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[CyclopsRock]

They could have gone C&S.

Yeah, but they'd still have been voting for things they didn't like in exchange for scraps from the table, only in that scenario they'd get no direct influence on ministries or the civil service. That's - to use a page-relevant metaphor - like being Norway in the EU.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You don't need to be in the EU to be a part of that though.

To be a participant in the EFTA, you have to abide by all the EU regulations, but you don't have any say over those regulations. It's exactly the same as being in the EU, but worse.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Yeah, but they'd still have been voting for things they didn't like in exchange for scraps from the table, only in that scenario they'd get no direct influence on ministries or the civil service. That's - to use a page-relevant metaphor - like being Norway in the EU.

I think strategically it would been better for them as a party, though. They get less direct influence but a corollary of that is that they get less culpability. Their proposition power is reduced but their veto power is increased, and people valued the Liberal Democrats more as an anti-party than they did as anything else.

 

[Kotetsu534]

I think almost any Lib Dem would acknowledge that some huge errors were made in negotiating the coalition agreement - sacrificing the tuition fee pledge within months of the government's formation chief among them, the worthless AV referendum not too far behind.

By the way, there's precedent for a confidence & supply arrangement operating in the UK - the situation prevailed in the Scottish Parliament between 2007 and 2011, where SNP budgets were frequently passed with Annabel Goldie's Conservative support after fraught negotiations. It would have been easy for the Lib Dems to negotiate tax, benefit and other policy concessions on a yearly basis in exchange for their support, and much tougher for the Tories to take credit for them (e.g. the Personal Allowance being jumped up so far is surely seen as much as Cameron's and Osborne's doing as Clegg's).

 

[QuicheFontaine]

To be a participant in the EFTA, you have to abide by all the EU regulations, but you don't have any say over those regulations. It's exactly the same as being in the EU, but worse.

A tad disingenuous? Of course you have to abide by EU regulations. Specifically, those related to trade. The point is that other areas are left to the national parliament free from EU meddlin'.

I also think its disingenuous to say that EFTA/EEA members "get no say" regarding EU regulations. It's a line I've heard quite a bit, but I don't think it's entirely true.

 

[JonathanEx]

Slightly awkwardly, I think it was the Lib Dem's own principles that screwed them over. I can understand why Electoral Reform and House of Lords were the big points - but how it turned out, of course they were going to lose, they were effectively only allowed to make their case, not to have them. If they were more realistic about those huge things and focused on the smaller principles that say, resemble policy that would be passed, things may have been different.

Rose-cunted glasses and no real insight behind that, mind.

 

[Mindwipe]

Pretty much where I am on the Lib Dem manifesto -

http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2015/04/15/this-manifesto-shows-the-lib-dems-have-given-up-on-liberalis

(It's a really good piece.)

UKIP's manifesto pledges to protect the Magna Carta for the British.

I'm sure Scotland will be pleased to find out it retrospectively applies to them now. It never has before.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

A tad disingenuous? Of course you have to abide by EU regulations. Specifically, those related to trade. The point is that other areas are left to the national parliament free from EU meddlin'.

There just aren't that many other areas, though. The amount of EU legislation that doesn't concern trade is close to minimal. The EU is empowered by various treaties to legislate on single market legislation; agriculture, fisheries and food; economic policy (mostly for eurozone countries); international trade; competition; and justice and home affairs - and the UK has reserved an opt-out to the latter, so we don't follow that anyway. If we left the EU but joined EFTA, we would still have to be subject to almost all of those in order to participate.

I also think its disingenuous to say that EFTA/EEA members "get no say" regarding EU regulations. It's a line I've heard quite a bit, but I don't think it's entirely true.

Comparatively no say, then. The overall point is that being in the EFTA but not the EU is pretty much definitively worse than the UK's current position, regardless of your ideology.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

There just aren't that many other areas, though. The amount of EU legislation that doesn't concern trade is close to minimal. The EU is empowered by various treaties to legislate on single market legislation; agriculture, fisheries and food; economic policy (mostly for eurozone countries); international trade; competition; and justice and home affairs - and the UK has reserved an opt-out to the latter, so we don't follow that anyway. If we left the EU but joined EFTA, we would still have to be subject to almost all of those in order to participate.

