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[Chumly]

It's worth pointing out.

For better or worse, discussions here make it seem like MMV is almost a 2nd party for Nintendo consoles.

Truth is that MMV is also being successful on the psp.

Very successful.... PSP was second best in Japan last year I believe for them and forecasted to be the best this year.

 

[slaughterking]

Who owns the IP?

I heard it was based off something by Sony, maybe not.

I don't know, but maybe you are mixing Yuusha 30 up with Yuusha no Kuse ni Namaikida, which was also a 8-bit centric game on the PSP and indeed published by Sony.

 

[d+pad]

Doesn't NSMBWii come out in late November though? If so, August -> December seems too far away if there isn't something big in-between...

Well, it's more like: MH3, Wii Fit Plus, Tales of Graces, Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympics, New SMB Wii, probably FFCC: The Crytal Bearers, etc. There are quite a few titles that *could* do well between now and the holidays...

 

[Durante]

Yes and you also approvingly started an official thread for Cross Edge which is sitting pretty with a 47 Metacritic and qualifies as nigh-shovelware (or shitware, garbageware, kusoge, or whatever the hell else you want to call it) so I think we can probably release an 8-1 opinion finding that "Even if you enjoy shovelware, it's still shovelware" and let your blistering dissent go down in the history books.

Your sarcasm is appreciated, but I would have thought that you knew the difference between Gust and Compile Heart.
By the way, regardless of the latter's "shovelware developer" status, Cross Edge has by far the most interesting battle system out of any current-gen JRPG -- it also has indefensible graphics, sound (!) and plot, but with all the people always going on at GAF about how gameplay >> all you'd expect it to be more popular.

It's not meant to be a knock on Gust in specific, and I think by Durante saying "Gust and others", the implication is pretty clearly that he feels that the others (Compile Heart, Idea Factory, the part of Red Entertainment that does this stuff--I'm sure there are others) are also not shovelware companies.

For the record, this is absolutely not the case. I included "and others" thinking specifically of N1 (who also fit well into the original context of the remark, with all the flak they took for putting Disgaea 3 on PS3).

 

[Meier]

Wow, just saw the WSR number. Surprisingly low.. I guess they had to pay for the original there so that didn't help, but still -- that's pretty shocking. The actual number shipped is rather low too (comparitively speaking).

 

[schuelma]

Wow, just saw the WSR number. Surprisingly low.. I guess they had to pay for the original there so that didn't help, but still -- that's pretty shocking. The actual number shipped is rather low too (comparitively speaking).

It really isn't low at all.

In fact, if it doubles its first day, which it should do easily, it will be the highest "Wii" title debut and the third highest Wii debut period.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Wow, just saw the WSR number. Surprisingly low.. I guess they had to pay for the original there so that didn't help, but still -- that's pretty shocking.

Ehh? Even if it sold nothing after day 1, there would only be a handful of better first weeks this year. Since that's not the case, there are only three games that give it much first week competition, and they're all much more frontloaded: Yakuza 3, RE5 PS3, and Kingdom Hearts 358/2.

 

[Jokeropia]

Hell no, I'm saying that we have no expectations number from them like we actually do for the other you mentioned.

That's what I said (well, almost) originally. We don't have expectations for either Arc Rise Fantasia (I said Muramasa last time but I meant ARF) or Valhalla, but at least the former sold better in relation to it's shipment.

I wouldn't use it as an absolute bar to label the game as success or failure. It would only tell me if they had seen the demand coming, a game can do plenty good missing its publishers expectations, and it can also do plenty bad even surpassing them, its just a matter of how they see it coming.

What other bar can you use to determine success or failure then? I suppose overall profit/loss from the project, but those numbers are very rarely revealed.

 

[Vinnk]

Wow, just saw the WSR number. Surprisingly low.. I guess they had to pay for the original there so that didn't help, but still -- that's pretty shocking. The actual number shipped is rather low too (comparitively speaking).

What number were you expecting?

Or at least what number would be less shocking for the launch day of a probable evergreen title?

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

That's what I said (well, almost) originally. We don't have expectations for either Arc Rise Fantasia (I said Muramasa last time but I meant ARF) or Valhalla, but at least the former sold better in relation to it's shipment.

