Aren't refugees being sent to classes? I'm learning German at Frankfurt Volkshochschule and every class is at least 50% refugees. Everyday there are at least 50 people taking the placement exam.
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Merkel: No Plans To Limit Refugee Influx So Far
- Thread starter Antiochus
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Maedre
Banned
There are so many refugees without any usable education. They can only do the lowest and worst paid jobs and even these jobs require a certain typical german mindset. Punctuality, correctnes, efficiency etc. Sadly thats not a given.
I guarantee you that these choices now will lead to a significantly stronger economy in 10 years. It may be enough to move Germany back into 4th above Japan.
Most modern nations are about to experience the population age tidal wave. Japan is the first country to hit it, and will come out of it first. Immigration allows you to manage the tidal wave and reduce it's strength. More people working to cover your ageing population. Plus diversity has been proven to be an economic boom, especially around innovation.
Most modern nations are about to experience the population age tidal wave. Japan is the first country to hit it, and will come out of it first. Immigration allows you to manage the tidal wave and reduce it's strength. More people working to cover your ageing population. Plus diversity has been proven to be an economic boom, especially around innovation.
Look at you, you only needed six words to be condescending in a nationalistic, a racist and a misogynistic way. Good on you.
CadetMahoney
Member
Curious, are they required to take German lessons? Like just for being an asylum seeker / refugee?
I know you might have to if you apply for Citizenship but that's to help you pass the Citizenship tests.
Wow. sexist and racist in 6 words!
ClosingADoor
Member
I can kind of guarantee it won't. It is creating a new underclass of low skilled workers that won't be able to find jobs and either need to rely in a disproportional amount on welfare from the state or go into crime.
It would be different if that immigration was checked and people are let in who can get right to work or have skills needed to survive in the workplace right now. These people do not.
I also see you posting a graph from Canada, since you are from there if I remember right. The Canadian situation is nothing like the European one. Way stricter immigration and now only taking in people from the Syrian warzone. Europe has to deal with everyone and if they are not actual refugees has a hard time sending them back. Canada is taking in 50.000 people next year on a population of 35 million (0.14%). My country (Netherlands) is now looking at 93.000 this year on a population of little under 17 million (0.55%). Germany at a million again with a population of 80 million (1.25%). The numbers are much higher with Germany taking in almost 9 times as many people.
You can try this site as well:
https://fluechtlinge.hessen.de/flucht-asyl/hessen-handelt/aktionsplan-zur-integration-von-fluechtlingen-und-bewahrung-des
The link to the "Aktionsplan Flüchtlinge" is on the right.
You mean like the iranian refugees that got here in the seventies after the Iranian Revolution?
Of which today over 50% have an bachelor's degree or a higher form of education (the total average of the entire german population is 20%)?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraner_in_Deutschland#Migrationssituation
I guarantee you that these choices now will lead to a significantly stronger economy in 10 years. It may be enough to move Germany back into 4th above Japan.
Most modern nations are about to experience the population age tidal wave. Japan is the first country to hit it, and will come out of it first. Immigration allows you to manage the tidal wave and reduce it's strength. More people working to cover your ageing population. Plus diversity has been proven to be an economic boom, especially around innovation.
I doubt it, sadly. Here's what a finnish minister had to say recently:
Source: http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/t...-luku-ja-kirjoitustaidottomia-ihmisia-6307950 (Translation mine)
A lot of these people aren't going to work for 5-10 years.
Maedre
Banned
yeah, but "90%" of the refugees comming to germany are not skilled. This is a totally different situation.
Do we even have numbers that reliably separate Syrian refugees from economic migrants? Because the latter are not meant to be granted the right to stay, while many of the former would probably want to move back once/if (and that's a big if) the situation calms down. Not all people moving to German will stay here for good.
JimmyRustler
Member
I always find it funny how people seem to think that countries have to increase their population because it otherwise it would end in havoc.... I think that the first world countries will be very much able to deal with an aging demographic.I guarantee you that these choices now will lead to a significantly stronger economy in 10 years. It may be enough to move Germany back into 4th above Japan.
Most modern nations are about to experience the population age tidal wave. Japan is the first country to hit it, and will come out of it first. Immigration allows you to manage the tidal wave and reduce it's strength. More people working to cover your ageing population. Plus diversity has been proven to be an economic boom, especially around innovation.
ClosingADoor
Member
I certainly hope they can manage well. But research here has shown that is not the case for everyone.
People from non-Western countries have 3 times the unemployment rate here for example. Some groups in there even higher. That is not a good thing.
I think the numbers are too large to manage it effectively like this and will create trouble because of that. Add to that a group of people that will not integrate at all and increase already high tensions with the local population.
