Gaaaah. I'm in California, and I would be down to do it later tonight or in the day Wednesday and Thursday. But I'm down!
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Metal Gear Community Thread: Made you wait, didn't I?
- Thread starter JayEH
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Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Ok, so going back to the script it seems like the override keys are just as the name implies, override mechanisms. With the PAL, the need for the Darpa Chief's key was disregarded, and Baker's was ultimately needless.
If Rex had been activated, maybe it would have deactivated it. But since it was deactivated, the override key activated it. They had Decoy Octopus give Snake the impression that he talked.
That still doesn't explain why Mantis, Raven, and Wolf were legit trying to fight Snake to the death before they learned the temperature trick. Aside from the fact that they're lunatics.
If Rex had been activated, maybe it would have deactivated it. But since it was deactivated, the override key activated it. They had Decoy Octopus give Snake the impression that he talked.
That still doesn't explain why Mantis, Raven, and Wolf were legit trying to fight Snake to the death before they learned the temperature trick. Aside from the fact that they're lunatics.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeesh.
Loads of people hate it, but I LOVED Ocelot's Guns of the Patriots! That was amazing and timed to perfection. They tried a similar trick with Mt Snakemore and it ended up a misfire of epic proportions. It undermined the tension of the scene for me.
Holy... it's 16:26 here.
Really? Too bad! I thought it was awesome and got a chuckle out of me.
It's 10:30am here.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You're half right.
Jay sus, it's 8:30 AM here
Pilgrimzero
Member
As many problems as MGS4 had the one thing that really sticks to me is the Microwave chamber.
Before you go to the ship the General (or whatever) says it's a suicide mission and that microwave chamber will cook whomever goes in there. Snake volunteers because he is dying anyways.
You crawl through inch by inch and it's traumatic. He then barely fights off some security and that's that. And as other have pointed out if he died right there after the suicide chamber and saving the world it would have been amazing but nope...
What did the microwave chamber do to him? Apparently nothing. In fact he's fist fighting soon after, after doping himself up with drugs he's told would also be suicide.
So that's twice he's told "Do this and you will die" he does it and it seems to have no effect on him afterwards.
For me, that was horrible writing.
The other thing is the Arm and Ocelots relation to Sorrow. It would have been better if he was spirit channeling Liquid. Instead it's Nanos and acting. Bleh. Missed opportunity there...
Before you go to the ship the General (or whatever) says it's a suicide mission and that microwave chamber will cook whomever goes in there. Snake volunteers because he is dying anyways.
You crawl through inch by inch and it's traumatic. He then barely fights off some security and that's that. And as other have pointed out if he died right there after the suicide chamber and saving the world it would have been amazing but nope...
What did the microwave chamber do to him? Apparently nothing. In fact he's fist fighting soon after, after doping himself up with drugs he's told would also be suicide.
So that's twice he's told "Do this and you will die" he does it and it seems to have no effect on him afterwards.
For me, that was horrible writing.
The other thing is the Arm and Ocelots relation to Sorrow. It would have been better if he was spirit channeling Liquid. Instead it's Nanos and acting. Bleh. Missed opportunity there...
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
^^^I loved the Microwave Hallway.
Man, Snake does suicide missions all the time. If someone told Snake "don't do X, you'll die!" and he actually listened to them, we would have some pretty boring games.
Thisisn'thappening.gif
Man, Snake does suicide missions all the time. If someone told Snake "don't do X, you'll die!" and he actually listened to them, we would have some pretty boring games.
Thisisn'thappening.gif
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
But we're drowning in time!
It has to be this way.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It's
Also:
Re: Did Liquid really possess Ocelot
I found a poster on Neoseeker in 2009 discussing the entries on the MGS4 Database regarding Liquid Ocelot:
Can anyone confirm what it says on the Database for me...? Pwetty pwease?
It's implied although personally I like to imagine it's because Ocelot inherited his father's (The Sorrow) ability to speak with the dead and having Liquid's arm directly on him intensified it to the point where he was possessed into thinking he was Liquid. It could be he was knocked around so hard by Solid Snake at the end of 4 he came back to his normal Ocelot persona and thought he was doing everything like he normally did.
Either way the whole "faking it" BS was terrible if that's really it.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Sorry, I meant could someone confirm what it says on the MGS4 Database (I've edited the post to clear that up).
