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MechWarrior Online - News and Information Thread

Giolon

Member
I feel like PGI just has no idea how to balance a game. ECM was grossly overpowered (by combining 3-4 systems from TT into 1 uber unit), so to counter that, they buff up BAP to give it an ability it never had either. It's just escalation.

Removing the friendly IFF jamming of ECM is a great first step towards properly balancing it. IMO, that was actually the most OP aspect of it in PUG games, since if players can't see where their team is on the radar, they don't know where they can run to for help.

The next step should have been removing its ability to completely lock down SSRMs at close range. Guardian ECM isn't supposed to affect them (or LRM at all), and even Angel ECM is supposed to only prevent them from locking on, not prevent them from firing, essentially turning them into regular SRMs.

I would have liked to see them make those two changes, and see how it worked out from there.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Not to pick, but isn't it totally impossible to fire SSRMs without a lock in TT?

Yes.
Streak lore is that they can only fire if they're locked on, in order to prevent ammo waste. Hardwired system, which is why SRMs are still in use as well, for those allow dumb-firing (and canonical SRMs are lock-on weapons like LRMs, not just "rockets" like in MWO, Medium Range Missiles and Rocket Launchers fill role of rockets in Battletech 'verse).
 

Giolon

Member
Not to pick, but isn't it totally impossible to fire SSRMs without a lock in TT?

Yes.
Streak lore is that they can only fire if they're locked on, in order to prevent ammo waste. Hardwired system, which is why SRMs are still in use as well, for those allow dumb-firing (and canonical SRMs are lock-on weapons like LRMs, not just "rockets" like in MWO, Medium Range Missiles and Rocket Launchers fill role of rockets in Battletech 'verse).

While SSRMs can't be fire w/o a lock in TT, the entry for Angel ECM contains the following "Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles." I've always interpreted as "well, you've got a lock, so the missiles will fire, but their homing capabilities are jammed."

Either way, I don't think that a single 1.5 ton piece of equipment should be able to entirely disable any weapon. Gimp it, cripple it, sure.
 

Woorloog

Banned
While SSRMs can't be fire w/o a lock in TT, the entry for Angel ECM contains the following "Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles." I've always interpreted as "well, you've got a lock, so the missiles will fire, but their homing capabilities are jammed."

Either way, I don't think that a single 1.5 ton piece of equipment should be able to entirely disable any weapon. Gimp it, cripple it, sure.

Ah, i reckon Angel ECM interferes (feeds false info?) with Streaks so that the device itself is satisfied with the lock and fires the missiles, though it isn't actually reliable lock, thus "like standard missile".

PGI has gotten some other stuff backwards as well: Original ECM worked (more) like Stealth Armor/Null-signature system from the TT. The upcoming version is more like the TT ECM. BUT in the Battletech 'verse, ECM was designed to counter the superiour scouting capability of Beagle Actvie Probe. The upcoming changes? BAP counters ECM. Duh.
I agree that making BAP truly useful otherwise would be difficult... but not imposibble.

Oh and one more thing, currently the game integrates C3 system (information sharing) for all mechs, no? I'd very much prefer it to be additional equipment like in TT, make it important for team work, force people to compromise their loadouts a bit more otherwise.

Of course, there are other, more pressing issues. Someone here suggested that heat dissipation should be faster but also that weapons should generate more heat, to make the game more DPS focused instead of alpha/burst-based. Liked that idea.

PS: Currently, Cockpit and Gyro are weighless. Don't like that at all.
 
Following the TT rules to a letter was never going to happen, nor does it totally work in a real time simulator. As much as we would like it too, it's an abstract hex turn based game. Lot of changes have to be made for a video game transition.

And lot of silly things exist in the TT game as well, nor was it ever known as being the most balanced of games either. Btech has undergone many revisions and tweaks over decades.

Either way, I don't think that a single 1.5 ton piece of equipment should be able to entirely disable any weapon. Gimp it, cripple it, sure.

It's not like it's an end all to ECM. Still requires mechs to equip that item which for many is valuable space, and also requires a mech to get with 150m of the ECM mech. Smart teams will know this and should be screening the ECM mechs from the other mechs getting in close. Think it's a good fix that promotes more team work to be effective while removing the former god like no effort ability it had before.
 

Nickiepoo

Member
Oh and one more thing, currently the game integrates C3 system (information sharing) for all mechs, no? I'd very much prefer it to be additional equipment like in TT, make it important for team work, force people to compromise their loadouts a bit more otherwise.

For a singleplayer (plus AI lance) or coop game I'd totally agree, but in MWO all you'd be doing is further alienating new players using trial mechs.
 
