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[Mithos Yggdrasill]

Ubisoft (the only one that tried, failed, but tried) have 2 platinium titles on the Wii and Nintendo have a lot.
Wii sales are pretty good from a young 9 million userbase, don't you think?
From sales i see that, even if is a casual-centric userbase (from game tastes) as GAF calls, they are buying a lot.
I think GAF is understimating Wii's because the stereotype of the userbase, even if all signs points the oposite. But even publishers are understimating Wii's software sales performance, so i really can't blame.

And i know that for now GTAwii would get outsold by GTAIV, but i'm calling the long term (since Wii western userbase i not even close to X360's one), and WW, all the time.

Well, I think that Dragona is right about some things and wrong for others.

Right, because the userbase of the X360 is VERY hardcore, and the very high attach rate and sales for many games are the proof.

Wrong, because Dragona exclude the possibility that new gamers can become hardcore gamers, at least partly. Yeah, that's exactly the strategy of Nintendo: attract who's never played before with "non-games" first, and then make them potential new hardcore gamers giving them games like Mario Galaxy or Smash.
The japanese audience is the most casual of the three big marketplace. Why then Dragon Quest Swords sold that well ? It is not an casual game.

The interesting thing about the Wii isn't the old idea that there exist only casual and hardcore players. These two categories are not separated. The hardcore gamer cannot become casual easily (as games on the X360 like Vina Pinata showed), but the casual gamer, after the games he tried because they were easy to use and "not intimidating", could be interested to play more games and, easily, could switch to hardcore games. I mean: is it so strange after all ? Nobody is born as hardcore player. We were ALL casual once. DS and Wii are as the NES and the Playstation have been: consoles that expand the market and convert casual players to true gamers.

 

[sphinx]

The numbers don't lie, the 360 has an insane tie-ratio, and Capcom alone already has two platinum titles. That's crazy. The 360 is basically the hardest of the hardcore players, and tend to buy many more games compared to the casual-centric Wii.

When the Wii userbase gets larger and we see games sell more, maybe we could argue it, but for now? GTAIV 360 would utterly destroy a GTAWii.

I know you guys are talking about 3rd parties 360 vs Wii but the hardcore attitude of 360 owners can be seen across each of the 3 main regions, not only US. Even Japanese 360 gamers have a 1st class radar for big/important games. Just yesterday Oblivion on 360 sold 35K in japan. I doubt Folksoul on PS3 achieved that. Forza 2 in Europe has been doing amazing ( across many countries but specially in UK, it appeared many weeks on the TOP showing great legs ).

in the whole 360 vs Wii 3rd party software sales, I also believe the 360 has the upper hand, just because of the very nature of its fanbase. Wii owners, specially the casuals, can do well with 1 game each 4 or 5 months. 360 owners just wouldn't quite do it.

Even if the hardware isn't very welcome in some areas ( Japan and Europe ) those who do buy it, are GREAT software buyers and if I was a 3rd party publisher interested in bringing content with great graphics and power into the market, the 360 is definitely a no brainer... sorry, PS3.

 

[ksamedi]

Well, I think that Dragona is right about some things and wrong for others.

Right, because the userbase of the X360 is VERY hardcore, and the very high attach rate and sales for many games are the proof.

Wrong, because Dragona exclude the possibility that new gamers can become hardcore gamers, at least partly. Yeah, that's exactly the strategy of Nintendo: attract who's never played before with "non-games" first, and then make them potential new hardcore gamers giving them games like Mario Galaxy or Smash.
The japanese audience is the most casual of the three big marketplace. Why then Dragon Quest Swords sold that well ? It is not an casual game.

The interesting thing about the Wii isn't the old idea that there exist only casual and hardcore players. These two categories are not separated. The hardcore gamer cannot become casual easily (as games on the X360 like Vina Pinata showed), but the casual gamer, after the games he tried because they were easy to use and "not intimidating", could be interested to play more games and, easily, could switch to hardcore games. I mean: is it so strange after all ? Nobody is born as hardcore player. We were ALL casual once. DS and Wii are as the NES and the Playstation have been: consoles that expand the market and convert casual players to true gamers.

Thats only one part of the strategy, the main goal is to try to sell software to every member of the family instead of just the gamer inside that family. Thats why the Wii is designed to stay in the living room.

 

[LanceStern]

Well, I think that Dragona is right about some things and wrong for others.

Right, because the userbase of the X360 is VERY hardcore, and the very high attach rate and sales for many games are the proof.