I was pretty sure it was retconned that it was a ruse all along (see here) and not even up for debate till I came on this here board last night.
It's shaken my faith in my knowledge of MGS lore to the core! XD
Liquid dies at the end of MGS1. Anything after that is just Ocelot using his ESP powers/nanomachines/more nanomachines to channel Liquid's persona, to the point where he actually believes he's Liquid.
I know a lot of people hate this, but I kinda like it, if only for the fact that it retroactively made Liquid's death at the end of MGS1 more meaningful.
A fake possession was pretty smart, but obviously MGS3 implied it was real. It must have been decided it was fake during MGS4's development.
Feel that, since people laughed at it in MGS2 -rightly so, since it was ridiculous-, the fakeout made sense, but MGS3 makes it dumb again, since MGS3 established a basis for the possession to make sense somehow. Kojima should have stuck to one interpretation only.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
MGS4 doesn't go back and actually definitively say Ocelot WASN'T possessed during MGS2. It just makes the whole thing meaningless since Ocelot brainwashes himself into becoming Liquid and gets a new prosthetic ANYWAY.
I'm confused why Ocelot felt the need to brainwash himself in the first place. How exactly does that fool the AIs? What does that accomplish?
He did it so he would fool the System completely. As Big Boss puts it: The AI is nothing more than a program that repeats cycles over and over again. Ocelot and Eva knew that the Patriots would try to eliminate Liquid by sending Solid Snake after him.
Ocelot's charade distracted the Patriots from Ocelot, EVA and Naomi's true objective: To buy time in order to develop a virus strong enough to defeat them. Basically, the whole ordeal was a gigantic "HEY! LOOK OVER HERE!" to the Patriots.
Naomi worked alongside the plan. While Solid Snake and Liquid Ocelot had the Patriots occupied and distracted, she developed the virus along with Sunny, using Emma's worm cluster.
EDIT: The Patriots had to believe 100% that Liquid Ocelot was Liquid. I believe Ocelot knew that a simple "acting" would not be convincing enough, and they would know something was off (Perhaps they would've discovered that Ocelot was a traitor all along). So he turned himself 100% into Liquid. If he himself believed it, then the System would also believe it.
TheCthultist
Member
The whole implication was that, during MGS2, Ocelot did in fact get obsessed by Liquid's arm. Being the son of The Sorrow, he likely had a distinct psychic connection with the dead and this enabled Liquid to temporarily effect his mind. After the unnecessary destruction and completely loss of control associated with the Arsenal Gear incident, Ocelokt finally had the arm removed to take out the possibility of being overshadowed at an inoppertune moment. Hence the new arm in Guns of the Patriots. The hypnosis and nanomachines were simply to complete the illusion to make sure it was entirely impossible for the Patriot AI's to determine the difference.
The only part it's not entirely clear on is who, exactly, knew he was doing this to himself. From what the final scenes depict, it could have just been Ocelot and Big Boss who were aware of the deception. But people have been trying to figure out if EVA had any idea about it prior to her death. Based on her reaction toward the end of her time in 4, I'd have to imagine she didn't, but I've heard some very compelling arguements that claim she knew the whole time too.
The only part it's not entirely clear on is who, exactly, knew he was doing this to himself. From what the final scenes depict, it could have just been Ocelot and Big Boss who were aware of the deception. But people have been trying to figure out if EVA had any idea about it prior to her death. Based on her reaction toward the end of her time in 4, I'd have to imagine she didn't, but I've heard some very compelling arguements that claim she knew the whole time too.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I guess it makes sense when you consider that Outer Heaven 2014 was an organization that the Patriots allowed to exist. When they saw one of their agents had gone haywire, they didnt assassinate him because they saw he had gone on to create an organization that would fuel the war economy. He was conveniently repurposed in their eyes. When the patriots decided it was time to pull the plug on him, he had seized control of sop and it was too late.
Pretty much. The whole objective was to stage a drama in front of the "master puppeteers" themselves (The Patriots). Fool the ones who used to fool everyone else.
