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[KittenMaster]

Everyone? That's just a vocal minority that didn't understand the context of the game. Complaining about nanomachines is like complaining about "Cyborgs" in Metal Gear Rising.

Cyborgs in MGR were just that, cyborgs. The game was really about the men inside the suits and even brought back a few metaphysical elements of the series that MGS4 tried to explain away.

Nanomachines in MGS4 were a storytelling crutch for the most part to put a band-aid on certain elements.

 

[Ishida]

Cyborgs in MGR were just that, cyborgs. The game was really about the men inside the suits and even brought back a few metaphysical elements of the series that MGS4 tried to explain away.

Nanomachines in MGS4 were a storytelling crutch for the most part to put a band-aid on certain elements.

Nanomachines in MGS4 were the whole context of the world/situation that got started/predicted in MGS2. It made absolutely perfect sense.

One of the main themes of MGS4 was humanity being slaved by the technology they created. Nanomachines inside our bodies controlled everything and everyone, down to the civilian level. We were slaves to the tools we created to help us.

Of course, some people simply refuse to see that and "lolnanomachines". But as I said, it's a vocal minority. The game and it's plot were praised by both critics and fans alike.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Uh. Sorry. Sorry, uh, sorry.

I don't mean to barge in... Sorry. I'm a newbie, I... uh, sorry. Ehem.

Freakin me out, man. Freakin me out. Settle down and play whichever version of MGS1 that appeals to you. People here act like The Twin Snakes is an unforgivable sin, but it's the same story with a different flavor. I appreciated the characters actually having faces, that alone made it worth it for me. Hard to connect with what looks like a cardboard box with some charcoal smeared on it. Then again, some of the mood lighting of the original was lost. There are pros and cons of either, just watch gameplay of both and see which one looks more fun for you.

 

[Palpable]

Cyborgs in MGR were just that, cyborgs. The game was really about the men inside the suits and even brought back a few metaphysical elements of the series that MGS4 tried to explain away.

Nanomachines in MGS4 were a storytelling crutch for the most part to put a band-aid on certain elements.

This. As a story and as a game, MGS4 was great. Couple that with trying to answer MGS2 points that were meant to be left unanswered and you've got yourself a mess.

 

[Resilient]

This. As a story and as a game, MGS4 was great. Couple that with trying to answer MGS2 points that were meant to be left unanswered and you've got yourself a mess.

Lol what? What points were meant to be left unanswered?

Just cause you didn't understand MGS4 doesn't make the plot a contrived mess..there is meaning behind it. There are too many games that just present the story to you at face value. Then, when we have ones that are slightly complicated + span centuries, they get written off as messy.

 

[Screaming Meat]

(EDIT: One of) MGS4's problems is the pandering to fans. I understand why he did it and in it's own way it was sweet, but Kojima soars when he does whatever the hell he goddamn wants.

No other MG game has ever been so enslaved by it's predecessors as MGS4.

 

[Palpable]

Lol what? What points were meant to be left unanswered?

Just cause you didn't understand MGS4 doesn't make the plot a contrived mess..there is meaning behind it. There are too many games that just present the story to you at face value. Then, when we have ones that are slightly complicated + span centuries, they get written off as messy.

(EDIT: One of) MGS4's problem is the pandering to fans. I understand why he did it and in it's own way it was sweet, but Kojima soars when he does whatever the hell he goddamn wants.

No other MG game has ever been so enslaved by it's predecessors as MGS4.

What Meat said. I never said I didn't understand MGS4. Where did you get that from? Kojima wanted to leave MGS2 open for interpretation. I'm on my phone so I'm not gonna search for links, but read MGS4 Sold Out that I linked earlier and some sources for where Kojima said those things about MGS2.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Oh man if you haven't watched this yet you have to.

This guy is so fucking stupid but the comments on screen make this video very entertaining.

Warning major MGS3 and MGS2 spoilers.

This is how you DON'T play MGS3.

 

[KittenMaster]

Nanomachines in MGS4 were the whole context of the world/situation that got started/predicted in MGS2. It made absolutely perfect sense.

One of the main themes of MGS4 was humanity being slaved by the technology they created. Nanomachines inside our bodies controlled everything and everyone, down to the civilian level. We were slaves to the tools we created to help us.

Of course, some people simply refuse to see that and "lolnanomachines". But as I said, it's a vocal minority. The game and it's plot were praised by both critics and fans alike.

I get that... the problem I have is that the nanomachine concept started to be abused to do pretty much whatever they wanted

Spoiler

like how it was a way to bring back Big Boss or replacing a lot of supernatural elements with their tech.