Wrong, because Dragona exclude the possibility that new gamers can become hardcore gamers, at least partly. Yeah, that's exactly the strategy of Nintendo: attract who's never played before with "non-games" first, and then make them potential new hardcore gamers giving them games like Mario Galaxy or Smash.
The japanese audience is the most casual of the three big marketplace. Why then Dragon Quest Swords sold that well ? It is not an casual game.

How is DQS if anyone has played it? It seems like both a hardcore and casual game at the same time. Just pick up the remote and slash your way to victory, or spend time strategizing your team and whatnot.

The interesting thing about the Wii isn't the old idea that there exist only casual and hardcore players. These two categories are not separated. The hardcore gamer cannot become casual easily (as games on the X360 like Vina Pinata showed), but the casual gamer, after the games he tried because they were easy to use and "not intimidating", could be interested to play more games and, easily, could switch to hardcore games. I mean: is it so strange after all ? Nobody is born as hardcore player. We were ALL casual once. DS and Wii are as the NES and the Playstation have been: consoles that expand the market and convert casual players to true gamers.

I agree. I loved licensed videogames (tiny toons, Animaniacs, AH! Real monsters etc.) as a child. I could care less about Zelda or Metroid or Ninja Gaiden and whatnot. Just give me the familiar characters, and then as I grew up and my tastes grew, I could pick up more hardcore games.

Another good reason for licensed titles to do well, which they currentkly are underrperforming this generation: they build up the hardcore userbase

 

[Twilight Princess]

The numbers don't lie, the 360 has an insane tie-ratio, and Capcom alone already has two platinum titles. That's crazy. The 360 is basically the hardest of the hardcore players, and tend to buy many more games compared to the casual-centric Wii.

When the Wii userbase gets larger and we see games sell more, maybe we could argue it, but for now? GTAIV 360 would utterly destroy a GTAWii.

I agree. The sad thing is: a new FE would probly sell more on the 360 than on the wii.

 

[LanceStern]

360 has bigger userbase when it comes to Madden and COD. Sonic, Rayman, and Red Steel all did fine. GTA isn't on the Wii, you can't compare it yet. I won't argue that 360's software is great, it's more then great, but it doesn't make the Wii's shit. All third party game's released on Wii so far deserve whatever numbers they got, except Red Steel - that sucked.

Dewy's Adventure too please Vinnk.

I believe in the same timeframe and userbase... the Xbox360 still sold more software than Wii in terms of Madden, Call of Duty, need for speed (all capping at under 300k NO PUN INTENDED) and other 3rd party titles floundering.

The Wii doesn't have the correct audience for those type of 3rd party games. Nintendo systems in general don't have that audience.

Sadly, I think a FE would sell more on 360 than Wii

I'd have to agree and disagree there. The artstyle and general feel (Japaense traditional warfare, fantasy etc) of FE I don't think would sell too big on 360. But the general turn based strategy in the FE vein, yes I believe would sell well. AT least with a big front loaded month

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I agree. The sad thing is: a new FE would probly sell more on the 360 than on the wii.

Haha, it's prolly true.

 

[rakka]

The Wii doesn't have the correct audience for those type of 3rd party games. Nintendo systems in general don't have that audience.

Oh great more Dewy.

360 > Wii in software sales any day (at least from what we've seen so far)

However, with your logic the PS3 doesn't have the correct audience for those type of 3rd party games right? Wii versions in general are doing better than the PS3 versions. (due to larger userbase)

 

[ksamedi]

To say that the Wii hasnt the correct audiance for some type of third party games while its on track to sell 100 million is just insane.

 

[RiskyChris]

To say that the Wii hasnt the correct audiance for some type of third party games while its on track to sell 100 million is just insane.

I've given up trying to tell people that a market leader can't have a homogeneous demographic. It's madness.

It's funny when people point at N64 and GC as examples of Nintendo systems where 1st party dominated. They didn't have the PS2 userbase.

 

[Oblivion]

I've given up trying to tell people that a market leader can't have a homogeneous demographic. It's madness.

It's funny when people point at N64 and GC as examples of Nintendo systems where 1st party dominated. They didn't have the PS2 userbase.

Or PS2 level support. What is the tie ratio for Wii and 360 currently?

Also, not surprised in the least that Dewy bombed.

 

[ethelred]

Ubisoft (the only one that tried, failed, but tried) have 2 platinium titles on the Wii and Nintendo have a lot.

No, Ubisoft has two games that have shipped a million worldwide. Meanwhile Ubisoft has GRAW on 360 that has sold (as in, to consumers) well over a million in the US alone and Rainbow Six Vegas that's come pretty close as well.

No comparison.

Wii sales are pretty good from a young 9 million userbase, don't you think?