Once Liquid Ocelot took control of SOP, the Patriots went into panic mode, and had Snake (Through the help of the Rat Patrol) eliminate the threat, just as he had done in the past (Cycles and stuff). While the Patriots had their attention focused on Liquid's rebellion, Naomi and Sunny had time and freedom to create the virus that would eventually terminate the System itself.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I think it's telling that as Big Boss explains Ocelot's ruse we get an MGS2 flashback, specifically Ocelot's very first appearance as "Liquid". Remember, Naomi and Ocelot's plan was set into motion before even MGS (Dr Clark's assassination), so this scheme was going on for, what, about a decade? Maybe more?
Add to that The Official Strategy Guide saying MGS2's "possession" was part of the deception, as well as (apparently) the spoiler sections of the MGS4 Database backing it up (can someone who has the Database confirm that for me and put me out of my misery? XD), and I think the evidence weighs pretty heavily in favour of the "possessions" all being acted out by Ocelot to deceive The Patriots. It was after all, Big Boss' big revelation at the end of MGS4.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
The thing is, Liquid posessing or Ocelot brainwashing is largely arbitrary. It really being Liquid would have still served as a distraction for Naomi. Thr only factor that would hve changed would have been Ocelot's ulterior motive that he revealed in Act V (making people see the value of life through war or something like that)
I think I would have just taken the original arm and Cam Clark over a doppleganger Zimmerman.
I think I would have just taken the original arm and Cam Clark over a doppleganger Zimmerman.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
In MGS4, it's a little more than a distraction for Naomi. The Liquid ruse is also to cover his own moves against The Patriots in (ridiculous as it seems) as convincing a manner as possible. He's subtly maneuvering Snake and the virus into the best possible position whilst appearing to be blocking them at every turn. If it were actually Liquid's Spirit in control then I'm not sure the plot or his actions would make much sense (it's been a while).
The issue really centres on MGS2 and Liquid Ocelot's role in that. MGS4 is obviously written with The Liquid Ruse in mind, whereas MGS2 isn't.
Ocelot being either the ghostly wildcard or the magnificent bastard really changes things up. If Liquid was part of Ocelot's overall plan, how exactly did Liquid's erratic behaviour benefit Ocelot in the context of MGS2? Why did his spirit only surface when Snake was around and how does that benefit Ocelot's long term plan in any way? Barring verisimilitude (which is frankly a weak-as-wet-cardboard argument), it simply doesn't add up to me.
I'd have preferred it if they'd run with the possession thing rather than retcon it, but from all the sources I mentioned and my readings from multiple playthroughs, it's pretty clear they didn't. It speaks volumes about the narrative issues in MGS4 and how they unfortunately pervert the rest of the series canon.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Ocelot was portrayed as a loyal Patriot spy in MGS2. They could have maintained that idea with mgs4 if they went with a literal posession so they wouldnt have to write around Ocelot's anti patriot goals. On phone now so cant address rest of your post yet.
At least she's the big spoon.
Well now.
But that wasn't really implied was it? If he could talk to the dead, he wouldn't need to attach an arm to himself.
That, or Liquid just had wrong information.
Id help but im PS3 plat the game id get you S rank everything.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Bahaha!
I'm really glad they didn't go with that route.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
That would've been amazing.
We'll never see eye to eye, will we?
I think I've found a friend.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
As of the release of MGS2 he was on the side of the Patriots. He attached the arm because it was convenient to do so, not because he purposely wanted to become Liquid.
That would've been amazing.
We'll never see eye to eye, will we?
Probably not, my friend.
Probably not.
XD
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Requoting this for beauty
ItsTheNew
I believe any game made before 1997 is "essentially cave man art."
What's up late to the party buddy?! The only MGS game I've ever beat was the twin snakes and I tried to play mgs 2 10 years ago. Just completed it and I'm in the process of beating 3. I can see why the cutscenes and story are so well liked, but I can't stand the gameplay at all.
TheCthultist
Member
It's been a few years since I last played 4. What reason did they give for Ocelot removing Liquid's arm from himself and replacing it with the artificial one?
Skullface
Member
Perhaps they'll retcon LES to take place later than originally stated. "Our genes are vintage, brother!"
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
MGS4 never covered it. The Database might have.
An obvious reason to infer would be that he didn't want Liquid possessing him, which does support the notion that he really was possessed in Sons of Liberty.
Doubt it. Eli doesn't look much younger than 12. 1972 is the date they're keeping I think.
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