Some of these guys seem to have areas pretty unrelated to "trade"...but then I guess they just wanted to give one person from each country something to do.

Don't get me wrong, I'd probably vote to stay in. I don't see much difference between being in with the opt-outs we have (specifically currency and control of borders) and being out with a trade agreement. And we're already in, so why bother leaving?

I would quite like a referendum anyway though. As other posters have said, it would put the question to bed, at least for a bit. Plus I think our European bros are getting a bit sick of the whinging...

Comparatively no say, then. The overall point is that being in the EFTA but not the EU is pretty much definitively worse than the UK's current position, regardless of your ideology.

"Less say" would have been fine

 

[industrian]

UKIP's manifesto pledges to protect the Magna Carta for the British.

I'm sure Scotland will be pleased to find out it retrospectively applies to them now. It never has before.

You mean the party that have stated in the past that they will punish Scotland for both the independence referendum and for financing our free NHS and universities with "English money"?

UKIP are nothing more than English supremacists hiding behind the idea that they are being oppressed (hence the "independence party" element) and the sooner that people acknowledge this the better.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You mean the party that have stated in the past that they will punish Scotland for both the independence referendum and for financing our free NHS and universities with "English money"?

UKIP are nothing more than English supremacists hiding behind the idea that they are being oppressed (hence the "independence party" element) and the sooner that people acknowledge this the better.

As long as they remain the only party that would actively campaign to leave the EU, they'll have some degree of support (unlike, say, the BNP, whose support was somewhat relient on their brief veneer of respectability). As of now, if you're genuinely someone who wants to leave the EU, you have to either bite your tongue and vote against that, or vote UKIP.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

As long as they remain the only party that would actively campaign to leave the EU, they'll have some degree of support (unlike, say, the BNP, whose support was somewhat relient on their brief veneer of respectability). As of now, if you're genuinely someone who wants to leave the EU, you have to either bite your tongue and vote against that, or vote UKIP.

Or vote for the Tories who promised a referendum?

Spoiler

Unless you are just writing off the possibility of them getting a majority, which is completely fair.

 

[MrChom]

You mean the party that have stated in the past that they will punish Scotland for both the independence referendum and for financing our free NHS and universities with "English money"?

UKIP are nothing more than English supremacists hiding behind the idea that they are being oppressed (hence the "independence party" element) and the sooner that people acknowledge this the better.

There are two kinds of nationalism.

One is a nasty exclusionary version that acts out of spite, jealousy, and mean spiritedness.

The other seeks to make a nation better and actively seeks to make other people want to come there because of its success and inclusivity.

UKIP are, in my personal opinion, the first kind the party of a "Little Britain" shut off from the world. They seem to forget that the UK is built from the blood and sweat of an Empire, and we kind of owe the world at this point. If that means opening up the borders and allowing people to prosper here....fine. More income tax for us to make the public sector better.

 

[Uzzy]

Pretty much where I am on the Lib Dem manifesto -

http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2015/04/15/this-manifesto-shows-the-lib-dems-have-given-up-on-liberalis

(It's a really good piece.)

Yeah, if the Lib Dems aren't going to stand up for Liberal issues in a possible Tory/Lib Dem coalition, then no one will, especially with the lurch to the right on those issues in the cabinet, following the sacking of the likes of Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve. Bit worrying really.

 

[War Peaceman]

Yeah, if the Lib Dems aren't going to stand up for Liberal issues in a possible Tory/Lib Dem coalition, then no one will, especially with the lurch to the right on those issues in the cabinet, following the sacking of the likes of Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve. Bit worrying really.

Well, by the looks of the tory manifesto, the lib dems did a lot to protect liberal issues. The Tory proposals are shockingly illiberal.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Or vote for the Tories who promised a referendum?

