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[PaintTinJr]

As would be their right by UK law.

That was never in dispute. But I assume if that's your answer - to me refuting the usefulness of comity and proportionality to an unlikely scenario of Microsoft needing an appeal, only one of those paths has potential, and even then it would be hard won, especially when gaming is now worth more than Tv/film and music markets in the UK, so cloud gaming having the eventual potential to dwarf console gaming in many decades ahead is an easy theory to float for the CMA.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Because they are. They're actively working with internal teams and middleware partners to enable their games to run on graphics APIs and operating systems that those games were not designed to run on, even when they're not required or beholden to. That's support.

Completely rubbish. As either ditching directX or implementing DirectX on other platforms is the only sincere strategy that makes that sentence true.

 

[//DEVIL//]

Was watching Dustin Video update. why did he say the deal will close this fall? I thought we will CMA answer this month

 

[Three]

Because they are. They're actively working with internal teams and middleware partners to enable their games to run on graphics APIs and operating systems that those games were not designed to run on, even when they're not required or beholden to. That's support.

Do you honestly think MS are going to middleware partners to help them drop their dependency on windows? That's cute.

 

[adamsapple]

Do you guys who post here actually play videogames?

do what now ?

 

[Vox Machina]

Completely rubbish. As either ditching directX or implementing DirectX on other platforms is the only sincere strategy that makes that sentence true.

Ah, I see were a fan of "forced licensing/forced porting" now. Could happen one day with DMA/DMCC-style legislation, for sure. But how would that solve your hypothetical DirectX monopoly in that case? Wouldn't that just exacerbate it?

Do you honestly think MS are going to middleware partners to help them drop their dependency on windows? That's cute.

As far as I can tell they're doing a better job of it than, *checks notes* literally any other publisher other than Valve themselves. Remember Microsoft isn't responsible for patching SteamOS. They're not responsible for patching Proton. Nobody forced Valve to use create and sell devices that use Proton to customers. And Microsoft certainly shouldn't be forced to stop or slow development on DirectX because Proton exists.

 

[Three]

As far as I can tell they're doing a better job of it than, *checks notes* literally any other publisher other than Valve themselves.

No they're not, but I can see why somebody with a tag like yours would think that. That would probably be Bandai Namco, devolver digital, maybe paradox interactive would be up there too, probably even SIE are better. There are many who are doing a better job. Believe it or not Valve isn't even the best at being steamdeck verified but they barely publish games nowadays anyway and their VR title doesn't qualify at all.

Remember Microsoft isn't responsible for patching SteamOS. They're not responsible for patching Proton. Nobody forced Valve to use create and sell devices that use Proton to customers. And Microsoft certainly shouldn't be forced to stop or slow development on DirectX because Proton exists.

Nobody is saying MS are obligated to offer support, just that they aren't offering support for the platform. Nobody said Valve was forced to release steamdeck. Back to the actual point.

You said MS are actively working with middleware partners to enable their games to run on graphics APIs and operating systems that those games were not designed to run on, and that simply isn't true. It's cute that you think they are though. Most of their games release broken on the platform and proton developers actively work to get it running and that's not what I would call publisher platform support. That's the norm for MS releases and especially true for games that weren't in development prior to an acquisition.

 

[Vox Machina]

Bandai Namco, devolver digital, maybe paradox interactive would be up there too, probably even SIE are better. There are many who are doing a better job. Believe it or not Valve isn't even the best at being steamdeck verified but they barely publish games nowadays anyway and their VR title doesn't qualify at all.

My definition of publisher supporting a platform would mean not releasing broken games, testing on the platform, providing official customer support if it doesn't work. That's what I consider supporting a platform.

These publishers have official customer support for the SteamOS versions of their games? I find that highly implausable. Also, Sony _literally_ delays the release of their games on PC in order to sell more Playstations. I wouldn't exactly call that better PC support, no matter the OS.

I just took a sec to go through XGS's recent releases on PC and they're all playable on SteamOS with the only caveat usually being the use of the on-screen keyboard (presumably for the Xbox account login prompt).

