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[Zaptruder]

Is it fine?

Take any stock model mech. Most have various issues. Let's start with equipment locations, these are very easy to optimize. Armor allocations.
And in many cases, removing a single weapon to add a heatsink, ammo, or some armor is a worthwhile trade.
Suddenly the mech is much better than the basic model.
Anyone who could do that would have an advantage.

And what is wide range of "optimized builds"?
Arguably someone will figure out the best build for a given purpose, so we end up with "best close range", "best long range" and so on.
How do you nerf those without nerfing individual weapons, without nerfing people who don't use optimized mechs.
(Arguably adding quirks like increased heat dissipation, faster ROF, more damage, and so on (or negative versions), to mechs could be used for balance, but they can also cause people to shun designs or take advantage of them too much)

Why use sub-optimal build, unless you're part of some unconventional tactics group?

In what world is a mech with mix of all 3 weapon types with all weapons for all ranges is optimal?
There are quite a lot of stock mechs that try to be jacks of all trades, and they never work as they're in Mechwarrior games (or at least they're far from optimal and can work with enough skill). At very least, one can always improve them a bit.

I cannot see non-optimized mechs to work well in a game that is basically a first person shooter.
Even random spread wouldn't help non-optimized mechs, it would actually hurt them more and just piss people off.

Just pointing out various issues with enabling customization in games in-general, including Battletech boardgame as Battlemonkey noted.

Personally i'd favor a system where customization is extremely limited: for example, one could have "customization points". Let's say each mech has 20 of them. Changing a weapon to another would cost a lot of points, whereas merely re-arranging somethings would cost less. Reverting changes would refund the points, of course.

Optimized builds are essentially ones that have taken careful consideration to reduce the amount of free slots and tonnage wasted, with an effective amount of ammo for the duration of battle, that have a small but reliably and synergistic number of weapon groups (4 max), are somewhat heat balanced, and comprised of and built around solid weapon systems.

So a 2UAC5, 4ML catapult or cataphract would perform quite well in this sense - good DPS, good back up weaponry, the ability to alpha with heat for extra damage, or use primary UAC5s to cool down.


As opposed to builds that didn't use endo steel when there was sufficient criticals, or even players that thought SHS was a good idea, or decided to bring an engine that was far too big, failing to equip sufficient weaponry, etc, etc.

I would even be ok if all the cheese builds that have been used to date would be competitively viable at the same time; because at least there's a good amount of variety there!

I'm talking about 9SL fast swaybacks, Gauss kitties, LL boats, PPC boats, Raven 3Ls, Missle boats, DDCs, splat cats, streak cats, pop tarts, etc, etc.

If those were all on the same or near the same tier of competitiveness, at least you wouldn't have to see the same thing in game after game after game. And there would be a variety of counter builds to those mechs; and more importantly, if all those cheese builds are optimized at once; it's because the weapons are sufficiently well balanced that they're all effective.


Suffice it to say, you'll find yourself in an esoteric minority of players that want to pursue a really limited customization system.

I mean, I'd love to be able to play a 3025 mode... but not if it was the only mode I could play - similarly to the limited customization system; it'd be nice to play with such a ruleset, but ultimately it would just stifle and stagnate the game even more than poor metabalancing.

And it seems like such a short sighted thing to want to mandate; essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater - using a solution with far reaching, mostly negative consequences in order to maybe help with the metabalance issues.

 

[Zaptruder]

Yeah, honestly, massively slowing down convergance for large weapons could really help the balance as far as toning down pop-and-shoot alpha builds goes.

Sized weapon slots could be nice too since you could kill off 6ppc stalkers by only having 4 of their energy slots be PPC compatable, but then I've been saying that every since the Guasscat dominence.

I do quite like the convergence slow down idea. It is in a sense a temporal convergence solution that can be overcome with skill - just coming at it from another angle. It could be done to great effect as long as the area for convergence was quite small, and could be lost easily - requiring a high degree of skill to snipe - and giving targeted players a chance to jink to avoid convergence*.

*Allowing opposing players to respond is I believe a key element to making a game seem fair and fun. At the extremes of high damage is that it's so quick and sudden that the player that has been killed has no idea what just happened... which is obviously not much fun at all!

But the highlander is still the fly in this particular ointment; given that the large weapon points are so closely mounted together. (The torso energy and ballistic arm are pretty tight - it wouldn't take long to converge). But maybe that's just another mech building subtlety - where arms with elbows, although hampered by been low slung, have an advantage in convergence speed over torso and no elbow arm mounted weapons.

 

[Nickiepoo]

The upcoming jumpjet nerf should help with that and even then, only a minor convergence offset is needed in order to reduce the reliability of hitting a single area at sniper ranges.

 

[BloodMoney]

does this game have the Shadow Hawk yet, or what?

