CyclopsRock
Member
Eh? You're talking as if keeping taxes the same is an uncosted item of public spending.
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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!
- Thread starter Volotaire
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Eh? You're talking as if keeping taxes the same is an uncosted item of public spending.
please don't think that is me, I am merely stating that with todays announcement he has drawn a line in the sand, as he is quoted as saying they will pay for it with welfare cuts
I don't receive benefits, earn a good wage, decent profits etc, and will not be voting Tories. You don't always have to vote on entirely selfish grounds you know. Sometimes it's about looking out for those less fortunate than yourself, because you're sympathetic to their struggles, or because you care about better wealth distribution, because you've experienced what it's like to be at the bottom of the barrel first hand in the past, or through charity and community work, and understand how important these support systems are for so many people etc. So no, if you don't receive benefits it doesn't mean you automatically vote Tories, unless of course you're selfish and only care about you and your own.
What the hell? Why the fuck would I do that? You'll be telling me to vote UKIP as they want to cut foreign aid next. I'm fairly well off and don't vote according to what's best for me, I'm absolutely fine, I'm also aware that lots of people aren't.
Burgess_101
Member
Is there a different postal deadline for abroad votes? I never received anything in the post and yes I set that all up.
I am pretty pissed off if I don't get the chance to vote.
I am pretty pissed off if I don't get the chance to vote.
HazySaiyan
Banned
What if I work yet like the fact that my tax money goes towards helping those less fortunate? Not claiming benefits doesn't automatically make you contemptuous of people who do.
let me be clear on this point
Osbourne created a whole swathe of people who hated benefit claimants with his ' closed curtains' rhetoric
"you work hard whilst they lie in bed taking your taxes" remember all that, his demonising of that type of person, all I am saying is they are clearly going that route again because they feel it works, so there must be lots of people who feel like that? or they would not do it would they?
Jezbollah
Member
You've probably seen this - but..
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/how-do-i-vote/voting-by-post
Really hope this helps.
Then his statement today is not entirely aimed at you..
he has made a statement saying his will freeze taxes by law for 5 years, and pay for that by making welfare cuts...
the moment he made that statement they are using their 'lazy benefit people' rhetoric.... now we know tat is false as in work benefits are far bigger than out of work benefits.. but he can say that as it would lose them votes
jimbobsmells
Member
Nice post nib.
My nephew receives disability benefit for severe Cerebal Palsy (which was reduced recently, thank you Mr Cameron). That doesn't stop me getting pissed when I see people walking around on two legs carrying their completely un-necessary crutches for example. I recognise there are scroungers in the benefit pool, so yes it's not on an untouchable pedestal to me, but target it appropriately rather than cut arbitrarily across the board.
When there is a much, MUCH larger pool of tax avoidance loopholes which could be closed it seems like they need to take a step back. 80/20 rule guys. What's going to reduce that defecit faster?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Ok, ok maybe that was the wrong word
Edit:
If all else fails, can't you still vote by proxy? I thought I saw something about that on my polling card.
Burgess_101
Member
I guess I'll have to ring up and find out, it seems like I'm fucked. Not too happy.
I set up to vote by post here in Germany way in advance, I can't believe I never received anything.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Osborne didn't create that he just used it
New Labour did exactly the same, the shits. It is standard right wing imagery since the introduction of welfare, basically. Not just in the UK, too.
I got 99% Labour on that test....
Infinite_Daremo
Member
I'd like to think a family on handouts with no job would stop having children they can't afford as well but that doesn't happen.
My job pays above average for the North East, I'm nowhere near basic needs living and I have savings. I'm paying out the star for a mortgage I'll be rid of in 3 years but that's my own choice. It just seems life is far too easy for people who's sole purpose is to breed.
And again. I do agree corporation tax avoidance is a big deal and needs sorting. They're both big issues. One does not void the other.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Really? Are you sure about that? Is this a serious issue that is plaguing the country?
Infinite_Daremo
Member
Plaguing it? No. Does it happen? Yes. Living in the north east I see it regularly.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides...t-to-win-all-scots-seats-at-general-election/
The SNP is on course to take every seat in Scotland at the general election, according to the latest STV News poll.
A survey on voter intention showed 54% are set to back Nicola Sturgeon's party on May 7, up two points since January.