Spoiler

Unless you are just writing off the possibility of them getting a majority, which is completely fair.

Well I think it's a pretty open secret that the vast majority of the Tory cabinet would campaign for us to stay in the EU, even if we don't get much in the way of concessions or reform (Whatever that is). You have the odd out-and-outer but generally I think the Tories are in the same boat as me - it's a bit crap and rubbish but it's better than it not existing, so let's stay in.

 

[Mindwipe]

You mean the party that have stated in the past that they will punish Scotland for both the independence referendum and for financing our free NHS and universities with "English money"?

UKIP are nothing more than English supremacists hiding behind the idea that they are being oppressed (hence the "independence party" element) and the sooner that people acknowledge this the better.

I know. I'm just mocking them for spending half their manifesto saying they'll protect a "British" legal system that a) doesn't exist and b) they clearly don't know the first thing about.

 

[CyclopsRock]

We just went for a "power pint" since the weather's so nice in London and talk got a bit political - unusual for our office outside a few of us. There was a remarkable spread amongst the gang. Whoever said the creative industries were all left wing, ball-sapped luvvies was wrong!

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Well I think it's a pretty open secret that the vast majority of the Tory cabinet would campaign for us to stay in the EU, even if we don't get much in the way of concessions or reform (Whatever that is). You have the odd out-and-outer but generally I think the Tories are in the same boat as me - it's a bit crap and rubbish but it's better than it not existing, so let's stay in.

Yep, I think that's pretty much the situation. I also have zero confidence in Cam and Co. (or actually any British politician) to negotiate any sort of concession. What sort of precedent would that set?? Throw your weight around, threaten to leave and get what you want? I can't see the EU wanting to proceed on that basis.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Hehehehehe, a commentator on the Speccie just pointed out that the Greens want to raise the age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14 and lower the voting age to 16. So at 14 you don't know the difference between right and wrong, and at 16 you're voting on macroeconomic policy. Seems a little bit silly.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing the voting age go down. I think about 5 or 6 people between 16 and 18 would vote, and they'd probably be the speccy twats who really care about it. If they wanna vote, why not?

 

[kmag]

Hehehehehe, a commentator on the Speccie just pointed out that the Greens want to raise the age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14 and lower the voting age to 16. So at 14 you don't know the difference between right and wrong, and at 16 you're voting on macroeconomic policy. Seems a little bit silly.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing the voting age go down. I think about 5 or 6 people between 16 and 18 would vote, and they'd probably be the speccy twats who really care about it. If they wanna vote, why not?

75% of 16 and 17 year olds voted in the Scottish Independence Referendum according to ICM and the Electoral Commission. If you properly engage them and don't just pander significant numbers will vote.

 

[CyclopsRock]

75% of 16 and 17 year olds voted in the Scottish Independence Referendum according to ICM and the Electoral Commission. If you properly engage them and don't just pander significant numbers will vote.

Yeah, which is why 5 or 6 people will vote.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Hehehehehe, a commentator on the Speccie just pointed out that the Greens want to raise the age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14 and lower the voting age to 16. So at 14 you don't know the difference between right and wrong, and at 16 you're voting on macroeconomic policy. Seems a little bit silly.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing the voting age go down. I think about 5 or 6 people between 16 and 18 would vote, and they'd probably be the speccy twats who really care about it. If they wanna vote, why not?

Bit of a generalisation isn't it? I was 17 last general election and I was annoyed that I was still a few months away from being eligible to vote.

 

[Prine]

UKIP Election Manifesto 2015

Independent fiscal review of UKIP's Manifesto

Not as one sided as i expected, i actually agree with some of their immigration polices. Some being the keyword here

 

[CyclopsRock]

Bit of a generalisation isn't it? I was 17 last general election and I was annoyed that I was still a few months away from being eligible to vote.

It's (necessarily) a massive generalisation, but there's a pretty rock solid trend - in General Elections - between age and voter turnout, and it's not one that points to a high 16-18 year old turnout.

