is almost like the Electrate said ok you took your punishment, now we forgive you..

 

[War Peaceman]

I think the media and commenters generally overstate national policies and understate the importance of local campaigning. Lib Dems have traditionally been strong at that and some time out of the limelight should give them time to regenerate and refocus. I would expect them to grow modestly in vote number if not seats next election. Obviously so much could change from now!

 

[PJV3]

Lib Dem membership up ten thousand. Clegg should have quit years ago.

He really should.

He stuffed the party.

Wouldn't listen to anybody, messed up the coalition negotiations, failed to keep their identity in government, didn't take notice of the warnings that in the first year people were quitting the party and stuck with the coalition until the election began.

He is without doubt the worst politician I can remember. I remember Foot but at least he went down fighting for what he believed in.

Reading Libdemvoice has been comical the last 5 years, one wing of the party was on a different planet.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The Lib Dems never had an identity. The marriage of the Liberals with the SDP was never more than one of convenience. The party simultaneity had Vince Cable and David Laws in government ministries - they have no coalescing mission. I like Clegg, too.

Edit: I also maintain that politics isn't a spectator sport, that you can't govern from the sidelines and that the Lib Dems for more policies passed in the last 5 years than in the rest of their history combined (which was 0 and is now more than 0 - for a "third place" party like them, I don't know what more their voters could reasonably expect).

 

[PJV3]

The Lib Dems never had an identity. The marriage of the Liberals with the SDP was never more than one of convenience. The party simultaneity had Vince Cable and David Laws in government ministries - they have no coalescing mission. I like Clegg, too.

Edit: I also maintain that politics isn't a spectator sport, that you can't govern from the sidelines and that the Lib Dems for more policies passed in the last 5 years than in the rest of their history combined (which was 0 and is now more than 0 - for a "third place" party like them, I don't know what more their voters could reasonably expect).

There's different ways of forming coalition's, he wouldn't take any advice. He played his hand very, very badly.

I'm not even really talking policy, just how clueless he was as a party leader when it mattered. As I say I've been reading Libdemvoice for years and it has been hilarious.

Reality (activists)>>>>>>>>>>>>> la la land>>>>>>>>> Clegg.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think the media and commenters generally overstate national policies and understate the importance of local campaigning. Lib Dems have traditionally been strong at that and some time out of the limelight should give them time to regenerate and refocus. I would expect them to grow modestly in vote number if not seats next election. Obviously so much could change from now!

Actually, you're dead wrong. In this election, the media and commenters overstated the importance of local campaigning - and badly so! ElectoralForecast and 538 published a break-down of why their forecast went wrong here, and the strongest explanatory factor was that they overweighted for how popular Liberal Democrat MPs were locally - when you removed that, you removed almost half the error in the prediction. People really loved their local Liberal Democrat MP this election - and they still kicked them out anyway.

The truth is that local following is at best a very small fraction of the amount of votes an MP gets, and this is consistently born out in every paper I've read on the subject. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but for the most part MPs live or die by their leadership.

 

[faridmon]

Late to the racism discussion, but places in UK differs when it comes to discrimination. Birmingham for instance is quite peaceful when it comes down to it, but places like Stoke are really quite distressing as a black person.

 

[industrian]

Lib Dem membership up ten thousand. Clegg should have quit years ago.

That reaction to the coalition is all you need to know.

 

[jimbobsmells]

BBC have an article on the political will to do something about house prices:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32065625

This kind of shit in the comments makes me all Charlotte Church:

Basically, UKIP were quite right the answer is too many people rather than not enough housing. You can't have increases in population like this year on year through immigration. I am fine though I have two properties.

And he has 15 upvotes to 5 downvotes. Jesus.

 

[Tak3n]

The first law coming in which was blocked by Liberal Democrats

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32714802

The PM will tell the National Security Council a counter-extremism bill will be in the Queen's Speech on 27 May.

The bill will include new immigration rules, powers to close down premises used by extremists and "extremism disruption orders".

Mr Cameron will say a "poisonous" extremist ideology must be confronted.

The proposals were first set out by Home Secretary Theresa May before the general election.




But the Conservatives were unable to secure the backing of their then Liberal Democrat coalition partners for the measures.

 

[Tak3n]

BBC have an article on the political will to do something about house prices:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32065625

This kind of shit in the comments makes me all Charlotte Church:

And he has 15 upvotes to 5 downvotes. Jesus.

I have a cure to house prices, but it would be universally unpopular and the Government would probably never get into power again

 

[PrivateRyan]

So Chuka Umunna really knows his music: https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/503123463888838656

As someone who drew up in the DnB scene, the thought of a DnB head running for Prime Minister is the most strangely British thing I can imagine.