Based on the findings of the latest poll conducted by Ipsos-MORI , the Electoral Calculus website suggests that the SNP could win all 59 Scottish seats up for grabs. Other electoral calculators project Labour and the Liberal Democrats saving one seat each.
The SNP has increased their lead over Labour to 34 points in the survey. Jim Murphy's party could face electoral wipeout north of the border, with their vote down four points to only 20%.
The SNP is on course to take every seat in Scotland at the general election, according to the latest STV News poll.
A survey on voter intention showed 54% are set to back Nicola Sturgeon's party on May 7, up two points since January.
Based on the findings of the latest poll conducted by Ipsos-MORI , the Electoral Calculus website suggests that the SNP could win all 59 Scottish seats up for grabs. Other electoral calculators project Labour and the Liberal Democrats saving one seat each.
The SNP has increased their lead over Labour to 34 points in the survey. Jim Murphy's party could face electoral wipeout north of the border, with their vote down four points to only 20%.
one of the Tories promise if you only get benefits for the first two children, that will cure that overnight in theory, if it is for benefits
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Living in the North East, you should probably understand that the proliferation of benefit was given as a bribe by Thatcher. She moved people out of industry and placed them on incapacity benefit on a huge scale.
I'm also from the North East. In my district, the youth unemployment rate is 78%. Benefits here are vital, because there is no work for a huge chunk of young people.
The other element to this is, you do not understand people's personal circumstances or the hoops you have to jump through to claim any kind of disability benefit. You can look from the outside and judge and compare it to your own situation but you're really in no position to contradict what has been diagnosed and examined by doctors, and now third party professionals.
I realise your views on this will not change, I would just urge you to think twice before using your uneducated anecdotal views as a sword of Damocles to cleave away the undeserving.
I don't know, personally I don't think a life on hand outs is necessarily easy, not when the benefit amounts are often pittance. It's not any sort of amount I would ever want to live on myself, but maybe that's just because I've become accustomed to much more. The idea of having to micro manage my finances down to the pennies and pounds, constantly worry about what food and items I can or can't afford, always be buying on offers, or cheap foods, not being able to enjoy myself by ever splashing out, eating out, enjoying a fruitful social life, be able to buy others gifts, enjoy parties, holidays and all the rest. Barely getting by would never be my idea of easy, even if it was 'free'.
I do apologise to any who are on benefits here and may have taken offence to my post, I don't mean to belittle your life style. I hope you can understand my post is meant in a sympathetic and understanding nature.
Audioboxer
Member
Damn, that's a major burn.
Just goes to show how effective slander is, aka, be afraid Nicola cuts the hair off dolls!
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
One thing to mention there:
"The poll found 80% of the Scottish electorate are certain to vote, five points down on the turnout at the referendum on Scottish independence last September and 16 points up on the percentage of Scots that voted in the last general election in 2010 (64%)."
80%.
The UK's turnout as a whole in 2010 was 65.1%.
"The poll found 80% of the Scottish electorate are certain to vote, five points down on the turnout at the referendum on Scottish independence last September and 16 points up on the percentage of Scots that voted in the last general election in 2010 (64%)."
80%.
The UK's turnout as a whole in 2010 was 65.1%.
Audioboxer
Member
I'd say that's still very impressive. The referendum obviously felt incredibly important to many, more so than standard elections. Could end up being a once in a lifetime vote for a lot of people.
This arguemnbt opens up a nasty can of worms though. Do you think child limits should be in place? Should only certain people be allowed to have children? Do you believe benefits should be capped after a certain number of children? Will that in turn force the family into further poverty? (rhetorical)
A lot of the anger against the benefit system stems from the misconception that these people are somehow living a good live on your dime (they are not, they live like shit). Usually from people on low pay jobs. Which only highlights the real issue; the low minimum wage (and wage levels in general).
It's also worth remembering the welfare system was never meant to be "you get out what you out in". It's been twisted and abused to have that image these days (adied by government and the media).
I don't even blame people that go on benefits and get to spend the whole day with their kids instead of slaving away in multiple low paid jobs, only to barely have enough to live on. Who would want to do that? There is zero incentive.
Want to give people an incentive to work? Give them a decent wage. It also has the benefit of putting more money into the economy and increasing potential tax raised too.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Of course it's impressive. ;p 80% turnout in any election, referendum, or vote is ridiculously high.
