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Merkel: No Plans To Limit Refugee Influx So Far

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I like how one of the main people criticizing Merkel in this thread was willing to defend Trump winking at white supremacists.

Makes you think that he may he certain opinions about certain people, idk.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Merkel is being irresponsible

she is angering countries in the East who are not equipped to deal with such an influx of travelers passing through

Greece is so fucked.

I don't get what's her end game

Canada does it right. / Germany does it wrong

You can't really compare the two.
I like how one of the main people criticizing Merkel in this thread was willing to defend Trump winking at white supremacists.

Makes you think that he may he certain opinions about certain people, idk.

Welcome to EU migrant threads.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
I think the UK might have something to say about that. Immigration is one of the issues why they want to leave the EU and have a referendum for that.

And you can't just travel to the UK freely if you are not a citizen of another EU country already. So they would need to become German citizens first and then move.

Also, with a 16 hour work week, I doubt the UK will see much benefit and it will be a drain on their resources. I can't really see how you survive on 115 pounds a week without some government assistance.

£115 a week, it is an enough for few places in the UK. Not in south, or London. They will get a housing with tax reduction.

But it seems that many of them want to live in London.


The big problem is the granted asylum is not allowed on most of the benefits or even a legal job. You might be right that it isn't worth to live there on 16 hours. So who want to go the UK likely not really look for work, or look for some black market jobs for extra money while granted asylum.
 

Faerith

Neo Member
you know, its hard to get work expicience if you don't get a job. I have a Bachelor (W.Ing. Energy Industry) and only have a underpaid Job because of Vitamin b. I had very good grades and many internships) and you only get very bad offers. Only 25k/year is you what you get. Bravo.
Sure. I have a Masters Degree and still don't have a job after 60+ Applications.
Can't even get an internship, because nobody wants to pay the mandatory minimum wage, so they only take students instead.
"Nice" to see others have this problem too- while the elder generation is always baffled why well-educated people don't have an appropiate job and put the blame on not jobhunting enough.
Diplom Informatiker ('Master' in Computer Science), no previous work experience since I (regretably) didn't need to
(therefore seen as unlearned worker by the "dear" Jobcenter (f* them to hell)), also no job.
I'd love to take a student job even under minimum-wage - at least it would give some experience (and further the eroding of wages, yes I know). ;_;

Funny how it's always reiterated that the mythical creature education shall give you a job(, because omg Fachkräftemangel). -_-

Is it a european policy if only greece or italy are getting all the refugees while others just do "business as normal". Also do you really think that the free market within europe can sustain itself if countries like hungary, poland and austria are beginning to block everything getting in and outside of their country?
Actually yes it is, Dublin Regulation. Crazy, I know.
The free market shall find a way, the lobby is strong in that one. :p

I live near Frankfurt, which has a foreigner percentage of about 28%. Lots of turks, moroccans, iranians...I'm 38 years old and have experienced this first hand all my life.
And we're doing pretty good over here. The refugee crisis is considered a big task, but we've managed quite well so far..
Actually nearly 50% if you add migrational backgrounds.
Since I live in a relatively poor part of the city I can only say there's quite a bit of anti-refugee sentiment here, be it migrant or german;
kinda fascinating when they have a migrantion background themselves,
but looking at the living situation understandable - those new people are a competition on low-wage jobs,
and if they truly will be allowed to work for below minimum wage... . It's rather troublesome, especially since with automation such (and other) jobs are going to be less and less of in the future.
It's also scareyly fascinating how people with very politicaly left opinions turned right in the last year.

In Saxony, a whooping 2,8% of the populace is of foreign origin. I'd consider this quite a gated community for xenophobes. But ironically, the people who probably never met a foreigner in their neighborhood are the ones most afraid of them.
Fremdenzimmer vs Gästezimmer. ;P
If you don't know The Other, are rarely exposed to it, you see them differently, are averse to them- deep inside we are still just stone-age tribala humans.
It's absolutly not nice, of course, but it is easy to look down on it, when you yourself have grown up in a different situation,
knowing The Other is just Another Human (with all the potential good and especially the bad that comes with being a human).
But what can one do when there's so much violence- any attempt to deescalate/educate is probably seen as attack/lie,
as they are probably very much in an 'us against them'-mode
(&since they are not dogs you cannot pull them out into a low-stimulus enviroment where they relearn social behaviour, but which would also be rather dystopian if done to humans... ),
and since they are violent against foreigners there cannot be a normal learning/acclimation process.
 

SchLosSraTTe

Neo Member
Is there a chance that Merkel gets confronted with a vote of no confidence, if she doesn't change her plans? Parts of the CDU seem to be very angry.
 