 

[Woorloog]

I reckon my problem is that i'm a purist, in the sense that i dislike customized mechs being the standard instead of standard-mechs being the standard.

I have nothing against small tweaks, reasonable tweaks, the sort you see in Battletech canon commonly (ie machine guns and their ammo being swapped for a couple of small lasers and a heatsink), ie field-refits. Or salvage-enabled or forced re-fits, ie you lost a medium laser but got a couple of small lasers in salvage...
Extensive customization is a thing of Solaris VII, and rich or well placed mechwarriors, usually officers or commando unit personel. Also fine but those designs are rarely highly specialized, optimized designs* , since mechwarriors end up in very fluid situations often, and rarely have the luxury of knowing the environment etc. well enough to adjust their designs for the upcoming battles. At least, outside Clan-warriors and their odd way of fighting.
EDIT* consider Hero Mechs, which are customized but rarely very specialized, they're what i want to see from customization.

I'm not interested in '25 setting in itself really, not enough options as far as i'm concerned, though Third Succession War mentality is much more intriguing than anything afterwards.
EDIT also, my first knowledge of Battletech came from original Battletech rules (ie the second edition, not the first edition which was called BattleDroids, Finnish translation). I loved the world the rulebook described, with bandit kings, salvage, mechwarriors being comparable to knights etc.

does this game have the Shadow Hawk yet, or what?

Don't ever expect this game to have any of the original designs, the Unseen, or even Reseen.

 

[BattleMonkey]

In the TT, players go nuts with the mech customization and building their own cheese monsters. MWO is still restrictive in what you can do than in the real original game.

 

[Woorloog]

In the TT, players go nuts with the mech customization and building their own cheese monsters. MWO is still restrictive in what you can do than in the real original game.

If i were playing, i'd rule customizations out. Only standards, perhaps each one can have one reasonably customized leader mech. Or calculate money in addition to battle-value.

But yeah, MWO is a bit better than what can be done in the TT.

MWO would be fine if role warfare worked (ie scouting would be important), and the focus was on lighter mechs.
Bring back repairs at least, bigger mechs should be expensive to maintain. Or give lighter mechs higher rewards (since that would be the same in-effect).
Make sniping hard, focus on lighter mechs and close-to-mid-range combat.
I can forgive customization since the game is otherwise quite unique compared to other options.
Still doesn't stop me from wishing this were, or would have an optional mode, less about customization and more about stock-mechs and skillful playing with them.


EDIT 24h to get 14 wins. Haven't won a single game today... Sigh. I hate my Catapult and can't afford to get anything really, the trial Jager is cool but sucks really, and the trial Hunchback is bad in non-city maps (and i never get anything but non-city maps...). Won't touch Highlander, tried it and decide i don't like it, and i don't like Jenners of any sort.

 

[Nickiepoo]

What you really need is a lance.

 

[Zaptruder]

What you really need is a lance.

dropship mode (4 mechs or 200 tons, whatever is less) would go a long way towards helping out with imbalanced boating heavy/assault mechs.

If I can take a raven 3L and a centurion for the price of your Stalker, maybe having a PPC boat is no longer so obviously better.

 

[BattleMonkey]

But how do they enforce weight limits without completely wrecking the matchmaking times? They can't really enforce premade groups that follow specific rules without a ton of UI front end selection options, and if the matchmaking would have to do it, people will be stuck waiting for a match forever. Compound this with the player rating stuff and some folks will be stuck waiting for matches for a long time.

Unless they could do something like give players a drop option before a match telling them an estimated queue time for the various weight and classes of mechs before a person accepts the matchmaking.

 

[Woorloog]

What you really need is a lance.

Me? If you mean by lance that i need competent, reliable teammates, perhaps.
Otherwise, not sure. I'm a lone wolf, more or less. I guess i could play with others, assuming there are others here playing in reasonable times. Finnish timezone (UTC+3 due to fucking DST) is inconvenient.
And unfortunately a lance doesn't fix the game, it just makes winning easier. Useful for the challenge, or grinding money (something i don't care for, since grinding doesn't fit my definition of fun). EDIT i mean, i don't care for curb-stomp battles either. Need some challenge and tension. Had enough of curb-stomping with HaloGAF playing Halos.


EDIT @BattleMonkey, what is "wrecked MM time"? Personally i'm willing to stand up to a few minutes of searching, assuming it gets me a fun, good match.

EDIT @Zaptruder, 200 tons or 4 mechs is not enough. Want those company level games, 12v12. With majority in lights or mediums as per canon, and as it is more fun.
That said, 4v4 mode would be interesting.
Or even better, Lance vs Star mode (4v5). And dueling mode.

 

[BattleMonkey]

EDIT @BattleMonkey, what is "wrecked MM time"? Personally i'm willing to stand up to a few minutes of searching, assuming it gets me a fun, good match.