But you keep ignoring me saying that they are not comparable, one is a full blown, new release and the other is a budget re-release which usually have totally different sales patterns, nearly no development cost and its sales are just extra on top of the original full-blown, new release. Valhalla Knights 1 had a the best re-release that didn't even chart anywhere, but that's meaningless, the original sold good and they made a sequel that sold better, no one is going to compare the re-release with the main games. A re-release can't be compared with new titles, they are totally different species. I would compare VH2 Battle Stance with the likes of it, which are barebones re-releases, director's cut editions, international versions and post-season editions to say a few examples.

What other bar can you use to determine success or failure then? I suppose overall profit/loss from the project, but those numbers are very rarely revealed.

I don't think I could call it a bar but certainly when a title is released I look at previous titles if its a franchise, the developer, the budget (as in the push its given in game content, development, advertising... since we don't have raw numbers), the genre, the platform, the patterns (genre decline, franchise decline, long legged titles...) for comparable titles. Since they are so many I can't see it just black or white and consequently I'd rather not use success/failure but just stick it up with the likes of it.

 

[Meier]

Ehh? Even if it sold nothing after day 1, there would only be a handful of better first weeks this year. Since that's not the case, there are only three games that give it much first week competition, and they're all much more frontloaded: Yakuza 3, RE5 PS3, and Kingdom Hearts 358/2.

This isn't a game you compare to titles on other systems. Wii Sports is certainly the flagship of the system. I understand that software sales are down a bit in general in Japan, but only doing 250k or thereabouts in its first week feels very low to me.

 

[schuelma]

This isn't a game you compare to titles on other systems. Wii Sports is certainly the flagship of the system. I understand that software sales are down a bit in general in Japan, but only doing 250k or thereabouts in its first week feels very low to me.

Again:

It really isn't low at all.

In fact, if it doubles its first day, which it should do easily, it will be the highest "Wii" title debut and the third highest Wii debut period.

 

[Spiegel]

Again:

It really isn't low at all.

In fact, if it doubles its first day, which it should do easily, it will be the highest "Wii" title debut and the third highest Wii debut period.

Wii Fit was supply constrained during its first months, wasn't it?

 

[schuelma]

Wii Fit was supply constrained during its first months, wasn't it?

Yeah, so it probably would have done more than 254K first week...but how much more? I don't know..but if WSR hits 320-330K I can't see that as a disappointment.

 

[Spiegel]

Yeah, so it probably would have done more than 254K first week...but how much more? I don't know..but if WSR hits 320-330K I can't see that as a disappointment.

Absolutely not a disappointment, the game will sell for many months.

I suppose he was expecting an huge opening based on the LTD sales of the first one. He's not taking into consideration its "evergreen" status because normally sequels for 3 million sellers always have huge openings

 

[Askia47]

Any Blaze Blue numbers?

Edit: just saw them, not too bad.

 

[Meier]

Again:

It really isn't low at all.

In fact, if it doubles its first day, which it should do easily, it will be the highest "Wii" title debut and the third highest Wii debut period.

So because the other titles haven't sold well out the gate, it makes it okay? I'd disagree with this assessment. WSR will obviously sell well over time and be an 'evergreen' title, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come in with high expectations up front.

If WSR doesn't do a million copies it's first month in the US, it would be seen as a disappointment in my eyes. Everyone knows it will still sell month over month, but there are expectations for a big first month/week/etc. too.

 

[grandjedi6]

Have you always used that avatar?

He's banned now but that really was Square2005 again, wasn't it? :lol

 

[markatisu]

This isn't a game you compare to titles on other systems. Wii Sports is certainly the flagship of the system. I understand that software sales are down a bit in general in Japan, but only doing 250k or thereabouts in its first week feels very low to me.

Doing 250k+ the first week in Japan under this economy is on the high end of wonderful :lol

Not to mention you are utterly failing to take into context the launches of Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit and hell even Wii Music. Of all those Wii Music is the only that really did not take off.

Unless WSR plummets next week or the week after it will almost certainly emulate the rest in the series. Nintendo did only shipped 325-375k copies of the game, and most likely all of that will be gone if not in the 1st week by the 2nd.