I feel like PGI just has no idea how to balance a game. ECM was grossly overpowered (by combining 3-4 systems from TT into 1 uber unit), so to counter that, they buff up BAP to give it an ability it never had either. It's just escalation.

Yep i stopped playing MWO - 30$ wasted on founders package - it had amazing potential but constant missmanagment by PGI is running the game into ground.
 

Woorloog

Banned
For a singleplayer (plus AI lance) or coop game I'd totally agree, but in MWO all you'd be doing is further alienating new players using trial mechs.

Well, perhaps C3 system could be some sort expanded, better information sharing system. Faster, more accurate, longer lock, something like that. Perhaps something that is meant for players operating in pre-made groups.
As it is, removing sharing would cripple everything.
Just wishing it would be in, MWO is supposedly a mech simulator. It is the best there is at the moment but i think it could be even better.
 

Nickiepoo

Member
Well, perhaps C3 system could be some sort expanded, better information sharing system. Faster, more accurate, longer lock, something like that. Perhaps something that is meant for players operating in pre-made groups.

Oh, yeah, I'd love a C3 system with expanded teamwork applications. Abilities for lance commanders to mark priority targets, picture in picture views of their screens, ect. Would have to be really well thought though to actually be worth the tonnage/development time, but awesome in theory.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Oh, yeah, I'd love a C3 system with expanded teamwork applications. Abilities for lance commanders to mark priority targets, picture in picture views of their screens, ect. Would have to be really well thought though to actually be worth the tonnage/development time, but awesome in theory.

Add in some small bonuses for, say, weapon convergence speed, arm movement speed... (arguably overlapping with Targeting Computer but we ain't seeing that anytime soon) Nothing big, just something that gives some edge for C3 users, considering they have to sacrifice tonnage and space for it.
Perhaps quick voice commands (you know, Battlefield-style Commo Rose or something) for C3 equipped mechs (well, arguably this should be a default feature... OTOH, teamwork should be promoted, and C3 equipment should have its perks...)
 

teepo

Member
they've already stated that the menu driven voice command system they're currently working on will find its way into the game before integrated voice chat.

future modules, items and most likely the command console will allow mechs to fill in the role of a commander/support type - though i don't like the fact that most of these mechanics will more than likely be modules. either way, their continued expansion of modules is mitigated through having the c3 come equipped with every mech, which i feel is one of the best decision they could've made with this game.
 

teepo

Member
easily the most underwhelming patch thus far

Open Beta Update #16

Upcoming Patch - Tuesday May 7th @ 10AM – 1PM PDT

Patch Number: 1.2.219

Change Log

UPDATE

Greetings, MechWarriors

May is going to be a great month. I can feel it! Let's start by going over the content of this patch!

The Stalker Hero 'Mech "Misery" sure does live up to its name, with a paint job that reflects its war torn soul and the hard points to cause plenty of misery on the battlefield.
Just check out this trailer to see what I mean! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnkBs9WQMM

A new Trial 'Mech Champion! The Jenner JR7-F(C). This is a legendary developer build that has been tearing through Atlas armour since closed Beta. Give it a spin and prepare to be tempted to purchase this Champion 'Mech on May 21st.

After making you wait long enough, you can now change the colors on your Hero 'Mech. We can't wait to see what kind of color combinations you guys create.

We have a real treat for you, the Buccaneer custom pattern! I asked Alex (Flying Debris) what his inspiration was and this is what he said. I was imagining "Some crazy, bearded, malnourished man with missing teeth going to work with a paint roller in the 'Mech hanger while indulging in questionable substances. This mech painting bender happened after the force he was attached to made off with thirty tons of potatoes, women's shoes, and stereo equipment,from the last backwater planet they raided". Ok Alex. I am just going to back away slowly now. Plenty of hidden messages in this cool custom pattern can you spot them all?

New 'Mech statue Cockpit items added to round out the customization.

We have some good improvements and fixes as well, to clean up functionality and stability.

You should also be aware we are working hard to address the HUD issues and are getting closer to a solution.

