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[Nickiepoo]

Totally forgot about this one. Does it support the old Sidewinder?

Possibly, but playing with a joystick is pretty sub-optimal. Mouse is best due to the need to aim.

 

[Fireye]

How often does paint go on sale? I'm getting sick of these basic colors and want me some tans/browns/greys/white, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay full price for that shit.

Also if you guys haven't added me yet, add me! 'Vertigo 1' I play pretty much every day.

Paint goes on sale just about every week, or every other week. I've only picked up one MC color, Titanium White, because the PC Gamer Grey is very not white on the newer mechs.

 

[Woorloog]

Do Blackjack arms change depending on the weapons on them like JagerMech's (and Highlander's)?

 

[BattleMonkey]

That moment when you finally hit the sweet spot with a mech build you like. So good.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Do Blackjack arms change depending on the weapons on them like JagerMech's (and Highlander's)?

Yup. Expect that on all new mechs while slowly being rolled out to old ones over time.

Is this related to you wanting a symetrical mech?

 

[Woorloog]

Yup. Expect that on all new mechs while slowly being rolled out to old ones over time.

Is this related to you wanting a symetrical mech?

Not really. Just wondered because i saw a mention that Jager's weapons are visible.
I kinda like JagerMech but it is unfortunate it can't have energy weapons in arms like Rifleman. Tried out the trial Jager, reliance on ballistics as primaries is dangerous.
Twin LB10XACs with twin large lasers (in arms to take advantage of their position) would be neat. Pierce armor and then destroy internals. Arguably i could make that by having the LLs in torso but... eh.

Too bad there is no Blackjack trial at the moment, would like to try it. Can get only so far by playing with mechlab. Unfortunately it cannot have XL225 engine and twin LB-Xs (yeah, i like those weapons). Gotta sacrifice a few tons of armor and/or smaller engine for that :/
Alternatively i could build a mini-Rifleman with jumpjets... EDIT DAMN IT! I cannot make this with decent speed and jump-jets. Sigh. Need ER medium lasers, when did IS get those... EDIT 3058? Damn...

 

[Orayn]

That moment when you finally hit the sweet spot with a mech build you like. So good.

So good and yet so bad, since mine was a dual gauss Catapult K2, which some people consider obnoxious and cheesy... But I still laugh maniacally every time someone targets and destroys my useless, unarmored arms and I kill them with an alpha strike to the core. GET REKT!

 

[Zaptruder]

So good and yet so bad, since mine was a dual gauss Catapult K2, which some people consider obnoxious and cheesy... But I still laugh maniacally every time someone targets and destroys my useless, unarmored arms and I kill them with an alpha strike to the core. GET REKT!

You cheesy fu... ah who am I kidding. I've been pop-tarting in my highlander since ballistic state rewind.

1 Gauss, 2 ERPPCs, 1ML, 19DHS. The most potent beastie in my mech garage. P2W realized!

 

[Woorloog]

You cheesy fu... ah who am I kidding. I've been pop-tarting in my highlander since ballistic state rewind.

1 Gauss, 2 ERPPCs, 1ML, 19DHS. The most potent beastie in my mech garage. P2W realized!

What's the medium laser for? Close range defense?
If you have enough space, i'd trade it for another DHS, or perhaps more ammo.

Personally, i can't stand jump-sniping. Had enough of it in MW4/Mercs (usually the victim, since i never found the particular style fun to play). That said, strong screen-shake while jumping would make it hard, if not completely remove it.

 

[Discobird]

Totally forgot about this one. Does it support the old Sidewinder?

Thank you, this post and your avatar took me back to fifth grade for a few rose-tinted moments:

Tried out the trial Jager, reliance on ballistics as primaries is dangerous.

Keep in mind that the trial Jager is a complete trashpile with less armor than the trial Jenner.

I introduced a couple of my friends to MWO this weekend, and between the crappy trial mechs (the Jenner is OK), lack of training missions and abstruse mechlab UI I think they would've quit if I hadn't convinced them there's a good game underneath. I hope PGI steps up their new player experience when this thing officially launches.

Twin LB10XACs with twin large lasers (in arms to take advantage of their position) would be neat. Pierce armor and then destroy internals. Arguably i could make that by having the LLs in torso but... eh.

Unfortunately I think you have to sacrifice too much to fit twin LBX-10s and twin LLAS on the Jager. You could try 4x MLAS instead, which has a slightly higher alpha and better DPS than the two LLAS at the expense of range. Something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=67&l=3c42210ee59312cbf5fb3373e7e03d40f5d11be0

 

[Zaptruder]

What's the medium laser for? Close range defense?
If you have enough space, i'd trade it for another DHS, or perhaps more ammo.

Personally, i can't stand jump-sniping. Had enough of it in MW4/Mercs (usually the victim, since i never found the particular style fun to play). That said, strong screen-shake while jumping would make it hard, if not completely remove it.

Medium laser is for fun.

But also for those times when you just need an extra bit of damage to pop that red body part.