Right now the way it's been with loose match making in the game with little restrictions on what can be in a match, it can at times take 3-5 mins to get into a match I've seen (I wouldn't doubt they are seeing a decline in player base size, nothing really going on that is bringing players to the game). The more rules they put into team make up via types of mech classes, tonnage, player rating, etc will all just compound how long a player will have to wait. Going to probably see some shitty lfg tool wait times that you see in even some huge MMOs nowadays.

 

[Woorloog]

Right now the way it's been with loose match making in the game with little restrictions on what can be in a match, it can at times take 3-5 mins to get into a match I've seen (I wouldn't doubt they are seeing a decline in player base size, nothing really going on that is bringing players to the game). The more rules they put into team make up via types of mech classes, tonnage, player rating, etc will all just compound how long a player will have to wait. Going to probably see some shitty lfg tool wait times that you see in even some huge MMOs nowadays.

I never have to wait more than 1 minute currently.
I reckon you have higher ELO then, that might slow down MM.

Increasing player pool will reduce MM times of course, PGI should make the game more accessible (good tutorial), more advertisement and Steam release would help.

Just as long as the game isn't made any easier or simplified... really want something that has relatively steep learning curve... Something that ain't DOTA2 anyway, too long matches.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I never have to wait more than 1 minute currently.
I reckon you have higher ELO then, that might slow down MM.

Increasing player pool will reduce MM times of course, PGI should make the game more accessible (good tutorial), more advertisement and Steam release would help.

Just as long as the game isn't made any easier or simplified... really want something that has relatively steep learning curve... Something that ain't DOTA2 anyway, too long matches.

I've still get in almost instant matches but been seeing more and more cases of longer waits than normal with this past weekend I had a wait of almost 5 min.

But if they don't get more players I just see them slowly bleeding more over time, player ratings changing things, and we also have to consider that they are going to make things likely take longer with community warfare. More modes and the warfare stuff is likely going to surely increase matchmaking times as player base is split up. I just don't see how they can put in tonnage or lance make up restrictions in without it greatly messing with game wait times.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'm not talking about the group weight limit.

I'm talking about a system that lets players pick additional mechs to drop from once the first one dies.

So, each battle will have 8/12 players on each side; and each player gets multiple mechs.

Each player will have to make the decision if they want more mechs/lives, or heavier and more powerful mechs.

If you don't like tonnage, then maybe battle value.


If that happened; then medium mechs would truly become the work horses of the game.

 

[Woorloog]

I'm not talking about the group weight limit.

I'm talking about a system that lets players pick additional mechs to drop from once the first one dies.

So, each battle will have 8/12 players on each side; and each player gets multiple mechs.

Each player will have to make the decision if they want more mechs/lives, or heavier and more powerful mechs.

If you don't like tonnage, then maybe battle value.


If that happened; then medium mechs would truly become the work horses of the game.

Oh. OH!
That would be great indeed. Though i'd limit it to 3 mechs per player and 160 tons, or some such. 4 mechs per player might make matches a bit too long (no, not everyone would have all 4). Besides, 3 lives per round sounds better than 4 lives. Don't know why.

Battle-value would be arguably better system though, that way one could play with many heavies as long as they don't mount the best equipment. EDIT also easier to balance Omnis when they're added, since Omnis are usually much better than BattleMechs of same weight, if for nothing else than the superior Clan-tech.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I'm not talking about the group weight limit.

I'm talking about a system that lets players pick additional mechs to drop from once the first one dies.

So, each battle will have 8/12 players on each side; and each player gets multiple mechs.

Each player will have to make the decision if they want more mechs/lives, or heavier and more powerful mechs.

If you don't like tonnage, then maybe battle value.


If that happened; then medium mechs would truly become the work horses of the game.

Per player or per team? If by team your not going to have anyone buy premades caring about what they take. Players will be greedy and just grab a ton of assaults. Putting in strict BV or such for each player I can see but it would be quite something to put in a respawn game mode into a MechWarrior game. So many new variables get put into your game when you have a respawning mechanic in a game compared to a one life chance.

And any respawn mode would still go in as a negative on game matchmaking times as well with bloating play times. Make it a separate mode perhaps, but then you split up the player base for matchmaking purposes.

 

[Woorloog]

Per player or per team? If by team your not going to have anyone buy premades caring about what they take. Players will be greedy and just grab a ton of assaults. Putting in strict BV or such for each player I can see but it would be quite something to put in a respawn game mode into a MechWarrior game. So many new variables get put into your game when you have a respawning mechanic in a game compared to a one life chance.

And any respawn mode would still go in as a negative on game matchmaking times as well with bloating play times. Make it a separate mode perhaps, but then you split up the player base for matchmaking purposes.

