Reading this.
EDIT: so this is saying that i was played like a fiddle the whole time... i can see that, and i don't think that is the reason why people outrage at what MGSV has done.
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Metal Gear Solid Community |OT4| God Bless the Chopper!
- Thread starter PrinceOfWhatever
- Start date
Reading this.
EDIT: so this is saying that i was played like a fiddle the whole time... i can see that, and i don't think that is the reason why people outrage at what MGSV has done.
Generally what I'm seeing is that people didn't get what they themselves wanted, to me that is fine because I wanted to see the story Kojima/KojiPro wanted to tell.
That has always been the case, I don't care about what I want or what you or another fan wants. I'm in it for the surprises that the series has thrown at us since forever. After MGS1 I did not expect a story like MGS2 and after MGS2 I sure as heck didn't expect a prequel with Big Boss.
With MGSV I feel like I've gone back in time to MGS2, with Kojima telling the story he wants and pulling crazy twists, with many of the fans complaining. And I'm defending MGSV just like I was MGS2 back then lol, which to this day is my no.1 game of all time. So yeah, I don't get the hate now just like I didn't get it back then.
MGS2 is very different. It doesn't rely on one single character for the story to be successful. What i read just now is an essay on VS. Talks about him and him alone and why he is an interesting character, isntead of a blank slate. I can see that, and if one character was enough to justify a whole game, then i think the reaction would be more positive.
MGS2 was a great game that just like MGSV used deception and manipulation. I fell for it, and many felt betrayed because of it. I understand the hate that game received, but the story is interesting in itself. The whole premise is based on a simulation to gather data... with some really memorable characters and story line that tie it together. I might be one of those guys that dislikes Raiden. But i still find the whole premise to be interesting. MGSV lacks that. From the characters taht tie the story, to the importance of a theme and beats to an arch. The game feels fragmented, and it seems to believe that it can present shocking themes through repeating the words as if mantra is enough to engrain that into someones mind.
The twist that MGSV has is not the issue here. That essay is a good reveal as to why the twist is effective. But it never goes to explain how it all matter throughout the game. If you pay attention. The essay talks about the prologue in the hosp and the end scenes. Thats all. No in between. So where does that fit? Its not that important to character development? Now.. MGS is not a character study so i don't expect this... or any of my expectations. But Kojima presented a game, and it backfires for what it is. No need to add my expectations on top.
So in the same way as i disliked MGS2 for Raiden. Back then i was able to appreciate a cultural phenomenon as a positive. Reacting to Kojimas story as he presented it and adding value for what he wanted to say. Sadly, with MGSV all i can see is plot holes, inconsistencies, and flat characters. All painted under an awesome tale that MGS once was.
Good points about everything but for the bolded you're absolutely right. MGS2 whole game is a build up to that S3 plan reveal. MGSV whole game is not a buildup to the ending. There is no buildup at all. It just happens for no reason.
Just so I'm clear, I'm not completely satisfied with the end product. I've just gone from complete hate to ok I understand what Kojima was going for, I like what he was trying to do but it ultimately fell flat.
I get it.
I also get the format that Kojima used to tell this story was not standard. TV format at that. Fragmented, and probably would allow for him to make something more organic. Maybe if he had released episodes of MGSV every month he would have the time to finish his magus opus to something he was happy with.
Considering the amount of polish the game has, and the awesome gameplay. Its hard to see Kojima be unhappy about the product. But how Kojima and Konami parted ways.. says a lot. Unfinished, flat and lacking impact. There is a big reason why it happened, and its hard to ignore.
I really think chapter 1 was not the end of the story. But the first third of what was to come. Chapter 1 is paced in an interesting way, it made sense for the format... and when it ends, it leaves you aching for the next "season". Chapter 2 comes as the afterthought and it hardly justifies till the end. With random cutscenes appearing with no lead up... missions that end as side ops... it was all crunched down to ship the game.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The problem with the essay (apart from my not agreeing with one particular aspect) is that it spends most of its time addressing narrative concerns rather than tying the themes to the gameplay. It's less critical analysis and more narrative justification. Taken as the latter, it works nicely but what you're pointing out is outside its scope.
How does the twist relate to everything that happens in between the prologue and the end? It's a great question.
So the twist is (in a meta narrative sense) the player is told they are Big Boss and that they have helped build the legend of Big Boss. In the context of this game alone, the player has helped build that legend by playing the game and by the choices we have made during it. Kojima gives the player freedom, more so than he's ever done before, and that should ram that final twist home. This time, even though we aren't actually Big Boss: The Man, we really are Big Boss: The Legend, the one everyone talks about in hushed reverence during subsequent games in the chronology.
