KyotoMecca
Member
Tim Rogers is an awful lot more interesting in real life than most other games journalists you could meet.
MGS 3 review by Tim Rogers on Insert Credit - Great read!
- Thread starter Lakitu
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TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
exoduster said:
First off I'd like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I never pretended to know you personally, everything that I've formulated has been a result of thoroughly following your articles from both IC, other outlets, and Game Developers itself (yes even *GASP* Gamasutra!). I've also met a couple of guys who have worked with you or have known you; you are after all very well known in some circles. I understand your concerns and why you're irritated but the fundamental issue is, that is how I feel when I read your work. Yes, contrary to popular beliefs I do actively follow you because I think you genuinely have interesting things to say and can sometimes be educational. What I wrote are my only grievances with you. I know this must blow your mind but I DO want you to be better, you're in a lucrative position and I feel you can do a much more professional job which would benefit the readers and your surroundings as well.
It isn't personal, just because I think your style is tiresome at times and has problems doesn't mean you aren't a great guy. Taking this as a personal attack is also something that shouldn't be done and immediately destroys any constructive efforts. I know you write from the heart and it's important for you but it has no reflection on your character.
I've read the entire article and I'm open to your interpretation of it. In retrospect I might have been too hasty in coming up with my own conclusion but the statement is rather transparent. I also find it sad that it's become rare for you to find someone who says something meaningful about game design. I don't know the situation but I'd imagine the level of frustration you must feel. I don't know how much time you spend with developers/designers but everyone has something interesting to say and always provide me important insight to how I can become better at designing games. It might sound overly optimistic but it's the truth. Maybe it's because you're a journalist and they feel you don't truly understand (I've seen this happen all the time) but having a pro developer lecture a young fool such as myself is a wonderful experience which is always filled with new things to learn (even after ALL these years). Whether it's at E3, GDC, CES, or even the new Games Synergy Summit I've never met someone who doesn't have something new to say.exoduster said:
:lol You haven't read his previous thoughts on Tim, this is tame compared to when he goes into rant mode (which seems to be weekly lately).exoduster said:
If that's the case I'd love for him to show that more often. How Tim handle's his articles can be debated to hell but the fundamental problem is: "Less Tim more content".exoduster said:
Ok I'm done with this thread, I'm moving on. I hope you can take this criticism and learn from it. If you have anything else you wish to say or comment on than this could easily be done through e-mail (PM me) and I'd be more than happy to chat with you about it. I now know how Disco Stu feels, no more commentary on journalism, ugh.
i dunno. he's a fun guy, but there are scads of cool people at ZD. well, less so after a couple rounds of layoffs, but you'd undoubtedly be surprised. every pub has cool guys and gals. even IGN!KyotoMecca said:
hell, i met someone from gamepro last night because his band was opening for the one i went to see. and that magazine has zero personality.
every good writer of fiction has to be a little psychotic. it's a collusive art by nature. i have no idea whether he's clinically such.Drinky Crow said:
ironically i find the most deluded people involved in this discussion to be the "game journalists" sounding off on the proper method of covering a video game story. dudes, you're covering entertainment news. if your aim is to give factual (yep hip and edgy) accounts of "video game news", you're no better than a tape recorder (or an episode of entertainment tonight, and none more interesting. i respect people like exodus here and crazy tim more than i respect the highly paid editors of our commercial periodicals for the simple fact that they aspire to think, no matter what it is they're writing. even drinky, who builds up complex and amusing but often puzzling systems of thought just to get around to playing a game, is more interesting than you maggo types.
for what it's worth, those of us who are both intelligent and engaged in the business are aware of what our jobs are. you have to develop a philosophy that you can get behind -- i did, anyway -- to make it worth the doing. hell, i've used the "entertainment tonight defense" ON MY OWN BEHALF whenever people bring up the spurious argument that video game journalism "isn't jorunalism" and then hold up examples of investigative reporting to compare it against.