See you on the battlefield,

Matt Newman

Content

New Hero Mech

“Misery” STK-M

- Stalker STK-M
- Tonnage: 85
- Engine: 255 Top Speed: 48.6 kph
- Max Engine Rating: 310
- Torso Movement:
- 65 degrees to each side
- 20 degrees up and down
- Arm Movement:
- 0 degrees to each side
- 30 degrees up and down
- Armor: 496 (Standard)
- Weapons & Equipment:
- Left Arm: 2 Medium Lasers
- Left Torso: Gauss Rifle
- Center Torso: Large Laser
- Right Torso: SRM 6
- Right Arm: 2 Medium Lasers
- Internal Structure: Standard
- Hardpoints:
- Left Arm: 2 Energy
- Left Torso: 1 Ballistic
- Center Torso: 1 Energy
- Right Torso: 1 Missile, 1 AMS
- Right Arm: 2 Energy
- Heat Sinks: 21 Single
- Jump Jets: n/a
- ECM Capable?: No
- Module Slots: 1
- 30% C-Bill Bonus
- Quirks:
- 10% increase in turning rate
- 10% increase in acceleration

New Trial Champion Mech

Jenner JR7-F(C)

- Tonnage: 35
- Engine: 300 XL Top Speed: 138.86 kph
- Max Engine Rating: 300
- Torso Movement:
- 120 degrees to each side
- 20 degrees up and down
- Arm Movement:
- 0 degrees to each side
- 30 degrees up and down
- Armor: 238 (Ferro-Fibrous)
- Weapons & Equipment:
- Left Arm: 3 Medium Lasers
- Left Torso: Jump Jet
- Right Torso: Jump Jet
- Right Arm: 3 Small Lasers
- Internal Structure: Endo-Steel
- Hardpoints:
- Left Arm: 3 Energy
- Right Torso: 1 AMS
- Right Arm: 3 Energy
- Heat Sinks: 15 Double
- Jump Jets: 2 Max: 5
- ECM Capable?: No
- Module Slots: 1

New Trial Mechs

- Jenner JR7-F(C).
- Hunchback HBK-4G.
- JagerMech JM6-S.
- Highlander HGN-732.

New Cockpit items:

- Dragon statue.
- Awesome statue.
- Cicada statue.

New Premium Skin:

- Buccaneer Skin.

Air Strike Improvements:

- There is now a plane that flies over the sky when an Air Strike is called.

Gameplay

- Players can now change the colors on their Hero Mechs.
- Players can reset the colors of their Hero Mechs using the color channel selection.

Front End

- Fixed friends list size limitation.
- Better incoming message notification.
- Improved message context sensitivity.
- Chat Color coding/User identification.
- Decoupled Anti-Aliasing from System Spec option.
- Implemented brightness/Gamma option.

Bug Fixes

- Fixed an issue where users were being disconnected during game.
- Fix for possible soft lock users experienced while playing a match.
- Fixed a crash that some users experienced when the end of round screen timer ran out and they were kicked back to the Mech Lab.
- Fix multiple control rebind issues.
- Fix for 'Mechs losing the ~1km/h with speed tweak.
- Fixed a black screen bug that could happen to users after the loading screen.

Known Issues

- HUD issues.
- We will be pushing a hot fix for this issue as soon as it is addressed.

We thank you for your patience and we look forward to seeing you on the battlefield!

The MechWarrior® Online™ Team
 
Yeah, not much going on this patch. The Buccaneer Pattern is really nice though. Love the unique messages on the Mech's. The Catapult ears, Atlas knuckles, and Raven text are all pretty funny. I'll probably buy it if they ever make patterns universal like the paint colors.

i52bGdkWpfO09.png
 
New SSD Drive and finally some game time. I spent all day downloading this. Any tips for a newb? I haven't played a game like this since Mechwarrior 2 days. I want to relive my childhood hahaha
 

dionysus

Yaldog
New SSD Drive and finally some game time. I spent all day downloading this. Any tips for a newb? I haven't played a game like this since Mechwarrior 2 days. I want to relive my childhood hahaha

Ask us before you waste money on a bad mech. Mechs are not all created equal in BT or this game.

Also, you will be severely gimped until you can buy a mech and upgrade it with double heat sinks, endosteel, etc. Trial mechs are way less heat efficient than anyone with a custom mech.
 

teepo

Member
New SSD Drive and finally some game time. I spent all day downloading this. Any tips for a newb? I haven't played a game like this since Mechwarrior 2 days. I want to relive my childhood hahaha

the first 25 games will net you about 8 millions from just the cadet bonuses alone so by the end, you should have about a bit more than 10 million cbills. endure playing through these rounds using only trial mechs, however crappy they may be.

http://themittani.com/features/mwo-making-most-your-cadet-bonus

so once you accumulate the cash, please do ask for our help
 

dionysus

Yaldog
Some good information in the latest Ask the Devs. Highlights are:
-Merc Corps seems to allow the most customization in CW so that is probably the way to go.
-PPC nerf incoming
-UI 2.0 in June/july :(
-Looking to give more incentive to play lights post HSR
-MG buff incoming
-Still wasting time on 3rd person, ugg.