 

[Sub_Level]

I don't think MGS2's questions were "unanswerable". They just happened to be answered in a really stupid way with regards to MGS4 (imo).

MGS2 didn't write anything into a corner. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to make Paramedic, Sigint, Eva, Ocelot, Big Boss, and Major Zero the founding members of the Patriots. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to make Ocelot brainwash himself into being Liquid as opposed to Ocelot literally serving as a physical host for the mental manifestation of Liquid. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to remove any semblance of ambiguity from the Patriots' goals and turn "them" into warmongers. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to turn the Patriots into AI as opposed to the AIs being merely a tool controlled by human members. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to have some of the least memorable bosses in the series with homogenous backstories the vast majority of people didn't care about. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to focus on Johnny Sasaki as an actual important character. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to relegate Vamps powers to nanomachines. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to center Naomi's death around nanomachines. MGS2 didn't force MGS4 to turn Raiden in a cyborg ninja with high heels who can strike people down with lightning seemingly at will (?). And MGS2 sure as heck didn't force MGS4 to bring Big Boss back.

We could have had a sequel to MGS2 that wasn't anything like MGS4.

 

[Ishida]

I get that... the problem I have is that the nanomachine concept started to be abused to do pretty much whatever they wanted

Spoiler

like how it was a way to bring back Big Boss or replacing a lot of supernatural elements with their tech.

As much as I love the supernatural elements of the series, it didn't bother me that much that they used technology to explain a lot of the new things. Ocelot even hints at this at the end of Metal Gear Solid 2: "There's no such thing as miracles or the supernatural, only cutting edge technology", and "no mumbo-jumbo".

Besides, there are STILL supernatural elements in MGS4. Screaming Mantis was a real psychic, and she was being controlled by the actual ghost of Psycho Mantis, which makes a comic appearance along with the ghost of The Sorrow.

One of the concepts behind MGS4 was a futuristic world where humanity actually "created it's own magic through technology and science", and of course that new "magic" took control of humanity and enslaved it. To me, it was such a magnificent subject that was approached perfectly during the game.

Metal Gear Solid 4 took most or all the loose ends in the series and tied them up masterfully. It had a very hard mission, and it carried it out in a fantastic way.

 

[Screaming Meat]

As much as I love the supernatural elements of the series, it didn't bother me that much that they used technology to explain a lot of the new things. Ocelot even hints at this at the end of Metal Gear Solid 2: "There's no such thing as miracles or the supernatural, only cutting edge technology", and "no mumbo-jumbo".

That doesn't really back your point up. He gets proven wrong straight after saying that... not once (Fortune) but twice ("This Arm!"). These are supernatural occurrences and the latter only became a tech thing when it was retconned, so there was no intention for it to be a hint of things to come when written.

I'm glad you liked it. For me, MGS4 is the most problematic, troubled and least satisfying Kojima entry in the series. Still played the fuck out of it though XD

 

[Dawg]

Oh man if you haven't watched this yet you have to.

This guy is so fucking stupid but the comments on screen make this video very entertaining.

Warning major MGS3 and MGS2 spoilers.

This is how you DON'T play MGS3.

I didn't even have to click the video to know it would be DSP.

 

[Ishida]

That doesn't really back your point up. He gets proven wrong straight after saying that... not once (Fortune) but twice ("This Arm!"). These are supernatural occurrences and the latter only became a tech thing when it was retconned.

I'm glad you liked it. For me, MGS4 is the most problematic, troubled and least satisfying Kojima entry in the series. Still played the fuck out of it though XD

It does back up my point. The series was gearing up towards a more scientific (Crazy science) approach. I even mentioned that MGS4 does have supernatural elements, but Ocelot was clearly foreshadowing the rise of technology as the new "magic".

EDIT: Fortune's magic was never retconned. It stayed as an unexplainable event. Ocelot's arm was not retconned either. At the end of MGS2 he got rid of Liquid's arm because it threw his mind off balance, and instead decided for the scientific approach (Bionic arm, hypnosis and nanos).

 

[Dawg]

I still think Kiefer's voice is cool, but I really wonder if he'll ever be able to pull something off like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3B4hA7WXfQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1m52s

 

[Ishida]

I still think Kiefer's voice is cool, but I really wonder if he'll ever be able to pull something off like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3B4hA7WXfQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1m52s

Damn. Hayter is just perfect.

