There isn't any reason to assume his appearance was altered. But lets all be nice and say Solid Snake was focused on getting out of dodge by that point and a fight to the death isn't the best time to question physical oddities.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
There isn't any reason to assume his appearance was altered. But lets all be nice and say Solid Snake was focused on getting out of dodge by that point and a fight to the death isn't the best time to question physical oddities.
Roni
Gold Member
That's a valid opinion...
Paying attention would have made you realize Zero was pretty much brain dead by 1984. He was a vegetal in 2014.
Sure, pal. That's a valid opinion...
Yeah, MGS3 is pretty much on the same boat when you start questioning the relevance of title-specific threads in the games.
No we don't, unless he's stupid enough to be wearing a Diamong Dogs patch on his left arm when Outer Heaven is around. It should be on his right arm after DD is closed and turned into Outer Heaven.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Its possible his vision is just extremely fucked up. Not completely blind but close to it.
It's never made clear what exactly is going on with his eyes because you're right that he doesn't act blind for most of the game. The only explanation I can come up with is some daredevil like shit lol.
ugh...Thanks Kojima.
Is there anything he didn't fuck up in the story? Everything is shallow, serves really no point in the story, and without many of the bits the story would still not work or have any major impact. He must've had someone overlooking his story, no?
Seriously... this game.... the phantom pain is all about feeling loss... i am just angry at it.
Kaz took some parasites to the eyes in Afghanistan and now he's Daredevil, fuck it lets go with that.
lol. at least this makes more sense. Someone send a tweet to Kojima explaining how this is now Canon, since he failed to do his job properly.
Haha, he just really wanted this Venom twist and didn't care how he got there.
Its not even a good twist.
Berserker976
Member
My point with the Zero thing is that the parasite explanation is unnecessary. We didn't need an explanation as to why Zero was all gross and shit at the end of MGS4. He was over 100 years old at that point, it's not a stretch to imagine he wouldn't be in super great shape.
MGS1, 2, and 3 all work together fine. MGS4 is where I start having some issues, but MGSV is just on another level entirely.
If Venom had gotten his horn removed (something the doctor said was completely impossible), or if he had gotten a prosthetic arm, they would have indicated as much, or at least hinted at it. They didn't. It's a plot hole.
And even if he looked exactly like the real Big Boss, he would still act very different, based on what we see in TPP.
Kaz is hiding something, probably about himself, the turn he takes after Episode 31 and Code Talker's warning you get at the same time, obviously something is suspicious about his eyes, I wasn't bothered by it, he can clearly see people around him in some way, but objects like Shibani's necklace he had to feel around for, so his vision is seriously impaired but it's still good enough to get around.
Miller in MGS1 isn't even Miller, so I don't really have any problems with the canon side of things.
Given the fact there are still cutscenes people assumed were cut but were later told are still in the game, who even knows what's going on.
Overall I disagree with some of Kojima's presentation or method of communication in TPP, but as someone who got into MGS 15+ years ago, I've been having a good time with the story.
Miller in MGS1 isn't even Miller, so I don't really have any problems with the canon side of things.
Given the fact there are still cutscenes people assumed were cut but were later told are still in the game, who even knows what's going on.
Overall I disagree with some of Kojima's presentation or method of communication in TPP, but as someone who got into MGS 15+ years ago, I've been having a good time with the story.
I am pretty sure Kojima doesn't know either.
There is a big difference in narrative not telling you everything, but all of it is justified in the characters and the story. Even if its a glimpse you get, you can make more sense of what is going on if you pay attention. Here.. its just a guess... no one really has a definitive answer, because it just doesn't make much sense.
Technically he does... BB sends Solid to Outer Heaven in MG1.
Well yeah...but it wasn't planned that way.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Uh... really? I didn't know that. Where do we find that out?
Roni
Gold Member
To you and people who share your perspective. Wasn't for me because of reasons I've already mentioned.
That's a valid opinion, man.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Okay, but how many of the innumerable characters who declared Big Boss their personal savior met Big Boss and how many met his kind, innocent, tragic, friend-of-all-animals counterpart Venom Snake?
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Sniper Wolf was on the fence but then she met D-Dog and knew she was home.