 

[theclaw135]

Ah, I see were a fan of "forced licensing/forced porting" now. Could happen one day with DMA/DMCC-style legislation, for sure. But how would that solve your hypothetical DirectX monopoly in that case? Wouldn't that just exacerbate it?



As far as I can tell they're doing a better job of it than, *checks notes* literally any other publisher other than Valve themselves. Remember Microsoft isn't responsible for patching SteamOS. They're not responsible for patching Proton. Nobody forced Valve to use create and sell devices that use Proton to customers. And Microsoft certainly shouldn't be forced to stop or slow development on DirectX because Proton exists.

DirectX is a dinosaur. If Microsoft can shift Windows games off their proprietary API, to modern open standards, gaming will be better for it.

 

[Three]

These publishers have official customer support for the SteamOS versions of their games? I find that highly implausable.

Why do you jump around when making arguments? You said they are the best publisher for steamdeck so what has this strawman got to do with it? Does MS have official customer support? No.
But anyway, a verified game with proactive support usually has the right to get customer support and without being told that hardware is not supported for the game so they can't help them.

Also, Sony _literally_ delays the release of their games on PC in order to sell more Playstations. I wouldn't exactly call that better PC support, no matter the OS.

Nobody is talking about release schedule but if you want to cross off SIE for steamdeck support for that go for it I have no problems with it. Does it address the point that MS are not doing what you say they're doing or the fact that MS are nowhere near the top publishers for support? Not really.

I just took a sec to go through XGS's recent releases on PC and they're all playable on SteamOS with the only caveat usually being the use of the on-screen keyboard (presumably for the Xbox account login prompt).

So you want to go round and round in circles. They're 'playable' because Valve/proton usually try to get it working after the fact by improving their compatibility layer, not because MS support the platform or are working with middleware companies to drop their windows dependencies. This is especially true for games that have been under MS for a while and have shifted their development standards to directx and windows APIs only without a care in the world for compatibility on others. Case in point, a recent release



That's not "actively working with middleware partners" to get the platform supported. It didn't even require middleware. If you really think they work with them to support the platform things like this wouldn't be happening. The actual people who care and support it are the proton/valve team who play cat and mouse trying to fix these to be playable.

 

[supernova8]

This is easy. Comity (and to a lesser extent Proportionality). After the CMA blocked the entire rest of the PLANET EARTH either approved the deal explicitly or implicitly. The MSFT appeal would have seen the CAT sent it back to the CMA based on Comity alone, and MSFT would have also argued that a block was way out of proportion to the alleged SLC, especially when their behavioral remedies are in place.

That doesn't actually explain why CMA seems to have completely dropped their case though.

Microsoft is free to argue that they believe the block is out of proportion. If the CMA decided that their proposed behavioral remedies (BRs) were not good enough then it makes no sense for them to suddenly do a 180 and be like "oh yeah actually those BRs are fine after all". Besides, the presence of comity or lack thereof has no bearing on anything. Just because everyone else approved it doesn't automatically mean the CMA is somehow acting unlawfully/illegally/irrationally. MSFT/ACTI would have to PROVE that to have a chance of successfully appealing the CMA's decision.

That's why this all looks so fishy.

 

[SomeGit]

No they're not, but I can see why somebody with a tag like yours would think that. That would probably be Bandai Namco, devolver digital, maybe paradox interactive would be up there too, probably even SIE are better. There are many who are doing a better job. Believe it or not Valve isn't even the best at being steamdeck verified but they barely publish games nowadays anyway and their VR title doesn't qualify at all.

The other 3 are mostly fine, especially Devolver and SIE. But I wouldn't mention Bandai Namco, all their DB games with AC are broken on Deck, like Xenoverse, Breakers,l and FighterZ.


Again, you are putting too much emphasis on the Verified tag. Some games like Dota 2 and TF2 are never going to be fully Verified, simply because they were designed with Mouse and Keyboard in mind. But in the end it doesn't really matter that much, there's plenty of "Playable" games that are much better than "Verified" games to play on Deck.

 

[ManaByte]

Some games like Dota 2 and TF2 are never going to be fully Verified, simply because they were designed with Mouse and Keyboard in mind.