 

[Screaming Meat]

It does back up my point. The series was gearing up towards a more scientific (Crazy science) approach. I even mentioned that MGS4 does have supernatural elements, but Ocelot was clearly foreshadowing the rise of technology as the new "magic".

It's not foreshadowing if it's retconned, man.

I'm fairly sure that Kojima didn't have MGS4's themes in mind when he wrote it. When it was written (and in the context of the scene) it served as a set up for a punch line ("Fortune really does have supernatural powers!"), similar in function to, say, Shaggy in Scooby Doo proclaiming "There's no such thing as ghosts" only for a ghost to pop up immediately after.

EDIT: Fortune's magic was never retconned. It stayed as an unexplainable event. Ocelot's arm was not retconned either. At the end of MGS2 he got rid of Liquid's arm because it threw his mind off balance, and instead decided for the scientific approach (Bionic arm, hypnosis and nanos).

I never said Fortune's event was retconned, just "This Arm!". Did that arm removal happen in MGS2? If it didn't (which it didn't), it's a retcon.

 

[Ishida]

It's not foreshadowing if it's retconned, man.

I'm fairly sure that Kojima didn't have MGS4's themes in mind when he wrote it. When it was written (and in the context of the scene) it served as a set up for a punch line ("Fortune really does have supernatural powers!"), similar in function to, say, Shaggy in Scooby Doo proclaiming "There's no such thing as ghosts" only for a ghost to pop up immediately after.

Not really sure what you mean by "it was retconned". What exactly was retconned?

Fortune's powers were real. Liquid's ghosts possessing Ocelot was real, and then Ocelot got rid of the spooky thing. No retcon in sight.

 

[KittenMaster]

Fortune's powers left me wondering whether it was truly her regaining control or the patriots continuing to write a script beyond the comprehension and exposition of the characters.

MGS4 would answer that ambiguity with what's most likely a disappointing answer.

I feel like this is a Final Fantasy 8 situation where I am pretty much guaranteed to lose an internet argument concerning plot points, but IMHO if I feel like I need to be explained why something should work, I start to have serious doubts as to whether it actually works.

 

[Ishida]

It's not foreshadowing if it's retconned, man.

I'm fairly sure that Kojima didn't have MGS4's themes in mind when he wrote it. When it was written (and in the context of the scene) it served as a set up for a punch line ("Fortune really does have supernatural powers!"), similar in function to, say, Shaggy in Scooby Doo proclaiming "There's no such thing as ghosts" only for a ghost to pop up immediately after.



I never said Fortune's event was retconned, just "This Arm!". Did that arm removal happen in MGS2? If it didn't (which it didn't), it's a retcon.

No, it happened after the events of MGS2 and before MGS4. It's not a retcon. A retcon would've been MGS4 saying that the MGS2 was also the same bionic arm (Which was not, we saw it).

 

[Screaming Meat]

Not really sure what you mean by "it was retconned". What exactly was retconned?

Fortune's powers were real. Liquid's ghosts possessing Ocelot was real, and then Ocelot got rid of the spooky thing. No retcon in sight.

I was of the understanding that all of his "possessions" in MGS2 were part of the whole doppleganger deal suggested in MGS4.

He replaced the arm because it was causing an imbalance in his psyche and allowed the Liquid element that he had created via nanomachines (son) and hypnotherapy (which he started in 2007, as I recall) to gain control (although it was really part of the ruse to deceive the Patriots), not actually Liquid's spirit as suggested in MGS2. That's the retcon.

 

[Ishida]

I was of the understanding that all of his "possessions" was part of the whole doppleganger deal. He replaced the arm because it was causing an imbalance in his psyche and allowed the Liquid element that he had created via nanomachines (son) and hypnotherapy (which he started in 2007, as I recall) to gain control, not actually Liquid's spirit as suggested in MGS2. That's the retcon.

As far as I know, the possession was real, during MGS2. But it was unpredictable, and it could become a danger to Ocelot's plan to fool The Patriot's system, as Liquid would only emerge during the presence of Solid Snake.

So he got rid of the possessed arm, and instead decided for the "technological" approach. One that would turn him completely into Liquid instead of the "sudden bursts" that wouldn't fool the Patriots completely.

When it comes to real retcons, the Metal Gear series is surprisingly consistent and keeps them to a minimum. I believe the only REAL retcons have to do with Gray Fox's first encounter with Big Boss (Dates, ages and stuff).

 

[KittenMaster]

Retcon or not, Liquid, a character who clearly still had motivations and went against the grain of the system and a highly popular character was effectively written out of the story as a result.