Replace Conquest with Dropship mode. Or add Dropship mode to it.
Conquest sucks with just one life.

 

[Woorloog]

Challenge complete. Wasn't easy.
Really like Canyon Network, it is just the type of map i like, visually (ie natural environment, nothing fancy like that horrible Tourmaline Desert).

---

Also, more about weapon and heat balancing.
So, as i suggested, remove DHS heat cap increase... because heatsinks increase heat cap in the TT because one round lasts 10 seconds.

Zaptruder noted that ballistics would be an issue. I think i figured out how to fix this in an interesting fashion: Just change them to actual autocannons, ie make them burst firing weapons, with damage split between shells.

-AC2 can stay as it is due to its low damage and rapid fire, it is an autocannon already. Also gives it certain uniqueness and desirableness compared to other ACs. EDIT IF the weapon would end being too good for some reason, it can be always made a burst firing weapon as well...
-AC5 works best as 2-shell burst i think, though arguably it could stay as single-shot weapon. If burst, 3-shell burst might be a good idea if AC20 is 3-shell burst as well.
-AC10 can be 3-shell burst.
-AC20 works probably best either as 2-shell or 4-shell burst, though for clarity's sake it could be 3-shell burst like AC10.
-LB-X ACs can stay as shotguns since it doesn't look like we're getting solid shells for them. Unique line of weapons.
-Ultra ACs work just like now but fire bursts as well, ie UAC5 can fire two bursts in quick succession (if AC5 is made a burst-firing weapon), other UACs just double the amount of shells compared to normal ACs (and have their own range and ammo and chance to jam as normal). Makes them good at close range, or if you missed your first burst or made only a partial hit.
-Gauss Rifle won't be a burst weapon, of course, instead it stays as the only heavy hitting single-shot ballistic, making it unique as well. If balance is concern, increase reload time or reduce ammo per ton to 8, increase heat, or something, shouldn't be too hard to balance.
-EDIT Autocannons might need increased ammo supply afterwards (current amounts would be multiplied by 3 if all weapons would be turned to 3-shell burst weapons) since waste would be increased, and the game has double-armor already. Wouldn't be a big deal though.

This would give autocannons unique niche as burst weapons while reducing their sniping utility slightly, though a skilled player can be deadly with them still. Afterwards only single-shot weapons would be the (ER)PPC and Gauss Rifle, not counting AC2, since lasers are damage-over-time weapons, and missiles are missiles.
If the (ER)PPC are too desirable afterwards, tweaks to projectile speed and heat can probably give the weapon a good niche.
Pulse Lasers could use some tweaks too, they seem to be avoided at the moment.

While at it, double (or increase them by 50%) internal structure hitpoints to make crit weapons better... After all, armor was doubled so why not these as well?

 

[Servizio]

I had a thought, one I'm sure isn't original, but here goes:

Do you suppose the game would benefit from a Infinite Respawn Free-for-All Deathmatch mode?

"Benefit" being a pretty subjective word here. I can see a lot of pros and cons to it, and all sorts of complications of implementation, but I imagine it would be popular with people who might not ever try out any of the other modes otherwise.

It's kinda, sorta anathema to origins of the game and the direction it's going...But it might be fun, increase the player base, and subsequently get Piranha more of that sweet, sweet virtual paint job cash.

 

[Nickiepoo]

I had a thought, one I'm sure isn't original, but here goes:

Do you suppose the game would benefit from a Infinite Respawn Free-for-All Deathmatch mode?

"Benefit" being a pretty subjective word here. I can see a lot of pros and cons to it, and all sorts of complications of implementation, but I imagine it would be popular with people who might not ever try out any of the other modes otherwise.

It's kinda, sorta anathema to origins of the game and the direction it's going...But it might be fun, increase the player base, and subsequently get Piranha more of that sweet, sweet virtual paint job cash.

It wouldn't previously have been workable with the repair cost system, but these days there's much less reason to stonewall the idea. Maybe this is something that can be played with more if we see a Solaris mode.

We WILL be getting a 'respawn' mode, but with seperate mechs per life, as noted above.

 

[Woorloog]

I have 10 million now... wondering what to do with it.
I could buy a Blackjack and equip it, and grind another 6 million (Orion O1N-K costs just some 6.5 million C-Bills in the Tabletop and MWO prices are relatively close to the TT's) relatively fast... but i'm not sure i'll like Blackjack. I really hope we get trial Blackjack (preferrably BJ-1) next Tuesday.
Don't have many options though, other than the expensive Centurion CN9-D (have Basics in A and AL) or a couple of Hunchback variants (4H and 4SP). Not willing to buy a Jager just yet, equipping one costs too much at the moment, not to mention i'll consider getting the Hero Jager first, once we know more about it.
Hunchback, especially 4SP, is fun but... I don't know. Not that interested in it.


