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[adamsapple]

Race to the bottom?

MS Rewards wins every time.

That rewards glitch over the weekend got me souped up till 2026.

 

[Topher]

That rewards glitch over the weekend got me souped up till 2026.

I should have risked it.

They already told them what they need to do. Just need it in contract.

 

[Vox Machina]

Ok so let's do the math (and I'll do you a favour here and select gamepass console instead of ultimate and in your view this is the "cheapest" way for you to access the game), for arguments sake let's say the game gets delisted in 5 years time. Oh and bonus points I'll freeze the price at today's price:

• $35 + (60 x $10.99) = $694.40

Vs

• A one time purchase of Forza Motorsport premium edition = $99.99

Look mum! Look! Look at how much money I'm saving with gamepass!

Bro if you buy Game Pass and only use it to play one game over a 5-year period that's on you.

 

[MarkMe2525]

The vast majority of gamers legitimately only play a handful of games though. Plenty of people exclusively play titles like Forza (and maybe a couple of racing games). But yeh, keep on trying to sell gamepass to them, they really need it.

Hey strawman, nice to meet you.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Based on how people have reacted to it being brought up, I don't think they want that warning.



The vast majority of gamers legitimately only play a handful of games though. Plenty of people exclusively play titles like Forza (and maybe a couple of racing games). But yeh, keep on trying to sell gamepass to them, they really need it.

Wait until they sell it to CoD players that ONLY play CoD. What a bargain!

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

Reread what you wrote.

These sub holders have to come up with creative ways to extract from every avenue as they can, because a standard flat sub fee is not sustainable. Especially when it cannibalizes sales, their words, not mine. If it becomes less and less sustainable for AAA bangers, then something has got to give, like internal docs discussing possibly removing day 1 first party, but they realize the PR fallout.

So again, something has to give, which will either impact the consumer with less AAA investment budgets, or avenues to extract out of the dum dums. Like $35 FOMO DLC packs.

The standard flat fee is sustainable at scale. In fact at larger scales it could become even more profitable than the standard B2P model.

I don't understand what's so hard to fathom about Gamepass subscribers gaining more value than what they pay over the year, and then dropping the sub in favour of going back to the B2P model when they no longer see the value.

When Microsoft releases games exclusively via Gamepass without the option to buy them, then I'll be worried. But as of right now, Gamepass expands consumer options and isn't mandatory.

 

[SportsFan581]

I just think the whole "buy DLC for a game you don't own" thing should be a fairly big "warning" on Gamepass or any sub service.

Conceptually it's up to the consumer to take the risk of not having access to something they bought at that point.

With the premium editions that include early access it's more about the early access for most buyers. They are willing to pay the $30 or $40 for the early access.

Not something I really find worth it, but as long as there are players willing to buy it I don't see anything wrong with developers providing that option. At least the benefit is more tangible than most of the junk included with the pricier versions. Seems more crazy to not offer the early access at this point because it has been proven that it is something that a sizable amount of gamers want.

 

[GHG]

Wait until they sell it to CoD players that ONLY play CoD. What a bargain!

The best bit is when those players end up purchasing DLC and microtransactions for a game they are renting.

Feel true value.

Hey strawman, nice to meet you.

If you're having visions of strawmen you ought to see someone about that.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Hey strawman, nice to meet you.

There have been plenty of strawmen in favor the past several pages alone in support of dum dum FOMO DLC extraction, where were you quoting them?

 

[IntentionalPun]

Yea but its pretty alpha to be able to show people you own dlc for a gam you cant access anymore, total flex move and lets people know your a real gamer imo.

Wut?

Why would you "show" anyone that? lol

Lots of people buy $100 seasons passes digitally and then never play a game again after a couple of months. Do they do that to "flex" and have a game in their library?

If you guys can't grasp how instead of doing that buying some DLC and paying for a sub works out better for some people, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm the type of person who mostly buys games that I will replay here and there for years, so the sub model just doesn't make sense for me personally, but it clearly works for lots of folks. Options aren't a bad thing.