How many people need to pour across the borders of countries all across Europe before anyone realizes something has to be done to stop the source of this problem rather than sit around and argue who should take in who all day.
 
How many people need to pour across the borders of countries all across Europe before anyone realizes something has to be done to stop the source of this problem rather than sit around and argue who should take in who all day.
What can we do? Russia is involved now, so attacking Assad is not an option. Turning around and supporting Assad is also not possible anymore after what he has done. And then there is still all the rebel groups and ISIS walking around.

There is actually a cease fire right now, but it probably won't hold. It does provide a way now to get help to people there. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/syria-war-ceasefire-160228063752872.html
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
How many people need to pour across the borders of countries all across Europe before anyone realizes something has to be done to stop the source of this problem rather than sit around and argue who should take in who all day.

Nothing I could see it will be realised because when if it is full then people will move on to the different country. A lot of them can survive on the street, begging and free aids for a while.
 
What can we do? Russia is involved now, so attacking Assad is not an option. Turning around and supporting Assad is also not possible anymore after what he has done. And then there is still all the rebel groups and ISIS walking around.

There is actually a cease fire right now, but it probably won't hold. It does provide a way now to get help to people there. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/syria-war-ceasefire-160228063752872.html
An international coalition with the US and Europe to push for a no fly zone over the areas Assad has conceded. There needs to be a safe zone established so innocent people aren't constantly being bombed. Russia has only made the problem worse. We seriously need to push for this and establish a no fly zone that they agree to respect.

The Obama administration has no interest in it so if we aren't it isn't going to happen but it's something Clinton is pushing for. It's one reason I want Obama's term to be over. He has handled Syria about as poorly as he could have and there needs to be a change in strategy. The only reason Russia got involved is because we did nothing. We need to sit back down with them and try to make this happen
 
I like how one of the main people criticizing Merkel in this thread was willing to defend Trump winking at white supremacists.

Makes you think that he may he certain opinions about certain people, idk.

If you have something to say about me use my name and be direct with your accusations.
 
Is there a chance that Merkel gets confronted with a vote of no confidence, if she doesn't change her plans? Parts of the CDU seem to be very angry.

As far as I understand this would not get the result you expect because the people that disagree with her are not voting on that issue.
 
Actually yes it is, Dublin Regulation. Crazy, I know.
The free market shall find a way, the lobby is strong in that one. :p
Dublin is one sided and benefits only central european states like france and germany while boarder states like greece or italy are fucked. It already doesnt work and saying that we can have open boarders within europe with dublin again is kore idealistic than what merkel is trying to do. If you think lopsided unequal treaties will create good long term relationships you are dead wrong.

To be honest if merkel was like orban than she could have closed boarders and sent refugees back to greece but that would have meant the end of the EU.
 
Is there a chance that Merkel gets confronted with a vote of no confidence, if she doesn't change her plans? Parts of the CDU seem to be very angry.
Her coalition partner SPD will support merkel (they gain nothing from new elections). CSU wll dissent but they dont matter. So the question is how many CDU people will vote against her giventhat they will probably not get re-elected again (CDU will loose the most in a hypothetical election this year) and have no real alternative to merkel.
 
Yes, they are a part of the Schengen zone for longer already and had open borders with other countries. But you know that with open borders I meant open for large numbers of refugees like we see now.

The other points also still stand why it is irresponsible to have a large number of people traveling without caring for their safety along the way and no long term plan to handle them staying in Germany.
1. I am all for a solution where people can for example use aeroplanes to flee to europe. EU has blocked this path by a regulation that makes airlines liable for people without papers. not merkels fault. Also people know its dangerous to go but its more dangerous to stay in syria.
2. Schengen boarders were open and the geneva treaty and the german constitution were in force all along. Its just that now many people are using this wayto go to safety.
 

spekkeh

Banned
You mean like the iranian refugees that got here in the seventies after the Iranian Revolution?

Of which today over 50% have an bachelor's degree or a higher form of education (the total average of the entire german population is 20%)?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraner_in_Deutschland#Migrationssituation

That's very much cherry picking though. During the Iranian revolution there was a major brain drain of mostly atheist Iranians who feared for Islamic prosecution. And even then Iranians since then are still vastly overrepresented in being on welfare. (in the Netherlands at least, but I doubt Germany is that much different). In any case, socialist atheist Iranians are not Sunni Syrians, Somalians, Eritreans and Moroccans.
 