Roni
Gold Member
Open to your interpretation.
Yeah, but that doesn't exactly carry a lot of emotional punch to me. Like it doesn't feel like the story really bothered to dwell on that too much and it's like...eh. I feel like the twist would have worked better if it happened midgame and they built on it from that point on, with characters reacting to it and being like "Wow, I don't know how to feel about following a legend instead of a person."
Plus...well, we play an entire game as Venom and dude is basically a non-entity despite his importance in the timeline(having faced Snake and lost). And as you said, the twist reveals more about BB than Venom and...well, BB is basically nobody during Phantom Pain, so I don't feel particularly connected to him as a character.
It's not like I hate the twist or anything, it's just that it fell completely flat on me and drew like zero reaction out of me. Can't say whether that's on me or the game, but that's just how I feel about it. I like a lot of the implications of the twist, but I don't think the story properly builds up or reflects on it in a way to give it significant emotional impact, so I personally end up pretty indifferent to it.
Still love the game though.
Inferno313
Banned
I like how the Ground Zeroes teaser slogan of "From Fox, two phantoms were born." originally sounded like it was talking about Liquid and Solid. When it's actually talking about Skullface and Venom Snake.
Berserker976
Member
Well the timing matches up pretty well, and:
That's exactly Sniper Wolf's backstory.
The lack of connection is because everything important to the story happens outside of TPP. Everything happens in tapes, or just implied. You don't get to directly relate to all the events that make a big difference, so there is no real impact.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
So, it's not explicitly stated...?
Christ, man! Don't freak me out like that, I thought my Lore Fu was weak for a second. XD
Totally reasonable assumption, but still an assumption. It could easily have been her meeting Venom, an equally reasonable assumption. Alas we'll never know.
Remember that mission with those old MSF soldiers that attacked DD? Kaz said that they were misinformed about the attack 9 years ago..well it turns out that they were right about BB leaving his comrades to die so he could run away.
#MosquitoWasRight
Replaying the game with some knowledge about the plot really changes your perspective imo.
#MosquitoWasRight
Replaying the game with some knowledge about the plot really changes your perspective imo.
Berserker976
Member
Well, I was going to use this quote from Wikipedia:
But the sources it listed were dead links.
One thing I do genuinely like is the idea that Big Boss was a huge prick who went kinda crazy after Peace Walker/Ground Zeroes and that Venom Snake was the super nice soldier guy. Really wish they went over the top with this, like showing Venom being this ridiculous Christ-like figure, then cutting to some of the shit Big Boss is pulling off camera while living off Venom's fame.
That's probably a fair way to put it. Kinda annoyed because I normally love stories that are mostly implied and you have to work to understand what happened, but it feels kind of out of place in a series like this. Well, I'll just assume that's just on me instead of criticizing the game too much.
That's probably a fair way to put it. Kinda annoyed because I normally love stories that are mostly implied and you have to work to understand what happened, but it feels kind of out of place in a series like this. Well, I'll just assume that's just on me instead of criticizing the game too much.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Hmmm. Not sure she went into quite that much detail in MGS, especially the dates, so I'm not sure where they got that info...
I think she's somewhere in her 20s during MGS and was definitely born after 1974-1975. Shadow Moses happened in 2005 so... She still could've met Venom rather than Big Boss.
EDIT:
Not sure how accurate this is since the Big Boss stuff in it is completely wrong now, but the MGS official strategy guide says she was born in 1983 and met Big Boss in 1991.
I'm such a node...
I love that too... stories that don't hand hold or just blab exposition for the sake of explaining something. But TPP doesn't do this. From Kojima justifying or presenting themes by having characters say the words "Parasites, Revenge, Lust, Race... etc" doesn't make the story deep. The bits that he really did have to pay attention he just left out or put it in a tape. I think the idea of hte game is there, but the beats are all over the place, and the characters being weak to start makes it really hard to make it all tie together.
Each character in the story should have a very well defined personality. Even if Kojima wants to make a statement that there is no black and white evil or opposite.
The start of TPP has the quote of "Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which is is stored than to anything on which it is poured".