I guess Valve isn't supporting the Steam Deck based on some of the logic displayed here over "verified".

 

[Ozriel]

You said MS are actively working with middleware partners to enable their games to run on graphics APIs and operating systems that those games were not designed to run on, and that simply isn't true. It's cute that you think they are though. Most of their games release broken on the platform and proton developers actively work to get it running and that's not what I would call publisher platform support. That's the norm for MS releases and especially true for games that weren't in development prior to an acquisition.

Youre still persisting with misinformation. The Steamdeck released Feb 2022. Sine that time, most of their games showed up working day 1, with many launching with Deck verified stamps. there's documented evidence of them spending dev time to older games like Halo MCC working on the Deck

The only exception you've been able to raise was that one Minecraft game that was fixed shortly after launch.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Ah, I see were a fan of "forced licensing/forced porting" now. Could happen one day with DMA/DMCC-style legislation, for sure. But how would that solve your hypothetical DirectX monopoly in that case? Wouldn't that just exacerbate it?

...

That's a stretch, why - if they are trying to be the benevolent saviour of SteamOS and gaming and all round good guy "bringing more games to more people on more platforms" - would they not do it off their own back? And why have they not done it already - unless it is all BS to hide their monopolistic strategy for gaming with Windows APIs?

 

[PaintTinJr]

That doesn't actually explain why CMA seems to have completely dropped their case though.

Microsoft is free to argue that they believe the block is out of proportion. If the CMA decided that their proposed behavioral remedies (BRs) were not good enough then it makes no sense for them to suddenly do a 180 and be like "oh yeah actually those BRs are fine after all". Besides, the presence of comity or lack thereof has no bearing on anything. Just because everyone else approved it doesn't automatically mean the CMA is somehow acting unlawfully/illegally/irrationally. MSFT/ACTI would have to PROVE that to have a chance of successfully appealing the CMA's decision.

That's why this all looks so fishy.

Despite the 500page document by the CMA making perfect sense and laying out the problem, clearly it apparently isn't dodgy or fishy at all to capitulate to the exact same offer in new wrapping paper.

My previous page comment to the same affect had a reply telling me it was all in my head - and their comment got lots of - shill - emoji support.

 

[Three]

The other 3 are mostly fine, especially Devolver and SIE. But I wouldn't mention Bandai Namco, all their DB games with AC are broken on Deck, like Xenoverse, Breakers,l and FighterZ.

Fair point I think a lot of their games are compatible because they're very multiplatform to begin with so mostly blind luck of not relying on platform specific APIs as much. Having said that I think I read somewhere that some of their games even have steamdeck button prompts in game but could be remembering wrong.

Again, you are putting too much emphasis on the Verified tag. Some games like Dota 2 and TF2 are never going to be fully Verified, simply because they were designed with Mouse and Keyboard in mind. But in the end it doesn't really matter that much, there's plenty of "Playable" games that are much better than "Verified" games to play on Deck.

Too much emphasis in what way? If they were designed for mouse keyboard, bigger screens etc then the experience wasn't designed for that device and support isn't great. That's the hard truth.

On the other hand there are devs who actively seek verified status and they want to make the steamdeck experience good. Whether that is new control schemes for the steamdeck, larger more legible UI on a smaller screen, or whatever. Verified is a good indication of support and player experience.

I guess Valve isn't supporting the Steam Deck based on some of the logic displayed here over "verified".

Herp derp, valve is barely even a publisher anymore but valve made a lot of desktop heavy and VR games not suitable for steamdeck. Doesn't mean some other publisher like Devolver digital can't offer better support in terms of games for the device. As an example Sony make a lot of PS games but most of their games aren't PSVR games or offer support for it, there can be a publisher who does VR releases better on the PSVR. Doesn't mean Sony "isn't supporting" PSVR in terms of development and third party games. It just means there are publishers putting in more effort on a particular device.