Not compared to the 360.

I think GAF is understimating Wii's because the stereotype of the userbase, even if all signs points the oposite.

All the signs point to 360 software demolishing Wii software. That's not a stereotype -- it's cold, hard numbers.

I dont agree with 360 software sales slaugthering the Wii software sales

Honestly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. Numbers are numbers -- they're factual and objective, not subjective opinions up for disagreement.

If you compare software sales on both platforms, (despite the Wii having a smaller userbase in the US) the Wii is doing very well. Those so called casuals sure do buy games.

Not in comparison to the hardcore on the 360! God, what's so hard to get here?

I agree. The sad thing is: a new FE would probly sell more on the 360 than on the wii.

It'd sell more on the DS than on any other system. Get with it, IntSys!

 

[ksamedi]

I've given up trying to tell people that a market leader can't have a homogeneous demographic. It's madness.

It's funny when people point at N64 and GC as examples of Nintendo systems where 1st party dominated. They didn't have the PS2 userbase.

Ill try to help you with your cause. A console that does double the competition is the console with the widest appeal, meaning that it sells to a very diverce audiance. If anything, id say the PS3 and to a lesses extend the 360 has a demographics problem, not the Wii.

 

[ksamedi]

So where did you get those software numbers Ethelred?

 

[rakka]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. Numbers are numbers -- they're factual and objective, not subjective opinions up for disagreement.

And numbers show that Wii multiplat titles are selling better than on the PS3, right? Tie ratio is not important here, only how many copies sold.

---

360 is far ahead so no need to go there.

 

[Version 3.0]

The 360 demographic isn't buying everything, they're buying certain games. It's not like ALL 360 software is pushing into the millions. How did licensed games like Open Season, Ninja Turtles, or Cars do? How did cross-platform/ports like Godfather, GUN, Quake4, etc do?

It seems to me that the 360's game sales are pretty top-heavy. Just because the "good" games (according to us) are the ones selling doesn't mean all the publishers or dev teams are ecstatic with their 360 games' performance.

I'm really not up to speed with these numbers, so correct me if I'm wrong. These are the impressions I get, though. The 360 has a superb tie ratio, but I was under the impression that the Wii does, too.

I don't see that any of the current gen systems has a somewhat even, healthy sales spread like that of the PS1/PS2.

 

[jarrod]

Wii 3rd party sales aren't that bad, relative to it's introduction and factoring in the increased competition from Nintendo's own catalog. It already has 2 3rd party million sellers, which is exactly how many 360 had a year ago fwiw (COD2 & GRAW).

That said, a hypothetical GTA4 Wii would definitely get slaughtered by the 360 version this October.

 

[KINGMOKU]

No, Ubisoft has two games that have shipped a million worldwide. Meanwhile Ubisoft has GRAW on 360 that has sold (as in, to consumers) well over a million in the US alone and Rainbow Six Vegas that's come pretty close as well.

No comparison.



Not compared to the 360.



All the signs point to 360 software demolishing Wii software. That's not a stereotype -- it's cold, hard numbers.



Honestly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. Numbers are numbers -- they're factual and objective, not subjective opinions up for disagreement.



Not in comparison to the hardcore on the 360! God, what's so hard to get here?



It'd sell more on the DS than on any other system. Get with it, IntSys!

I take umbrance with alot of what you just stated.

You know damn well, there a huge difference between game sales on the Wii, and 360 just based off of games available, mostly from third-parties. We all know that third-parties got caught with thier pants down with the Wii. Thus the multitude of ports, and rushed half-assed games.

360 has been getting killer titles almost from the get.

If the Wii keeps selling like it is, game sales for the Wii, for any type of game head-to-head with the 360, will be a joke. You start putting all those killer third-party titles on the Wii, and you will see excellent game sales, and if the userbase gets high enough, no contest.


As for current game sales, are you taking all first-party titles out of the mix~Lance?

 

[felipeko]

No, Ubisoft has two games that have shipped a million worldwide. Meanwhile Ubisoft has GRAW on 360 that has sold (as in, to consumers) well over a million in the US alone and Rainbow Six Vegas that's come pretty close as well.

So you comparing the sales of GRAW, an well made and known game, to Red Steel, an everything but a good game, now?
Like you said, no comparison.

Not compared to the 360.

Only if you compare 21 months of X360 vs 9 monts of Wii. Someone with good numbers can show you this. In 9 months Wii has sold a lot of software, WW and NA.

All the signs point to 360 software demolishing Wii software. That's not a stereotype -- it's cold, hard numbers.