The rise of involvement in politics by the Scottish public due to the Independence Referendum is something I'm proud of. Apathy in elections, while understandable under FPTP, doesn't solve anything.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Yeah but does it matter? You can't accomodate for all types of human activity unless you want the strictest, most byzantine laws and regulations.
Does it actually make any difference on a national scale? I think you'd have to prove it does.
PS. your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. I bet you have no idea as to the situation of many people who you've seen.
Kahneman should be on the national curriculum.
EDIT: your post further down is quite reasonable, good to see someone not double down
I actually stated something along these lines in the last question on that survey "who do you plan to vote for?". I don't know, because not only do I have to worry about the complex policies I need to consider who they might align with post-election. :/
Yikes. This is considered bad for labour right, assuming they won't go into partnership with the SNP?
Angry Fork
Member
American here. Can someone explain why the projections are so high for conservatives? I see polls where they're basically neck and neck with Labour. Who is still voting for conservatives and why?
Also what do you guys think about Miliband being interviewed by Russell Brand? I like Russell a lot but I had no idea he was that kind of famous in the UK. What would be the American celebrity equivalent in terms of status?
Not sure about Miliband though, I agree with his fathers politics but is there any of that in Ed? Is he basically a centrist guy like Obama?
Also what do you guys think about Miliband being interviewed by Russell Brand? I like Russell a lot but I had no idea he was that kind of famous in the UK. What would be the American celebrity equivalent in terms of status?
Not sure about Miliband though, I agree with his fathers politics but is there any of that in Ed? Is he basically a centrist guy like Obama?
Infinite_Daremo
Member
I've never thought of it like that. I don't get involved in politics much. I don't think there should be a child cap but the benefit amount payed out for having children should.
You've given me something to think about though.
Burgess_101
Member
You can but I don't know how long that takes to sort. I'll have to look after work.
CyclopsRock
Member
Well yeah, but I think what a lot of people either don't know or don't appreciate is that tax loopholes don't just appear out of thin air. It's actually super complicated but...
... Firstly, there's no obvious definition of reasonable expenses. I have a friend who occasionally employs me on a freelance basis to produce work for his business. He owns the business, and he has no actual employees except himself. Literally every time we go for a drink or a meal, he expenses it. Because he solely works from home, he claims a huge chunk of his rent and bills as expenses. He drives around a lot for work so his entire car was expenses etc. As a result, he hardly makes a profit, yet has a pretty "rich" lifestyle. Many would suggest he's avoiding tax. But then, I get taken to the pub by my boss (at my actual job) basically once a week. I get sent of work trips which are basically boozy jollies abroad with a bit of work in the middle. These are all considered (rightly, I think) as part of engendering team spirit in the company, and thus an important aspect of the business succeeding. It all gets expenses off of the company profits, though, and it's basically the same as my mate with his own business. So what bits of that count as avoidance? What bits don't. There is no clear cut answer.
Secondly, there's the tax code. Even if we left all our tax arrangements and replaced our 11,500 page long tax code with the sentence "You pay X percent of your income in tax (graduated, whatever). Businesses pay Y percent of their profits in income. Goods have a Z percent VAT added." with no loop holes, you'd still have the problem above. BUT there's a reason our tax code is 11,500 pages long. Let's say Osborne replaced the tax code with the above and looks at the figures and thinks "Hmmm, the North East isn't doing so good. What can we do to help?" and he decides to designate it a low-tax area, and the whole region has a Corp tax and small business tax rate of 15% rather than the national 20%. OK, so there's an extra line we need to add to our new slimmed down tax code. Everything's going well, a few more businesses start there (At the expense of the surrounding areas, naturally, who complain, but never mind). But someone complains and says that the low corporation tax rate isn't encouraging good jobs to form there - there are more endemic problems to that, involving infrastructure, lack of existing industry etc - and that all that's being created are low quality, menial jobs that pay the minimum wage. So George intervenes again and adds another line to the tax code that says that Businesses where the average hourly pay is less than £7.00 have to pay a tax rate of 18%, with a sliding linear scale all the way up to £12ph who only pay 12%. This would encourage higher paying companies to set up there without just being a giveaway to low paying companies. Yay! Everyone's happy, and there's a statue made in George's honour.