I don't like it, but all the talk last year about highly educated people coming in who will integrate flawlessly were not realistic expectations.
90 %? Gonna need a source on that.
Here are some numbers from the census in 2010.
Blue is people from the "Naher Osten" (the study mentions Iran, Lebanon, Iraq and Syria)
Olive green is people from Iran
Orange is people from the far east
Pink is Germans.
From left to right:
Hochschulreife: Abitur or similar (high school diploma)
Academics
the other two are irrelevant.
Link to the study
How? No way a single worker can pay for the pension of two elderly. It has to be the other way around.
Maedre
Banned
90 %? Gonna need a source on that.
Here are some numbers from the census in 2010.
Blue is people from the "Naher Osten" (the study mentions Iran, Lebanon, Iraq and Syria)
Olive green is people from Iran
Orange is people from the far east
Pink is Germans.
From left to right:
Hochschulreife: Abitur or similar (high school diploma)
Academics
the other two are irrelevant.
Link to the study
We will see.
YourMaster
Member
Are you kidding me? This is the real reason why it is so problematic. Germany already faces a real issue with its abysmal birth rate, and they should really try to get the birthrate up, which is hard.
When their workforce declines - which happens when you don't replace them with enough young people - you suffer economically.
Right now, Germany is rich enough to absorb high numbers of people, with just some inconvenience. The real problems start in 20 years, when the migrants of today also have children and they cost not just room and board but also education and the increased social unrest and crime rates will start to put more strain on the population. By that time they no longer have the workforce to support these massive costs.
History has shown that European countries are completely unable to transform Muslim minorities into productive citizens and this new wave seems no different at all. There are programs to teach the new people the language, but have no plans on how to transform their culture and mindset to a western one.
At the same time, there is no indication that increased numbers of migrants will give the natives a more positive outlook in live that will help with more German people being born.
But by your logic wouldn't children of migrants be able to take the places in our education program, that are taken by kids of Germans right now?
Also you don't seem to offer any explanation for increased social unrest and crime rates.
paradise_circus
Member
First things first, the title of the thread is plainly wrong.
That is either a huge exaggeration or simply a lie.
JimmyRustler
Member
I don't know how but I am certain we'll figure it out. What makes you think that we won't?
d00d3n
Member
That depends, really. If it turns out that the economic liability of the recent immigration wave can be contained, it is possible that Merkel will fare well. I don't know if this is likely, though. Traditional media channels have lost their agenda setting power. It is one thing to give the appearance of successful immigration policy, but do the hard facts back up this message?
YourMaster
Member
Yes, the new kids can and will go to school. They won't take the same positions in the job market though.
There's no evidence for how the future turns out. It rest on the assumption that when they continue doing the same thing as they did in the seventies, the results will be the same as last time. As a result of those policies there are very high crime rates among second and third generation Muslim immigrants. And social unrest as well, a clear example are the riots that occasionally break out in the French suburbs.
Well, let me rephrase, I've been looking and have heard of no plans or possible solutions in getting the middle east out of the people coming from the middle east.
The simple fact, that our pension system was built for another demographic situation. How can a single worker pay for two pensions?
Frankfurter
Member
Frankfurter
Member
I don't think it's that much about having to increase the population, but about the ageing population. With more and more people being 65+, social security will be harder and harder to maintain. I'm pretty curious about Japans development in the next 20, 30, 40 years actually. It should soon see drastic population declines, even if (and that's a big) birth rates pick up.
Why?
So we need to do a better job than in the seventies, and a better job than France did. Still no sources for your claims.
Oh wow.
JimmyRustler
Member
He can't. That's why the current system can't and probably won't survive. We knew this like forever. But to think that it's absolutely impossible to establish a new kind of system that solves this problem is beyond me. You think that humanity is just THAT stupid or what?
So we have known it for like forever and we have still not solved it? I think migration can be a solution for the issue.
JimmyRustler
Member
Like it's the first time humanity waits to solves problems until shit hits the fan, right?
It is indeed. Question is only if it's the right solution. And I think it's not. Human population of the planet has been bloating beyond extreme in the past 100 years. I think this world we're on could do just fine with less human beings on it. So yes, please let the aging demographic have it's way.
ClosingADoor
Member
Problem is, our politicians have not come with a plan to do a better job. So for now, we are looking at just taking in lots of people and hoping for the best without a plan to integrate them, get them schooled or to work. And judging from the past years and decades, we have not done a terribly good job at it. Crime is almost 4 times higher among immigrants from this region and usage of social welfare is also a lot higher.
That depends on the cost associated with that migration. If those costs cancel out the increased tax income, then it isn't a solution. We will need to go towards a system where people save up for their own old age instead of having the next generations pay for it. And we need to work longer, which is already happening slowly. But that will mean that the generation during that transition will carry a larger burden.