 

[GreyOcelot]

this discussion is just serving to remind me of how bad the story is in MGS4. i really hope phantom pain is more MGS1/MGS3-ish and less MGS2/MGS4-ish.

 

[Ishida]

Retcon or not, Liquid, a character who clearly still had motivations and went against the grain of the system and a highly popular character was effectively written out of the story as a result.

Which is ok, since it gave Ocelot (A way superior character, by the way!) more credit in the plan to take down The Patriots.

this discussion is just serving to remind me of how bad the story is in MGS4. i really hope phantom pain is more MGS1/MGS3-ish and less MGS2/MGS4-ish.

I hope it is a fusion of both.

 

[Screaming Meat]

As far as I know, the possession was real, during MGS2. But it was unpredictable, and it could become a danger to Ocelot's plan to fool The Patriot's system, as Liquid would only emerge during the presence of Solid Snake.

So he got rid of the possessed arm, and instead decided for the "technological" approach. One that would turn him completely into Liquid instead of the "sudden bursts" that wouldn't fool the Patriots completely.

When it comes to real retcons, the Metal Gear series is surprisingly consistent and keeps them to a minimum. I believe the only REAL retcons have to do with Gray Fox's first encounter with Big Boss (Dates, ages and stuff).

I'm pretty sure it wasn't real, man. It was all part of their grand scheme. Ocelot had to "become" Liquid to fool the AI. As far as I was aware, that was one of the key revelations that Big Boss made at the end of MGS4.

"Cats... Do like to play as Snakes" or words to that effect. Even the official strategy guide suggests the same under the character profile for him:

"During the Big Shell incident in 2009 (and, for that matter, the theft of Metal Gear RAY two years previously), Ocelot again concealed his true intentions from his enemies, allies and Patriot masters alike through a series of audacious deceptions. His principle innovation was to periodically assume the identity of Liquid, as if somehow possessed by the dead clone. The Patriots, though alarmed by the behaviour, at no point doubted his integrity - as he had planned."

I mean, it could be wrong but that's what I took away from the ending of MGS4.

 

[Ishida]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't real, man. It was all part of their grand scheme. Ocelot had to "become" Liquid to fool the AI. As far as I was aware, that was one of the key revelations that Big Boss made at the end of MGS4.

"Cats... Do like to play as Snakes" or words to that effect. Even the official strategy guide suggests the same under the character profile for him:

"During the Big Shell incident in 2009 (and, for that matter, the theft of Metal Gear RAY two years previously), Ocelot again concealed his true intentions from his enemies, allies and Patriot masters alike through a series of audacious deceptions. His principle innovation was to periodically assume the identity of Liquid, as if somehow possessed by the dead clone. The Patriots, though alarmed by the behaviour, at no point doubted his integrity - as he had planned."

I mean, it could be wrong but that's what I took away from the ending of MGS4.

I took it the other way entirely, especially considering it's pretty much stated in the Database.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I took it the other way entirely, especially considering it's pretty much stated in the Database.

The database is suspect as I recall.

 

[Ishida]

The database is suspect as I recall.

It's a hard debate because there is no clear source that actually states anything clear on the subject. So let's just leave it that I liked MGS4 and you didn't. XD

 

[KittenMaster]

Which is ok, since it gave Ocelot (A way superior character, by the way!) more credit in the plan to take down The Patriots.

I know Ocelot is a great character but by that point they fully invested in what was a character written as Liquid. Quite a way to shift credit, if not unfairly to make Ocelot look better than he already does.

 

[Screaming Meat]

It's a hard debate because there is no clear source that actually states anything clear on the subject. So let's just leave it that I liked MGS4 and you didn't. XD

Well, there's the official guide, the game itself, and the wiki:

Big Boss later revealed to Snake that Liquid "possessing" Ocelot was a planned ruse in order to fool the Patriots as means of lowering The Patriots' guard against him. Big Boss elaborated that Ocelot was able to use hypnosis, drugs, psychotherapy and nanomachines to transplant the personality of Liquid Snake onto himself. Ocelot had removed the transplanted arm of Liquid Snake because the so-called "possessions" during the Manhattan Incident had caused an imbalance to his psyche.

...But sure. I need to go to bed anyway

 

[Ishida]

Well, there's the official guide, the game itself, and the wiki:



...But sure. I need to go to bed anyway

Wiki is edited by fans. Nowhere in the games it is stated outright that Ocelot was faking the possesion during MGS2 (And to be fair, there's no official confirmation that there was actually a ghost). We can merely speculate based on the events.

