That's because quiet is sniper wolf.
I'm being serious now,it's almost 90% sure that she knew that venom was not big boss and that's why she had a change of heart.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
That's because quiet is sniper wolf.
I'm being serious now,it's almost 90% sure that she knew that venom was not big boss and that's why she had a change of heart.
Kojima in a nutshell
thequickandthedead
Member
Just started playing the first Metal Gear. God this game is dull.
Roni
Gold Member
Go nuts! There are no facts, only interpretations.
Yea... not very good games. I am sure it was innovative when they came out. but they don't hold up very well.
Hence the hype of a lot of people for MGSV to cover MG1 and possible MG2. Long shot.
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah, but it's not concerned with filling in all the blanks like some people are suggesting MGSV was obligated to do.
TPP was no obligated either... and Kojima actually tried to do that. Introduce another character to make sense of the saga.
The thing is.... Kojima clearly stated the game was about the downfall of BB. Several times.
This is the point.
Venom has his own story.
The player has his own story.
But somewhere in the middle, in-between both of them, there's the symbiotic space, this meeting point where we enact Venom's adventures just as much as he enables us. It was a great musing on the audience-as-actor nature of "the videogame".
It's the opposite idea from Bioshock and MGS2 which muse that the player's role doesn't matter, it's all scripted/set out anyway. MGSV doesn't take that meta-destiny look at it and instead just glares straight at how a player plays the game and how the in-game events relate to that. It's definitely more simple and relates less to the series' overall themes, but I felt it was a pretty profound, nice thing to say anyway. I had a warm fuzzy feeling when the game basically said: "It's all thanks to you, without you, there's no Big Boss, you made him real."
That does make sense, great idea - but what scene does she realise it in?
I'm really glad the tone of this thread/these threads is lightening and it's not just an infinite torrent of vitriolic hatred anymore.
God, OT1 wasn't fun.
The trailers said that - IIRC Koji himself never did?
There is a solid argument that BB's manipulation of Venom, up to where he is in the final Intrude Tape scene and is about to be killed by Solid Snake, is Big Boss's final turning point. Big Boss has finally fully abused someone else's life and exploited them for his own end. He already turned into a demon in PW when he was making nukes and shit, but then in TPP he finally exploits his own men to do the truest dirty work and influence history.
I don't necessarily 100% subscribe to that theory, but I think it checks out to a certain extent.
Roni
Gold Member
It could be, if you play the game like a maniac. Venom is Big Boss, no matter how many tears you all shed.
Kojima didn't lie.
Na... the actions of the players perhaps.. but the characters of Venom hardly fits the description of a maniac.
Maybe thats the issue. There is no clear distinction. Games that come to mind that did this well. Infamous, even when i didn't care for the story, at least the path of the character (evil and good) branch out nicely and there is a clear distinction. RDR as well.
https://youtu.be/alxN1i1GagM?t=278
"The missing link that completes the saga" sure many people have pointed out they would've preferred seeing Grey Fox, Sniper Wolf instead of randoms guys that become irrelevant once the game ends.
Kojami's words not the fans really, they promised X and delivered Y playing us like a fiddle in the process, so, Mission complete Boss!
Not that it was obligated to do so, that it promised it do so.
Roni
Gold Member
Game was huge enough 5 years weren't enough to make it. You wanted branching paths and, I'm assuming here, matching cutscenes with appropriately different performances? That was not going to happen. Best they could do was turn Snake into an empty vessel the player could fill with his opinions.
Kind of like when you start having dialogue with NPC's when playing a silent protagonist game.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It is just not directly. BB has become everything he hates: a manipulator.
Wait, really?
Well Kojima heavily suggested it will in trailers and interviews. "The missing link", "In outer heaven men become demons", teasing Solid snake, etc. Everyone is upset because kojima with his own words set everyone up for disappointment. It's not like everyone is getting the idea of this being the game that bridges the gap between MGS and MG1 on their own.
The game didn't promise anything. The game is just a game. Look at it on its own merits.
IIRC it was the non-Kojima videos which were all "THE MISSING LINK IN THE MGS SAGA." Koji didn't even sign off on that shit.
And even if he did, it doesn't matter. It's a classic Kojima troll to promise one thing in a trailer then do the complete opposite in the game.
You people (on the other side of the spectrum about the story) really make it hard not to go nuclear on your opinions with comments like these.
Kojima personally edited the launch trailer.
If your sole criteria is "kills a lot of bad guys" than it's time for Punished Mario and Venom Donkey Kong
Well the times he did that before it was a good swerve. This swerve is just "you're not really Big Boss"
It's just so classic Kojima.
Did all the trailers say that? The only one I remember explicitly saying it was the horrible non-Kojima one.
I could be wrong, but links would be cool.
Wouldn't this have been a lot better... if we saw him become that throughout an entire game instead of being told at the end?
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
5:10. Actually, looking again, it's the other side of the mirror, the reflection's the same.
Same difference.
Wouldn't it be even better if it turned out that everything we knew was a lie and it was us, the player themselves, who he was manipulating?