 

[Woorloog]

Keep in mind that the trial Jager is a complete trashpile with less armor than the trial Jenner.

Unfortunately I think you have to sacrifice too much to fit twin LBX-10s and twin LLAS on the Jager. You could try 4x MLAS instead, which has a slightly higher alpha and better DPS than the two LLAS at the expense of range. Something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=67&l=3c42210ee59312cbf5fb3373e7e03d40f5d11be0

Less armor than Jenner? Huh. Well, i managed to stay alive, gotta stay at range. Stock-speed is awful though, can't dictate the engagement range properly.

Yeah, can't fit two large lasers without sacrificing speed or a few tons of armor (or ammo).
Modified your design a bit though, engine up to 300, shaved half a ton of armor and a heatsink. Swapping the medium lasers for medium pulses is an option, a decent one considering the LB-Xs are better at close range.

Unfortunately Jager doesn't quite have that "something".

Medium laser is for fun.

But also for those times when you just need an extra bit of damage to pop that red body part.

I see.

 

[Discobird]

Sounds like your best bet is to wait and see how the Orion and Victor turn out since you have pretty exacting taste in mechs. Although I am curious to see if you can build a Highlander that fits your style.

I hope the upcoming JJ shake doesn't hurt lights too badly. I pretty much never shoot with both feet on the ground when I'm in my Jenner F.

 

[DTKT]

So, I have about 12 million C-Bills to spend. Can anyone recommend a newbie-friendly mech type? I'm looking for a Medium or a Heavy.

My first guess was a Catapult with two EPPC or Gauss cannons? I really don't want to mess up my first mech, that would be a really bad way to start out.

 

[Ingueferroque]

So, I have about 12 million C-Bills to spend. Can anyone recommend a newbie-friendly mech type? I'm looking for a Medium or a Heavy.

My first guess was a Catapult with two EPPC or Gaus cannons? I really don't want to mess up my first mech, that would be a really bad way to start out.

How did you get that cash?

 

[DTKT]

How did you get that cash?

Not sure to be honest. I made an account a few months ago, I remember being disgusted by the amount of LRM spam and simply quit. Came back a few days ago with 10mil in the bank. Also, is there a way to see a battle log of my last few matches?

 

[teepo]

So, I have about 12 million C-Bills to spend. Can anyone recommend a newbie-friendly mech type? I'm looking for a Medium or a Heavy.

My first guess was a Catapult with two EPPC or Gauss cannons? I really don't want to mess up my first mech, that would be a really bad way to start out.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=22&l=160962ed990598a119c793f40cf33b57d21a630e

unquestionably still the best medium brawler in the game as well as imo the best practice/starter mech you can buy. the four medium lasers on the arm along with its generous torso twist ensure you can easily hold your own against a pack of lights and the srm's allow you to go one on one with most heavier mechs. there are very few mechs as well balanced as this one though there is very little you can do outside this one build.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=7&l=5eb813e01a1c03ca596101e45c5edaa28348a151

on the other hand, this popular centurion build packs nearly the same amount of firepower as the hunchback but at the cost of having less agility in the speed in which you can twist your torso and the fact that all the weapons are mounted to it, meaning lights will tear you apart but on the positive side, it's the prototypical zombie mech which all other zombie builds aspire to be. don't be surprised with how often you'll have both arms blown off, nearly every part of your upper body cored and yet still manage to end the match being able to fire every last one of your weapons.

i find hunchbacks easy to deal with, but even in an alpha heavy assault mech, i find pilots using this build to be annoying shits.

 

[Discobird]

Cataphract 3Ds are easy and versatile, with JJs and the ability to spec as brawlers, snipers or anywhere in between. One of the best heavy mechs in the game. No missile hardpoints though.

Some example 3D builds:

2x ERPPC + 1 Gauss sniper poptart (VERY strong in the current meta): http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=2169f608e71ed25a88c94847cc5a9b580ad1692e

3x PPC midrange fighter (watch out for the 90m minimum range on the PPCs): http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=242fd9a654f0c7d597eca61484996a2a2e70595d

1x AC20 + 4x MLAS brawler (basically a jumping Hunchback with AMS): http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=4a411134c83741796963fa0c07d97517e32001eb

4x LLAS mid/close range brawler: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=52a9b3750d31599470928b7b9fafc0770b24d86f

2x LBX10 + 4MLAS brawler (haven't tried this, sounds fun though): http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=4f2d95c9eabbe7adc3a2118f9fdbe2888fc8a9e2

Lots of room to play around with builds.

Note that the 3D has low mounted arms so you'll want to make sure your arms clear any obstacles before firing.

 

[teepo]

the JJ nerf will heavily impact the 3D's ability come next patch, making its low hanging arms that much more of a handicap.

but it could be the idea mech given how he can start with the 4 LLAS build and work his way up to owning a 300xl, which is famously the most versatile engine in the game.

 

[Discobird]

It'll hurt the sniper 3Ds for sure, but it remains to be seen how it'll affect the shorter ranged builds. JJ are still extremely useful for brawling even if you don't shoot while jumping.