I pulled out some of the more interesting replies below.

PGI said:
Broad5ide: If anything in CW requires premium time to unlock will you still be able to access that unlock without premium time?
A: Currently there are no pay-only unlocks, and no plans to add them, other than existing concepts like Hero Mechs.

Ssm: On upcoming Community Warfare: Aside from continuously grinding fronts/borders, are you planning to include some kind of "special missions", e.g. deep raids into enemy territory to fight for 24hrs (real-time) over a single planet for special rewards (tech maybe)?
A: Merc Corps will be able to fight for and occupy specific systems.


Timuroslav: Will there be an Increase in the Incentive/rewards for playing Light mechs, now that the Risk is more dangerous?
A: As we flesh out the roles for each `Mech, yes. But this is not specific to just Lights.

StaggerCheck: When it comes to boated Mechs, such as the six PPC Stalker, are you pleased that the community came up with a configuration like that, or do you see it as a symptom of something that needs to be tweaked in the game?
A: Players will always build and use `Mechs that are perceived to be the best or most powerful. This changes on a regular basis as new mechs are introduced or items are tuned/fixed. There will always be a mech or two that people will favor. We do our best to make sure to encourage players to use a variety, this comes in the form of nerfs, buffs, tuning, etc.

Yoseful Mallad: Will we ever get more dramatic maps or map effects that hamper or force us to use certain weapons and or equipment?
A: Once we have a lobby and players can vote for certain maps to be player, and players can bring more than one Mech with them to select from – yes.

Terran123rd: Looking around the forum, there seems to be some demand for a small-scale (light-mountable) ballistic weapon that is good as a general-purpose weapon, rather than as a dedicated crit-seeker. Are there any plans to implement this?
A: Machineguns are getting tuned to help with this.

TyGeR STD: Will we see any type of variation in weapons, engines, and maybe even mechs by manufacture that have different stats?
A: Yes, with Community Warfare. Details are still being worked on.

Bishop Steiner: Have you considered adding Weapon System "Efficiencies" to unlock in the Pilot Tree, much like we do mechs, allowing ones to "tighten" up use on preferred weapon systems?
A: Yes. We’re expanding the meta game post launch.

Snowseth: Are there any plans to expand on the current heat system? Where running too hot is an actual threat with actual consequences beyond interrupting a shutdown?
A: Yes, we are exploring permanent (match) damage caused by overheating.

Mvrck: Given the new found usefulness of PPC's as long range weapons, and the buff to AC20's health pool, are there any plans to revisit the Gauss Rifle and give it a little more durability, or a lower chance of dealing damage upon explosion?
A: No plans to tweak Gauss Rifles at this time, however, we might nerf PPCs not that you brought it up. : )

Der Hesse: How about an easy to use function for the Lancecommander to call out the Targets for concentrated Fire? Maybe a Function where the Lance can see wich mech he is targeting. The Functions for the Commanders right now are too time consuming and arent used much.
A: We have a command wheel coming after launch that should help with this.

Pinselborste: Bryan said that UI 2.0 will reduce the need for trialmechs for new players, what does that mean?
A: With the new UI we have the ability to funnel players through a specific training phase, which teaches the player how to play the game, use Mech and Pilot Labs, etc. UI 2.0 + Achievements allow us to reward the players for completing specific key goals. Once the player completes the beginner tutorial, we can gift a `Mech to them, removing the need to use Trial `Mechs as starter `Mechs.

Gremlich Johns: When the CW mode is implemented, will it be 1st Person View only?
A: We haven’t decided on the final format. Both 3rd and 1st person will be available options, however we have yet to confirm how one or the other will be selected for specific scenarios, like Merc Corp vs Merc Corp.

Doc Shmol: Are you planning to create premade Lance contests ?
A: Team tournaments will come with Community Warfare, 12 v 12, and UI 2.0.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
What is a good mech to get?
I was thinking one of the catapults with LRMs.

Good thing you asked. LRMs and SRMs are hurting currently as they were nerfed and have a pending rebalance coming in June probably. Direct fire weapons are currently the most popular way to play, but this games meta seems to change about every 2 months so that won't last forever. For catapults, the K2 maybe but personally I'd look at Cataphracts or Jagers in the heavy category.

Like I said before you probably aren't going to be able to buy just one mech that will be considered "good" in the metagame for a long time. Catapult A1s used to be the most popular mech, now you never see them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Streak Catapult A1s make a comeback once missiles are rebalanced given how ECM use is fading.
 