Yea.. i can see that... but a more traditional take, or at least a fleshed out characters, not even VS.. but everyone else, would have helped in this regard.
Also, this kind of debate is where that whole is Nathan Drake a mass murderer/righteous comes to play. Gameplay aside, VS is pretty shallow.
With no wrap up at the end, except for a cutscene where BB tells you you are me and i am you... how is that good storytelling?
The real manipulator is Kojima. As he has stated that he tries to betray gamers expectations at all times.
Alright.... i'll bite. I understand the manipulation... but how is this to be a big impact when its presented as is? and even when it is presented in a tape, how does the story hold up on its own? All the explanations TPP has rely on lust for revenge, parasites x100 and phantoms. not even in a smart way, they just keep repeating those until they feel like the player has no other choice but to believe it.
Yeah, but that's not even a swerve, arguably. To put that in other words, you could say, "Big Boss became a true demon by manipulating a person into building an army for him then getting that person killed. Oh yeah, you play that person. Who thinks he's Big Boss."
Nah Kojima didn't ever do anything like this with trailers. Look at mgs3/4 trailers they're pretty straight forward. MGS2 is the only comparable thing and he never said anything like THE MISSING LINK TO SOLID SNAKE'S STORY. It was promised as a sequel to MGS1 and it was just had a different main character.
As far as the trailers go like I said they're all kojima edited except the gamescom one.
Roni
Gold Member
Oh, you mad Kojima misled you with marketing content?
In retrospect it should've been pretty clear Big Boss was never gonna be portrayed killing children. It was always going to be something that would leave at least a respectable margin for anyone to challenge the notion that Snake was a villain.
In the end, it was exactly that. Big Boss' villany is left ambiguous and wide open for anyone to project whatever they bring to this game.
That's a valid opinion, man...
Then what is the point of this game when MGS3 did this and a much better job as well.
Roni
Gold Member
Gameplay, gameplay, gameplay... Thank you for your $60.
He's deep, but it's dealt with in a very subtle way. Ah, I can't even be bothered re-typing this. Go back a few pages or look earlier in my post history
we've covered this so many times.Basically:
> Medic worked his way up through MSF MB ranks to be near-best soldier (not far off BB and trained directly under him)
> close with Boss etc. is an experienced, talented soldier trained to be subservient (like all soldiers)
> gives his life to save boss in the Ground Zero crash
> goes into a coma, then an extended coma through medication. spends 9 years being hypnotised and manipulated into learning all of Big Boss's memories, experiences and beliefs
> wakes up with someone else's face - BB's
> subconsciously knows something is wrong. This is clear from all of his behaviour. Silent. Unsure of self. Has an uncanny sense that things aren't right.
> whenever Kaz or Ocelot are around, he defers to them all the time. His training around how to handle superiors is still ingrained
> but becomes assertive when it's stuff he experiences directly after Wake Up - Skullface, Quiet, etc. anything in the past/BB's timeline (eg Volgin, Eli, Huey, Boss AI) he is no good at handling
Compare this to when you see Big Boss in the last scene and he's assertive, intelligent, humorous and decisive. I think it's very cleverly written - even though the cleverness is in the lack of writing.
I'm going to have to bow out of this thread soon, because I'm tired of repeating myself. No slight against you, it's just we had this exact discussion about 10-20 pages ago and the people on your side of the fence conceded after we covered all this and we moved onto other topics!
Yeah but did any of those kojima trailers explicitly say it was the missing link for the saga?
I know the GC one did but that wasn't him. I'm trying to look for evidence where Kojima actually said it was the missing link or anything. IIRC he only ever said the 'become a demon' line.
I'm off to bed, will reply in morning.
Roni
Gold Member
He's deep, but it's dealt with in a very subtle way. Ah, I can't even be bothered re-typing this. Go back a few pages or look earlier in my post history
Basically:
> Medic worked his way up through MSF MB ranks to be near-best soldier (not far off BB and trained directly under him)
> close with Boss etc. is an experienced, talented soldier trained to be subservient (like all soldiers)
> gives his life to save boss in the Ground Zero crash
> goes into a coma, then an extended coma through medication. spends 9 years being hypnotised and manipulated into learning all of Big Boss's memories, experiences and beliefs
> wakes up with someone else's face - BB's
> subconsciously knows something is wrong. This is clear from all of his behaviour. Silent. Unsure of self.
> whenever Kaz or Ocelot are around, though, he defers to them all the time. His training around how to handle superiors is still ingrained
> is only assertive when it's stuff he experiences directly after Wake Up - Skullface, Quiet, etc. anything in the past/BB's timeline (eg Volgin, Eli, Huey, Boss AI) he is no good at handling
Compare this to when you see Big Boss in the last scene and he's assertive, intelligent, humorous and decisive. I think it's very cleverly written - even though the cleverness is in the lack of writing.
I'm going to have to bow out of this thread soon, because I'm tired of repeating myself. No slight against you, it's just we had this exact discussion about 10-20 pages ago and the people on your side of the fence conceded after we covered all this and we moved onto other topics!