 

[tomtom94]

16's a perfectly acceptable voting age, and I'd back moves to extend the vote (you can have sex but you can't decide if the government will let you?), but I'd rather a government took steps to ensure people used their vote at the same time - automatic registration, national holiday on election day, etc. Not really worth extending the franchise and covering the costs of getting however many new voters registered if people aren't willing or able to take advantage of it...

 

[CyclopsRock]

16's a perfectly acceptable voting age, and I'd back moves to extend the vote (you can have sex but you can't decide if the government will let you?), but I'd rather a government took steps to ensure people used their vote at the same time - automatic registration, national holiday on election day, etc. Not really worth extending the franchise and covering the costs of getting however many new voters registered if people aren't willing or able to take advantage of it...

I disagree entirely with that (not extending the franchise - go ahead!) I think the steps that are currently in the way are so utterly minimal that if they are really the things making the difference between them voting or not, then I see it as a sort of natural filter stopping people with very little interest from voting - which IMO is a good thing. I don't care what some uninterested party who's given it scarcely a second's thought thinks.

What parties should do - as kmag points out above, though I think the binary decision of a referendum lends itself well to things like this - is give people (all people) something to actually get interested in there.

 

[Faddy]

16's a perfectly acceptable voting age, and I'd back moves to extend the vote (you can have sex but you can't decide if the government will let you?), but I'd rather a government took steps to ensure people used their vote at the same time - automatic registration, national holiday on election day, etc. Not really worth extending the franchise and covering the costs of getting however many new voters registered if people aren't willing or able to take advantage of it...

A national holiday wouldn't help turn out one bit. People would choose to do other things, since voting takes half an hour maximum unless you live well out in the sticks. I have four polling places within a ten minute walk from my house. Convienience is not the issue, engagement is.

85% of people voted in the Scottish referendum because they felt their vote mattered. There are so many safe seats across the country that their is a lassiez-faire attitude to the whole thing that effects even marginal seats.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I'd prefer a national holiday the day after election day, since I usually stay up late to watch the result (and have a few drinks).

 

[Crispy75]

There are so many safe seats across the country that their is a lassiez-faire attitude to the whole thing that effects even marginal seats.

THIS.

Actual PR would get me sprinting to the polls on the day. My vote would count! It never has before!

 

[industrian]

I'd prefer a national holiday the day after election day, since I usually stay up late to watch the result (and have a few drinks).

I agree with this. Election results as they happen and the group interviews are always fun to watch. Someone needs to put this proposal in a manifesto.

 

[War Peaceman]

A national holiday wouldn't help turn out one bit. People would choose to do other things, since voting takes half an hour maximum unless you live well out in the sticks. I have four polling places within a ten minute walk from my house. Convienience is not the issue, engagement is.

85% of people voted in the Scottish referendum because they felt their vote mattered. There are so many safe seats across the country that their is a lassiez-faire attitude to the whole thing that effects even marginal seats.

Additionally the fact that you are voting for an MP of whom you have almost no knowledge completely depersonalises the vote. Say what you want about presidential elections, but people do become invested in the person (positively or negatively) and it does encourage people to vote more than voting for a faceless politician.

 

[industrian]

UKIP believes British citizens should have an in/out referendum on our membership of the EU as soon as possible. Our question of choice will be:

DO YOU WISH BRITAIN TO BE A FREE, INDEPENDENT, SOVEREIGN DEMOCRACY?

Yeah, this isn't a loaded question at all.

Funnily enough it also allows Northern Ireland to still be an EU country.

 

[Mindwipe]

Yeah, this isn't a loaded question at all.

Funnily enough it also allows Northern Ireland to still be an EU country.

It remains a genuine mystery to me how UKIP, of all people, do not actually seem to understand what the word "British" means.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Speaking of which, my plans to host a general election night party at my house have hit something of a brick wall when I realised that literally no one would come.

 

[industrian]

It remains a genuine mystery to me how UKIP, of all people, do not actually seem to understand what the word "British" means.