the relative philosophy which guided publications like XBN and GMR was "gaming is fucking cool. you like it, we like it, and let's try and show you it in a way you hadn't quite thought about it before." it meshes the rogersian metacriticism with plain ol' gamefanish fanboyism and the EGM-ish slick glibness ... and in the case of those two mags, it worked out quite well, methinks.
i have no problem with IC existing or doing what it does. i don't read it a hell of a lot but that has a ton more to do with the fact that i don't give a shit about doujin shooters OR the gigantic issues arising from MGS3. on my own time, i'm an RPG fanboy, and on paid time i'm a commercial games journalist with my own philosophy and job requirements. makes the whole IC thing sorta sub-relevant, sadly.
the relative philosophy which guided publications like XBN and GMR was "gaming is fucking cool. you like it, we like it, and let's try and show you it in a way you hadn't quite thought about it before." it meshes the rogersian metacriticism with plain ol' gamefanish fanboyism and the EGM-ish slick glibness ... and in the case of those two mags, it worked out quite well, methinks.
i have no problem with IC existing or doing what it does. i don't read it a hell of a lot but that has a ton more to do with the fact that i don't give a shit about doujin shooters OR the gigantic issues arising from MGS3. on my own time, i'm an RPG fanboy, and on paid time i'm a commercial games journalist with my own philosophy and job requirements. makes the whole IC thing sorta sub-relevant, sadly.
am i imagining, or am i IMAGINEERING???jooey said:
oh, and i guess my point was just that reporting on video games holds very little social value in a strict sense, hence video game journalism is a bit of a mischaracterization. it seems to me that there's very little in the way of truth dissemination in reporting on video games (outside of the industry publications which read more like journals or are, in fact journals), so the only value i can really see in the endeavor comes from judicious (or creative) use of thought in a study of games, something i've seen come from very few places (and i'm not even saying IC is one of them).
it may just be that i'm expecting too much of a hobby, but when there are people whose livelihoods depend on producing this stuff, i almost feel like the community is done a disservice by the body of works that exist.
FINALFANTASYDOG
Member
WHEE!!! Just so ffd can get in on the intellectual commenting since I always like, at the very least, pretending to be a fanboy of the person everybody's bashing and hey in this situation I actually know Tim, so opportunity gained! oh, and to be on even ground, I haven't read the MGS3 piece either(my A.D.D generally gets the best of me and trouble is found finishing Roger pieces)
My initial contact with Tim was sending him the stupidest flame(it was rather delightful actually) ,on his mgs2 article, that I've ever written, since then everything I've seen of Tim In RL has been extremely good-natured and kind towards other people, even to the point where he drives himself down to build up other people. Tim doesn't do a "well, yes that's quite dandy, but Ive done so much better" thing that I typically see in egoists, he tells them he could really use their help and gives them some role to play. I've seen him do this with people's music to drawings to writing, some stuff that I honestly thought was rather not so good. Note: This doesn't apply if you've already established yourself a pretty large place in whatever field it is your good at.
Yeah!, Hooray on people not getting absurd jokes! If you want real superiority complex look at the fun things some other people do. Watch them talk about how crappy it is they let in E.B. employees to E3, and that those E.B. guys just sit and play games and ooh arent writing for millions of people. Yet look! look young boy! see those exact same journalists get in on industry only days as press, when they are going for a site that probably gets less readership then an average E.B. employee influences people in a store! Hypocrisy fun! Tim, on the other hand will take an EB employee he just met, an E.B. person who seems to know his stuff, and ask if the E.B. guy can help Tim interview a gaming legend.
(Start playing nice sappy changing of the tide music here) Sure, I don't think I've ever really seen Tim carry on more then a 5-line two-way conversation with anybody besides Brandon and I'm still quite astounded by the fact that he'll go and lie to me in person(when it's just us two) about things that we did in the past for no particular reason, as if he can somehow implant a different memory of the experience into my mind. But W. T. F. people, Tim isn't out there to just piss you off, stop taking his writing so seriously, he sure doesnt.