An international coalition with the US and Europe to push for a no fly zone over the areas Assad has conceded. There needs to be a safe zone established so innocent people aren't constantly being bombed. Russia has only made the problem worse. We seriously need to push for this and establish a no fly zone that they agree to respect.

The Obama administration has no interest in it so if we aren't it isn't going to happen but it's something Clinton is pushing for. It's one reason I want Obama's term to be over. He has handled Syria about as poorly as he could have and there needs to be a change in strategy. The only reason Russia got involved is because we did nothing. We need to sit back down with them and try to make this happen
Too late now, Russia won't agree to it and we can't shoot down Russian planes. Well, Turkey could once. But I don't think other nations want to try their luck a second time. Leads to major diplomatic fuckery.

1. I am all for a solution where people can for example use aeroplanes to flee to europe. EU has blocked this path by a regulation that makes airlines liable for people without papers. not merkels fault. Also people know its dangerous to go but its more dangerous to stay in syria.
2. Schengen boarders were open and the geneva treaty and the german constitution were in force all along. Its just that now many people are using this wayto go to safety.
Agree with you on point one. I think it would have been much better to arrange transport from camps in Turkey and Lebanon (either plane, or more likely boats and trains) to get people towards Europe in a safe way, make sure they are actually from Syria and have places ready for them.

The problem with the Geneva Treaty and such is that I don't think they were thinking about millions of people coming from nations across the world towards Europe in this way. Our social welfare system can't handle that if they stay too long. If too many people use that, something is going to change in the way it is handled because just a few receiving countries will not be able to handle everyone.
 
Geneva Treaty and such is that I don't think they were thinking about millions of people coming from nations across the world towards Europe in this way. Our social welfare system can't handle that if they stay too long. If too many people use that, something is going to change in the way it is handled because just a few receiving countries will not be able to handle everyone.
whats the consequence then. Letting people die like many countris including the US did with the jews that tried to flee from the nazis
 
Merkel: No Plans To Limit Refugee Influx So Far
merkels plan is pretty clear. She will cooperate with turkey and wants to establish a wall around europe. Refugees will be taken registered and distributed to all nations. Sounds much better than everybody basically shutting down boarders and letting greece and italy suffer.

So whats your great plan?
 

Nabbis

Member
whats the consequence then. Letting people die like many countris including the US did with the jews that tried to flee from the nazis

Im not sure if some of you guys realise this but there's a chance that this will escalate to the point of not letting anyone in and possibly bring about a foreign policy that will focus solely on containing that population in their own borders, whatever the means. There's no utopian outcome where this will come out in a neat manner.
 
Im not sure if some of you guys realise this but there's a chance that this will escalate to the point of not letting anyone in and possibly bring about a foreign policy that will focus solely on containing that population in their own borders, whatever the means. There's no utopian outcome where this will come out in a neat manner.
Agreed and merkels solution is the only alternative to a trump-esque mass deportation/ wall of mexico policy that many europeans are trying now. That solution will hold only as long as the first refugees will get killed by soldiers and policemen.
 

Great post. Happy to see that hate speeches from guys like Donald Trump didn't dull eveyone's mind yet.

I am German and I voted for Angela. Would do again because, despite some idiots' voices from Bavaria saying otherwise, Germany is still doing pretty well these days.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Now we just need to stamp out the rise of neo nazi and other fascist parties. That is the real threat.

Merkel is fueling those flames too. Instead of trying to convey a message of planning and consideration, her latest brain fart just digs those trench lines deeper.

I was really embarrassed in the 90s when I lived in Finland and we saw the rise of skinheads. It came about in a time of recession combined with an uncontained remote civil war, and the situation now is not that different, which is why much consideration should be put into planning and communication.

It should be absolutely obvious that a group of agitated unemployed young men invited into a society that has no plan of how to integrate them, and a group of agitated, unemployed, largely uneducated indigenous young men who are looking to fuck shit up, are a recipe for bad times.
 
Really sucks that the international community both inside and outside the EU has failed the Syrian people.
It is sad that countries like Sweden and Germany must bear all of the weight.

Also a bunch of people in the thread have talked about how people of muslim decent don't integrate well.
But posters use this line of reasoning never talk about the discrimination that Muslims often face even in "open countries".
 
whats the consequence then. Letting people die like many countris including the US did with the jews that tried to flee from the nazis
It's not that black and white. I am for taking in refugees in manageable numbers and funding camps in the region. Then take people from there like the UK and Canada is doing through UN programs. Just letting anybody walk in is not a good solution and should be the last resort option.

merkels plan is pretty clear. She will cooperate with turkey and wants to establish a wall around europe. Refugees will be taken registered and distributed to all nations. Sounds much better than everybody basically shutting down boarders and letting greece and italy suffer.