EDIT Should Blackjack use STD or XL? Are side-torsos destroyed often before CT or not? In my experience of fighting against Blackjacks, they do die from getting cored more than anything else, so XL is attractive, especially since the mech is light and needs as much free weight as possible.
EDIT AMS, do you recommend it regardless of design or not? I haven't seen many using missiles at the moment, me and my Catapult being something of an exception, so i reckon i won't waste weight for it.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Man, all this talk of price actually being a factor reminds me how different it can be for players who don't already own every mech and have 100million sitting pretty.

Llyranor Zap and I might have played too much of this game

 

[Woorloog]

100 fucking million spare?

You can practically buy whatever you want, whenever you want... What do you look forward to? At least i have clear goals (get new mech or equipment), which is in itself pretty enjoyable, as long as the thing doesn't feel like a grind (unfortunately it often does due to way the game is played at the moment).


EDIT Made this Trebuchet variant in Mechlab, wonder if it might work? TBT-5J "Wraith"
Inspired by 55t Wraith, this one is slightly slower and has less armor, naturally. Still, it could be theoretically excellent harasser and fast strike mech. Expensive though, 325XL bumps the cost to 12 million.
EDIT The LPLS can be swapped for ERPPC if one wants to be a sniper. Not for me though.
EDIT Adding Ferro-Fibrous allows adding one DHS and two points of armor (ie max armor). Not sure if the additional DHS is worth the cost.

 

[Nickiepoo]

100 fucking million spare?

You can practically buy whatever you want, whenever you want... What do you look forward to?

The next mech release DDDD

 

[No_Style]

Well. I spent 3 hours or so last night and got the 14 wins I needed for the the cockpit item that it will go unused after it try it once. Thanks to Teepo & Dionysus for their assistance in the remaining handful of matches.

I've been thinking about the poptart problem. Then as I was spectating someone and heard the "fuel at 20%" or whatever voice, it hit me. Why don't they give a finite amount of fuel that doesn't regenerate? Then people won't be able to poptart all match long.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Pop tarting should be taken care of once they put in the cockpit shake when using jump jets.

 

[Zaptruder]

100 fucking million spare?

You can practically buy whatever you want, whenever you want... What do you look forward to? At least i have clear goals (get new mech or equipment), which is in itself pretty enjoyable, as long as the thing doesn't feel like a grind (unfortunately it often does due to way the game is played at the moment).


EDIT Made this Trebuchet variant in Mechlab, wonder if it might work? TBT-5J "Wraith"
Inspired by 55t Wraith, this one is slightly slower and has less armor, naturally. Still, it could be theoretically excellent harasser and fast strike mech. Expensive though, 325XL bumps the cost to 12 million.
EDIT The LPLS can be swapped for ERPPC if one wants to be a sniper. Not for me though.
EDIT Adding Ferro-Fibrous allows adding one DHS and two points of armor (ie max armor). Not sure if the additional DHS is worth the cost.

I just enjoy the game man. I don't have to worry about the bills!

 

[sp3000]

4 PPC Stalker just destroys everything in this game.

 

[Woorloog]

Bought Blackjack BJ-1 since i can't stand the damn Catapult anymore. Needed something while waiting for Orion.

Here is the build:Blasto.
Maneuverable, long range fire-support. Just an upgrade to the standard BJ-1, much more ammo at the expense of vulnerability and less back-up weapons.
Another Double Heat Sink (not absolutely necessary) and a pair of Small Lasers for back-up would be ideal but i'd have to sacrifice some armor and/or Jump Jets. Might be worthwhile, not exactly sure if there's benefit for having all Jump Jets.
Also, would it be a good idea to swap the Medium Lasers for Flamers, in case i lose my ammo or arms. Twin Medium Lasers don't do much damage but a pair of Flamers could be used to blind or annoy enemies.

Alternatively i could trade the autocannons for a pair of (ER)PPCs and some heat sinks. Probably wouldn't be a bad build either, could have a couple of MGs for back-up, not sure if there'd be any point to that though.

EDIT a few games in: I'm really liking the mech. As long as i stick to fire-support role, it is very good mech. And the long range and rapid rate of fire of AC2s makes them pretty good for frag-stealing... Accidental, of course.
Neat little machine.
And i can think of various potentially effective versions. Flexible and fun.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Llyranor has been able to do over 1000 damage in a 1 Guass/4ML Blackjack and the jumpjets are a huge part of that when used correctly.

EDIT: 'Zaptruder: In the weapon grouping list, why are arm weapons listed as right arm first and left arm second, while torso mounted weapons seem to be listed CT, LT and then RT? Would it be possible to have the weapons listed from left to right, top to bottom? Or even better yet, have the weapon locations identifiably marked on the weapon list, so that you're in no doubt as to what weapons are located where.
A: We’ll be reviewing this with the HUD rework after launch.'

from Ask The Devs 39

Haha, nice work zap!