 

[Shining]

Thank you, this post and your avatar took me back to fifth grade for a few rose-tinted moments:

Going from SNES to PC gaming back in 1995 was some intense shit. The intro from MW2 is still one of the best around.

 

[Nickiepoo]

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=7&l=5eb813e01a1c03ca596101e45c5edaa28348a151

on the other hand, this popular centurion build packs nearly the same amount of firepower as the hunchback but at the cost of having less agility in the speed in which you can twist your torso and the fact that all the weapons are mounted to it, meaning lights will tear you apart but on the positive side, it's the prototypical zombie mech which all other zombie builds aspire to be. don't be surprised with how often you'll have both arms blown off, nearly every part of your upper body cored and yet still manage to end the match being able to fire every last one of your weapons.

i find hunchbacks easy to deal with, but even in an alpha heavy assault mech, i find pilots using this build to be annoying shits.

Yeah, it doesn't look like much but this is actually a really nasty mech. Seriously as tough as nails if used right, if you survive a match you'll probably be missing at least 60% of your mass but between its speed and ability to spead damage everywhere and do good damage without the use of an XL engine it's really nice, particually at low levels where people haven't learnt to aim right for your narrow left torso.

Fits just inside the 10mill budget too.

 

[Woorloog]

Sounds like your best bet is to wait and see how the Orion and Victor turn out since you have pretty exacting taste in mechs. Although I am curious to see if you can build a Highlander that fits your style.

Orion is exactly what i want. Symmetrical primary (ie most used) weapons, a big gun, and SRMs or LRMs for support. All i need to do is to add endo-steel, DHS, perhaps XL for faster speed, more armor and more ammo.

Victor... well, i liked it in MW4Mercs, not sure if i care for it here really. It is just like Highlander but lighter, and energy and missile hardpoints have swapped places. OTOH it should be somewhat faster, and slightly smaller target which is always good.

As for Highlander itself, can't make it fast enough. XL325 can move it up to 64KPH with speed tweak, which is respectable for an assault mech but... well, an assault coming right next to you gets called a primary very fast.
The biggest issue is the price of course, the thing costs some 18million in total. I can build something else i like with much less (i have about 6 million at the moment, not counting those 10kMC i have).

 

[Zaptruder]

Orion is exactly what i want. Symmetrical primary (ie most used) weapons, a big gun, and SRMs or LRMs for support. All i need to do is to add endo-steel, DHS, perhaps XL for faster speed, more armor and more ammo.

Orion is one of the most asymmetrical looking mechs around.

Also, the ballistic and missle packs are its primary weapon systems.

But I suppose that's ok for you, because you don't like ballistics, so you won't be using those.

You're a weird cat, you know that?

 

[Nickiepoo]

I actually wonder if by 'symetrical' he means where the different weapon systems are spread evenly across the seperate sides of the mech rather than asthetically symetrical, like the Atlas for example, but not like the very RT heavy Hunchback or Highlander (in fact, I'd call the hardpoint split one of the huge advantages of the Heavy Metal over regular varients).

In other news I'm really starting to wonder if lower heat limits, lance tonnage caps and more heat on the ERPPC to make it a niche weapon wouldn't dramatically improve the current meta.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Still think the team build ups can get really silly with way too many assaults and heavies at times, but putting any strict limits on matches would probably really screw with matchmaking speed. To me it seems like it's taking lot longer to get into matches too, I used to get almost instant matches, but lately I've had it sit their waiting to find matches for 4-5 minutes. Unless its an indicator of the player population drying up a bit.

 

[Woorloog]

Orion is one of the most asymmetrical looking mechs around.

Also, the ballistic and missle packs are its primary weapon systems.

But I suppose that's ok for you, because you don't like ballistics, so you won't be using those.

You're a weird cat, you know that?

It is asymmetrical mech (most are) but it has symmetrical arm weapons, which is important for me, but it doesn't rely on merely its arm mounted weapons (unlike Blackjack or Jager or Catapult-C4).
Also, "primary weapon" as in the weapon i use most in most situations, not necessarily the one that deals a lot of damage, that's "main gun". Confusing, i know, comes from that i bind weapons like medium lasers to primary mouse button.

EDIT Nickiepoo got it right:

I actually wonder if by 'symetrical' he means where the different weapon systems are spread evenly across the seperate sides of the mech rather than asthetically symetrical, like the Atlas for example, but not like the very RT heavy Hunchback or Highlander (in fact, I'd call the hardpoint split one of the huge advantages of the Heavy Metal over regular varients).

EDIT the unfortunate thing with Atlas is that it is just plain ugly, expensive and way too slow.

Mechs whose main gun is in an arm are easily crippled (eg Highlander, Centurion, Victor, Dragon), unless one goes for a zombie build or something like that, which i don't usually like.

I do like ballistics, i just prefer to have one or two at most, because they weight so much, and mechs like JagerMech who rely on ballistics alone (especially if they're in arms) can be crippled too easily, either by losing the weapons or running out of ammo.
Also, the game currently doesn't have good lighter ballistics available, LB 5-X or LB 2-X, or UAC2. AC2s are meh, weak damage/tonnage ratio.