 

[Toa TAK]

I wish there was a better way to get Liquid in the story again as opposed to being THROUGH THIS ARM.

 

[Sub_Level]

I wish there was a better way to get Liquid in the story again as opposed to being THROUGH THIS ARM.

Well, they are with Eli, unless you meant post-MGS1. In which case I'd say that would be just as silly as the arm thing. He falls off rex after being physically beaten, doesn't die. Is shot at multiple times and experiences jeep collision, doesn't die. Experiences foxdie-induced heart attack, doesn't die? Just let him die pls.

And at any rate, his corpse gets used to hell and back. Ocelot uses his right arm. Philanthropy uses his entire body to make it seem as if Snake died on the tanker. And I guess sometime later the Patriots recreate Big Boss with parts from him and Solidus. Or was that Naomi and Ocelot? I don't remember.

 

[thesolidshark]

In the "if Liquid really possessed Ocelot in MGS2 and 4," I'm more with Ishida on this. Maybe the most glaring thing when I first played 4 was how Ocelot switched from Liquid's original flesh-and-blood arm to a mechanical arm, with no explaining of why up to Big Boss's explanation.

I'd like to know if there's official evidence stating otherwise too, but it's not that big a leap for me to believe the story. In the end, it was probably just an explanation that didn't sit well with a lot of players.

this discussion is just serving to remind me of how bad the story is in MGS4. i really hope phantom pain is more MGS1/MGS3-ish and less MGS2/MGS4-ish.

It's probably going to be Ground Zeroes-ish or Rising-ish where many of the longer story elements are optionally told.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Wiki is edited by fans. Nowhere in the games it is stated outright that Ocelot was faking the possesion during MGS2 (And to be fair, there's no official confirmation that there was actually a ghost). We can merely speculate based on the events.

True, which reflects fairly badly on MGS4 and it's so-called "masterful" answers, I think.

In the "if Liquid really possessed Ocelot in MGS2 and 4," I'm more with Ishida on this. Maybe the most glaring thing when I first played 4 was how Ocelot switched from Liquid's original flesh-and-blood arm to a mechanical arm, with no explaining of why up to Big Boss's explanation.

I'd like to know if there's official evidence stating otherwise too, but it's not that big a leap for me to believe the story. In the end, it was probably just an explanation that didn't sit well with a lot of players.

All I can find is The Official Strategy Guide's explanation, the wiki (suspect), and of course Big Boss' speech/flashback combo:

"And Ocelot... In order to fool the System... Used nano-machines and psychotherapy to transplant Liquid's personality onto his own. He used hypnotic suggestion to turn himself into Liquid's mental doppelganger. For all our advances in nanotechnology... Information and genetic control... They've never managed to control people at will... Let alone turn one person totally into another."

*Cue flashback showing Liquid Ocelot in MGS2*

There is also a nice explanation from GameFAQs (I know it isn't official, but still) which ties it to one of the game's major themes quite succinctly:

MGS4's central theme seems to be about the "wills" of people, and how their wills are carried on after they die. Both Big Boss and Zero believed that they had adopted The Boss's will, and they wanted to shape the world according to her vision. Of course, the results were an epic disaster. MGS4 argues that the will of a person ends when they die. Thus, The Boss's will died with her, and Big Boss and Zero were left with interpretations of her will.

This theme applies to Liquid Ocelot. Just like The Boss, the will of Liquid Snake died with him. Ocelot was never possessed; it was an elaborate ruse, just as Big Boss said. Ocelot never actually inherited the will of Liquid Snake.

Since my PS3 died a while back I haven't had access to the MGS4 database. I'd be interested to see what is written there now, although I've been told a number of facts on there were incorrect:

I took it the other way entirely, especially considering it's pretty much stated in the Database.

Just a head's up. I found this on the the Wiki regarding the veracity of the MGS4 database around release time (again, take with a grain of salt and it may have changed since):

There was also some controversy over Liquid Ocelot's handling, as the Database makes vague hints in some articles suggesting that Liquid's personality was in control but subsequently contradicting this information saying it was an act all along in other articles.

I never realised this "possession" deal was a point for debating till last night XD

 

[hateradio]

I'm of the belief that Liquid is dead and that Ocelot was just doing it to somehow make the Patriots underestimate him.

You can't really transplant a personality from an arm, nanomachines, or therapy.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'm of the belief that Liquid is dead and that Ocelot was just doing it to somehow make the Patriots underestimate him.

You can't really transplant a personality from an arm, nanomachines, or therapy.