And hey worst case scenario he's being honest with his superiority at least with Tim you feel like you're looked down upon the equally with the rest of the Human Race.
Partial credit goes to Drew Cosner (Now my Brutha, before that engaging in whispering unfriendly things about me) for his succinct drunken rowdiness, which brought me to the light on this issue.
TOO LONG, DIDNT READ.
My initial contact with Tim was sending him the stupidest flame(it was rather delightful actually) ,on his mgs2 article, that I've ever written, since then everything I've seen of Tim In RL has been extremely good-natured and kind towards other people, even to the point where he drives himself down to build up other people. Tim doesn't do a "well, yes that's quite dandy, but Ive done so much better" thing that I typically see in egoists, he tells them he could really use their help and gives them some role to play. I've seen him do this with people's music to drawings to writing, some stuff that I honestly thought was rather not so good. Note: This doesn't apply if you've already established yourself a pretty large place in whatever field it is your good at.
Yeah!, Hooray on people not getting absurd jokes! If you want real superiority complex look at the fun things some other people do. Watch them talk about how crappy it is they let in E.B. employees to E3, and that those E.B. guys just sit and play games and ooh arent writing for millions of people. Yet look! look young boy! see those exact same journalists get in on industry only days as press, when they are going for a site that probably gets less readership then an average E.B. employee influences people in a store! Hypocrisy fun! Tim, on the other hand will take an EB employee he just met, an E.B. person who seems to know his stuff, and ask if the E.B. guy can help Tim interview a gaming legend.
(Start playing nice sappy changing of the tide music here) Sure, I don't think I've ever really seen Tim carry on more then a 5-line two-way conversation with anybody besides Brandon and I'm still quite astounded by the fact that he'll go and lie to me in person(when it's just us two) about things that we did in the past for no particular reason, as if he can somehow implant a different memory of the experience into my mind. But W. T. F. people, Tim isn't out there to just piss you off, stop taking his writing so seriously, he sure doesnt.
And hey worst case scenario he's being honest with his superiority at least with Tim you feel like you're looked down upon the equally with the rest of the Human Race.
Partial credit goes to Drew Cosner (Now my Brutha, before that engaging in whispering unfriendly things about me) for his succinct drunken rowdiness, which brought me to the light on this issue.
TOO LONG, DIDNT READ.
FINALFANTASYDOG said:
This is pretty tangential, and seems pointed at me. I've made the argument, yes, that -- on the retail end -- E3 access should be restricted to those directly concerned with purchasing and advertising, and that store clerks generally fall outside that definition. It's definitely a topic worthy of discussion, but probably not in this thread.
I have no problems with Tim Rogers. I don't know the man. My concern with his work revolves solely around the fact that he seems unable to write game criticism without making himself the focus. And that, to my mind, is exclusionary and a little pretentious.
Anyway.
Well in the few bits of the article where he actually talks about the game, I actually agree with Rogers 100%. Well maybe 99%. All the menu shit is a step back from other MGS games, but I wouldn't want the healing, eating, and camo removed--the game just needs more quick select buttons.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
well, as far as i'm concerned , i can accept the whole "well, it's not really the truth ... but...." writting (because it's usually pretty damned entertaining) , but it's when you meet TR and then he sits there and says a number of things that aren't true and it becomes a case of "um... why do i have to bother listening to this???"
Nothing in his behaviour suggests that he is crazy. Drinking tabasco isn't a sign of craziness and the subject matter of the Half Man Half Biscuit song "Used to be the guitarist in Evil Gazebo" springs to mind as the perfict "Tim" character set up *but obviously 99% of GAF'ers have already figured out that "Tim" is a project rather than a person.
Nothing in his behaviour suggests that he is crazy. Drinking tabasco isn't a sign of craziness and the subject matter of the Half Man Half Biscuit song "Used to be the guitarist in Evil Gazebo" springs to mind as the perfict "Tim" character set up *but obviously 99% of GAF'ers have already figured out that "Tim" is a project rather than a person.