"Let the legend come to life!" is said to us just before we are given the reigns to the game (pun intended by me, perhaps by Kojima too). Each mission is one of many vignettes that all contribute to the tapestry of BB's legend. Outside of cutscenes we are given a choice over every aspect of the gameplay: what missions we take, when we execute them, who we play as, what we use, who we take with us, how we complete the mission, what we build, what we research etc. We are building and contributing to the very legend Big Boss talks to Venom about (as well as the other game's we've played).
"Did you hear? The One Eyed Man kidnapped everyone in OKB!"
"I heard he loaded a jeep with C4 and rammed a squad of Walker Gears."
"They say he can control the weather!"
"I heard he was a Dushman."
"No, the guy said Douche, man."
"Oh... What's a douche?"
So no, narratively the bulk of the game is its own thing (although I view the body double angle as the TV series-style overarching mystery). However, the gameplay itself does link in very nicely with the final twist. Every mission becomes important because they become the stories people tell each other about Big Boss, In fact, not taking that thematic/gameplay link into consideration probably lessens the impact of BB's speech.
"Let the legend come to life!" is said to us just before we are given the reigns to the game (pun intended by me, perhaps by Kojima too). Each mission is one of many vignettes that all contribute to the tapestry of BB's legend. Outside of cutscenes we are given a choice over every aspect of the gameplay: what missions we take, when we execute them, who we play as, what we use, who we take with us, how we complete the mission, what we build, what we research etc. We are building and contributing to the very legend Big Boss talks to Venom about (as well as the other game's we've played).
"Did you hear? The One Eyed Man kidnapped everyone in OKB!"
"I heard he loaded a jeep with C4 and rammed a squad of Walker Gears."
"They say he can control the weather!"
"I heard he was a Dushman."
"No, the guy said Douche, man."
"Oh... What's a douche?"
So no, narratively the bulk of the game is its own thing (although I view the body double angle as the TV series-style overarching mystery). However, the gameplay itself does link in very nicely with the final twist. Every mission becomes important because they become the stories people tell each other about Big Boss, In fact, not taking that thematic/gameplay link into consideration probably lessens the impact of BB's speech.
That's my take anyway.
I'd say I'm the same, although less "fell flat" more "great but flawed experiment." I get what he was trying to do and it wasn't wholly successful. But the gameplay is rock fucking solid.
I'm always in awe of the guy for how brave he is. The head of multiple multimillion dollar projects with an utterly rabid fanbase who manages, for the most part, to really push things and try different stuff. In a world of annual releases, safe and samey stories, and the same mechanics regurgitated again and again, the fact he's trying to shake things up should be praised even if it does fall short.
For sure, came across it by chance.
The article is primarily about the twist so of course it focuses on
Venom and BB
Not sure how the rest can be ignored, there is so much to it. The language as a weapon angle alone, like JayEH mentioned, is so damn interesting and thought provoking.
Beyond that you have Paz with her tragic fate and how in the end she was Venom's own phantom pain deep inside from when he was a medic. How his deeper thoughts seem to come through in her final tape. And how she also ties into Zero.
And of course Huey, which has been turned into very much his own character instead of just being an Otacon clone. His lies, ignorance and blame shifting to the point of actually believing all of it.
Skull Face and the way he operates and manipulates people, like in the Chico/Paz tapes from GZ or the tape with Code Talker and the bell, not to mention the one with Zero. And his back story and reasons for wanting to revenge are also well done. Despite being a brand new character he was connected into the MGS story really well.
And then there is Quiet, excuse me if I don't comment on her looks but I've gotten over revealing designs years ago. I can look at Mai Shiranui, Cammy, Angel etc. and many more designs and see someone cool overall. That aside, she was fantastic and I loved the way her relationship with Venom was formed. The comradery between her and Venom building slowly by going through missions and them looking out for one another, much like how most players grew to like her due to how useful she was in combat. Their bond builds slowly over time, you can even see this in the helicopter since at first Venom only has a couple of her photos up but as the bond grows he adds a few more. This while she is in conflict on the inside and wanting revenge for what happened to her body. There are also the little things like her XOF uniform being called Gray XOF, so from that we can assume that she was likely XOF's equivalent of Gray Fox.