And i hope you can prove me that. I'm still waiting.
Numbers show me that Wii have 8 million sellers. And X360 have 10 million sellers.
Oh, and X360 have been on the market 12 months early.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. Numbers are numbers -- they're factual and objective, not subjective opinions up for disagreement.

Do a fair comparison with the numbers, than we can talk.

And by fair i mean:
-Don't take Nintendo out, software sales are software sales.;
-Don't count 21 months of X360 against 9 months of Wii;
-Don't use rushed ports as example of bad sales;
-If you're going to use NA sales on multiplataform titles, you should take in consideration the size of both userbase (since Wii is constantly sold out, we know the userbase of Wii could be higher, so it's hurting it potential in selling software)

I mean, nothing wrong asking that, right?

And if you look at 1st half of 2007 of NPD, even if you take out Wii play, you would have this:
6. Guitar Hero II - Xbox 360 (Activision)
7. Mario Party 8 - Wii (Nintendo)
8. Crackdown - Xbox 360 (Microsoft)
10. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Wii (Nintendo)
I see no slaughtering here.
And if you come saying "no big releases on x360 side", then look at Wii releases first half.


With that i think it's fair to say that they are buying a lot of software on Wii. The only point maybe you guys have, is the taste of the userbase. But to call that its sales are being slaughtered is just a lie.

 

[KINGMOKU]

So you comparing the sales of GRAW, an well made and known game, to Red Steel, an everything but a good game, now?
Like you said, no comparison.

Only if you compare 21 months of X360 vs 9 monts of Wii. Someone with good numbers can show you this. In 9 months Wii has sold a lot of software, WW and NA.

And i hope you can prove me that. I'm still waiting.
Numbers show me that Wii have 8 million sellers. And X360 have 10 million sellers.
Oh, and X360 have been on the market 12 months early.

Do a fair comparison with the numbers, than we can talk.

And by fair i mean:
-Don't take Nintendo out, software sales are software sales.;
-Don't count 21 months of X360 against 9 months of Wii;
-Don't use rushed ports as example of bad sales;
-If you're going to use NA sales on multiplataform titles, you should take in consideration the size of both userbase (since Wii is constantly sold out, we know the userbase of Wii could be higher, so it's hurting it potential in selling software)

I mean, nothing wrong asking that, right?

And if you look at 1st half of 2007 of NPD, even if you take out Wii play, you would have this:
6. Guitar Hero II - Xbox 360 (Activision)
7. Mario Party 8 - Wii (Nintendo)
8. Crackdown - Xbox 360 (Microsoft)
10. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Wii (Nintendo)
I see no slaughtering here.
And if you come saying "no big releases on x360 side", then look at Wii releases first half.


With that i think it's fair to say that they are buying a lot of software on Wii. The only point maybe you guys have, is the taste of the userbase. But to call that its sales are being slaughtered is just a lie.

Thank you for making my thought make more sense than mine.

ethelred is on the hot seat now. You cant make claims like that, and boast about something that, as he would say;

"Numbers are numbers -- they're factual and objective, not subjective opinions up for disagreement.

I'm going to get some popcorn, and perhaps some hot-pockets for this one. Gonna be a gooden.

 

[Jokeropia]

Not compared to the 360.

You're still ignoring Nintendo first party sales here. The top two Wii games have outperformed the top two 360 games in April, May and June in the US, Wii games perform better or at least equally to 360 games on PAL charts and obviously win Japan by default. (Where it also has the highest tie-ratio of a new console since 1994.) Worldwide, the best selling Wii games beat the best selling 360 games.

Really misleading to call it a slaughter IMO.

 

[BishopLamont]

ethelred took the torch this week, brave, brave man. Lance you can have your break now.

 

[schuelma]

ethelred took the torch this week, brave, brave man. Lance you can have your break now.

Huh? If you're saying ethelred is the "MC Stupid poster of the week" then you're mistaken.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Well, to be fair, that's the impression the 360's insane tie rate gives. Add to the fact that people tend to discount WiiSports and WiiPlay, and Nintendo in general, and I don't blame ethelred for thinking that the Wii's tie ratio was something to sneeze at.

However, looking at the numbers as just numbers, the Wii compares favorably with the 360 if you compare the two in their first 9 months.

This is, of course, a little biased towards the Wii, but I think that after Christmas such handicaps will not be necessary.

 

[BishopLamont]

Huh? If you're saying ethelred is the "MC Stupid poster of the week" then you're mistaken.

Not MC Stupid poster of the week, that belongs to some other junior that I forgot the name right now. But the "against the grain" poster of the week.