To be fair, there is a lot of stuff in MGS that you "can't really" do.

*shudders*

 

[Toa TAK]

To be fair, there is a lot of stuff in MGS that you "can't really" do.

*shudders*

Most awkward achievement ever earned.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Most awkward achievement ever earned.

Absolutely. I was far more comfortable banging Kaz.

 

[Toa TAK]

Absolutely. I was far more comfortable banging Kaz.

Ha!

Haven't gotten that mission yet. The custom AIs are hard as hell. And there's no way I'm going to beat Peace Walker again.

 

[Sub_Level]

I need help understanding MGS1. Going back over the story after a long time.

There are two keys: the nuclear activation codes and the override keys.

Nuclear Activation Codes: I guess this refers to the activation of the advanced nuclear warhead they were gonna put on REX's rail gun. Baker and the Darpa Chief know one. Both have surgical implants to block out Psycho Mantis. So Ocelot tortures them instead. Baker gives up his at that point, but the Darpa Chief never does. So how do they get the second code?

Override Keys: Baker hands this to Meryl. In the bathroom scene, Meryl hands this to Snake. This is pretty self-explanatory, it ends up being the temperature malleable PAL card that ends up actually activating REX. But why was FOXHOUND trying to kill Snake if they didn't know the trick yet? You could say that Ocelot was pretending, the Raven tank fight was meant to be some sort of test, and Wolf wasn't going to really kill Snake at that point, but the Mantis fight, second Sniper Wolf fight, and second Raven fight are all seemingly to the death. Were they pretending as well and decided to "take one for the team"?

I'm of the belief that Liquid is dead and that Ocelot was just doing it to somehow make the Patriots underestimate him.

You can't really transplant a personality from an arm, nanomachines, or therapy.

After MGS3 came out, the idea was that Ocelot might have had a natural predisposition to serve as a psychic vessel for the dead, being related to The Sorrow and all.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I need help understanding MGS1. Going back over the story after a long time.

There are two keys: the nuclear activation codes and the override keys.

Nuclear Activation Codes: I guess this refers to the activation of the advanced nuclear warhead they were gonna put on REX's rail gun. Baker and the Darpa Chief know one. Both have surgical implants to block out Psycho Mantis. So Ocelot tortures them instead. Baker gives up his at that point, but the Darpa Chief never does. So how do they get the second code?

Override Keys: Baker hands this to Meryl. In the bathroom scene, Meryl hands this to Snake. This is pretty self-explanatory, it ends up being the temperature malleable PAL card that ends up actually activating REX. But why was FOXHOUND trying to kill Snake if they didn't know the trick yet? You could say that Ocelot was pretending, the Raven tank fight was meant to be some sort of test, and Wolf wasn't going to really kill Snake at that point, but the Mantis fight, second Sniper Wolf fight, and second Raven fight are all seemingly to the death. Were they pretending as well and decided to "take one for the team"?

Interesting point. Did they know about Liquid's plan?

After MGS3 came out, the idea was that Ocelot might have had a natural predisposition to serve as a psychic vessel for the dead, being related to The Sorrow and all.

I'm personally pretty certain MGS4 put paid to that. The whole thing was a ruse. Someone should tweet Kojima and get a final word on it.

Ha!

Haven't gotten that mission yet. The custom AIs are hard as hell. And there's no way I'm going to beat Peace Walker again.

You on Xbox?

 

[Toa TAK]

^^^i am

After MGS3 came out, the idea was that Ocelot might have had a natural predisposition to serve as a psychic vessel for the dead, being related to The Sorrow and all.

Oh wait, now that actually makes sense.

But the ARM is still so dumb!

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Anyone know if there's a different version or a remix of Can't Say Goodbye To Yesterday out there? The one at the end of the MGS2 hiimdaisy hyperdub sounds really cool. Know anything about it?

Re-askin'.

 

[Screaming Meat]

^^^i am

I can back you up if you like? I'm UK based, can't use a headset, and play quite late. I'm not ideal, but my flesh is willing! XD

 

[Ishida]

True, which reflects fairly badly on MGS4 and it's so-called "masterful" answers, I think.

No, not really. It just took the story into a better way.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Re-askin'.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=+Can't+Say+Goodbye+To+Yesterday+remix

?

 

[Sub_Level]

Re-askin'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB9Kl-0dJrE

This one I think, no?

 

[Golnei]

Re-askin'.

Sounds like Big Shell West Bristol, an early OCRemix.

...Well, that was unnecessary.