So whats your great plan?
Basically this is what I would do. But the problem comes again when the numbers are too large and nations are not willing to take them in, so I don't see it happening. But it is better then having one place manage the burden. It is also better for integration if people need to stay for long, since they will be more spread out.
 

YourMaster

Member
whats the consequence then. Letting people die like many countries including the US did with the jews that tried to flee from the nazis

This is where it all breaks down,... we're using regulations that were created in response to the horrors in WWII, where the most powerful nations in the world were at a struggle for survival. And at the same time a race of people was systematically exterminated and when they fled their own extermination they were sent back as escaped cattle to the slaughterhouse.
This had several causes, but a mayor one was that jew-hatred was common in those days. It is hard to find any excuse to how the refugees were treated those days.

However, when considering the post war days, the rules that were formed are meant to stop a repeat of that very situation, that is unlike what we are seeing today. Keep in mind that there was nobody that could just step in and stop the holocaust, so when making rules they considerations was 'save whoever you can save' and not 'stop the killing at the source'.
Also, the core thing was saving the people from being massacred.

Today, it is all politics.
  • Merkel is being shortsighted and dishonest. She's not helping people, she's thinks that bringing young and fertile people can help solve Germany's demographic problem and she's willing to drown toddlers in the Mediterranean to accomplish this. And they have very real problem their, but this solution is a gamble with the very existence of the German people, something that should be addressed truthfully and democratically.
  • Meanwhile technology has progressed, people everywhere can see that the European Union is both rich and weak. When you advertise that fact you don't attract new friends that want to build a future together with you, but predators looking to claim a share.
  • Politicians and civilians alike are pointing at EU regulations, UN conventions and international rules like those actually mean something. What we're seeing isn't a crisis, it's policy. Putting aside the fact that politicians are there to make sure that the treaties are there for every-bodies benefit and not a noose to hang ourselves and they can change them, it has been shown many times that treaties and agreements can be broken with very little consequences, certainly by powerful countries like Germany.
  • We are all pretending to be stupid. Some are arguing that the problem is complex and can't be fixed. Others are claiming the problem is simple and we should 'Close the borders'. This comes back to the position that we're having a 'problem', but we're making choices. Bad choices because European countries are being destroyed, entire peoples are being exterminated in the middle east, and people are dying in between.
    Closing the borders is useless when you have leaders saying on TV that people may keep coming and policies in place that accept everybody crossing the waters and breaching the fences.
    Why can't we see it's all a joke, when we want to pay Turkey 3 billion a year and a veiled promise to allow him to terrorize his own minorities to beg him to prevent people from using small boats to cross over from turkey to the nearby Greek isles, and go on to shelter those who make the crossing in massive ferries? How easy is it to use that ferry to ship all those people back. The same goes for the people over land, you don't need borders to keep them out, you'll find them at the registration center and if you don't want them in the country you can deport them from there.
  • We're showing no commitment at all to do anything to stop the exodus in the middle east and to saveguard the non-IS people from IS, the Kurds from the Turks, the rebels from the Russians or the Syrian regime from the rebels. Yes, intervening here would be costly for Europe, and we've been used to the US doing the military spending for us, but stopping this is both our moral obligation and in the long term a cheaper alternative to the current policies.
 

Faerith

Neo Member
Dublin is one sided and benefits only central european states like france and germany while boarder states like greece or italy are fucked. It already doesnt work and saying that we can have open boarders within europe with dublin again is kore idealistic than what merkel is trying to do. If you think lopsided unequal treaties will create good long term relationships you are dead wrong.

To be honest if merkel was like orban than she could have closed boarders and sent refugees back to greece but that would have meant the end of the EU.

Uhm, that's why I said "Crazy, I know". Didn't notice this might be missread,
probably should have left my followup, about wondering if bribery was involved or if it "simply" was a majority-vote thing, in.

But why would she? She has her totaly democratic, humanistic buddy Erdogan, who will contain further refugees in, in the future. No worries there. /s
No need to make oneself the badguy, when there are others to do so. Everyone else is closing their borders for her (indirectly for her). *Merkel-Triangle with pointy end up*
 

MrBigBoy

Member
It is sad that countries like Sweden and Germany must bear all of the weight.
You do know that other countries also take in lots of refugees? Belgian for example has taken in alot of them.

Also, there are many refugees who tell the Belgian press that they want to return to their home countries eventually. So I don't mind these big numbers of people coming in.
I don't mean I don't want them, they are free to stay.
 
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