EDIT: If he really wants to capture the young vote Umunna should do a Boiler Room set

 

[PJV3]

BBC have an article on the political will to do something about house prices:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32065625

This kind of shit in the comments makes me all Charlotte Church:

And he has 15 upvotes to 5 downvotes. Jesus.

Nothing will be done by politicians.

I think we're in a bubble, but the conditions are there for the bubble to keep getting bigger for a long time. Foreign investors and immigration are just pumping more air into it.

 

[Vivalaraza]

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone',"

Bit scary, that.

 

[Tak3n]

Tories must be loving this, on Radio 5 this morning program called your call on what Labour have to do...

Completely split, some say more right wing, some say more left wing

 

[Tak3n]

Bit scary, that.

yep, you can bet civil liberties will be getting thrown around a lot in 5 years, Tories saying obeying the law is no longer enough...

anyone who is anti establishment are fucked

 

[Number45]

Bit scary, that.

Uh, wow. As someone who is broadly in favour of more power to tackle this kind of thing (within reason) that sounds all kinds of wrong.

 

[Tak3n]

employment rate at it's highest since records began...

IDS take a bow, you see if you make peoples life a misery they will take any job...

Fuck standards, get the fuck into poundland you piece of scum

 

[Tak3n]

Uh, wow. As someone who is broadly in favour of more power to tackle this kind of thing (within reason) that sounds all kinds of wrong.

and you can bet your bottom dollar protests will be encompassed in there some where

 

[Moosichu]

and you can bet your bottom dollar protests will be encompassed in there some where

It's a disgrace.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

How different do people think Britain would be today if John Smith had ended up as Prime Minister?

Hard to say. Thatcher had curtailed the unions and Kinnock had gotten rid of the militant tendancy within the party itself by and large, so smith would've governed from the left without being hamstrung by the unions.

Without Brown blocking it just because of a hatred of blair, we would probably be in the euro and have been harder hit by the recession, but the welfare structure would have been better able to help those in need. NHS would either have been restructured or be massively in debt.

I thought John Cruddas(?) was supposed to be doing something along these lines for the last few years but I never really heard anything of it.

He delivered it and miliband reportedly ignored it.

 

[jimbobsmells]

Guys is there a UKPoliGAF? I just took a look in OT Community and I can't see anything but I must be blind.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Guys is there a UKPoliGAF? I just took a look in OT Community and I can't see anything but I must be blind.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395269

Will probably be replaced once election fever dies down though

 

[Vivalaraza]

and you can bet your bottom dollar protests will be encompassed in there some where

I don't think they're even trying to hide that fact:

The measures would give the police powers to apply to the high court for an order to limit the “harmful activities” of an extremist individual. The definition of harmful is to include a risk of public disorder, a risk of harassment, alarm or distress or creating a “threat to the functioning of democracy”.

The aim is to catch not just those who spread or incite hatred on the grounds of gender, race or religion but also those who undertake harmful activities for the “purpose of overthrowing democracy”.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Guys is there a UKPoliGAF? I just took a look in OT Community and I can't see anything but I must be blind.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395269

 

[PJV3]

Tories must be loving this, on Radio 5 this morning program called your call on what Labour have to do...

Completely split, some say more right wing, some say more left wing

We don't know where the country will stand in 5 years, I can't imagine what the Tory project will be for that election. There's nothing left to privatise. The BBC will be changed, EU issue settled. Schools have been reformed, the NHS reformed, benefit system reformed etc.

Labour need to just pause and discuss how they go forward. Leave Harriet to get on with it for a while. They can't keep chasing the Tories tail, I would hope even the right realise that's unhealthy from a democracy point of view.

If we end up like the states where any slight leftwards movement is Marxism then the country is going to get unpleasant to live in.

 

[Molemitts]

The start of the Labour leadership campaign has only made me feel more and more depressed really. I can't help but feel that all the talk of "aspirational voters" basically just means "make absolutely no effort to tackle inequality". None of the candidates really appeal to me, and to be honest I doubt any of them could win anyway. I could pretty easily see myself not voting in 2020, or maybe putting in an equally pointless vote for the Greens or someone.

Aspirational voters = middle class people. Appealing to them is how you win elections.

I'm just as upset as you are.

 

[King_Moc]

For fuck sake, those 'extremism' laws couldn't be any more transparent. Push it through by claiming it's all about Choudary, then use it to clamp down on protest.

 

[Chozolore]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32714802

Mr Cameron will say the new powers will make it harder for people to promote extremist views.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'," he will say.

edit - sorry already quoted.

but WTF?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32707357

ukip have gotten themselves in a bit of a tizzy over carswell's short money - they want it, he doesn't.

 

[PJV3]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32714802




edit - sorry already quoted.

but WTF?

I don't think they know what they're doing at the minute. The Scotland and N Ireland HRA issues also suggest they haven't been putting in the groundwork.