This game doesn't have many mechs i like, and i've either used enough of those (Centurion, HBK-4SP) or they're something that don't accommodate the playstyle i like (Raven).
Not sure if i'll buy me a Blackjack and try it just for the novelty or if should just wait for Orion (gotta grind money regardless though).

Oh, and i wonder, will we get Alexander Kerensky's Orion as a hero mech?

EDIT Looks like we're getting a Jager hero, Firebrand

 

[Nickiepoo]

Yeah, sounds like the Orion will be more worth your grind-time then anything else around right now.

What would your ideal possible mech (correct timeframe/seen) from the lore be anyway?

Still think the team build ups can get really silly with way too many assaults and heavies at times, but putting any strict limits on matches would probably really screw with matchmaking speed. To me it seems like it's taking lot longer to get into matches too, I used to get almost instant matches, but lately I've had it sit their waiting to find matches for 4-5 minutes. Unless its an indicator of the player population drying up a bit.

Could be due to the ELO stuff they've been fiddling with recently.

 

[Woorloog]

Yeah, sounds like the Orion will be more worth your grind-time then anything else around right now.

What would your ideal possible mech (correct timeframe/seen) from the lore be anyway?

EDIT note: these are for MWO and other mech sims. For the tabletop, i have no clear favorites or dislikes.

Warhammer, Marauder are good though both stock models are awful (but then, all mechs that don't use advanced tech are awful, with the sole exception being Hunchback HBK-4SP, though that one can be made even better with advanced tech). And yes, the things are goddamn Unseen.
Catapult is good, but i have it already. Also, it isn't suited for brawling really, no movable arms.
EDIT as i said, i like Victor in MW4, and Centurion is cool, fun mech. So, them too.
EDIT oh, yeah: Hatamoto-Chi.

Clans: Timber Wolf, Hellbringer, Summoner, Shadow Cat, and Mad Dog.

(Rifleman is cool, and its arm-mounted energy weapons a plus over Jagermech. Looks like the upcoming Firebrand Jagermech will have ballistic/energy arm weapon mix though... perhaps i'll buy it.)

EDIT i do have some other favorites as well but... well, they're from late 50s or later.

 

[Ingueferroque]

I wonder why this isn't on Steam yet.

 

[Woorloog]

I wonder why this isn't on Steam yet.

Probably because it isn't "launched" yet. Also, currently the game uses its own patcher/launcher. Not much point in Steam version, unless the extra exposure is the point.

 

[teepo]

I wonder why this isn't on Steam yet.

my guess is that they're waiting until they implement UI 2.0 along with the tutorials that are planned to go along with it or maybe once it's officially released. it's already on the stream registry.

 

[Discobird]

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=22&l=160962ed990598a119c793f40cf33b57d21a630e

unquestionably still the best medium brawler in the game as well as imo the best practice/starter mech you can buy. the four medium lasers on the arm along with its generous torso twist ensure you can easily hold your own against a pack of lights and the srm's allow you to go one on one with most heavier mechs. there are very few mechs as well balanced as this one though there is very little you can do outside this one build.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=7&l=5eb813e01a1c03ca596101e45c5edaa28348a151

on the other hand, this popular centurion build packs nearly the same amount of firepower as the hunchback but at the cost of having less agility in the speed in which you can twist your torso and the fact that all the weapons are mounted to it, meaning lights will tear you apart but on the positive side, it's the prototypical zombie mech which all other zombie builds aspire to be. don't be surprised with how often you'll have both arms blown off, nearly every part of your upper body cored and yet still manage to end the match being able to fire every last one of your weapons.

i find hunchbacks easy to deal with, but even in an alpha heavy assault mech, i find pilots using this build to be annoying shits.

Yeah Centurions are beastly durable thanks to their screwy hitboxes. Their CT is extremely narrow and short from the front and some of their leg joints are actually open space through which shots pass without doing damage, despite looking solid (see this video). I just leg Centurions when I see them now because otherwise they last as long as Atlases if your team doesn't know how to fight them.

The only thing I would add to your post is that I don't like SRMs much in the current patch--too wide a spread even with Artemis--so I would consider replacing the SRMs with SSRM2s and adding a BAP and, if possible, AMS. BAP is very good since the 5/21 patch made them nullify ECM.

Probably because it isn't "launched" yet. Also, currently the game uses its own patcher/launcher. Not much point in Steam version, unless the extra exposure is the point.

Warframe is also in open beta and goes through a separate launcher, and it's on Steam. But Warframe is more polished and newbie friendly so I think teepo is right that PGI is waiting for UI 2.0.

 

[Woorloog]

So, i got second best place with the trial Jager. I reckon i played it correctly, stayed back and gave fire support. EDIT no kills though
Warming to it.
We're getting new trial mechs next Tuesday, right? I really wanna try out Blackjack, before committing money.