YourMaster
Member
Again, nobody has a source for how the future turns out. All we can do is estimate best on past results, and the track record in Europe on making Muslim migrants productive is horrendous.
For the last decades, immigration from the middle east has caused poverty, disenfranchised young people, crime, anti-semitism, increased cost of education and even though Muslim women have seen some success in completing higher education, very little employment.
Likewise, what are your sources on stating that future generations of the current migrants will work in the job sectors where shortages will occur? What evidence do you have that the politicians of today are doing a better job than those of 30/40 years ago?
My prediction is history will look back on this time and will condemn us all for allowing it, not just Merkel for causing it.
Same goes for integration problems.
Frankfurter
Member
I fail to see how this can be considered a good idea with young unemployement being as high as it is (40% in southern europe, around 20% average), unless there is a significant plan to redistribute wealth, which, let's be frank, will probably never happen, and even if it happened, it would be limited to citizens because of obvious reasons. The new generations will be significantly poorer, and those who lack non-social safety nets (aka immigrants and the poorest in general), will become a class of have nots. We're going the way of the states, with steep inequality and non-existent social mobility. Which in turn will create violent and systematic racism, like in the US.
The alternative of promoting functional societies in other places of the world through help sounds much more appealing , as you can hit many more people with beneficial effects, and don't have to drastically either undercut welfare in first world nations, or simply accept huge unemployement figures and all the shit that come from it. Sadly, it seems that the we are only fixated on bombing everyone from the middle east. The states need to export more democracy, clearly.
The alternative of promoting functional societies in other places of the world through help sounds much more appealing , as you can hit many more people with beneficial effects, and don't have to drastically either undercut welfare in first world nations, or simply accept huge unemployement figures and all the shit that come from it. Sadly, it seems that the we are only fixated on bombing everyone from the middle east. The states need to export more democracy, clearly.
Germany is not in southern Europe. We have unemployment of 4,7 % and youth unemployment of 5,2 %. We need people to fill jobs.
leatherhat
Member
There is no issue with an aging population. Advancements in robotics and AI guarantee that most blue collar jobs will be phased out in first world countries. Trying to solve the "problem" of an aging population with mass low skill immigration is just going to create a large, unemployable lower class.
paradise_circus
Member
Immigrants of the 60s and 70s got a job and were productive. They were literally called to work. However, no integration programs were initialized or done. Germany started do something 20 years later in the 90s with another immigration movements.
Today, immigrants cause more profits than deficits despite the huge costs in social welfare.
ClosingADoor
Member
Sure: http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publ...3-9&D5=l&HD=130301-1626&HDR=G4,G1,G2,T&STB=G3
Suspects arrested for crimes per 10.000 people.
Native population: 69
Western immigrants: 95
Non-western immigrants: 270 (non-Western in this case means from Africa, Latin America, Asia - excluding Indonesia and Japan - and Turkey).
Moroccan immigrants: 386
Dutch Antilles: 467 (Dutch specific issue due to colonial history)
Suriname: 294 (same as above)
Turkish immigrants: 219
Other non-Western immigrants: 188
Maedre
Banned
oh common do you really want to bring the "fachkräftemangel" argument? There is no shortage. There is just a shortage of people who wont work for under 15/h as an engineer.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
TBF this is part of the Geneava convention that we all happilly signed, and the Syrian refugee's are not migrants looking for better jobs, these are people forced out their home country with no where else to go. It's not like they would have come enmass for other reasons than what are happening right now
Europe and western countries have for centuries benfitted for their exploitation of weaker countries in economic and military, but when things go south and issues thrust upon them, people throw their hands and say we can't help. Many European countries are struggling but many can and are able to help. In the grand scheme of history this is very little. This is a globalised world and sometimes these shifts happen.
Wrestlemania
Banned
What is the correct number?
DragonSworne
Banned
She's doing the right thing in a completely irresponsible and lazy manner.
MonorailCat
Member
Sure. I have a Masters Degree and still don't have a job after 60+ Applications.
Can't even get an internship, because nobody wants to pay the mandatory minimum wage, so they only take students instead.
Maedre
Banned
this.
What did you study? And what is your work experience so far?
Maedre
Banned
you know, its hard to get work expicience if you don't get a job. I have a Bachelor (W.Ing. Energy Industry) and only have a underpaid Job because of Vitamin b. I had very good grades and many internships) and you only get very bad offers. Only 25k/year is you what you get. Bravo.
Usually students work jobs related to their field (He actually said, employers prefered students...). Be it internships or as a working student.
thehypocrite
Member
Cue the racists that know nothing on sustainability.
Maedre
Banned
It's because they are cheap.
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