 

[schuelma]

Well, to be fair, that's the impression the 360's insane tie rate gives. Add to the fact that people tend to discount WiiSports and WiiPlay, and Nintendo in general, and I don't blame ethelred for thinking that the Wii's tie ratio was something to sneeze at.

However, looking at the numbers as just numbers, the Wii compares favorably with the 360 if you compare the two in their first 9 months.

This is, of course, a little biased towards the Wii, but I think that after Christmas such handicaps will not be necessary.

I'm usually all for defending Wii's software sales, but until there is a surefire 3rd party smash I don't think you can use Nintendo's 1st party success to predict GTA sales.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Who's talking about GTA sales? I'm not being dragged into that insane conversation. I'm just talking about sales in general.

Although, if it were a new GTA, I think it'd be a toss up, but it'd probably do well in the U.S. I want to put a solid number behind that, but I'm not really sure how'd it do. I just know that it wouldn't be ignored by Wii owners, but I also don't know if the userbase is large enough to propel it to stratospheric heights.

If it's a port, then it probably wouldn't do too well, unless there was a good marketing campaign emphasizing the Wii-controls, which I heard were good on Godfather.

 

[schuelma]

Who's talking about GTA sales? I'm not being dragged into that insane conversation. I'm just talking about sales in general.

Although, if it were a new GTA, I think it'd be a toss up, but it'd probably do well in the U.S. I want to put a solid number behind that, but I'm not really sure how'd it do. I just know that it wouldn't be ignored by Wii owners, but I also don't know if the userbase is large enough to propel it to stratospheric heights.

If it's a port, then it probably wouldn't do too well, unless there was a good marketing campaign emphasizing the Wii-controls, which I heard were good on Godfather.

If I've followed the conversation correctly, the initial discussion was on how GTA would sell on Wii compared to 360.

 

[rakka]

If I've followed the conversation correctly, the initial discussion was on how GTA would sell on Wii compared to 360.

And the PS3.

But for some reason thats being ignored :-\

 

[SouthernDragon]

Oh, well, that's what I get for meddling in a page where I didn't read the preceding context.

My point was that ethelred's mistake could have been anyone's and he shouldn't be roasted for it.

Although, if he can pull numbers proving he's correct, then... Well, that'll be impressive.

I'll step out of the conversation now, since it isn't what I thought it was. I thought the GTA thing died last page. I was mistaken.

 

[PantherLotus]

You guys and your 'casual vs. hardcore' fallacy. Ridiculous. They're extremely poor and inaccurate labels invented by the insecure to help sort games by genre.

Rather than worry about which "casual" games will appeal to ''hardcore'' gamers, or vice versa, we would be better off discussing specifically what audience each game may have a crossover appeal to.

And for the record, it's complete bullshit to think that a gamer that likes deeper games may not like games that are not as deep. Viva Pinata didn't sell not because hardcore gamers don't like casual games, it didn't sell because it didn't appeal to them. Tetris isn't one of the best selling games in history (and most emulated) because "hardcore people like it too," but because it has a UNIVERSAL APPEAL.

Casual vs. Hardcore has to stop now. I know it's throwing sand in the ocean at this point, but these assumptions that all games fall into one or the other category, moreover that gamers are either one or the other, has to stop immediately. Call the games what they are (edutainment? arcade? party? kids? etc) and stop trying to classify gamers as well. Rather than trying to separate them into two singular audiences, have a little depth (and education) and realize that we're talking about DEMOGRAPHICS. Specify which you mean or keep looking foolish.

Meanwhile, the two terms continue to hamper industry minds in its simplicity, and continue to poison our otherwise fascinating discussion. I've said my piece. Carry on.

 

[LanceStern]

Matter of fact I'm best left out of the conversation.

PantherLotus I like having 3 labels: Casual, Informed and Hardcore. Either way, to defend myself wwhen I said Wii doesn't have and Nintendo has never had, the audience for Madden, GTA, Need for Speed, Call of Duty, etc..

Just look at past Nintendo System sales for these type of mature, I want to say adult titles. These are the type of games a certain, particular audience will go for: car enthusiasts, football fans, mature, thrill-seeking, young adults... and Nintendo just doesn't have that audience in bulk yet.

When it does have that audience, the titles still don't sell on the system. Firstly, I'd like to see how Madden 2008 and Need for Speed sells on the Wii this year (I think it'll do less than both PS3 and 360 versions), and then I'd like to see it in 2 years with Wii's expanded audience.

It just doesn't seem like Nintendo is able to capture that demographic.

 

[felipeko]

Well, GTA thing kinda of died when someone said X360 software sales slaughtered Wii's (and people kind of agreed that in long term we can't assume anything yet).