 

[schuelma]

So because the other titles haven't sold well out the gate, it makes it okay? I'd disagree with this assessment. WSR will obviously sell well over time and be an 'evergreen' title, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come in with high expectations up front.

.

With all due respect I think you're lacking some perspective here. The very nature of the title and the audience it is after means its not going to do completely insane numbers right out of the gate.

I just told you that it is going to outsell every other "Wii" title first week right out the gate and be the 3rd best selling Wii title 1st week, period. I don't see what you reasonably could have expected. This isn't Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest or Mario here- this is a mainstream, casual game that isn't going to get a huge rush of people out day 1.

 

[donny2112]

He's banned now but that really was Square2005 again, wasn't it?

Probably. He's the only other person I've seen use that avatar. That's why I asked if that user had always used it, since they've been here for 18 months, and I don't think I noticed anyone else with that avatar since Square2005.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Yoshi's Island.

I would be the first guest in this case.

 

[Meier]

With all due respect I think you're lacking some perspective here. The very nature of the title and the audience it is after means its not going to do completely insane numbers right out of the gate.

I just told you that it is going to outsell every other "Wii" title first week right out the gate and be the 3rd best selling Wii title 1st week, period.

These statistics are fairly loaded -- it's a lot easier to sell more software when there is a larger user base to purchase it. Secondly, there have only been 5 Wii ... titles so it isn't very difficult to be the best selling one in the first week when two of them came out on launch day and were constrained against the system's availability and another had shortages in stock in general. The 4th was considered a disappointment in terms of quality and sales despite the fac it did fine over time. This is not a figure to trumpet necessarily.

I am not lacking any perspective. I have followed the Japanese sales market for quite awhile now and know all about Nintendo's sales over time there. That does not change the fact that in my opinion, this figure is a disappointing number. Feel free to disagree but you're not going to do anything to change my opinion.

 

[schuelma]

These statistics are fairly loaded -- it's a lot easier to sell more software when there is a larger user base to purchase it. Secondly, there have only been 5 Wii ... titles so it isn't very difficult to be the best selling one in the first week when two of them came out on launch day and were constrained against the system's availability and another had shortages in stock in general. The 4th was considered a disappointment in terms of quality and sales despite the fac it did fine over time. This is not a figure to trumpet necessarily.

I am not lacking any perspective. I have followed the Japanese sales market for quite awhile now and know all about Nintendo's sales over time there. That does not change the fact that in my opinion, this figure is a disappointing number. Feel free to disagree but you're not going to do anything to change my opinion.

Ok, but then what else should we compare it to? Should we compare it to a Mario game? Should we compare it to Final Fantasy?

What about comparing it to similar DS games? Is that better? If you go that route, it beats every other semi-casual DS million+ seller except Brain Training 2.

I'm more than willing to hear your argument, but so far I'm not seeing anything aside from "It's disappointing".

 

[markatisu]

Ok, but then what else should we compare it to? Should we compare it to a Mario game? Should we compare it to Final Fantasy?

What about comparing it to similar DS games? Is that better? If you go that route, it beats every other semi-casual DS million+ seller except Brain Training 2.

I'm more than willing to hear your argument, but so far I'm not seeing anything aside from "It's disappointing".

Even if you are comparing it to Super Mario Galaxy wouldn't it still be doing well since it will reach 1m much faster and SMG has not even?

I would be interested to hear what he thinks success is as well, he has disqualified any reasonable interpretation of the sales. Especially since WSR proves (should it come in at the higher end of 300k) that Wii Music was a blip in the Wii ___ series and not a downtrend in popularity.

 

[icecream]

Your sarcasm is appreciated, but I would have thought that you knew the difference between Gust and Compile Heart.

And honestly what is that difference? Gust, N1, Compile Heart, Idea Factory (specifically their recent stuff)... they're all niche developments who try to sell using those cute, moe characters to substitute for real graphics and current generation-level gameplay. There's nothing that Gust does that puts them heads-over-shoulders above the others.

 

[slaughterking]

Even if you are comparing it to Super Mario Galaxy wouldn't it still be doing well since it will reach 1m much faster and SMG has not even?

WSR is already doing better than Mario Galaxy did (which was 130k units first day).