Llyranor

Member
A bit of detail on the blackjack variants http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/117769-hud-bug-brief/

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/117794-blackjack-variants/

BJ-1: 2 AC/2s, 4 Medium Lasers, 11 single heat sinks, 180 Std, 4 jump jets
BJ-1DC: 2 AC/2s, 4 Medium Lasers, 2 Small Lasers, 12 single heat sinks, 180 Std
BJ-1X: 4 Flamers, 4 Medium Lasers, 18 single heat sinks, 225 Std
BJ-3: : 2 PPCs, 4 Medium Lasers, 10 double heat sinks, 180 Std, 4 jump jets

They all have a default speed of 64kph except that 1X which can go 81.

Sounds like my main will be the BJ-1. Medium JJ ballistics, woo! 2 other variant picks will probably be 1X for the higher speed (return of the fast swayback???) and 3 also for the JJ's. 1DC is less appealing due to lack of JJs and slow speed, though I don't necessarily want 2 laserboats, either.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
A bit of detail on the blackjack variants http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/117769-hud-bug-brief/

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/117794-blackjack-variants/



They all have a default speed of 64kph except that 1X which can go 81.

Sounds like my main will be the BJ-1. Medium JJ ballistics, woo! 2 other variant picks will probably be 1X for the higher speed (return of the fast swayback???) and 3 also for the JJ's. 1DC is less appealing due to lack of JJs and slow speed, though I don't necessarily want 2 laserboats, either.

AC2s and 4 med las sounds like a fun load out. Just swap in some DHS and XL and it should be quite a kickin' medium.

But main will have to be the 8ML 100 kph swayjack. Should be a terror.

Patch day is going to be brawling bliss. Too light to boat PPCs effectively, players might actually have to resort to gasp... medium lasers!
 

Woorloog

Banned
Imagine how much the build dynamic would change if they included the weight for these parts. Could go a long way to limiting the min/max builds that are so common.

Those things weight total of... 3 tons + Gyro which is depended upon engine weight (i assume that at the moment the engine weights don't include gyros), total these would cut down usable mech tonnage by some 10 tons at most, give or take.
Definetly would have interesting effect upon min-maxing.

If that were done, and the game changed to be more of DPS focused (ie cooling change) instead of alpha-striking... i'd like that a lot.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Those things weight total of... 3 tons + Gyro which is depended upon engine weight (i assume that at the moment the engine weights don't include gyros), total these would cut down usable mech tonnage by some 10 tons at most, give or take.
Definetly would have interesting effect upon min-maxing.

If that were done, and the game changed to be more of DPS focused (ie cooling change) instead of alpha-striking... i'd like that a lot.

Cockpit + gyro weight are inclusive to engine weight.

I literally had to go back to the Battletech game manual to figure out how they were keeping the canon designs of mechs while not including cockpit and gyro weight.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Cockpit + gyro weight are inclusive to engine weight.

I literally had to go back to the Battletech game manual to figure out how they were keeping the canon designs of mechs while not including cockpit and gyro weight.

Oh. OH. OH!

Well then.
Now i feel somewhat silly, wanting somethings to the game, that were already in.
...
I'll just go stand in that corner...
 

dionysus

Yaldog
The problem is we have high heat caps and don't have a scale of negative penalties. With just the engine heat sinks being double heat sinks, high heat builds can alphastrike 3 times. On top of this while armor was doubled weapons were in effect tripled.

I'd be all for lowering heat capacity, slightly raising heat dissipation, and implementing the TT rules around heat in a reasonable way: decrease in weapon convergence, decrease in speed, internal damage, inaccuracy, etc. Right now there is no penalty for that last alpha strike that puts you 20% of the shutdown limit if you allow the shutdown to happen. Its absurd. Not to mention you can shut down while jumping, take no falling damage, and land behind cover during your shutdown. Literally no penalty.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
One of the solutions I proposed that I believe would be a truly elegant fix for weapon boating of any sort is having weapons limited by an energy system.

i.e. Energy capacity = engine rating. You get a full recharge of your energy capacity in 2 seconds.

Rough rule of thumb for energy use would be 1 dmg = 10 energy. You'd modify this on the basis of playtesting and on the reasoning and feelings of the balance designer of course.

So 1 AC20 shot = 200 energy. 2 = 400 energy. Maybe Gauss = 200 energy as well, just because the speed and range makes up for the reduced damage from the AC20.

Movement would also drain energy 15/30/50 for walking/running/jumping.

The beauty is that mech design gains another facet to consider in making it - you want alpha strike firepower? You'll need a larger engine that naturally reduces how much tonnage you can carry. Or you can spec for weapon diversity to help you engage in a range of roles.