EDIT also, compare the MWO Orion and one of the Reseen Warhammers. They look oddly similar... pics later.

 

[Woorloog]

So. Why do Double Heat Sinks (and normal heat sinks as well?) increase heat cap?
Remove that and this game will not be AlphaStrikeWarrior any longer.

And... This actually provides a perfect system to balance Single Heat Sinks as well, have them increase the heat cap (but much less than DHS currently do).
That is, when choosing heat sinks, you choose between weak heat dissipation but slightly higher heat cap, and good heat dissipation but normal heat cap.
DHS should be balanced to be slightly more desirable in general, since they're more expensive and bigger (and more advanced tech), but specialized builds would benefit from SHS. Also, DHS are not supposed to be necessary for people to be useful, trial mechs are pretty horrible for new players...

This way the heat curve itself wouldn't have to be tweaked either really, to avoid "randomness" of ammo explosions etc. without forced shutdown. (In the Tabletop game, ammo can explode before the mech gets shutdown, in MWO, ammo cannot seemingly explode unless you're also shutdown from heat. Not sure about extended high heat... Correct me if i'm wrong in either point).

Weapons still need to be balanced a bit, i think Pulse Lasers and small weapons in general are a bit too worthless at the moment.
LRMs are pretty good now. Don't like how slow they're though, they arc so high it takes forever for them to land. Very easy to avoid by going to cover to break the lock.


EDIT also, the engine weights don't account cockpit and gyro. At least, the small ones don't. Smallest gyro is 0.5 tons, i think, and cockpit is always 3 tons... so lightest extra-light engine should be 0.5+0.5+3=4 tons.
EDIT oh. OH! Someone did the math, the heat sinks you add are the weight of cockpit+gyro, since all engines have to have 10 heat sinks. In the Tabletop, all engines have 10 heat sinks included always, apparently?

 

[Servizio]

Link

We’re challenging you! In addition to the usual challenge of winning your matches, we’re adding an additional challenge to get twenty-five (25) victories from today (28th of May – Noon PDT) till Friday (31st of May – 10am PDT) . Think you can do it? Well this challenge comes with a bonus – if you succeed in this challenge, you’ll get a free 3050 hologram for your cockpit!

Ohhh, cockpit swag. I'm 5 out of 25 so far.

 

[Zaptruder]

So. Why do Double Heat Sinks (and normal heat sinks as well?) increase heat cap?
Remove that and this game will not be AlphaStrikeWarrior any longer.

And... This actually provides a perfect system to balance Single Heat Sinks as well, have them increase the heat cap (but much less than DHS currently do).
That is, when choosing heat sinks, you choose between weak heat dissipation but slightly higher heat cap, and good heat dissipation but normal heat cap.
DHS should be balanced to be slightly more desirable in general, since they're more expensive and bigger (and more advanced tech), but specialized builds would benefit from SHS. Also, DHS are not supposed to be necessary for people to be useful, trial mechs are pretty horrible for new players...

This way the heat curve itself wouldn't have to be tweaked either really, to avoid "randomness" of ammo explosions etc. without forced shutdown. (In the Tabletop game, ammo can explode before the mech gets shutdown, in MWO, ammo cannot seemingly explode unless you're also shutdown from heat. Not sure about extended high heat... Correct me if i'm wrong in either point).

Weapons still need to be balanced a bit, i think Pulse Lasers and small weapons in general are a bit too worthless at the moment.
LRMs are pretty good now. Don't like how slow they're though, they arc so high it takes forever for them to land. Very easy to avoid by going to cover to break the lock.


EDIT also, the engine weights don't account cockpit and gyro. At least, the small ones don't. Smallest gyro is 0.5 tons, i think, and cockpit is always 3 tons... so lightest extra-light engine should be 0.5+0.5+3=4 tons.
EDIT oh. OH! Someone did the math, the heat sinks you add are the weight of cockpit+gyro, since all engines have to have 10 heat sinks. In the Tabletop, all engines have 10 heat sinks included always, apparently?

Messing around with heat doesn't really fix the core of the issue. It might help to fix some of the symptoms of the issue, while inadvertantly nerfing a bunch of other ones.

And the heatcap is 30+heat sink dissipation...

because that's the heat cap from the board game.

I mean, what happens when you have 30 cooling and fire 30 heat worth of weapon in 1 round in BT?

And what happens if you have 30 points of heat dissipation and fire 30 heat worth of weapons in 10 seconds in MWO?


I suppose a heat penalty scale that starts above your heat dissipation rate would help to bring the intent of the heat system back in line with the original BT game (i.e. that there are penalties for firing too many weapons in a single turn, of which shut down is one)...

But I understand the current no penalty intent to be a bone for newer players.

i.e. the game is already complicated as fuck, so why make it even more complicated?

Which is something I don't necessarily agree with - because additional complexity is introduced when you're getting smashed constantly by imbalanced mechs in your bad trial mechs, and you can't figure out what on earth is going on and how you can get better at the game... but I digress.