 

[Eteric Rice]

And honestly what is that difference? Gust, N1, Compile Heart, Idea Factory (specifically their recent stuff)... they're all niche developments who try to sell using those cute, moe characters to substitute for real graphics and current generation-level gameplay. There's nothing that Gust does that puts them heads-over-shoulders above the others.

:lol

 

[Liabe Brave]

Feel free to disagree but you're not going to do anything to change my opinion.

People aren't telling you to change your opinion, they're telling you your opinion is wrong. When your opinion is about factual data it isn't immune to criticism.

 

[androvsky]

And honestly what is that difference? Gust, N1, Compile Heart, Idea Factory (specifically their recent stuff)... they're all niche developments who try to sell using those cute, moe characters to substitute for real graphics and current generation-level gameplay. There's nothing that Gust does that puts them heads-over-shoulders above the others.

Current generation-level gameplay? What is that, in terms of JRPGs?

 

[icecream]

:lol

The ironic thing is I include your Wii in that grouping. Do you honestly consider Phantom Brave a game that pushes the Wii? Radiant Dawn feels miles ahead of it.

 

[donny2112]

I am not lacking any perspective. I have followed the Japanese sales market for quite awhile now and know all about Nintendo's sales over time there. That does not change the fact that in my opinion, this figure is a disappointing number. Feel free to disagree but you're not going to do anything to change my opinion.

First Week Top-selling Nintendo-published console games in Japan since N64 (LTD):

1. WII Super Smash Bros. Brawl - 816K (1.8m)
2. WII Mario Kart Wii - 608K (2.3m)
3. N64 The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask - 418K (602K)
4. N64 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - 386K (1.1m)
5. GCN Super Smash Bros. Melee - 357K (1.3m)
6. WII Animal Crossing: City Folk - 303K (1.1m)

If it doubles first day and doesn't have legs like the second Zelda game on the N64, it'll sell over 1 million. The far more likely situation is that it'll double first day and outsell all of those games and become the best-selling of the 300K+ Nintendo console 1st-party launch titles.

Does that change your perspective any?

 

[boiled goose]

First Week Top-selling Nintendo-published console games in Japan since N64 (LTD):

1. WII Super Smash Bros. Brawl - 816K (1.8m)
2. WII Mario Kart Wii - 608K (2.3m)
3. N64 The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask - 418K (602K)
4. N64 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - 386K (1.1m)
5. GCN Super Smash Bros. Melee - 357K (1.3m)
6. WII Animal Crossing: City Folk - 303K (1.1m)

If it doubles first day and doesn't have legs like the second Zelda game on the N64, it'll sell over 1 million. The far more likely situation is that it'll double first day and outsell all of those games and become the best-selling of the 300K+ Nintendo console 1st-party launch titles.

Does that change your perspective any?

id like to see a response.... :S

 

[Sage00]

To be fair, you're comparing N64 and GCN titles to a Wii title. NES/SNES are much more comparable situations. It's a shame we don't have those numbers.

 

[boiled goose]

To be fair, you're comparing N64 and GCN titles to a Wii title. NES/SNES are much more comparable situations. It's a shame we don't have those numbers.

Spoiler

what about the wii titles in the list????

 

[markatisu]

To be fair, you're comparing N64 and GCN titles to a Wii title. NES/SNES are much more comparable situations. It's a shame we don't have those numbers.

The point is driven home even more if you are just comparing it to Wii titles

 

[Hero of Legend]

In the Wii Top 50:

#10 SD Gundam G Gemeration Wars
#14 Arc Rise Fantasia
#15 Monster Hunter G
#21 Muramasa: The Demon Blade
#22 Dragon Ball: Revenge of King Piccolo
#27 JU-ON: The Grudge
#32 Arc Rise Fantasia (Different Edition)
#33 Devil Kings 2 Heroes Best Price
#35 Little King's Story
#47 Monster Hunter G (Different Edition)

Not too bad, nice to see key MMV games in the Wii Top 50 at least. Maybe Muramasa will have legs? Dragon Ball's nice to see as well!