Also, it doesn't stop players from boating - but if they do, then they'll find that their alpha strike has been nerfed.

i.e. instead of dual firing an AC/20, players will have to wait around a half second on most mechs before they can fire the second round - which still legitimizes the build and provides it with some degree of efficacy, but also helps to buff other lesser weapons like AC5 and AC10s; because those *can* alpha strike.

And it'd also become unnecessary to introduce arbitrary chain firing and or boating weapon convergence issues. Instead of having a bunch of random factors effecting gameplay, it continues to be responsive to the player's aim, while introducing the skill of energy management, which helps to promote a more varied play style.

It even has some degree of backing in the canon and lore - some of the novels mention that mechs have to wait a tick before they can fire the second gauss rifle because of the energy draw.


The main cons is that, it's not a direct translation of the table top (which diehard BT retards hate - even while they discount the addition of projectile speeds/firing rate which are all necessary considerations of a real time game).

So of course that means the MWO forums poo pooed it, citing a bunch of crazy technobabble reasons in a setting that is closer to Gundam or Avatar than reality.
 
I agree with the previous post about lowering heat caps. And overheating should have more negative effects like the tabletop. Heck in the fluff I remember it was dangerous for stored ammo to be in an overheating mech. Increase crit chances while over heating or increased ammo explosions. Pilots would also suffer from the heat, perhaps add in a blurring/blackout effect for being in the red too long. You shouldn't be able to ignore the heat so easily like you can in this game. Heat was one of the major aspects that lowered boating in the table top.

An alpha strike in the tabletop would often bring you to nearly Max heat, but in this game you could easily do an alpha and have lots of heat to play with.
 

teepo

Member
I agree with the previous post about lowering heat caps. And overheating should have more negative effects like the tabletop. Heck in the fluff I remember it was dangerous for stored ammo to be in an overheating mech. Increase crit chances while over heating or increased ammo explosions. Pilots would also suffer from the heat, perhaps add in a blurring/blackout effect for being in the red too long. You shouldn't be able to ignore the heat so easily like you can in this game. Heat was one of the major aspects that lowered boating in the table top.

An alpha strike in the tabletop would often bring you to nearly Max heat, but in this game you could easily do an alpha and have lots of heat to play with.

the good news is that there soon will be greater costs to overheating, e.g internal damage, speed penalities, and such. the bad news is that it wont discourage alpha builds under the current system. why they haven't just simply introduced a nonlinear scale which increases the base heat value when more of the same weapon types are fired is beyond me. it's simple, fire more than one ppc, each additional ppc will produce 20% more heat and so on.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
Teepo said:
the good news is that there soon will be greater costs to overheating, e.g internal damage, speed penalities, and such. the bad news is that it wont discourage alpha builds under the current system. why they haven't just simply introduced a nonlinear scale which increases the base heat value when more of the same weapon types are fired is beyond me. it's simple, fire more than one ppc, each additional ppc will produce 20% more heat and so on.

Where have they said this? A few months ago the official response to a heat scale question was that they were happy with the current heat system.
 

teepo

Member
Where have they said this? A few months ago the official response to a heat scale question was that they were happy with the current heat system.

the heat scale? that's the exact point i'm making... why they haven't implemented a non linear scale is beyond me. i can see why the current system exists, i.e simplifying the rules of a board game, but in a real time mech simulator where boating and alpha builds dominate the battlefield... it doesn't make any sense to me unless they're trying to encourage those sorts of builds.

Well they said that they're investigating it, not that it will necessarily be done. Source.

this is new. i'm feeling a bit better but still, i don't see how games like league of legends, dota 2 and such can constantly introduce slight balance changes on a weekly basis yet it takes months for them to do the same. 4 sec ppc cooldown? this couldn't have been introduced sooner? while i'm happy with that change, it just comes off as feeling completely arbitrary given how they've already handled dealing with ppc's in the past. just bring the heat values to where they originally were and go from there. i'm starting to believe what people has been echoing throughout the forums, that the lead balance designer is a ppc nut.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
I agree with the previous post about lowering heat caps. And overheating should have more negative effects like the tabletop. Heck in the fluff I remember it was dangerous for stored ammo to be in an overheating mech. Increase crit chances while over heating or increased ammo explosions. Pilots would also suffer from the heat, perhaps add in a blurring/blackout effect for being in the red too long. You shouldn't be able to ignore the heat so easily like you can in this game. Heat was one of the major aspects that lowered boating in the table top.

An alpha strike in the tabletop would often bring you to nearly Max heat, but in this game you could easily do an alpha and have lots of heat to play with.