But I still feel the core of the issue in high pin point damage loadouts (my new term for what I was calling high alphastriking), isn't fully, or even properly addressed by heat scale, heat dissipation, or whatever changes you'd want to propose to the heat system.

Because ballistics is an entire weapon category that goes relatively unnerfed by this change. As a result, nerfing heat would just cause everyone to find and boat the most ballistics they can.

K2 players and Jagermech players would love that.

 

[Woorloog]

Messing around with heat doesn't really fix the core of the issue. It might help to fix some of the symptoms of the issue, while inadvertantly nerfing a bunch of other ones.

And the heatcap is 30+heat sink dissipation...

because that's the heat cap from the board game.

I mean, what happens when you have 30 cooling and fire 30 heat worth of weapon in 1 round in BT?

And what happens if you have 30 points of heat dissipation and fire 30 heat worth of weapons in 10 seconds in MWO?


I suppose a heat penalty scale that starts above your heat dissipation rate would help to bring the intent of the heat system back in line with the original BT game (i.e. that there are penalties for firing too many weapons in a single turn, of which shut down is one)...

But I understand the current no penalty intent to be a bone for newer players.

i.e. the game is already complicated as fuck, so why make it even more complicated?

Which is something I don't necessarily agree with - because additional complexity is introduced when you're getting smashed constantly by imbalanced mechs in your bad trial mechs, and you can't figure out what on earth is going on and how you can get better at the game... but I digress.

But I still feel the core of the issue in high pin point damage loadouts (my new term for what I was calling high alphastriking), isn't fully, or even properly addressed by heat scale, heat dissipation, or whatever changes you'd want to propose to the heat system.

Because ballistics is an entire weapon category that goes relatively unnerfed by this change. As a result, nerfing heat would just cause everyone to find and boat the most ballistics they can.

K2 players and Jagermech players would love that.

Right. Forgot that the heat cap is higher than 30 in the tabletop... sort of.

As for new players, just make informative UI and good tutorial, anyone not learning after those and playing... well, it is their problem.

Simplifying things because "it is too difficult" is the most bullshit reasoning ever. And it is a fucking shame the game industry does it constantly, even "simulation" games like MWO.
I know if i were to design a game, i'd make sure the information is easily available and understandable, and there would be good tutorials, but i wouldn't make things easy otherwise. High learning curve.

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I'd say that since the game is run in real time instead of 10 second turns, removing the heat cap increase (from DHS as i outlined above) would fix some issues, force people to slow down their shooting, ie kinda get closer to actual 10 seconds between attacks without being an artificial restriction (that is, a soft global cooldown). You can still shoot faster, just suffer the consequences. (Optional rules for the tabletop do allow this actually, firing more than once per turn, i think, at least for some weapons.)

As for high damage being desirable at the moment, and weapon heats... OK, ballistics become good due to low heat compared to energy weapons. So, given them other penalties. Reduce ammo per ton, increase reload time, just plain increase heat, increase weapon arcing (if so, we need a proper reticule though, one with range finder lines), etc.

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Oh, and smaller weapons should be (somewhat) more efficient (ie have better damage/tonnage or damage/heat ratios or so on) since we can't mount as many of them. Would buff lights and mediums as well, people would still use bigger weapons on heavier mechs since they can. Mentioning this because lights and mediums could really use some sort buff, and this might also reduce interest in high-damage weapons.

This includes AC2, which could use a slight damage increase. Don't see why weapons have to stick so strictly to their TT counter-part damages, especially since some don't (missiles).

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If it were up to me, i'd make some serious weapons overhauling. I'd keep weapon weights and sizes the same as they're, as well as ammo per ton (probably), but otherwise i'd go over every weapon and tweak their damage, range, heat... everything. I'd keep the general idea for each weapon same, but they wouldn't look quite like the boardgame's weapons afterwards.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Other issue with going from TT to the game is the removal of random hit locations. Players here just easily alpha strike a single point for quick kills when in the table top your dealing with damage and hits being applied more randomly spread out. This is a problem that they really can't easily fix in a real time game though. They are essentially going to need to break away from trying to stick too close to certain TT elements.

Even with adding more penalties to heat and group firing it's still going to give ballistics an advantage. What are they going to do then, start nerfing the heck out of ballistic damage? Main nerfing and balancing to play with right now is recharge/firing rates if anything and little tweaks to damage. Any group firing penalties can't be too severe.

But they really need to add in more penalty for overheating.

 

[Woorloog]

Other issue with going from TT to the game is the removal of random hit locations. Players here just easily alpha strike a single point for quick kills when in the table top your dealing with damage and hits being applied more randomly spread out. This is a problem that they really can't easily fix in a real time game though. They are essentially going to need to break away from trying to stick too close to certain TT elements.

Even with adding more penalties to heat and group firing it's still going to give ballistics an advantage. What are they going to do then, start nerfing the heck out of ballistic damage? Main nerfing and balancing to play with right now is recharge/firing rates if anything and little tweaks to damage. Any group firing penalties can't be too severe.

But they really need to add in more penalty for overheating.