No, they understand it completely.

British means English.

When applied to Welsh, Irish or Scottish people it basically means "someone from <x> who wants to be English".

 

[ReplacementPelican]

It remains a genuine mystery to me how UKIP, of all people, do not actually seem to understand what the word "British" means.

Well i once heard a bloke in the pub complaining about how you can't say you're English anymore so can you really blame UKIP? They're just victims of the politically correct society which we live in.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Speaking of which, my plans to host a general election night party at my house have hit something of a brick wall when I realised that literally no one would come.

Come on, you know the live GAF commentary will be superior to actual human interaction.

 

[Lo-Volt]

DO YOU WISH BRITAIN TO BE A FREE, INDEPENDENT, SOVEREIGN DEMOCRACY?

Funnily enough it also allows Northern Ireland to still be an EU country.

Wait, so does that mean UKIP also wishes to abolish your monarchy and become a full 'democracy'? How progressive!

 

[RetroDLC]

At the risk of going OT, what you're asking for was not realistic 20 years ago, let alone today. If you're a freelancer, you're going to have it tough to get any mortgage let alone one for 60k, and if you're looking at a reasonable commute from London you at the very least have to fork out another 100k if a house is what you really want. No party is going to make this easier for you.

Twenty years ago the trains would have been affordable for a commute from somewhere with reasonable property prices, but I digress to be more OT.

I'm highly likely going to vote Green still, but the Lib Dems recently vowed to set up a panel looking into the decriminalisation of cannabis. I voted Lib Dem last election, but I was living in Cambridge at the time and they had the biggest dedication to game industry tax cuts, which are now in place... well, ish. The Greens have been for it longer, so now I'm confused as to who I should vote for.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Courtesy of Guido...

BREAKING: ComRes / ITV News Con/LD Battleground in South West predicts LibDems losing all 9 of their seats to Conservatives
0 retweets 0 favorites

Edit: Bit more info:

ComRes poll of LDEM-CON seats in SW England (10-12 Apr):
CON - 44% (+4)
LDEM - 26% (-22)
LAB - 13% (+7)
UKIP - 10% (+6)
GRN - 5% (+3)

GIVE US YOUR CIDER AND WE'LL TURN YOUR BLOOD BLUUEEEE.

Come on, you know the live GAF commentary will be superior to actual human interaction.

That's true. I have a nice bottle of Bunnahabhain to soak in.

 

[industrian]

Wait, so does that mean UKIP also wishes to abolish your monarchy and become a full 'democracy'? How progressive!

The question is extremely loaded in every possible direction.

 

[Lo-Volt]

The question is extremely loaded in every possible direction.

All the same, I saw an opportunity to mock UKIP and I took it. Hope you didn't mind. :-D

 

[industrian]

All the same, I saw an opportunity to mock UKIP and I took it. Hope you didn't mind. :-D

Why would I mind?

 

[WayneMorse]

 

[Uzzy]

So Cameron's the chosen one who'll bring balance to the force/budget?

 

[War Peaceman]

Courtesy of Guido...

BREAKING: ComRes / ITV News Con/LD Battleground in South West predicts LibDems losing all 9 of their seats to Conservatives
0 retweets 0 favorites

Edit: Bit more info:

ComRes poll of LDEM-CON seats in SW England (10-12 Apr):
CON - 44% (+4)
LDEM - 26% (-22)
LAB - 13% (+7)
UKIP - 10% (+6)
GRN - 5% (+3)
.

I think LD voting will prove more resilient than many of the polling will suggest. They'll do ok. Their local campaigning is typically strong.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think LD voting will prove more resilient than many of the polling will suggest. They'll do ok. Their local campaigning is typically strong.

That's traditionally been the case but then again, this was constituency by constituency polling I believe.

 

[Rush_Khan]

.

I love how Farage is a foreign alien (don't know what it is, never seen Star Wars).

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Just like the old days right at the end of Newsnight!

Ha yes!

The front pages are good for prompting chat, its also so much fun to see such blatant biases!