And throughout all this, the themes of revenge and phantom pain have been woven into the characters and story so damn well and bring everything together. With the player even ending up with some phantom pains of his or her own (Quiet leaving, this being the last MGS etc.).
Beyond that you have Paz with her tragic fate and how in the end she was Venom's own phantom pain deep inside from when he was a medic. How his deeper thoughts seem to come through in her final tape. And how she also ties into Zero.
And of course Huey, which has been turned into very much his own character instead of just being an Otacon clone. His lies, ignorance and blame shifting to the point of actually believing all of it.
Skull Face and the way he operates and manipulates people, like in the Chico/Paz tapes from GZ or the tape with Code Talker and the bell, not to mention the one with Zero. And his back story and reasons for wanting to revenge are also well done. Despite being a brand new character he was connected into the MGS story really well.
And then there is Quiet, excuse me if I don't comment on her looks but I've gotten over revealing designs years ago. I can look at Mai Shiranui, Cammy, Angel etc. and many more designs and see someone cool overall. That aside, she was fantastic and I loved the way her relationship with Venom was formed. The comradery between her and Venom building slowly by going through missions and them looking out for one another, much like how most players grew to like her due to how useful she was in combat. Their bond builds slowly over time, you can even see this in the helicopter since at first Venom only has a couple of her photos up but as the bond grows he adds a few more. This while she is in conflict on the inside and wanting revenge for what happened to her body. There are also the little things like her XOF uniform being called Gray XOF, so from that we can assume that she was likely XOF's equivalent of Gray Fox.
And throughout all this, the themes of revenge and phantom pain have been woven into the characters and story so damn well and bring everything together. With the player even ending up with some phantom pains of his or her own (Quiet leaving, this being the last MGS etc.).
I can go on and on about the characters and story, so when someone says that there isn't much there, that just doesn't compute for me.
As usual. Prime post
I hope that whatever Kojima does next he has the backup he wants, and the team to make it happen. I really would like him to get into horror. I think he would do amazing stuff.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
As usual. Prime post
I hope that whatever Kojima does next he has the backup he wants, and the team to make it happen. I really would like him to get into horror. I think he would do amazing stuff.
Thanks, Brau (even if it is full of typos and grammar mistakes)!
He's gotta scratch that SH itch somewhere. I wish I hadn't missed out on PT
Thanks, Brau (even if it is full of typos and grammar mistakes)!
He's gotta scratch that SH itch somewhere. I wish I hadn't missed out on PT
How did you miss out on it? No PS4 at the time? if i share my account with you i think you might be able to get to play the game. Since its in my library.
Its an amazing game.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, totally missed it. Only got the PS4 when TPP came out.
Wait, you'd do that?! Is that even possible?
Love Deterrence
Member
I'm not so convinced Metal Gear will suffer without Kojima. When the news broke about Kojima, I thought "Kojima or bust," but I think it's safe to say that the franchise has had solid non-Kojima offerings; Ghost Babel and Rising are two of the best Metal Gear offerings there are as far as I'm concerned, and the Ac!d series had some pretty cool ideas, at the very least. (And honestly, I find Twin Snakes more enjoyable than the original.) Kojima is a genius and an innovator, no doubt, but he's only one man. Assuming the series will flop without him regardless of staff makeup flagrantly disrespectful. They aren't hired for nothing. Just because their names aren't excessively plastered over the credits doesn't mean their dedication to making the series great is any less meaningful or significant. So yeah, his contributions will be missed, but if a chunk of those other pieces remain in place, the series may not be so quick to go to Hell as people suggest.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
I don't think it's possible to redownload P.T. once deleted.
Key members of KojiPro are leaving with him though. Not only that but many of Konami's devs have left in general. Also look at what became of Castlevania and Silent Hill.
You also mention Rising, a game that KojiPro members failed to make.
Love Deterrence
Member
But I'm talking about the franchise, and that is exactly my point. It's a Metal Gear game, and it was just fine.
Which has no bearing on the mainline series. Rising is a character action game, which a lot of MGS fans are not too fond of.
And it was Kojima himself who personally pushed for PG to work on it, they are good friends with him.
Love Deterrence
Member
I said the franchise, though lol
Love Deterrence
Member
True, pachinko should be big money
Man. So what if they have Pachinko. They are hiring for a New Metal Gear series so I wanna see what that's all about more than ever before.
Of course.
We should try it. I'll send you my ps4 info... you can try it out. Its totally worth it.
It's just tough getting excited with Konami's track record.
I am pretty sure you can.