Then nerf the frigging damage (while at it, buff AC2 a bit perhaps?), if it is required to keep the weapons balanced.

Weapon convergence tweaking could solve, or at least alleviate the pin-point damage issue, but it could be very confusing.
One possibility: instead of "O" shaped reticule for arms, make it "O-O" (or "O---O"), with left arm point to the left "O" and the right arm point to the right "O".
For torso-mounted weapons, similar tweak and similar adjustment to the reticule.
This allows still hitting to the same body part with all weapons but makes it slightly harder.

EDIT "realistic" system would be almost as missiles are: you lock on the target, and when you press fire, the computer determines whether it hits or not, and if it hits, where; taking account distance, the weapon used, and the location of the reticule. This way, if one keeps the reticule aimed at the head, most shots would land relatively close. IE similar to "called shots" from the tabletop.
Of course, if the system were like this, then "pilot skill" and other things would have to be tracked, making the game a bit more like an RPG than an FPS. Could be interesting.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'm glad you guys are hashing out the problems fundamental to the game.

I did the same too a while back and ended up concluding the solution *had* to be a temporal divergence of large damage weapon groups.

I mean, however you achieve that mechanically, that's what needs to be done to reconcile pin point targeting, real time gameplay with multiple body parts that can be destroyed singly.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

Possibly, but playing with a joystick is pretty sub-optimal. Mouse is best due to the need to aim.

Using stick(s) is so satisfying when used well though. I personally do mouse+joystick. A great balance of both worlds(immersion+precision)

 

[Woorloog]

I'll note something ironic. Simulation games aim for realism, no*? Well, a real tank, with computer guided main gun, can hit a small target from 2 kilometers easy. Arguably Battletech universe mechs are at least that advanced, indeed it has been noted that the ranges in the tabletop are for convenience, not because they're realistic. And in the books, experiences mechwarriors can hit what they aim easily enough, unlike in the tabletop game. So, the aiming system MWO has... well, it is quite likely very correct.
Non-standard mechs are rare, arguably if everyone was using stock variants, the game would be very different. Saying this because standard-mechs would prevent quite a lot of this "pin-point-alpha-strike" metagame.

Funny. Mech customization is so big part of the Mechwarrior games, one cannot make a game without it. OTOH, the games could be much more interesting and demanding without customization.


EDIT note for self, general video game design point: Customization is fun. But it should have big trade-offs, make people really think whether it is worth it. Prevent optimization, at very least prevent high amount of optimization. Stock designs need to be workable as well.

EDIT* Strictly speaking, they aim to simulate whatever they're based on. Usually with high degree of realism. Still, in MWO's and other mech games' case, i think it is valid to claim they try to simulate how the mechs would work realistically, within certain boundaries to keep the feeling similar to the original works.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'll note something ironic. Simulation games aim for realism, no*? Well, a real tank, with computer guided main gun, can hit a small target from 2 kilometers easy. Arguably Battletech universe mechs are at least that advanced, indeed it has been noted that the ranges in the tabletop are for convenience, not because they're realistic. And in the books, experiences mechwarriors can hit what they aim easily enough, unlike in the tabletop game. So, the aiming system MWO has... well, it is quite likely very correct.
Non-standard mechs are rare, arguably if everyone was using stock variants, the game would be very different. Saying this because standard-mechs would prevent quite a lot of this "pin-point-alpha-strike" metagame.

Funny. Mech customization is so big part of the Mechwarrior games, one cannot make a game without it. OTOH, the games could be much more interesting and demanding without customization.


EDIT note for self, general video game design point: Customization is fun. But it should have big trade-offs, make people really think whether it is worth it. Prevent optimization, at very least prevent high amount of optimization. Stock designs need to be workable as well.

EDIT* Strictly speaking, they aim to simulate whatever they're based on. Usually with high degree of realism. Still, in MWO's and other mech games' case, i think it is valid to claim they try to simulate how the mechs would work realistically, within certain boundaries to keep the feeling similar to the original works.

Optimization is fine.

But the system should be designed and balanced such that it allows for a large number of optimized builds using all weapon types and all mech types.

I mean, that's the ideal - but the job is to get that as true as possible.

 

[BattleMonkey]

They have to do their own things either way. The tabletop game had lot of issues and still does with balance. The whole mech building a person can do has lead to so much cheese in itself in the table top. They have revised things so many times but it never fixes all issues, and you can't expect to take a non perfect TT game and transition it into a real time game easily. Taking liberties is fine.

 

[dionysus]

In the lore convergence is not instantaneous. The mechwarrior holds the reticule over the target and waits for the reticule to go gold indicating convergence. Firing before that introduces error into your shot. This is for direct fire weapons, they wait for a tone on missiles I believe.

I believe this type of mechanic is implemented in World of Tanks, though I have never played that game. You have a shrinking cone of possible weapon trajectories the longer you hold the reticule over the target until it goes to pinpoint accuracy.

I'm not actually a fan of this as it implements a RNG into instantaneous targetting and takes out fast twitch targetting as a effective skill from the game, but it is food for thought and seems to mimic how it worked in the lore.