Great post Panther.
That's exactly what i've been saying about stereotyped userbases, and GAF consensus...

 

[charlequin]

Huh? If you're saying ethelred is the "MC Stupid poster of the week" then you're mistaken.

Very true.

It sounds like some of you don't really understand the situation here.

Wii's sub-ideal 3rd party software sales are, to some degree, attributable to a paucity of solid 3rd party efforts. To some degree, we've seen B+ to A- efforts rewarded with sales, while poorer games have been rejected by the market -- I expect this to improve to some degree as the system cements its lead and superior titles are released for it.

However, 360's US software sales are anomalous compared to other consoles. The system has an abnormally high tie ratio; in addition (and more importantly) not only do the AAA titles do good numbers, but the B-list titles do astonishing numbers. It is unambiguous that the 360's currently bought-in market consists of an abnormally large number of gamers with high title turnover; they're looking for new games to play on an extremely frequent basis and as a result will eagerly purchase every AAA title, and freely purchase many B-list titles to fill their gaming schedule.

This group is also more likely to buy the 360 version of a Wii/60 cross-platform title, if they own both systems, since they're more likely to have an HD set.

Marketplace pressures are going to improve Wii sales over time simply because its worldwide success will grow and more and more software will be released for it, leading more and more high-budget gamers to purchase it. For the moment, though, the Wii is at best hanging out in a "typical" bracket of software sales -- comparable to the low end of a traditional market leader, maybe a little lower -- while X360 is clearly well above average in its ability to move software.

EDIT: I agree with PantherLotus that "hardcore" and "casual" are shitty words, especially because so much of GAF has such a ludicrously inaccurate idea of what each entails. :lol X360 has a specific model of gamers who buy an unusually large number of titles; Wii may or may not have plenty of "serious" gamers but it doesn't have a high-title-turnover audience.

 

[Lobster]

Dewy less then 1k first day? Japanese are monsters

 

[titiklabingapat]

No, slaughtered was exactly the right word to use. And you're right, Wii third party software isn't lagging compared to the Xbox 360's third party software -- it's moribund. I mean, I take it we're talking about worldwide here, right? Beating out the PS3 (which I guess is a high achievement), isn't the same thing as the 360.

Compare Wii Madden sales vs. 360; compare Call of Duty Wii sales vs. 360; compare all the top-selling third party Wii games vs. 360 (Sonic, Rayman, Red Steel, etc.) -- everything is drastically behind. And GTA is far more tailored to the userbase the 360 has been accumulating than it is the Wii's.

There just wouldn't be any competition there. To believe otherwise is to admit that one has completely and totally ignored the 360 software phenomenon.



None of that will matter. Yeah, bigger userbase, okay. Have you seen 300? Because that's basically what we have here. There may be fewer 360s but as far as software sales go, each one is worth a dozen Wiis.

360 software phenomenon is a bit overblown and Wii software downplayed a bit. The Wii, with half the userbase is already doing comparable numbers, relative to userbase size. Of course, third parties aren't doing as well but they have to start comparable releases first. Much more mediocre titles are even doing better on the Wii. Wario Ware, Mario Party 8, Red Steel, Rayman Raving Rabbids. WII SPORTS.

Over all, Wii software is very healthy. If you include first party. I don't get why you had to restrict to third parties anyway. The current situation already shows that wii owners DO BUY software, regardless of anything else.

 

[MasterMFauli]

Dewy less then 1k first day? Japanese are monsters

No, they just realized "Hm, Konami gives us Dewy while they give PS3 MGS4..."

 

[Lobster]

No, they just realized "Hm, Konami gives us Dewy while they give PS3 MGS4..."

They didn't buy a Wii game because of a Ps3 game?

 

[MasterMFauli]

They didn't buy a Wii game because of a Ps3 game?

Nah, they just felt like being made fun of, with such a difference in game-quality.

 

[KINGMOKU]

Hmm. Maybe I didnt understand the whole context of this conversation.


I thought overall software sales were bieng discussed here.

Comparing third-party sales is pointless becuase of the massive difference in quality bieng offered up to the 360, and the Wii. No contest.

 

[BishopLamont]

I don't think game quality has anything to do with Dewy's shortcoming. Who in the right mind look's at Dewy and not think it's fun? I think Dewy should at the very least appeal to Elebits fans, first day sales suggest otherwise.

About the whole 3rd party thing, we can go on and on about it, but in the end Wii's software is doing great, doesn't matter if the majority of the sales are by Nintendo. Why do people act like Nintendo owes something to third party? If they want to do well, then they better start putting in the effort. When they do put in an effort, some titles are bound to bomb, and people will keep crying "third party don't sell". But that's not Nintendo's fault, it's the nature of the industry. Not all third party games were a success on the PS1/PS2.