When the issue is alpha striking... why would you fuck around with the heat caps?

Seriously... the heat system effects way more than just alpha striking.

So it burns my goat no end that the MWO community seems to think that the problem can be fixed by messing with heat caps a little.

PPC boating is just a symptom of the real problem. It's why people also propose fucking around with convergence.

But again, why fuck around with convergence when the problem is alpha striking? Especially when fucking around with convergence will make the core mechanics of shooting much less satisfying (i.e. it becomes less point and shoot and more point and pray).

They worked so hard to get HSR going and now this is what people are suggesting?

I could understand maybe a firing delay for PPCs or Gauss... but that really doesn't solve the boating problem. It just nerfs those two weapons.

So really... energy system or bust. A direct, targeted counter to pin point alpha striking which runs contrary to the inherent core game mechanics of having multiple body parts rather than just one health bar. No more, no less.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Alpha striking is not an issue.
Commonness of alpha is the issue.
Energy system would add unneeded layer of complexity (or complication)... it is just escalation (like making ECM so frigging powerful due to LRMs, adding EMP to PPCs to counter ECM...)
Only add more stuff when necessary or when it really makes the game more rewarding and interesting.
Battletech/Mechwarrior's are heat managing games, you do that properly, you don't need energy system.
Alpha should be high-risk, high reward. Currently it is too high a reward compared to the risk.
Adjusting heat system, cooling speed would solve this, make heat management more important.

If you ask me, i'd make single-heat-sinks to have more cons as well, make them viable alternative to doubles.

As for energy system fitting canon... I think it would fit a simulation game just fine. But it is unnecessary.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Alpha striking is not an issue.
Commonness of alpha is the issue.
Energy system would add unneeded layer of complexity (or complication)... it is just escalation (like making ECM so frigging powerful due to LRMs, adding EMP to PPCs to counter ECM...)
Only add more stuff when necessary or when it really makes the game more rewarding and interesting.
Battletech/Mechwarrior's are heat managing games, you do that properly, you don't need energy system.
Alpha should be high-risk, high reward. Currently it is too high a reward compared to the risk.
Adjusting heat system, cooling speed would solve this, make heat management more important.

If you ask me, i'd make single-heat-sinks to have more cons as well, make them viable alternative to doubles.

As for energy system fitting canon... I think it would fit a simulation game just fine. But it is unnecessary.

"Alpha striking is not the issue."

"Currently Alpha rewards too much relative to risk."

Seems like Alpha striking is an issue.

More pertinently, screwing around with heat system fucks with all the other weapon systems. IF alpha striking wasn't a problem (assume that it isn't)... would the heat system be a problem?

If yes, then that means the heat system is a problem. If no, then it means alpha striking is a problem.


As far as I can tell, if alpha striking wasn't a problem... then the heat system would be fine. In brawls, heat rapidly limits my DPS, and it needs careful management to prevent me from shutting down. Seems about right.

SO WHY PROPOSE CHANGES TO THE HEAT SYSTEM TO FIX PROBLEMS THAT EXIST ELSEWHERE?! Especially when those changes (when done right) would only fix *some* of the symptoms that emerge from the root problem? Seriously... what the hell is fixing SHS going to do? Who is that beneficial for? Players that play in trial mechs? That doesn't do anything to address the primary root cause of the current game imbalances that are reducing the fun quotient in the game.

Fucking Mechwarrior Online community man.


Look. Here's the compromise for Alpha striking with the heat system.

You don't have enough energy to fire both at once? It'll fire what it can... then as soon as the energy is available, it'll fire whatever else you're trying to alpha.

Reward is reduced, and player needs to use skill to compensate for the time lag and discrepancy.

The beauty of such a system is that it preserves some functionality in boating - you'll still fire 2x AC20 faster than 1xAC20 even when you can't alpha strike them. But it just means you're not ripping off or severely compromising entire portions of mechs in a single lucky shot.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Commonness! I have no issues with alpha itself, i have problem with it being common. I want to see more diverse selection of styles.
Alpha is too rewarding compared to its risk, which makes it common (and its commonness reduces the game to Alpha-strikeWarrior). It is rewarding because there is not enough punishment for using it... punishment in form of heat.
Alpha is a valid tactic, indeed it should be, it should not be taken away. But it shouldn't be done lightly, like people do now (because they can).
Tweaking heat system to promote DPS-style (or perhaps other styles) wouldn't remove alpha, it would just make it harder to use, require more thinking when to use (and would make missing very costly).
Would be also easier to implement than an energy system, which would be a brand new system.

Alpha's pont is to cripple or destroy an enemy right away, while risking overheating, ammo explosions and whatever effects heat has.