 

[Vox Machina]

There have been plenty of strawmen in favor the past several pages alone in support of dum dum FOMO DLC extraction, where were you quoting them?

Against my better judgement I'll engage this childish argument. In what ways are the games on subscription services more apt to use FOMO in ways that the games in the B2P market are not?

 

[MarkMe2525]

The best bit is when those players end up purchasing DLC and microtransactions for a game they are renting.

Feel true value.



If you're having visions of strawmen you ought to see someone about that.

If your are insinuating I have ever done anything as you suggested, then frankly you are full of shit. So yes, after reading your response, I am definitely seeing strawmen.

 

[Topher]

Wut?

Why would you "show" anyone that? lol

Lots of people buy $100 seasons passes digitally and then never play a game again after a couple of months. Do they do that to "flex" and have a game in their library?

If you guys can't grasp how instead of doing that buying some DLC and paying for a sub works out better for some people, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm the type of person who mostly buys games that I will replay here and there for years, so the sub model just doesn't make sense for me personally, but it clearly works for lots of folks. Options aren't a bad thing.

He was kidding around

 

[SomeGit]

The best bit is when those players end up purchasing DLC and microtransactions for a game they are renting.

Feel true value.



If you're having visions of strawmen you ought to see someone about that.

This already happens, I know plenty of people who bought WZ1 skins and operators and can't access them anymore from September.

Again you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, plenty of examples where bought extras from full price game are not longer accessible today even if you bought the game.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Against my better judgement I'll engage this childish argument. In what ways are the games on subscription services more apt to use FOMO in ways that the games in the B2P market are not?

You literally applied it here,

What stops you from owning the game, should you want to?

Where did I ever say any of this, other than your strawman question to my comment you quoted?

Just intellectually dishonest framing, trying to put some onus on me.

 

[IntentionalPun]

He was kidding around

I am a very serious person.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I am a very serious person.

 

[Vox Machina]

You literally applied it here,

Where did I ever say any of this, other than your strawman question to my comment you quoted?

Just intellectually dishonest framing, trying to put some onus on me.

Unless I missed a post you're the one who brought FOMO into the mix. I'm just trying to understand how you think Game Pass or PS+ increase FOMO because, honestly, from where I'm sitting they seem to decrease it.

 

[IDappa]

Is it that hard for people to wrap their heads around people using gamepass as a demo platform and then buying games at a discounted price?. Shit I've bought more games this year than I have in quite some time. Some games I've bought are coming to gamepass, which I've had for years and will keep for years to come.

 

[GHG]

Again you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, plenty of examples where bought extras from full price game are not longer accessible today even if you bought the game.

Why is this a good thing exactly? Why does it require a defence?

If you want to see how bad things can and do get take a look at the iracing pricing model. And I say that as someone who once went down that rabbit hole.

I'm sure Microsoft are licking their lips considering how willingly people are to turn a blind eye. New suckers are born every day.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Is it that hard for people to wrap their heads around people using gamepass as a demo platform and then buying games at a discounted price?. Shit I've bought more games this year than I have in quite some time. Some games I've bought are coming to gamepass, which I've had for years and will keep for years to come.

Apparently you don't own it, just a license they can revoke at any time, mate. Sorry to be the bearer of bad second hand news.

 

[GHG]

Unless I missed a post you're the one who brought FOMO into the mix. I'm just trying to understand how you think Game Pass or PS+ increase FOMO because, honestly, from where I'm sitting they seem to decrease it.

The FOMO aspect comes from the "early access" that comes with the DLC and is not available via gamepass.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Nope. The CMA disagrees, hence why they paused the cat and told MS to divest their cloud gaming in the UK.

The CMA are an evidence based regulator, and as Cardwell's TV interview with sky news, today - to publicly communicate to the CAT judge - she stated the block still remains and they have no evidence of a new proposal. And even if they do have a verbal agreement with Microsoft, the CAT judge has now made it his conditional sign off on the evidence that changes the CMA position, so no, as it stands your statement is wrong, both for the CMA, and - more importantly - the CAT.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Software sales are not up to standard on Xbox because of Gamepass, and Xbox sales are where they at despite Gamepass. Clearly despite all the effort fans put into selling the service, it's taking MS a 80B investment on it to salvage their strategy.