You're not gonna convince them...
I don't think there's anything ambiguous about it. He sacrificed his best soldier -- his identity, his memories, and eventually his life -- to achieve his own ends and protect himself. Big Boss' downfall is brought full circle: what he hated the Philosophers for doing to The Boss he ended up doing exactly the same to Venom.
Ahab's manipulated transformation into Venom Snake is the downfall of Big Boss.
Disappointment is cool as long as it's Kojima.
What an amazingly lax standard he's managed.
No xD
So what is your opinion on the story now that you have finished it? You were raving about how good it was prior to beating it, but now that it's done I'd like to know if your opinion on it changed.
It's funny how so many people are ok with this now. I mean, I loved MGS2 from the start myself, but I remember so many being really pissed off with the Raiden bait-and-switch.
Roni
Gold Member
Not enough, the haters needed to see BB pulling teeth, raping and pillaging in order to hammer the point home.
Please tell me where I said 'Disappointment is cool'?
I didn't say it was a good or a bad thing. I just said 'it's classic Kojima'.
For your information, I am not cool with it (particularly if other people are right here re the Missing Link thing, which is likely). I meant what I said in a critical way. I've detested how Kojima handled narratives in most of his games, including MGSV. I just think some aspects are worth praising (like in all of the games) and I'm fighting their corner.
Reebot you just... You just need to step back. Your posts all feel like thinly veiled shitposts at this point.
Did he edit that one? I didn't think he did.
Fair enough if so.
He's deep, but it's dealt with in a very subtle way. Ah, I can't even be bothered re-typing this. Go back a few pages or look earlier in my post history
Basically:
> Medic worked his way up through MSF MB ranks to be near-best soldier (not far off BB and trained directly under him)
> close with Boss etc. is an experienced, talented soldier trained to be subservient (like all soldiers)
> gives his life to save boss in the Ground Zero crash
> goes into a coma, then an extended coma through medication. spends 9 years being hypnotised and manipulated into learning all of Big Boss's memories, experiences and beliefs
> wakes up with someone else's face - BB's
> subconsciously knows something is wrong. This is clear from all of his behaviour. Silent. Unsure of self.
> whenever Kaz or Ocelot are around, though, he defers to them all the time. His training around how to handle superiors is still ingrained
> is only assertive when it's stuff he experiences directly after Wake Up - Skullface, Quiet, etc. anything in the past/BB's timeline (eg Volgin, Eli, Huey, Boss AI) he is no good at handling
Compare this to when you see Big Boss in the last scene and he's assertive, intelligent, humorous and decisive. I think it's very cleverly written - even though the cleverness is in the lack of writing.
I'm going to have to bow out of this thread soon, because I'm tired of repeating myself. No slight against you, it's just we had this exact discussion about 10-20 pages ago and the people on your side of the fence conceded after we covered all this and we moved onto other topics!
Yeah but did any of those kojima trailers explicitly say it was the missing link for the saga?
I know the GC one did but that wasn't him. I'm trying to look for evidence where Kojima actually said it was the missing link or anything. IIRC he only ever said the 'become a demon' line.
I'm off to bed, will reply in morning.
Alright. i see that. But all those traits are established but how does his character develop during tpp? The only time you see some type of change is with Paz, and that whole bit was truly a good piece of work. It was smart, it made sense by the time it wrapped up and it told something about the Medic. Not in direct relation to the player.
So which one is it? you really can't have it both. VS is either the medic or the player. Trying to have them both just creates inconsistencies.
Anyways... the game is static. Nothing really develops over time, and characters don't transcend or fall, and the ones that are hinted that do is outside of the game.
Huey is an asshole. Stays an asshole.
Kaz is upset... he stays upset.
Ocellot is just... there.
Zero, at least with him you get some insight on his motives.
Skullface... flat character that is just mad?
Eli... just a brat. Doesn't even expand on why it is that he hates BB.
Paz... pretty cool arch that develops.
Quiet.... interesting character that does show some development.
DD... at least grows up to be a dog.
Codetalker.... flat character that likes hamburgers and parasites.
hmmm.... i forget who else. lol.
Sorry.. but i don't get this attitude.
This forum is a place to discuss ideas and the game in general. So how is that bad? I respect you guys opinion and i have turned around to see many things maybe i was not aware of and learned to recognize that. Interpretation, specially in a game like this, is heavy, and its interesting to discuss it.
Dunno whats with this "eh forget it" comment.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I wonder if there's a timeline for MGO... Since you can actually play as your avatar (Ahab or... John since that's his default name I guess), it would be sort of interesting that if MGO was basically pre-GZ and basically where Venom became the top soldier.
D-Dog confirmed to have the most character development in MGSV.
You are above even a puppy. I hereby award you the title of Big Dog.
His villainy really isn't ambiguous, the only thing he didn't do was laugh maniacally at the camera.
lol. you guys know what i was going for. hahaha thats what i get for typing in between tasks at work.
Roni
Gold Member
Not if you consider the amount of people who didn't get the fact he turned evil here.