You want to reduce reward, i want to increase risk: force people to play smarter.
Energy system is just escalation, it would require a lot of extra balancing work, with no guarantees it actually fixes anything.
Besides, i'd rather not have PGI trying to add additional things to balance, they're having problems with their attempts at balancing the game as it is.

If heat-system tweak affects weapons that are not usually used for alpha too much, just tweak their heat generation a bit (lower or higher).

(Also a possiblity that just occured to me: "after-heat", ie when you fire you generate x-heat but afterwards you generate also y-heat for a few seconds. Not sure if would be practical or if it would be easy to balance. This would allow rapid-re-firing (since CDs are untouched) but would lead to much faster overheating, forcing people to slow down their ROF or use less weapons. And of course, this would be just a tweak, an extension to the heat system, NOT a new system.)

My concern about single heat sinks wasn't related to this alpha-issue, just a general issue, one that is inherent in the tabletop Battletech as well. Don't see why not try to fix some issues from the tabletop game in MWO, since other tweaks are already required for fun and balance.

EDIT another issue with your energy system: It is a hard restriction (not enough energy, can't fire), it doesn't increase risk or reward. Heat system is a soft-restriction, you can but you might not want to.
As with hard counter (rock-paper-scissors), hard restriction system is not nearly as fun, strategic, or flexible as a soft system.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Commonness! I have no issues with alpha itself, i have problem with it being common. I want to see more diverse selection of styles.
Alpha is too rewarding compared to its risk, which makes it common (and its commonness reduces the game to Alpha-strikeWarrior). It is rewarding because there is not enough punishment for using it... punishment in form of heat.
Alpha is a valid tactic, indeed it should be, it should not be taken away. But it shouldn't be done lightly, like people do now (because they can).
Tweaking heat system to promote DPS-style (or perhaps other styles) wouldn't remove alpha, it would just make it harder to use, require more thinking when to use (and would make missing very costly).
Would be also easier to implement than an energy system, which would be a brand new system.

Alpha's pont is to cripple or destroy an enemy right away, while risking overheating, ammo explosions and whatever effects heat has.

You want to reduce reward, i want to increase risk: force people to play smarter.
Energy system is just escalation, it would require a lot of extra balancing work, with no guarantees it actually fixes anything.
Besides, i'd rather not have PGI trying to add additional things to balance, they're having problems with their attempts at balancing the game as it is.

If heat-system tweak affects weapons that are not usually used for alpha too much, just tweak their heat generation a bit (lower or higher).

(Also a possiblity that just occured to me: "after-heat", ie when you fire you generate x-heat but afterwards you generate also y-heat for a few seconds. Not sure if would be practical or if it would be easy to balance. This would allow rapid-re-firing (since CDs are untouched) but would lead to much faster overheating, forcing people to slow down their ROF or use less weapons. And of course, this would be just a tweak, an extension to the heat system, NOT a new system.)

My concern about single heat sinks wasn't related to this alpha-issue, just a general issue, one that is inherent in the tabletop Battletech as well. Don't see why not try to fix some issues from the tabletop game in MWO, since other tweaks are already required for fun and balance.

EDIT another issue with your energy system: It is a hard restriction (not enough energy, can't fire), it doesn't increase risk or reward. Heat system is a soft-restriction, you can but you might not want to.
As with hard counter (rock-paper-scissors), hard restriction system is not nearly as fun, strategic, or flexible as a soft system.

With the system I'm proposing - you can still have an alpha strike in the form of lots of damage thrown out in a short time frame.

In the TT game, alpha strikes only exist in the form of firing every weapon in a 10 second time frame - which doesn't create the issue of convergence.

Introducing a temporal factor to alpha convergence (which is what this energy system would do) would still allow for a high risk/reward attack, but one that requires skill to get the most use out of it of (i.e. if you don't have enough energy to pump out all of your fire power in one shot, then you'll have to compensate for the energy lag by keeping your reticle on target).

Besides, alpha striking problems are localized to boating mechs, because you get natural temporal convergence issues when trying to fire multiple different types of weapon systems at the same time.

Also that hard restriction/soft restriction line is just specious pap. It's meaningless. There are plenty of 'hard restrictions' that don't limit the fun factor as you claim - rather they create boundaries in which other forms of creative expressions and fun can be had.

i.e. having a hard point system means that players aren't always boating the most effective weapon systems if they want to experience a variety of mechs. A hard restriction in your reckoning that is used to increase the variety and appeal of gameplay.

In this case, it would reinvigorate the competitive qualities of other build types.
 
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