It will be like the NHS reforms where parliament has to make sense of it somehow.

 

[The Henery]

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone',"

Bit scary, that.

That's an absolutely outrageous statement for a Prime Minister of a western democracy to make. Has he said that yet or is that the leaked speech? I'm sure that will be revised after a proofread. If nothing else, it's a trite tautology that a PM should be embarrassed to speak. It's also amusing that the Conservatives rabidly cheerlead the shrinking of the state but want to come over all big brother when it comes to ideological/political beliefs.

This whole Labour postmortem leadership thing seems back-to-front to me. Labour needs to work out what the Labour party is for - and work it out in some detail rather than just handwaving. I thought John Cruddas(?) was supposed to be doing something along these lines for the last few years but I never really heard anything of it.

If the answer is to be exactly like the Conservatives except "caring" more then probably the wrong questions were being asked.

I'm pretty sure that a case could be made for a radical, coherent, progressive leftist agenda. But I haven't seen it being made yet. This work, which should have been done in the last five years, needs to be done in the next five. It's not as if Labour will win the next election (because, amongst other things, what are they going to say in 2020 when the NHS hasn't been destroyed, eh?) so they have time to do some policy-making. Probably need to scrap the NEC first though.

It's pretty pointless trying to select a leader unless they are going to do something like this.

EDIT: In the short term, Labour might as well go into bat as the "English SNP" - it makes at least as much sense as Scottish Labour does, and they've got a decent leader already.

Honestly, I don't think the ideological complexion of the party really matters. After this election I'm convinced there are only two things which are absolutely necessary for democratic success in the UK:

1) The support of The Sun and The Daily Mail et al. They're just so ruthlessly efficient at exploiting their reader's fears and at shifting the discourse away from actual policy discussion. They also know how to mobilise voters better than their opponents. The Mail had a simple listed constituency chart that showed who to vote for in order to keep Labour out rather than an urge for what one believed in. That came directly after years of progressively intensifying personal attacks on the leader of Labour and a bogeyman narrative around the economy and the SNP.

2) A media-age leader. Of equal importance to the first reason. Most people aren't interested in even the broader elements of politics let alone the nitty gritty. For many, it comes down to if they think the guy at the top of a particular party is 'normal' and likeable. The amount of comments I've seen that approximate "Thank God Milliband didn't win, can you imagine him talking to Obama and Putin?", as if that was a priority in a general election.. I'm convinced vast swathes of the electorate don't even read a party's policies and vote emotionally based on who sounded better on TV.

On the topic of Chuka Umunna, I think if he's elected leader, Labour have already lost the 2020 election. I'd say there's less racism in the UK amongst younger people but we know that the young don't really vote and I think his skin colour coupled with the name would be a problem.

 

[King_Moc]

I don't think they know what they're doing at the minute. The Scotland and N Ireland HRA issues also suggest they haven't been putting in the groundwork.

It will be like the NHS reforms where parliament has to make sense of it somehow.

They tried to put it through in the last government but the Lib Dems blocked it, for obvious reasons. I find it very hard to believe that they don't know what they're doing.

 

[Tak3n]

Teresa May on TV

Economic Migrants need to turn round and go home..... something tells me the boats don't have TV

 

[PJV3]

They tried to put it through in the last government but the Lib Dems blocked it, for obvious reasons. I find it very hard to believe that they don't know what they're doing.

When they actually get it on the floor of the house and start reading it I mean. Didn't the Libdem's block it from getting that far?

Labour tried stuff and it got messy quite quickly.

 

[mclem]

Actually I've got that wrong it should be

At Scottish Questions in the next Parliament, the Scottish Secretary (the sole Tory MP) will take 6 questions from the Shadow Scottish Secretary (the sole Labour MP) whilst the other opposition (56 SNP MPs + 1 Lib Dem) will be allowed to ask 1 question between them. Other MP's from various parties can also attend but since most of them don't turn up to debates which actually concern their constituents that's unlikely.

Does Scottish Questions traditionally include the fawning questions from their own party? How will they handle that?

"I would like to ask myself how awesome I am?"
"I agree with the right honorable me that I am, in fact, so awesome".

 

[Tak3n]

so reading today that the Tories have a major problem in the lords and they are outnumbered, and it is suspected there will be a lot of friendly conservative lords appointed

 

[PJV3]

so reading today that the Tories have a major problem in the lords and they are outnumbered, and it is suspected there will be a lot of friendly conservative lords appointed

One day we will get sick of that place, hopefully before half the country is in it.