 

[Woorloog]

Whoah, upgraded Blackjack BJ-1 is awesome machine!
Easy to get 400+ damage per match.
Very effective if used properly, maneuverability and small profile make it hard to hit and it has enough armor at 272 points to weather a few hits.
KD ratio of 3 with at the moment.

I'll try some variations next, perhaps something with an UAC5 and a Large Laser? EDIT here's what i'm planning: Ultra-Blasto. If the ammo amount is way too big, then i'll drop a ton or two, upgrade the small lasers to mediums, possibly downgrade the ER large laser for a normal LLAS for heat management.

I think i'm really a medium pilot, i like Centurion and Hunchback, and Cicada is cool looking though i never found how to use it in a way that suits me. Haven't tried Trebuchet but i think can make it work as well.
I mean, heavies do allow for brawling in a way that mediums don't but something in mediums just makes them very likeable.
Unfortunately the Clans don't have many cool medium mech designs. At least ones that are available during the Clan Invasion. EDIT well, there is Shadow Cat, of course.

Do you think Timber Wolf will be the first revealed Clan mech? I reckon it will be.

 

[Llyranor]

Yeah, love the blackjack (gauss/4medlas is my favorite build). It fills the moderately-fast JJ ballistic sniper niche pretty well. I find it a pretty challenging mech to pilot. You're not fast enough to evade most things, and you will die fast if caught in the open. It requires good situational awareness at all times. You can support your team from afar, but you need to be able to reach it fast enough if you get into trouble.

 

[Woorloog]

Yeah, love the blackjack (gauss/4medlas is my favorite build). It fills the moderately-fast JJ ballistic sniper niche pretty well. I find it a pretty challenging mech to pilot. You're not fast enough to evade most things, and you will die fast if caught in the open. It requires good situational awareness at all times. You can support your team from afar, but you need to be able to reach it fast enough if you get into trouble.

I tried one with the gauss rifle but i couldn't stand playing with it. Each miss is too costly. Also, losing the gauss rifle hurts too much. Also tried a version with LB-X AC (like the weapon) with a large laser but it didn't work well, and Blackjack with an UAC5 and ER Large Laser was all right but somehow a bit meh.
Prefer 2xAC2 with 6 tons ammo, and 81KPH speed (XL225) with jump jets, very useful long range fire-support and i can afford to miss. Also, constant barrage distracts enemies. 350+ damage easily, if i stay alive.
The only things that give me problems are light mechs. Frigging hate Jenners.

Unfortunately, the novelty of the mech is wearing off. I need something new ASAP.
Perhaps Hunchback HBK-4SP, love that thing. Close range fighter though, which isn't very useful at the moment.

Alternatively, a Stalker, though unfortunately i cannot use them as their purpose in the canon is, a line-breacher mech, since this goddamn game doesn't have lines to breach, and brawling is weak at the moment. Also goddamn expensive.
BTW, should Stalkers have XL engines or not? I've understood that their side torsos are big, but hard to hit from front.

 

[Llyranor]

The trick with the gauss is to not miss.

Constant barrage with AC2's is nice and will deal good damage if the enemy ignores you. But you want to maintain good DPS, that means having to put yourself out there for longer. A few well-aimed shots (or one good alpha) will cripple a jack, so you'd want to avoid exposure as much as possible. Also, gauss+JJ means one shot is all you need before getting back into cover. AC2+JJ seems more awkward if you want to get a good stream of damage. AC2's against lights is almost useless (unless they shut down!), whereas 4medlas will scare them away (and the gauss means you don't increase your heat otherwise).

---

By all means put an XL on a stalker. I'll gladly side-torso you first. And those things ALWAYS get side-torso'ed. Always.

I've been thinking about the poptart problem. Then as I was spectating someone and heard the "fuel at 20%" or whatever voice, it hit me. Why don't they give a finite amount of fuel that doesn't regenerate? Then people won't be able to poptart all match long.

I.... actually like this idea. And if the amount of fuel is directly proportional to the number of JJ's, it'll actually make more JJ's significantly more useful (but at a significant weight cost), rather than the marginal upgrade they are now.

Or at the very least, very slow regen.

 

[Woorloog]

The trick with the gauss is to not miss.

Constant barrage with AC2's is nice and will deal good damage if the enemy ignores you. But you want to maintain good DPS, that means having to put yourself out there for longer. A few well-aimed shots (or one good alpha) will cripple a jack, so you'd want to avoid exposure as much as possible. Also, gauss+JJ means one shot is all you need before getting back into cover. AC2+JJ seems more awkward if you want to get a good stream of damage. AC2's against lights is almost useless (unless they shut down!), whereas 4medlas will scare them away (and the gauss means you don't increase your heat otherwise).