Perhaps my favored solution would be to put hardpoint size restrictions. So no mech would have 6 large energy weapon hardpoints. So take the Atlas D, you would have a large ballistics hardpoint for gauss or AC20, but only 4 medium energy hardpoints. Not sure how I would size the missile hardponts but you get the drift. You could even make it flexible by saying 2 medium hardpoints in the same section could add together to make 1 large hardpoint.

 

[Woorloog]

Optimization is fine.

But the system should be designed and balanced such that it allows for a large number of optimized builds using all weapon types and all mech types.

I mean, that's the ideal - but the job is to get that as true as possible.

Is it fine?

Take any stock model mech. Most have various issues. Let's start with equipment locations, these are very easy to optimize. Armor allocations.
And in many cases, removing a single weapon to add a heatsink, ammo, or some armor is a worthwhile trade.
Suddenly the mech is much better than the basic model.
Anyone who could do that would have an advantage.

And what is wide range of "optimized builds"?
Arguably someone will figure out the best build for a given purpose, so we end up with "best close range", "best long range" and so on.
How do you nerf those without nerfing individual weapons, without nerfing people who don't use optimized mechs.
(Arguably adding quirks like increased heat dissipation, faster ROF, more damage, and so on (or negative versions), to mechs could be used for balance, but they can also cause people to shun designs or take advantage of them too much)

Why use sub-optimal build, unless you're part of some unconventional tactics group?

In what world is a mech with mix of all 3 weapon types with all weapons for all ranges is optimal?
There are quite a lot of stock mechs that try to be jacks of all trades, and they never work as they're in Mechwarrior games (or at least they're far from optimal and can work with enough skill). At very least, one can always improve them a bit.

I cannot see non-optimized mechs to work well in a game that is basically a first person shooter.
Even random spread wouldn't help non-optimized mechs, it would actually hurt them more and just piss people off.

Just pointing out various issues with enabling customization in games in-general, including Battletech boardgame as Battlemonkey noted.

Personally i'd favor a system where customization is extremely limited: for example, one could have "customization points". Let's say each mech has 20 of them. Changing a weapon to another would cost a lot of points, whereas merely re-arranging somethings would cost less. Reverting changes would refund the points, of course.

In the lore convergence is not instantaneous. The mechwarrior holds the reticule over the target and waits for the reticule to go gold indicating convergence. Firing before that introduces error into your shot. This is for direct fire weapons, they wait for a tone on missiles I believe.

This would be a good system, i think. Once max convergence is achieved, the accuracy would be purely player skill dependent. If firing too early, accuracy should be enough to avoid excessive randomness, but make early shots risky (ie hit the adjacent hit location).

 

[Zaptruder]

In the lore convergence is not instantaneous. The mechwarrior holds the reticule over the target and waits for the reticule to go gold indicating convergence. Firing before that introduces error into your shot. This is for direct fire weapons, they wait for a tone on missiles I believe.

I believe this type of mechanic is implemented in World of Tanks, though I have never played that game. You have a shrinking cone of possible weapon trajectories the longer you hold the reticule over the target until it goes to pinpoint accuracy.

I'm not actually a fan of this as it implements a RNG into instantaneous targetting and takes out fast twitch targetting as a effective skill from the game, but it is food for thought and seems to mimic how it worked in the lore.

Perhaps my favored solution would be to put hardpoint size restrictions. So no mech would have 6 large energy weapon hardpoints. So take the Atlas D, you would have a large ballistics hardpoint for gauss or AC20, but only 4 medium energy hardpoints. Not sure how I would size the missile hardponts but you get the drift. You could even make it flexible by saying 2 medium hardpoints in the same section could add together to make 1 large hardpoint.

I kinda like this idea, but mainly in the sense that it makes each mech more unique. Problem is it doesn't get rid of natural boats - so you just end up with a narrower selection of Tier 1 and 2 builds (Current tier 1 been poptarting highlanders w/ 1 gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs and cataphracts with same, Tier 2 been other large assaults boating PPCs and gauss, and AC20/gauss jagermechs/catapults/cataphracts).

 

[Woorloog]

I kinda like this idea, but mainly in the sense that it makes each mech more unique. Problem is it doesn't get rid of natural boats - so you just end up with a narrower selection of Tier 1 and 2 builds (Current tier 1 been poptarting highlanders w/ 1 gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs and cataphracts with same, Tier 2 been other large assaults boating PPCs and gauss, and AC20/gauss jagermechs/catapults/cataphracts).

Makes boating in general harder, at least ranged boating. Go up close and just blast away works just fine.
Would promote more close-range battles, which i like, since that's how i see Battletech, big mechs blasting each other much closer than it is reasonable.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Yeah, honestly, massively slowing down convergance for large weapons could really help the balance as far as toning down pop-and-shoot alpha builds goes.

Sized weapon slots could be nice too since you could kill off 6ppc stalkers by only having 4 of their energy slots be PPC compatable, but then I've been saying that every since the Guasscat dominence.