Established third parties (EA, Konami, SE, Bandai-Namco, THQ) can release any of their established franchises for any console and it'll still sell. But when it comes to small developers, everyone can guess what console they'll develop for.

 

[ksamedi]

I don't think game quality has anything to do with Dewy's shortcoming. Who in the right mind look's at Dewy and not think it's fun? I think Dewy should at the very least appeal to Elebits fans, first day sales suggest otherwise.

Well Elebits looked interesting to me (although i dindnt buy it) but i was never interested in Dewy. It just doesnt have mass appeal and its more of kids game than a standard platformer.

 

[ethelred]

So you comparing the sales of GRAW, an well made and known game, to Red Steel, an everything but a good game, now?
Like you said, no comparison.

Obviously being a good game helps a game sell better. But yeah, at a certain point you just have to say, regardless of the quality factors involved, one game sold much, much better than the other. In the US, GRAW sold more than twice as much as Red Steel and Rayman combined. To simply brush that aside and imply Wii's third party software performance is comparable misses the boat.

Only if you compare 21 months of X360 vs 9 monts of Wii. Someone with good numbers can show you this. In 9 months Wii has sold a lot of software, WW and NA.

The Wii has sold a lot of software, but again, not as much as the 360 has -- even when looking at narrowly defined comparable timeframes the 360 far eclipses it. You keep acting like I'm somehow impugning the Wii by pointing out that the 360's third party software sales are in another league entirely. That defensiveness isn't really necessary. No one's attacking the machine.

And i hope you can prove me that. I'm still waiting.
Numbers show me that Wii have 8 million sellers. And X360 have 10 million sellers.

We're having a conversation specifically about third party games, though. I've never put forth an argument, as some have, that Nintendo's own software sales should be ignored ex ante in any overall sales discussion, but they are an irrelevance in a discussion specifically tailored towards third party potential. As such, yeah, we're not looking at Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Play, Super Paper Mario, et al.

Even if those first party games are included, though, the 360 tie ratio is still fantastically higher. So that alone should tell you something... no?

-Don't use rushed ports as example of bad sales;

The games sell as the games sell. I'm not concerned with making mysef the arbiter of their quality. It's too easy, then, for you to dismiss the game sales you don't like and only include those favorable to your argument. Sure, if you narrow the analysis down to only those games you think are quality enough to be included (whereas quality is mostly equated to success), then yes, you're going to get a list mostly devoid of failures -- this is how an argument is made?

Madden 07 on the 360 is a million seller. Madden 07 on the Wii is anything but. Is that because one is a shoddy rushed port? Not my place to make that determination -- I only care that one sold much, much more than the other. And if your interest is in making a fair analysis, that should be your goal here, too.

ethelred is on the hot seat now. You cant make claims like that, and boast about something that, as he would say;

Oh, I'm on the hot seat? I'm sorry, Moku... were you expecting me to just back off my argument? Has anything in my history here brought others to the conclusion that I'm somehow scared of standing behind arguments I've made? Well, here's your response, then.

Maybe I didnt understand the whole context of this conversation.

Maybe so!

Casual vs. Hardcore has to stop now.

Absolutely, it does. It's really not an instructive phrase to toss about.

 

[Cheesemeister]

I've said my piece. Carry on.

Are the charts going bi-weekly or monthly? Do I need to automate them? =(

 

[KINGMOKU]

Obviously being a good game helps a game sell better. But yeah, at a certain point you just have to say, regardless of the quality factors involved, one game sold much, much better than the other. In the US, GRAW sold more than twice as much as Red Steel and Rayman combined. To simply brush that aside and imply Wii's third party software performance is comparable misses the boat.



The Wii has sold a lot of software, but again, not as much as the 360 has -- even when looking at narrowly defined comparable timeframes the 360 far eclipses it. You keep acting like I'm somehow impugning the Wii by pointing out that the 360's third party software sales are in another league entirely. That defensiveness isn't really necessary. No one's attacking the machine.



We're having a conversation specifically about third party games, though. I've never put forth an argument, as some have, that Nintendo's own software sales should be ignored ex ante in any overall sales discussion, but they are an irrelevance in a discussion specifically tailored towards third party potential. As such, yeah, we're not looking at Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Play, Super Paper Mario, et al.

Even if those first party games are included, though, the 360 tie ratio is still fantastically higher. So that alone should tell you something... no?