---

But all means put an XL on a stalker. I'll gladly side-torso you first. And those things ALWAYS get side-torso'ed. Always.

Can't avoid missing, inconsistent lowish framerate (25-35 usually, depending on map and amount of action) coupled with occasional lag-spikes (probably ISP or router issue, can't figure this out) is not good for precision sniping. Besides, i don't like sniping really.
Barrage of shells from range is fun.

I use jump jets for traveling (jumping up a cliff is so much better than trying to run one up) and quick turning, i don't jump snipe. Despicable practice.
My Blackjack has heavy armor (for a medium), i can weather a few shots. Of course, i move to cover when i'm shot.
And i try to avoid attacking targets if i'm the only visible target for them. Gotta appear relatively low-priority, and flank enemies and use the range advantage i have.
Lights... Twin medium lasers i have help dealing with them but i have to shoot them with my ACs as well, otherwise i won't be winning. Of course, i need avoid being singled out in the first place, Blackjack is a fire support, not a scout or lone wolf mech.

---
OK, so a Standard engine for Stalkers. Goodbye speed

EDIT limited fuel would suck. Slowish regen is good, or alternatively much increased heat generation.

 

[Llyranor]

Standard engine on a stalker won't make it slower. I refuse to play one with anything less than a 300 engine. 315 is the max I think.

XL just means more firepower. It also means you're a timebomb. Any half-decent team will make short work of you.

 

[Woorloog]

Standard engine on a stalker won't make it slower. I refuse to play one with anything less than a 300 engine. 315 is the max I think.

XL just means more firepower. It also means you're a timebomb. Any half-decent team will make short work of you.

STK-3F Empty
I guess. Max engine, max armor, Endo-Steel and DHS, no equipment. 37 tons free.
I can work with that, considering energy weapons are relatively light.

EDIT AMS required or not? My Blackjack works fine without but what about bigger mechs? LRMs are not very popular ATM in my experience.

 

[Llyranor]

I don't actually use AMS on any of my mechs nowadays. LRMs aren't really causing me much trouble right now.

You can probably even strip off a bit of that leg armor. No one's going to bother legging a stalker unless it's significantly lowered.

 

[Woorloog]

I don't actually use AMS on any of my mechs nowadays. LRMs aren't really causing me much trouble right now.

You can probably even strip off a bit of that leg armor. No one's going to bother legging a stalker unless it's significantly lowered.

As i thought about AMS, not probably needed.

Not sure how i'd actually build a Stalker, this was merely a quick look at how much space and weight it has after the... essentials. But... no bothers legging a Stalker? Hmm. Do people leave its legs low armored often? If yes, i know what i'll shoot next time with my Blackjack.

 

[Nickiepoo]

STK-3F Empty
I guess. Max engine, max armor, Endo-Steel and DHS, no equipment. 37 tons free.
I can work with that, considering energy weapons are relatively light.

EDIT AMS required or not? My Blackjack works fine without but what about bigger mechs? LRMs are not very popular ATM in my experience.

My own Stalker is a very simple build, runs 4LLs with 24 DHSs and a 300 engine with BAP (because there was literally nothing left to put on it). I could drop the BAP and a few heatsinks/engine size and do the same with PPCs. Either way I'd expect to do 400-600 damage in a normal match. I sometimes use AMS on it by dropping a DHS and half a ton of armour, but it's not essential at all, and I really only did that when LRMs were crazy a week ago.

Point being that you probably don't need endo for a stalker because you'll run out of space with DHSs before you run out of weight unless you want to go crazy with backup missle systems and leave your main weapons at risk of overheating, but the thing I like about 4LLs is that they're really nasty and easy to hit with at anything inside of 600m while also being very refirable in a brawl with 24 heatsinks.

 

[Llyranor]

Not sure how i'd actually build a Stalker, this was merely a quick look at how much space and weight it has after the... essentials. But... no bothers legging a Stalker? Hmm. Do people leave its legs low armored often? If yes, i know what i'll shoot next time with my Blackjack.

I'm not telling you to underarmor the legs. You just don't need 65 points on them, when in comparison the front side torso has 48 (which is not hard to miss, by the way). No one is going to spend extra energy trying to leg you if they can remove half your firepower with the same investment. Therefore, 50 is probably enough. If you're in a situation where you lose that leg, a good team would have already incapacitated one of your torso'ed and made you much more useless already.

Personally, I'd frontload the torso armor more, since it still goes away pretty fast in a focused fight. But it's still a gamble, but I've very rarely gotten in trouble from losing my back armor alone without already having my front smashed up.

And yeah, all your really need is a 300STD, and DHS. All the space will be taken up by the heat sinks.