Edit: Rest of the Wii Top 100:

#52 Tales of Symphonia 2
#56 Fatal Frame 4
#58 Boom Blox
#62 Harvest Moon: Animal Parade
#63 Dragon Quest Swords
#71 428
#78 Shiren 3
#81 Sky Crawlers
#85 Tatsunoko vs. Capcom
#88 Let's Tap
#89 Reel Fishing: Angler's Dream
#91 Zack and Wiki
#93 Fragile
#94 Bomberman Blast
#96 Sonic and the Black Knight
#98 Takt of Magic
#100 Phantom Brave

Almost though Fragile wouldn't make it! Shiren 3's a big welcome! Reel Fishing's a tad surprising. Tatsunoko's also good to see hanging in there! Same with Let's Tap!

Edit: AND Zack and Wiki!

Hope these are at least hints towards these having some legs. Slowly but surely they'll do well.

Wow, I'm checking back at the list, and I found these:

Reel Fishing: Angler's Dream went from #89, to #53!

I didn't recall seeing Rune Factory Frontier in the Wii Top 100 at the time, but now it's at #68!

Arc Rise and Muramasa are at #26 and #27 respectively.

Little King's Story is higher at #31.

Harvest Moon: Animal Parade got quite a boost and is now at #47.

Minor, but Fragile went up to #87.

Big shocker, No More Heroes is at #89, it wan't in the list before! And this game was a gigantic bomb wasn't it?

Captain Rainbow is at #96.

Opoona at #76.

Nice to see most of MMV's Wii games somehow got a boost.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

And honestly what is that difference? Gust, N1, Compile Heart, Idea Factory (specifically their recent stuff)... they're all niche developments who try to sell using those cute, moe characters to substitute for real graphics and current generation-level gameplay. There's nothing that Gust does that puts them heads-over-shoulders above the others.

UGH, no wonder Japan is losing touch with the rest of the gaming world.

 

[Vinnk]

Wow, I'm checking back at the list, and I found these:

Reel Fishing: Angler's Dream went from #89, to #53!

I didn't recall seeing Rune Factory Frontier in the Wii Top 100 at the time, but now it's at #68!

Arc Rise and Muramasa are at #26 and #27 respectively.

Little King's Story is higher at #31.

Harvest Moon: Animal Parade got quite a boost and is now at #47.

Minor, but Fragile went up to #87.

Big shocker, No More Heroes is at #89, it wan't in the list before! And this game was a gigantic bomb wasn't it?

Captain Rainbow is at #96.

Opoona at #76.

Nice to see most of MMV's Wii games somehow got a boost.

Sadly these example just kind of prove that the list is not very useful.

I bought a brand new copy of Oppona last week for 350yen. It being #76 in no way makes it less of a total failure. Captain Rainbow, even more so (Oppona outsold that).

But no knock against you, and thank you for posting the list. I just think that we can't read too much into it.

 

[Pureauthor]

What on earth is 'current generation - level gameplay', anyway?

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

What on earth is 'current generation - level gameplay', anyway?

- No HUD
- 3rd person
- Cover system

 

[Hero of Legend]

Sadly these example just kind of prove that the list is not very useful.

I bought a brand new copy of Oppona last week for 350yen. It being #76 in no way makes it less of a total failure. Captain Rainbow, even more so (Oppona outsold that).

But no knock against you, and thank you for posting the list. I just think that we can't read too much into it.

Yeah... Arc Rise isn't even in the Top 100 Overall anymore. :'(

 

[AdventureRacing]

Everyone knows it will still sell month over month, but there are expectations for a big first month/week/etc. too.

Why? This game is not going to bomba in price so what is the difference between upfront sales and sales in a couple months time?

If this goes on to sell 1.5-2 million copies or more why does it matter what it sold upfront?

It's also interesting that you mention first month as well because i expect this title to hold up very strongly and it's first month sales will most likely be more impressive than it's first week in comparison to other titles.

 

[bttb]

.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Strong launch sales; now let's see what happens next week, and to hardware for this week.

 

[AniHawk]

Wii Sports Resort bombed. Holy shit.

 

[sprsk]

Wii Sports Resort bombed. Holy shit.

That's a bomb?

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

schuelma you owe me a cookie

 

[Magicpaint]

Great start for WSR. It's all about the legs...

 

[AniHawk]

That's a bomb?

Well it's no Smash Bros, that's for sure.