Also.. on my ps4... you can go to the game list, and all games you have ever downloaded appear there. This one i can set it to download to my PS4 through the website.
I hate to break it to you, but you cant re-download P.T. any more, its completely gone from psn servers, it sucks i know.
I'm 100% sure that Metal gear could continue without Kojima. Rising, Portable ops, Etc were fine games.
I'm 100% sure that metal gear could not continue without Koji pro. Most of them will be gone after all this. Many of the staff have been there since the beginning and know this series inside and out. Kojima is the leader but sometimes many people ignore the great team he has. Some examples I can think of stuff they did was the mgs4 act 4 opening with the pixel snake morphing into old snake. That was thought up by someone else. If you look at the mgs2 documentary Kojima had the staff write down ideas and he used a few of them.
I don't want to take any credit away from Kojima like you said but his team is a huge part of mgs. Sad that most of them will be gone now too.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Not at all. What you're talking about is the big flaw with Auteur Theory. The counter argument is, that the work has a singular vision. Part of that is putting the team that helps make that vision together in the first place. Sergio Leone is a great example where this is exactly the case.
Kojima is a micromanager and no doubt had a hand in picking the team because he felt their skills would help him achieve what he had in mind. That doesn't take their hard work and ideas away, but those ideas had to be vetted by him before inclusion. Gray Fox is the best example of that, I think.
Every great team needs a leader who can get the best out of them.
Is there game director out there who fulfills as many roles in a game as he does? He has like ten credits in MGS1. He does far more then write questionable LENGTHY scripts and edit LENGTHY cutscenes, which Im sure is crazy time consuming while being the director. For instance, he did the map design, enemy routes etc. I think he's very low on the list of game directors that recieve too much credit.
The big issue is that it isn't just Kojima leaving but key members of KojiPro as well, must have been a decent number if Konami started running hiring ads right away. And on top of that they disbanded KojiPro in general and dispersed the members among other teams. So it's not just a case of losing a leader.
It's more interesting to wonder what Kojima will do next, being able to do something new aside, it will be interesting how he proceeds forward and if he sets up his own company. The company could essentially end up as a mini-Konami by being a haven for ex-Konami employees, much like Platinum Games is a mini-Capcom.
It's more interesting to wonder what Kojima will do next, being able to do something new aside, it will be interesting how he proceeds forward and if he sets up his own company. The company could essentially end up as a mini-Konami by being a haven for ex-Konami employees, much like Platinum Games is a mini-Capcom.
onepiecefan
Member
I am pretty sure you can.
Also.. on my ps4... you can go to the game list, and all games you have ever downloaded appear there. This one i can set it to download to my PS4 through the website.
Yh unfortunately you defo can't download it. Tried downloading it on my PS4 as it's on my list but it just says error
Eventually I know I'm gonna backup a friends console with P.T. installed on it, and restore it onto my PS4, I think/hope it'll work that way.Yh unfortunately you defo can't download it. Tried downloading it on my PS4 as it's on my list but it just says error
ugh.. that sucks. why would they remove it for download is still beyond me then. Sucks for the players.. thats it.
Super Bunnyhop review of the game. He puts everything in a more concise way. All backed up with facts of the game.
God i love George so much.
I love the story in V and I can't say that I was not surprised and shocked at how things unfolded in the story. But from the start something was off with the protagonist and many hints were given regarding his identity and yet we didn't take them seriously because our minds didn't accept it. It's not something you can easily adapt to or accept. It is shocking indeed and hard to wrap your head around it. The problem most fans are having is that they had a certain expectation regarding the storyline based on the trailers we got but from the beginning deception was kinda the theme of the whole MGSV project with the Moby Dick Studio ruse and whatnot. In fact, Kojima warned us from the start that he likes to deceive his fans specially when he's creating a new trailer. Misleading fans according to him makes things more fun rather than giving you the answers in the trailers. You see, if he was straightforward in the trailers, things wouldn't have been as fun as they were. Theories/trailer analysis/speculations wouldn't exist and those are the things that kept this project on the radar. We actually took part in MGSV's marketing with every crazy theory we came up with. I think it was his way of keeping the fans interested knowing that the project would take years before completion.