 

[Woorloog]

I'd go for laser+missile weapon mix instead of pure lasers or pure missiles if i'll get a Stalker. I dislike boating one type of weapons. Want some flexibility/options usually.
Besides, mixed builds are just plain... cooler, visually. Well, would be, if missiles spiraled or something.

EDIT again, that wasn't a base build for my mech, just a study of tonnage and space and speed.

 

[Discobird]

I wouldn't use an XL engine in a Stalker since they frequently lose their side torsos before their center. The CT is actually pretty hard to hit from the side (unlike the Catapult).

Mechs to avoid XL on--
* Stalker
* Atlas
* Centurion (if going for a zombie build)
* Hunchback other than the 4SP (everyone aims for the hunch)

I've been thinking about the poptart problem. Then as I was spectating someone and heard the "fuel at 20%" or whatever voice, it hit me. Why don't they give a finite amount of fuel that doesn't regenerate? Then people won't be able to poptart all match long.

RIP Spiders and Jenners

I think the JJ shake is enough to stop poptart sniping on paper, we'll see how it pans out in practice. Poptarting with short range weapons isn't really an issue IMO (no one complains about the 6 MLAS Jenner or the 3 MPLAS Spider or the 3D with an AC-20). Neither is using JJ for general maneuverability an issue.

 

[Woorloog]

Saw a note somewhere that jump jet shake will lead to Stalker PPCs becoming common.
And saw a suggestion to make PPCs splash weapons, ie to reduce pinpoint damage.

 

[Discobird]

Making them splash instead of do pinpoint damage might work in theory although I don't have a lot of faith in PGI to model splash damage correctly given what they've done with LRMs.

PPCs and ERPPCs are just too good at everything. I like the idea of making them weaker in close range, maybe by making the minimum range penalty steeper (it's not very noticeable on PPCs unless you're hugging the PPC user) and adding a minimum range to ERPPCs. And on the flip side, buff SRMs and pulse lasers so that brawlers can knife fight more efficiently than snipers. Right now snipers can brawl almost as well as dedicated brawlers. The latter change would also help medium mechs somewhat since a lot of them rely on SRMs.

 

[Woorloog]

Making them splash instead of do pinpoint damage might work in theory although I don't have a lot of faith in PGI to model splash damage correctly given what they've done with LRMs.

PPCs and ERPPCs are just too good at everything. I like the idea of making them weaker in close range, maybe by making the minimum range penalty steeper (it's not very noticeable on PPCs unless you're hugging the PPC user) and adding a minimum range to ERPPCs. And on the flip side, buff SRMs and pulse lasers so that brawlers can knife fight more efficiently than snipers. Right now snipers can brawl almost as well as dedicated brawlers. The latter change would also help medium mechs somewhat since a lot of them rely on SRMs.

I'd buff all the smaller weapons (but Medium Laser unless necessary after tweaking others), pay attention especially to their efficiency (damage/heat/tonnage ratios). They should be more efficient compared to bigger weapons. Would be a buff for lighter mechs as well.
SRMs and SSRMs need overhauls, give SRMs guidance as per canon (since MRMs in the future will act like rockets) and SSRMs better guidance and accuracy compared to SRMs. And other buffs that are needed, if needed.

PPCs and ERPPCs... Well, i think heat curve changes would fix them more or less. At least would make alphaing many of them impossible. If that wouldn't be enough, other tweaks, probably more reload time, or projectile speed and range tweaks.

 

[Giolon]

I honestly think they could put their heat values back to what they were pre-latest buff (10 PPC, 13 ERPPC). I ran my dual ER-PPC K2 to decent success back in those days, and I could go back to it now.

I have had more "good" matches since the last patch post-missle fix than I've had a while. I consider nearly any 5-8 match a good one, since that usually means both sides were able to go at it for a while.

 

[Llyranor]

Yeah, restoring the PPCs to their pre-buff heats (back when they were considered poor weapons before state rewind) would be a simple easy change from the present alpha culture. But of course, why implement such a simple solution?

 

[Discobird]

I have had more "good" matches since the last patch post-missle fix than I've had a while. I consider nearly any 5-8 match a good one, since that usually means both sides were able to go at it for a while.

I haven't been keeping track of how close my games are, but I have been enjoying myself more since the patch. I attribute that mostly to less Alpine and the introduction of Canyon (which I love) to the rotation.


But then occasionally I get games like this:

We were outweighed by 210 tons on perhaps the least light-friendly map in the game (long sight lines, too small to effectively win on cap alone, and the only fully covered approach is through the caves which are murderous since they added seismic). I duo-dropped with the Cataphract. I couldn't tell if the other lance of lights was premade... I guess this was really the best the matchmaker could come up with the time (it was late at night)?