And the fact remains that as Xbox the console continues to turn into nothing more than a GP vehicle, third parties who want to make big games will rely more and more on other platforms.

 

[Vox Machina]

The FOMO aspect comes from the "early access" that comes with the DLC and is not available via gamepass.

Early Access is available in the same format for both Game Pass and B2P markets. Game Pass Ultimate subs even get a discount on it.

As far as the concept of Early Access I just see that as a way to make games cost what they should cost ($60 games launched with the Xbox 360 in 2005, thats ~$95 adjusted for inflation).

 

[GHG]

Early Access is available in the same format for both Game Pass and B2P markets. Game Pass Ultimate subs even get a discount on it.

As far as the concept of Early Access I just see that as a way to make games cost what they should cost ($60 games launched with the Xbox 360 in 2005, thats ~$95 adjusted for inflation).

This is the very definition of playing yourself.

 

[Vox Machina]

This is the very definition of playing yourself.

So why is Early Access used in the B2P markets?

 

[MarkMe2525]

The FOMO aspect comes from the "early access" that comes with the DLC and is not available via gamepass.

This viewpoint applies to all games with early access included with DLC, what does gamepass have to with it? Is the argument that gamepass should include the DLC to all the titles hosted on the service?

 

[PaintTinJr]

They don't represent all customers in the 'high end console market', and they themselves have signed on agreements related to the acquisition already.

The CMA, FTC, EU etc's job is to be the watch dog for the consumers, not corporations.

They are the "Competition" and "Markets" "Authority", do I really need to explain why their protection of businesses/corporations against anti-competitive operators is inextricably linked to protecting consumers - which is their government mandate?

 

[SomeGit]

Why is this a good thing exactly? Why does it require a defence?

If you want to see how bad things can and do get take a look at the iracing pricing model. And I say that as someone who once went down that rabbit hole.

I'm sure Microsoft are licking their lips considering how willingly people are to turn a blind eye. New suckers are born every day.

No one is turning a blind eye, no one is being suckered into buying DLC as you knew fully well that every single purchase you made in iRacing was only valid as long as you were subscribed. If you don't feel it was worth it that's on you but don't extend this to everyone.

No one is being "suckered" into buying 35$ DLC for Starfield, they know fully well that they can't access it if they unsubscribe, at that point you still have the option to buy the game and keep the DLC or subscribe again.

Not saying it's "good" it is what it is, but it's nothing uncommon in the industry even in full priced games.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Can we agree that all that really matters is the truth, and this can only be obtained by making an inquiry to Sony. MS's and the CMA's interpretation of why Sony ended up agreeing to the deal could only come from a place of ignorance, that is unless Sony had their internal discussions in the presence of the other parties (I doubt that).

You misunderstand why the judge wants their account of why Sony accepted a worse deal than the offer they rejected 18months earlier. The judge is trying to build evidence to defend his decision, while also using it to put dishonest actors on record at the time, so challenges will immediately clarify the truth.

Microsoft's inability to evidence the pitfalls the judge put in the conditions of evidence is telling him all he needs to know about the "trust me" bros.

Even if this awful merger passes, it won't be the judge's fault.

 

[Vox Machina]

No one is turning a blind eye, no one is being suckered into buying DLC as you knew fully well that every single purchase you made in iRacing was only valid as long as you were subscribed. If you don't feel it was worth it that's on you but don't extend this to everyone.

No one is being "suckered" into buying 35$ DLC for Starfield, they know fully well that they can't access it if they unsubscribe, at that point you still have the option to buy the game and keep the DLC or subscribe again.

 

[MarkMe2525]

The CMA are an evidence based regulator, and as Cardwell's TV interview with sky news, today - to publicly communicate to the CAT judge - she stated the block still remains and they have no evidence of a new proposal. And even if they do have a verbal agreement with Microsoft, the CAT judge has now made it his conditional sign off on the evidence that changes the CMA position, so no, as it stands your statement is wrong, both for the CMA, and - more importantly - the CAT.