 

[JonathanEx]

so reading today that the Tories have a major problem in the lords and they are outnumbered, and it is suspected there will be a lot of friendly conservative lords appointed

Does each govt just add more of their own to the Lords each time to make it more friendly for them? Doesn't this just mean we have an ever-expanding number of Lords, and at some point we'll have millions of them and we'll all be destroyed by their might no I have no idea how the House of Lords works

 

[tomtom94]

Does each govt just add more of their own to the Lords each time to make it more friendly for them? Doesn't this just mean we have an ever-expanding number of Lords, and at some point we'll have millions of them and we'll all be destroyed by their might no I have no idea how the House of Lords works

Well, some of them die.

My big problem with Lords reform is I am vehemently opposed to it becoming elected - that would just turn it into a second branch of the Commons. If plans for a federal UK come in, that'd be even worse. What I do think is it should be free of party politics. I like the idea of a "council of experts", myself.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Does each govt just add more of their own to the Lords each time to make it more friendly for them? Doesn't this just mean we have an ever-expanding number of Lords, and at some point we'll have millions of them and we'll all be destroyed by their might no I have no idea how the House of Lords works

Basically yeah. The only saving grace is that they fucking die all the time, but right now the Lords is - for basically the first time ever - vastly disproportionately non-Conservative, to the point where it might actually prove to be a problem for them. They can't keep adding more and more Lords (in theory they can, but they already have less room than they need for all the ones they had) and whilst there's a voluntary retirement process in place, there's not much incentive for the Lords to actually take it up.

 

[anonymous_abc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32707357

ukip have gotten themselves in a bit of a tizzy over carswell's short money - they want it, he doesn't.

Well, some of them die.

My big problem with Lords reform is I am vehemently opposed to it becoming elected - that would just turn it into a second branch of the Commons. If plans for a federal UK come in, that'd be even worse. What I do think is it should be free of party politics. I like the idea of a "council of experts", myself.

So who decides who gets in then if you don't want them elected?

 

[tomtom94]

So who decides who gets in then if you don't want them elected?

One in one out; if one dies/retires, pick six Lords at random (to counteract personal biases) and they get to decide who joins in their place. Take a lesson from the Athenians.

No way any party is ever going to vote this in, of course.

 

[PJV3]

So who decides who gets in then if you don't want them elected?

I had a similar idea but it would be different bodies electing representatives for example Unions, trade bodies etc depending on the debate involved.

You would still need an elected by the people part, but it would answer the primacy issue.

 

[War Peaceman]

Actually, you're dead wrong. In this election, the media and commenters overstated the importance of local campaigning - and badly so! ElectoralForecast and 538 published a break-down of why their forecast went wrong here, and the strongest explanatory factor was that they overweighted for how popular Liberal Democrat MPs were locally - when you removed that, you removed almost half the error in the prediction. People really loved their local Liberal Democrat MP this election - and they still kicked them out anyway.

The truth is that local following is at best a very small fraction of the amount of votes an MP gets, and this is consistently born out in every paper I've read on the subject. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but for the most part MPs live or die by their leadership.

Interesting, I stand corrected.

 

[kmag]

Scores of MPs spent £70,000 on new iPads, iPhones and laptops in the runup to the general election, prompting the expenses watchdog to write to parliamentarians expressing their concern.

Sixty MPs ordered the equipment and claimed back the cost shortly before the deadline blocking such purchases six months before the election.

The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa) wrote to the MPs involved to seek assurances that they were using the equipment exclusively for parliamentary duties. Some of the MPs wrote back, telling Ipsa they took exception to the request.

The watchdog concluded that no rules were broken but advised MPs who were standing down or were defeated in the election to donate the devices to charity after 7 May. It admitted it had no power to enforce this.

Ipsa will now consider a tightening of the rules governing MPs who are standing down or do not get re-elected.

A spokesman said: “Having looked into these claims, we are satisfied that they are within the rules.

“This covers purchases made during September 2014, as the restrictions on capital purchases began on 30 September 2014.

“The total value of the purchases for all MPs in September amounts to £71,216.48. We have issued guidance to MPs that they should transfer these items to a successor, another MP or donate the equipment to charity.”

One of the MPs involved was the former Labour cabinet minister Peter Hain, who claimed nearly £2,000 for an iPad, iPhone and PC. There is no suggestion that he broke any rules and Hain has reportedly said the purchases were needed to replace broken equipment.

The Ipsa spokesman said: “Peter Hain bought an iPad, iPhone and new PC in September. The total value of those purchases was £1,907.90.”

Nice work if you can get it.

 

[kmag]

Does Scottish Questions traditionally include the fawning questions from their own party? How will they handle that?

"I would like to ask myself how awesome I am?"
"I agree with the right honorable me that I am, in fact, so awesome".

There's only one Scottish Tory MP and he's the guy answering the questions, I'm not sure there will be a steady stream of Tory backbenchers from England in a rush to attend, but if they do they can ask questions (I believe backbenchers from the Government side get 3 questions)