This is the first indication that you are about to play as Venom... anger... but VS is just more good than anything. Doesn't help that he is a mute either... if his lines actually had impact, then it would make sense, but you leave his lines out and it doesn't really make any difference and the lines that you think will carry some theme end up in nothing.
Biggest line is when he says that when the time comes he will pull the trigger and kill Quiet. But that goes no where. Whats the point of the line? I think Kojima likes to write epic lines for trailers. Because in context they don't carry much weight.
Anyways... what are the defined character traits of the rest?
Ocellit is just there... he the source of information... but he has no character, unlike in other MGS games.
Kaz is just angry... so is the game anger quote referring to Kaz? Or BB? or VS?
Codetalker... he is old and likes to rant about parasites. But what is his trait?
I mean.. you have to dig really deep to find what defines each character and their motive. I guess in that respect, maybe Skullface does a better job... but he is a laughable Villain.
Anyways... in short... motives are not apparent or easily recognized. Leaving everything on tapes is a bad move as it creates no attachment.. and everything is in layers that really make it more confusing than it should be. I am pretty sure Kojima thinks this adds layers of meaning and makes his story smarter. But in a lot of ways, it detracts from the experience.
I wonder... If Venom had emotions and lines in cutscenes / gameplay, would it change your opinion of the game*? (everything else the same)
I most likely wouldnt have noticed the twist until the end.
*Meant to say story, the game is great as is, I would get rid of most heli cutscenes and add a bit more life to the open world / MB but that's it.
I most likely wouldnt have noticed the twist until the end.
*Meant to say story, the game is great as is, I would get rid of most heli cutscenes and add a bit more life to the open world / MB but that's it.
If this was the case, at least you would form some sense of opinion or understanding of the character. Creating an impression. Leading to liking or disliking the character based on something. Right now.. as is....VS is just a shell.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Isn't that the point?
Beat Mission 46 last night. Woah dang.
After listening to all the tapes, I'm a bit confused about one plot point from the "Secret Recording of Skull Face and
After listening to all the tapes, I'm a bit confused about one plot point from the "Secret Recording of Skull Face and
Zero": It sounded like Skull Face managed to kill Zero prior to Phantom Pain, so who is that at the end of MGS4 in the wheelchair? Unless I interpreted that incorrectly.
And based on the original Japanese, it really doesn't. It's "種", i.e. "species".
He's anime blind. If you're a badass, that's never really a handicap. Might actually turn into a superpower.
Zero is in the vegetative state at 4 because of Skullface.
Hmmm... you had me thinking there for a min. I think its the point, yes. But it doesn't hold up because the story and arch by themselves don't work. If you were invested in the happenings and occurrences of the game, then there is a chance you might be more attached to what happens at the end, with VS being a shell. But right now.. its just a slate on which Kojima can have his talk to "the player" a la mgs2. All for effect, not taking into consideration the big picture of the story.
Very well said. The twist is in there for the last speech in the game by big boss. No other reason.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
The beginning of TPP has that Mark Twain quote? Mine had the "our mother tongue is our true fatherland" quote.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Check this out. Big Boss spying on you in the hospital.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNUqrSbddM&spfreload=10
Ok, so he wasn't killed, just turned into a vegetable essentially. Well damn.
Berserker976
Member
lol, I was just reading the same thing I think. It also says she returned to his side in 1996, a year after Venom is killed. Not saying I'd put it past Kojima to retcon it, but it seems likely that Sniper Wolf interacted with the real Big Boss.
Either way though, the point still stands that in terms of established events, there's little room for Venom to have made an impact. And hell, even if he did, we didn't see it, and we didn't play it.
Haunted
Member
It's a retcon, so there's actually no trace of them in MGS3.
Oldest Snake
Member
This defense doesn't hold up when the 'shell' in question is rescuing child soldiers to live on his oil rig, letting men bleed to death after being crushed by falling machinery, executing 25+ soldiers in his army to prevent the spread of infection and rubbing the ashes of his fallen comrades on his face as some bizarre ritual of respect.
These are fairly extreme actions, and I've never come close to doing any of them. I'm certainly not that Big Boss.
We, the players, can either 'be' Big Boss- legendary soldier and fulton-extraordinaire or Big Boss can be the guy who shows a hint of personality that never really goes anywhere because he's virtually silent and THEN goes on to do exactly what we all thought Big Boss did anyway, which is ACTUALLY what defines him in the MGS canon.