The games sell as the games sell. I'm not concerned with making mysef the arbiter of their quality. It's too easy, then, for you to dismiss the game sales you don't like and only include those favorable to your argument. Sure, if you narrow the analysis down to only those games you think are quality enough to be included (whereas quality is mostly equated to success), then yes, you're going to get a list mostly devoid of failures -- this is how an argument is made?

Madden 07 on the 360 is a million seller. Madden 07 on the Wii is anything but. Is that because one is a shoddy rushed port? Not my place to make that determination -- I only care that one sold much, much more than the other. And if your interest is in making a fair analysis, that should be your goal here, too.




Oh, I'm on the hot seat? I'm sorry, Moku... were you expecting me to just back off my argument? Has anything in my history here brought others to the conclusion that I'm somehow scared of standing behind arguments I've made? Well, here's your response, then.



Absolutely, it does. It's really not an instructive phrase to toss about.

C'mon. We havnt had a good heated debate in a MCthread in awhile. It's not your normal dillusional rant from someone crazy, or someone who just cant tell reality from a gameshow.

It's you, stirring the pot.

I brought popcorn.

 

[ksamedi]

Obviously being a good game helps a game sell better. But yeah, at a certain point you just have to say, regardless of the quality factors involved, one game sold much, much better than the other. In the US, GRAW sold more than twice as much as Red Steel and Rayman combined. To simply brush that aside and imply Wii's third party software performance is comparable misses the boat.



The Wii has sold a lot of software, but again, not as much as the 360 has -- even when looking at narrowly defined comparable timeframes the 360 far eclipses it. You keep acting like I'm somehow impugning the Wii by pointing out that the 360's third party software sales are in another league entirely. That defensiveness isn't really necessary. No one's attacking the machine.



We're having a conversation specifically about third party games, though. I've never put forth an argument, as some have, that Nintendo's own software sales should be ignored ex ante in any overall sales discussion, but they are an irrelevance in a discussion specifically tailored towards third party potential. As such, yeah, we're not looking at Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Play, Super Paper Mario, et al.

Even if those first party games are included, though, the 360 tie ratio is still fantastically higher. So that alone should tell you something... no?



The games sell as the games sell. I'm not concerned with making mysef the arbiter of their quality. It's too easy, then, for you to dismiss the game sales you don't like and only include those favorable to your argument. Sure, if you narrow the analysis down to only those games you think are quality enough to be included (whereas quality is mostly equated to success), then yes, you're going to get a list mostly devoid of failures -- this is how an argument is made?

Madden 07 on the 360 is a million seller. Madden 07 on the Wii is anything but. Is that because one is a shoddy rushed port? Not my place to make that determination -- I only care that one sold much, much more than the other. And if your interest is in making a fair analysis, that should be your goal here, too.




Oh, I'm on the hot seat? I'm sorry, Moku... were you expecting me to just back off my argument? Has anything in my history here brought others to the conclusion that I'm somehow scared of standing behind arguments I've made? Well, here's your response, then.



Maybe so!



Absolutely, it does. It's really not an instructive phrase to toss about.

I still dont know where you get your numbers from, and didnt Wii Tiger outsell 360 Tiger WW? Its still charting in the UK if i recall correctly.

 

[BishopLamont]

Well Elebits looked interesting to me (although i dindnt buy it) but i was never interested in Dewy. It just doesnt have mass appeal and its more of kids game than a standard platformer.

It might look like a kids game, but it sure doesn't look like a kids game gameplay wise. It shouldn't play like a standard platformer, Konami shouldn't be punished for experimenting with the Wiimote, isn't that what we are all striving for?

 

[ksamedi]

It might look like a kids game, but it sure doesn't look like a kids game gameplay wise. It shouldn't play like a standard platformer, Konami shouldn't be punished for experimenting with the Wiimote, isn't that what we are all striving for?

Yeah sure, but Dewy just doesnt have mass appeal. Maybe it will do better in the US, although i very much doubt it. Those guys should hire better producers that can point out what needs to be done for games to sell, interesting gameplay is not always enough.

 

[BishopLamont]

Yeah sure, but Dewy just doesnt have mass appeal. Maybe it will do better in the US, although i very much doubt it. Those guys should hire better producers that can point out what needs to be done for games to sell, interesting gameplay is not always enough.

It'll never happen, they're too busy polishing Snakes "ahem".

 

[ksamedi]

It'll never happen, they're too busy polishing Snakes "ahem".

Speaking of snakes, im beginning to think that the PS3 will suffer the same fate as the Cube in terms of software sales. Even games like Metal Gear could struggle for 500k if the current situation continiues.