So is the judge in effect ruling for the CMA? To be more clear, if the CMA has changed its position due to a implied change to the transaction, is the judge going to block the CMA new position if he doesn't find the new changes compelling enough?

 

[Punished Miku]

I'm just trying to understand how you think Game Pass or PS+ increase FOMO because, honestly, from where I'm sitting they seem to decrease it.

100%. You have zero reason to pre-order anything or ever buy games from GP you havent already fully tried. You get new games every week so you're kind of getting your shopping dopamine hit that people fall prey to. You are more clear-eyed to just purchase what you want and at a good price. Definitely decreased it for me.

 

[DryvBy]

These two are the exact same as your hypothetical "permanent purchaser" AND Game Pass subs get those cheaper AND the first one gets you access to a catalog of games and sub. specific perks.

I fail to see how this is supposed to be a bad deal.

Might as well just say the line...

Game Pass is the best deal in gaming™

 

[GHG]

So why is Early Access used in the B2P markets?

To create FOMO and extract extra money from those who can't bear to wait up to an extra week.

This viewpoint applies to all games with early access included with DLC, what does gamepass have to with it? Is the argument that gamepass should include the DLC to all the titles hosted on the service?

This who discussion stems from the idea of people purchasing DLC for games they don't own does it not? The whole concept of early access being included in the DLC for games launching on gamepass is to extract extra money from gamepass subscribers. Ask yourself why there's no option to only get the early access and nothing else.

 

[Vox Machina]

Software sales are not up to standard on Xbox because of Gamepass, and Xbox sales are where they at despite Gamepass. Clearly despite all the effort fans put into selling the service, it's taking MS a 80B investment on it to salvage their strategy.

And the fact remains that as Xbox the console continues to turn into nothing more than a GP vehicle, third parties who want to make big games will rely more and more on other platforms.

The VAST majority of third-party games are not available on Game Pass, much less day one. So from the perspective of third-parties Game Pass and PS+ are more similar than they are different. I very much doubt ABK's purchase leads to less third-party support on Xbox, much less PC.

 

[Vox Machina]

To create FOMO and extract extra money from those who can't bear to wait up to an extra week.



This who discussion stems from the idea of people purchasing DLC for games they don't own does it not? The whole concept of early access being included in the DLC for games launching on gamepass is to extract extra money from gamepass subscribers. Ask yourself why there's no option to only get the early access and nothing else.

Early Access is the same in B2P markets as it is on Game Pass, though. What you're arguing simply has nothing to do with Game Pass and is simply more about publishers wanting more revenue.

Game Pass is the best deal in gaming™

You said it, not me

 

[GHG]

No one is turning a blind eye, no one is being suckered into buying DLC as you knew fully well that every single purchase you made in iRacing was only valid as long as you were subscribed. If you don't feel it was worth it that's on you but don't extend this to everyone.

No one is being "suckered" into buying 35$ DLC for Starfield, they know fully well that they can't access it if they unsubscribe, at that point you still have the option to buy the game and keep the DLC or subscribe again.

Not saying it's "good" it is what it is, but it's nothing uncommon in the industry even in full priced games.

When the only way to get early access is via purchasing all the DLC then yes, people are being suckered.

And for what it's worth, everything about the iracing model revolves around suckering people in. They even offer "credit" for participation across a season (which, if you're relatively new will require you to purchase more tracks. Hell, even if you're not new it will require the purchase of more tracks due to new tracks being introduced every season). It's a monetization hamster wheel.

You better hope they never take away the option for people to purchase the games that are available on gamepass. But considering this display of defence for the DLC side of things, I'd say some people are already sufficiently lubed.

Early Access is the same in B2P markets as it is on Game Pass, though. What you're arguing simply has nothing to do with Game Pass and is simply more about publishers wanting more revenue.

Yes it is the same via B2P, and as explained it's worse on gamepass due to people not having a permanent license for the underlying game they are purchasing DLC for.

 

[adamsapple]

They are the "Competition" and "Markets" "Authority", do I really need to explain why their protection of businesses/corporations against anti-competitive operators is inextricably linked to protecting consumers - which is their government mandate?