The Witcher 3 shows you can make players role-play as a very well defined character and still achieve success, and Bioshock showed that you can attribute all the players actions to your writing without making them feel seperate from the character they're playing as, but you can't do both at the same time- and certainly not if you half-arse the writing of the former to make way for the latter.
MGSV shows Kojima wanted to have his cake and eat it to.
+10
You said it well.
Its one of the reasons that Geralt in TW3 works so well. He is true to his character. Heck.. even Raiden is his own well defined character.
The Witcher did so well in in giving you choices within the scope of Geralt's personality.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I gotta admit: I was pretty invested.
It's not the best story and I think that's primarily a pacing issue. Kojima has, for all intents and purposes, put the control of that in the player's hands and that may have been his biggest mistake. Not everyone will have a good experience. He was trying to do something new and may not have had as good handle on the non-linear form as he did the straighter narrative. I'm glad he tried though.
I think it also says Big Boss was in Africa in '64.
The fact is, it could be either. Both fit.
There's more wiggle room than you give it credit for, but I see what you're saying.
Raiden was a far more smarly written character than Venom Snake.
Despite being a clearly defined character he is relatable to the player in a smart way; he is a guy who is vicariously a hero through his virtual experiences. Through the act of playing a video game, like MGS2, you have something key in common with Raiden. The further meta-narrative of wanting to be like Snake is emphasised more if the player tells the game they played MGS1 (with things like Raiden using the codename 'Snake' in the intro), otherwise it is primarily about the value of virtual experiences.
Venom Snake works for a more specific person. Someone who wants to be like Big Boss, someone who has played most of the Metal Gear Solid games and are a fan of him. MGSV's meta-narrative works for players who, like Kojima, really like Big Boss, and not really for anyone else.
Despite being a clearly defined character he is relatable to the player in a smart way; he is a guy who is vicariously a hero through his virtual experiences. Through the act of playing a video game, like MGS2, you have something key in common with Raiden. The further meta-narrative of wanting to be like Snake is emphasised more if the player tells the game they played MGS1 (with things like Raiden using the codename 'Snake' in the intro), otherwise it is primarily about the value of virtual experiences.
Venom Snake works for a more specific person. Someone who wants to be like Big Boss, someone who has played most of the Metal Gear Solid games and are a fan of him. MGSV's meta-narrative works for players who, like Kojima, really like Big Boss, and not really for anyone else.
Na... has nothing to do with the pacing tbh. I am playing through Mad Max, and all the implied story and layout of the world itself are super interesting for those people that pay attention. I know more about the story behind the wasteland. I have glimpses of how it came to be, leaving me to imagine how it went down. Finding things that make sense, but surprise you when you find them. Not only that.. but every outpost in Mad Max, even when its reusing the same assets, is built so differently in a way that makes sense for the people inhabiting that area. Its so well done, that when you get missions, that are few btw. the story feels a lot more cohesive. Max doesn't really talk much, but does make comment on things that help add context.
All of this never happens in TPP.
ALL major events in TPP that have an impact on its outcome is never experiences. Everything is on tapes.
ALL major character traits or actions don't happen during the game. They happen outside of the game.
Dialogue is a hit or miss in the game. SO its hard to pin point which cutscenes are moving the story, and which are just there for fluff to make things look "cool". Like it was said before... VS puts ashes on his face as ritual for impact on the scene, not the story. Because that whole scene ends up in you having a small diamond on your shoulder. Thats it.
See what i am getting at? Pacing is not the issue. I actually thought chapter 1 had a coherent pacing that made sense for the format of the game. I like that through gameplay you create your own stories. But that doesn't help you move the main story arch forward does it?
I do want to state that i love MGSV... the gameplay is just so good. I still have reservations and think that a lot of things got cut down from their original scope, and would like the game to engage you more, specially for the target of hours you have to play the game. But its a new take, with new ideas that are very welcomed.
Its just a terrible MGS game.
This!!
Holy cow... i feel like Kojima. You guys say what i want to say smartly and in a compact paragraph. I go on and on and on with no sense of direction.