Regarding the story, we all thought that we would eventually build Outer Heaven in Africa, meet Solid Snake and possibly fight him. Except, TPP wasn't really about Big Boss. If it was, this would have been possible but it wasn't what Kojima had in mind from the start. I don't think he was ever interested in remaking MG in TPP. TPP is about the phantoms of the past. Those who don't exist. As the article states, it does show how BB becomes an evil but becoming an evil doesn't necessarily mean go kill 100s of people and blow them up into tiny little pieces. That would be lame and a cliche. I am not going to repeat what the author said but you know what I mean with BB's downfall. People didn't get what they wanted so they hated the story that Kojima wanted to tell. Kojima's way of exploring V's themes was to tell that story. He introduced Raiden for the sake of telling a story. A lot of people hated it because they wanted to play as Solid Snake. Same here. And quite frankly, I'd rather have Kojima do what he wants then cater to fans' wishes cause this is when Kojima will stop being creative. I am really happy with how things ended in V.
Regarding the story, we all thought that we would eventually build Outer Heaven in Africa, meet Solid Snake and possibly fight him. Except, TPP wasn't really about Big Boss. If it was, this would have been possible but it wasn't what Kojima had in mind from the start. I don't think he was ever interested in remaking MG in TPP. TPP is about the phantoms of the past. Those who don't exist. As the article states, it does show how BB becomes an evil but becoming an evil doesn't necessarily mean go kill 100s of people and blow them up into tiny little pieces. That would be lame and a cliche. I am not going to repeat what the author said but you know what I mean with BB's downfall. People didn't get what they wanted so they hated the story that Kojima wanted to tell. Kojima's way of exploring V's themes was to tell that story. He introduced Raiden for the sake of telling a story. A lot of people hated it because they wanted to play as Solid Snake. Same here. And quite frankly, I'd rather have Kojima do what he wants then cater to fans' wishes cause this is when Kojima will stop being creative. I am really happy with how things ended in V.
On an unrelated note. Did you get into the overwatch beta Brau. ?
Yep that vid is pretty good, i posted it in here when it got released.
No, cause i'm a pleb. *starts to cry*
Not only that, i still can't make up my mind whether i want to get an X1, it's driving me crazy.
I was hoping i'd get into the overwatch beta, that i wouldn't have to worry about getting H5.
BanditoMac
Member
If it wouldn't inconvenience you, and if you're sure it your friend wouldn't feel like you taking advantage of his friendship. Then i would like that. if it's not too much trouble. Please
Money is a bit tight at the mo, and 400 pound is a lot. And except for H5 and scalebound, there isn't anything i want on it.
Also, a game like Halo isn't really fun on your own, and i suffer from crippling shyness, and don't have anyone to play with.
And after wasting my money on the JP collector's edition V, i'm terrified of the same happening again, as i'm trying really hard lately to be responsible with money.
Though i still might get one in the morning, i just really don't fucking know. ya know.
Like I said, MGS2 style hate all over again. Not to mention whining about petty things.
If that is how the story came off to you then no wonder you don't like it. Feels like I played a different game.
V3n0m Sn4k3
Member
the_don_patch
Banned
Words That Kill: Metal Gear and the Genocide of Native Americans
A really, really good read.
Words That Kill, indeed. That tape where Code Talker talked about this subject really left me thinking.
Make sure to also read the response he posts from one of his readers. Heart breaking stuff.
A really, really good read.
Words That Kill, indeed. That tape where Code Talker talked about this subject really left me thinking.
Make sure to also read the response he posts from one of his readers. Heart breaking stuff.
I am really happy to see that there are people/fans out there who are working their asses off to make sense out of the plot in TPP and as a huge fan myself I appreciate that! I totally agree with what you two said and that's exactly how I feel! I still hope someone makes a Youtube video explaining the plot in all its details asap! I think TPP has a genius story! The more analysis I read regarding TPP's story the more I fall in love with the game! I didn't 100% the game yet (I'm reaching 80% soon) but I can't wait to finish everything! Every now and then I replay a story mission just to rewatch the cutscenes and remind myself of the awesome moments in the game!
I totally agree with the horror thing. After PT, I expect nothing less than perfection!As usual. Prime post
I hope that whatever Kojima does next he has the backup he wants, and the team to make it happen. I really would like him to get into horror. I think he would do amazing stuff.
SkylineRKR
Member
I think it was when I completely forgot about it already and had no desire to replay any of it ever.
Sank 50 hours into it and gameplay is spot on, but once I got all endings and noticed the final extreme missions are there for jack shit I was just done. Missions seems to have been random generated and cutscenes being randomly put inbetween a few. Game is suspicious.
RevolverRoden
Member
More cut content. wow.
This game is straight garbage.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Me? Right about when I was tailing that Paradise Lost Army guy.