Well the good news is that it seems to be enroute to get approvals from the CMA at the moment so we're good.

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

So what's exactly the argument against Gamepass?

Are you scared of Gamepass' influence on the industry?

Are you looking out for the dum dums who can't run a simple cost/value analysis and make better choices for themselves?

Are you envious of those that extract much more value out of Gamepass than you can with a B2P model?

Why such fervent opposition to a business model that you've decided you won't participate in?

 

[Ginzeen]

The CMA are an evidence based regulator, and as Cardwell's TV interview with sky news, today - to publicly communicate to the CAT judge - she stated the block still remains and they have no evidence of a new proposal. And even if they do have a verbal agreement with Microsoft, the CAT judge has now made it his conditional sign off on the evidence that changes the CMA position, so no, as it stands your statement is wrong, both for the CMA, and - more importantly - the CAT.

*Yawn, the new deal is coming. Their waiting on it. CMA already told them what to do. CAT judge is a non issue.

 

[poppabk]

Just saying. Your assertion that subscription services, by virtue of their model, mean's that "producing AAA bangers" is less sustainable is actually the complete opposite of true. Having more revenue streams available to subsidize the cost of producing AAA bangers is in-fact more sustainable.

Yeah there is this weird dichotomy where sub services are both fleecing you out of money but also simultaneously not bringing in enough money.

 

[Vox Machina]

So what's exactly the argument against Gamepass?

Are you scared of Gamepass' influence on the industry?

Are you looking out for the dum dums who can't run a simple cost/value analysis and make better choices for themselves?

Are you envious of those that extract much more value out of Gamepass than you can with a B2P model?

Why such fervent opposition to a business model that you've decided you won't participate in?

Permanently owning games is morally superior, don't you know?

 

[GHG]

So what's exactly the argument against Gamepass?

Are you scared of Gamepass' influence on the industry?

Are you looking out for the dum dums who can't run a simple cost/value analysis and make better choices for themselves?

Are you envious of those that extract much more value out of Gamepass than you can with a B2P model?

Why such fervent opposition to a business model that you've decided you won't participate in?

I'm against the idea that it's "better value" for everyone. It simply isn't.

Oh and I'm against astroturfers.

 

[MarkMe2525]

To create FOMO and extract extra money from those who can't bear to wait up to an extra week.



This who discussion stems from the idea of people purchasing DLC for games they don't own does it not? The whole concept of early access being included in the DLC for games launching on gamepass is to extract extra money from gamepass subscribers.

The whole concept for early access on DLC is to extract extra money from all would be customers, not just gamepass subscribers. That's 100% the reason for any and all DLC, this isn't some exclusive gamepass scheme.

Ask yourself why there's no option to only get the early access and nothing else.

Isn't it obvious, it's the same for literally all DLC for any game hosted on Gamepass, PS+ and all of their tiers, Games with Gold, ea play. They had to include a way for a subscriber to purchase any and all DLC, this isn't exclusive to DLC with early access. In any of these cases, purchased DLC will be useless if a user unsubscribes from any of these services

The only two other alternatives is include all the DLC for every game on Game Pass, or the inability for a Game Pass subscriber to purchase the DLC for the hosted games. I have a hard time believing either one of these alternatives makes sense in todays market.

 

[Timberwolf25]

Permanently owning games is morally superior, don't you know?

And you can have both.
Must be a slow news day since the anti-sub/merger people are resurrecting old arguments.

 

[IDappa]

Apparently you don't own it, just a license they can revoke at any time, mate. Sorry to be the bearer of bad second hand news.

Shit I better write microsoft an angry email. Didn't realise this.

What happens with the physical discs I have bought that need most of the game downloaded to play anyway?. I'm good with them right?, right?!.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Permanently owning games is morally superior, don't you know?

MarkMe2525 Can we get a strawman check on isle 2, please?

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

I'm against the idea that it's "better value" for everyone. It simply isn't.

Oh and I'm against astroturfers.

You're right. Gamepass isn't for everyone. I don't think anyone is arguing that it is. I know I'm not.