But, lo, what is this? The increased business activity is good for jobs, but bad for the environment - some industrial companies have returned to the area, but they're producing a quite significant chunk of pollution. We want those companies because they help to rebalance the economy, but we want them away from population centers. OK, so now we need to change the tax code again - if you're within 10km of a town of over 100,000 people, or within 5km of a town of between 50,000 and 99,999 people, and you emit more than 120T of Co2 p/a, your tax rate gets increased by 3% above whatever it was after the per hour calculations. This keeps most Co2 emitting companies away from towns. But now the roads in these rural areas are being pounded by heavy trucks and vehicles that weren't meant to be supported by such humble road infrastructure. These roads are the responsibility of the local council, but they can't afford this sudden new expense, and they can't increase business rates because it would affect too many other businesses that haven't caused any trouble, so now what's George going to do? Well he could bolt on an extra percent to the rural companies in the areas whrere the road costs are increasing. But now you have a situation where there's about 12 different tax rates within a 20 square km area.
This is obviously a simplified example, but this is how most "loopholes" come about - by the government intervening in markets to encourage this, discourage that, promote this industry or move that one. It's not all "Give rich bastards 15% off if they pay their accountants enough".
THEN you have our international tax agreements and, well, the EU. People, goods and money can move about pretty freely in the EU, which is why you have things with whacky names like "Double Irish Arrangement" or "Dutch Sandwich" - because tax rates might work in the favour of individual member states but against the interests of everyone else. There are some things you can do to avoid this, but it's obviously going to be limited whilst we're in the free maket (note: This isn't an appeal for us to leave).
All this is to say that it's very easy to point at the 120bn figure of "tax avoidance" (which is basically an invented number - one based on solid data I;m sure, but one man's "evasion" is another man's "sound practice" - by the standards used by some, even things like ISAs count as the utilisation of a tax loophole. As long as loopholes are there to prod and cajole, we'll have people benefitting from them because that's exactly what they're designed to do. It's worth remembering, I think, that these loopholes exist for a reason, they were created where they did not exist before for a specific purpose. Closing them isn't as simple as tearing out pages, unless the cause which inspired their creation is no longer relevant.
He calls himself a democratic socialist and is perceived as distinct from the centrist shift of the new Labour years. But he's hardly radical even if some of the papers refereed to him as 'Stalinist' the other day. Some hope an alliance with the SNP will shift his further left.
Audioboxer
Member
Bad, yeah, they'll make you believe that! We were "better together" before the referendum, now that it's over, it's "worse off if Scotland get to send a lot of MPs to London".
Cameron just basically admitted the Tories are going after Tax Credits next (in politico speak, he "refused to rule it out"), so don't think that just because you work you're not still a filthy scrounger living on handouts off the state.
Really glad I'm well off enough to survive another 5 years of this lot. Heartbroken to think about all the people who aren't.
Really glad I'm well off enough to survive another 5 years of this lot. Heartbroken to think about all the people who aren't.
oh god, how long have you got lol
in reference to your first point, Tories have a core vote (people who always vote conservatives) of 35% roughly, so regardless on how bad they do they always poll about that... there is a odd break from this but historically it is always about that, and because of our election system if they can get their core vote to come out and vote they will win power.
they are not really after anyone else but their core voters, it is the disease of the first past the post system
A lot of people in this country think Brand is a pillock, but Milliband is gambling that he comes over as ok and as such get some young people to vote for him
swings and roundabouts though, Labour will raise taxes but leave tax credits alone...
there is no winners here, it is all playing with numbers
Right...but people that are paying tax are far more likely to be able to afford it, what with the income and all. If they actually manage to do something about the "cost of living crisis" (not holding my breath) then other savings could make up for it elsewhere.
That's fair to be honest. UKIP will have polices a lot agree with, it's the odd policy on the far right that ends up personifying their party.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Paying more tax or less tax aren't inherently bad things. It depends what those tax rises are paying for or what those tax cuts are being paid with.
Doss anyone feel as if this election campaign is existing only in the media and Scotland? I live in one of the most marginal seats and I've seen nothing at all besides the obligatory leaflets. It is as if politicians have forgotten about campaigning with the rise of the media and technology.
Doss anyone feel as if this election campaign is existing only in the media and Scotland? I live in one of the most marginal seats and I've seen nothing at all besides the obligatory leaflets. It is as if politicians have forgotten about campaigning with the rise of the media and technology.
CyclopsRock, does your friend claim expenses on the rent of his private living premise, or a separate business premises? Or has he conflated the two? Also, is it the same for his private vehicle? Presumably you mean he deducts it's value from his profits as capital allowance? Sorry to go off subject, I was just curious.
CyclopsRock
Member
Lol, that wasn't targetted at Scottish people. That was targetted solely at English and Welsh Labour voters. That the SNP will sweet Scotland plays into the narrative perfectly.
Well, last year the UK was the fastest growing economy in the G7, our employment figures are constantly out-doing even the government's expectations (in a good way), most people came in to this parliament expecting and backing cuts (and, in fact, there have been significantly less than were anticipated). The public sector has been cut with the private sector growing to fill the gap and then some, to the point where we have the highest number of people in work ever (though obviously population growth help there too). People in out-of-work benefits continues to fall, wage growth is beginning to increase etc. Outside of the economy, crime figures are down, the Olympics went well, there haven't been any horrible gaffes or foreign affair nightmares, university entrents have gone up, legalised gay marriage etc.
Basically, I think that a lot of people (Especially those of us raised in the Blair era) have been raised on a diet of Thatcher the Child Murderer and so people expected a Conservative Britain to be a sort of dystopian, dickensian, Oliver-Twist nightmare when, for the vast majority of people, life's continued more or less as before. Some people had benefits reduced and obviously they don't like that. Some people have had their tax reduced or got a new job and obviously they do like that. I think the whole parliament has been a lot less divisive than a lot of people were expecting (and that perhaps you've imagine from the campaigns). I'm not sure if your question was meant in an incredulous way - ie "why are people still voting for these buffoons?!?!?!!" - or a genuine request for an answer, so I gave the latter. Basically, there's quite a big list of successes to balance against their various failures, and for a lot of people those successes obviously outweigh the failures.
CyclopsRock
Member
He's conflated the two, since he exclusively works from home when he's not "in the field" (he mostly does camera work, filming trade shows). With his vehicle, I *think* he claims the depreciation annually as an expense since he (claims to) use the vehicle exclusively for work (which he doesn't but I also know that if he didn't use it for work, he wouldn't have bought it, so I dunno if that's fair or not). When I was actually freelance full time and did my tax returns "properly", there is HMRC guidance on this stuff, and it's pretty linear - ie if you live in a 3 bedroom house and one of the rooms is exclusively used for business activities, you can claim 30% of the rent etc.
Angry Fork
Member
Took that quiz from the last page:
Thanks for the responses from my other post.
Thanks for the responses from my other post.
anonymous_abc
Member
So when will the SNP start standing south of the border? It wouldn't seem impossible for them to be successful there too.
One way to cut welfare is to get people working though, which isn't really a bad thing ultimately as long as they ensure those who really cannot work are protected.
That is a difficult conundrum to ensure they get right though.
The SNP winning every seat in Scotland is both disastrously terrible for Labour (in terms of the complete destruction of their former power base) but short term probably more of positive in this election battle than scraping through with 3 or 4 seats while the Tories and Lib Dems get 1 or 2 each. That's because the SNP winning every seat in Scotland would put the 'anti-tory' bloc +12 up on seats (11 Lib Dems, 1 Tory), if you add that to 32 seats in Wales which almost certainly won't return someone who'll vote with the Tories that's seats, meaning Labour would 'only' need 229 seats in England (along with the 3 SDLP in NI)
But longer term Labour losing every seat in Scotland would be disastrous for them. I don't actually think that will happen and the SNP will get more like 42-48 seats (I had previously had them at the 35-40 mark but there's just too much polling saying the same thing, and from being here in the Labour heartlands you can see it on the Labour canvassers faces)
That's interesting. I didn't actually know that. Looks like I need to have a word with my accountant lol. I work mostly from home as well, but have not been claiming any sort of rent, or even a percentage of it as expenses. Then again I plan on buying a new house soon, so presumably you can't do the same thing with a mortgage?
I'll translate that for non-Tories. The press is mainly right wing and controls the narrative. Combine that with a large percentage of the populace who don't question what's said and we have a situation where politicians of any stripe can say one thing, really be doing another and be pretty sure they're not going to get called on it at any time.
Lies and statistics is what you can expect from politics these days no matter who forms the government.
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