Youre still persisting with misinformation. The Steamdeck released Feb 2022. Sine that time, most of their games showed up working day 1, with many launching with Deck verified stamps. there's documented evidence of them spending dev time to older games like Halo MCC working on the Deck

The only exception you've been able to raise was that one Minecraft game that was fixed shortly after launch.

What's the misinformation? The misinformation is coming from Vox Machina suggesting there is active support with them working with middleware partners for it when they're not, or that they're the best publisher for steamdeck support when they're not.

Since February 2022 MS has barely even had any major releases, especially ones from their studios which they've owned for a while. I gave an example of a release that was broken well past steamdecks release date but you're trying to brush it aside. There are others that weren't at release.

And stop trying to make MCC seem like some massive effort in dev time too that needed time after steamdeck release. The EAC support in proton predates steamdeck release here. They didn't have to work with middleware partners or spend considerable development time, Valve/proton did to get support with the middleware, and 343i had an easy task that's step by step here. The fact that it took so long with 343i in the gutter trying to boost MCC with it isn't a testament to steamdeck support, it's not because steamdeck only just released so they needed time or something.

 

[SomeGit]

Fair point I think a lot of their games are compatible because they're very multiplatform to begin with so mostly blind luck of not relying on platform specific APIs as much. Having said that I think I read somewhere that some of their games even have steamdeck button prompts in game but could be remembering wrong.

Unless it's the Steam button itself or one of the paddle buttons, there isn't much to do there. The rest are equal to their Xbox counterparts.

Too much emphasis in what way? If they were designed for mouse keyboard, bigger screens etc then the experience wasn't designed for that device and support isn't great. That's the hard truth.
On the other hand there are devs who actively seek verified status and they want to make the steamdeck experience good. Whether that is new control schemes for the steamdeck, larger more legible UI on a smaller screen, or whatever. Verified is a good indication of support and player experience.

Because most of them don't seek that status, since they are console ports they are obviously gonna be easier to fit than a game like DOTA 2, yet DOTA 2 has a Steam Deck/Linux native build, a Steam Deck specific control scheme and a Steam Deck specific UI but the nature of the game isn't never going to allow it to be "Verified" unless you sacrifice the original gameplay.

Then there's the inconsistency of the tags themselves, a game like BG3 is verified yet on the default settings it's terrible to play, even lowering the settings you need to set the GPU frequency to around 1200 to let the CPU have the most of the limited TDP. Then there's the UI which is too small expecially the looting dialog and if you touch the touch screen by default it automatically switches the Mouse UI which gets annoying fast, oh and on the desktop mode it doesn't launch because the launcher isn't compatible with Proton so you can't even change the game's API to Vulkan. Yet it's verified, but a game like Dark Souls Remastered isn't because you need to press Steam+X at the caracter creation screen, that's it locked 60 with no issues after that. See the difference? There's plenty more too, like Sackboy being broken for months because of EOS, yet it still was verified but a game that works flawlessly like MGS V PP isn't because some text is too small? What text?

Verified isn't a good indication, if you want a good indication go to ProtonDB.

 

[Three]

Unless it's the Steam button itself or one of the paddle buttons, there isn't much to do there. The rest are equal to their Xbox counterparts.

Not saying it's a massive task but having steamdeck button prompts shows they took it into account in development. BTW You can be verified on deck with xbox button layout but asking the user to press a keyboard key that isn't there is not a good experience.

Because most of them don't seek that status, since they are console ports they are obviously gonna be easier to fit than a game like DOTA 2, yet DOTA 2 has a Steam Deck/Linux native build, a Steam Deck specific control scheme and a Steam Deck specific UI but the nature of the game isn't never going to allow it to be "Verified" unless you sacrifice the original gameplay.

But some do. Does that make one that doesn't aim for that status the best with steamdeck support though?
Being console games that translate well to steamdeck doesn't mean the verified status is meaningless either. It still means the experience fits the device better. You're concentrating on the effort required because of my conversation with Ozriel and time required since deck release perhaps and conflating effort with the verified status.
For reference Dota isn't a good experience on steamdeck for these reasons

Then there's the inconsistency of the tags themselves, a game like BG3 is verified yet on the default settings it's terrible to play, even lowering the settings you need to set the GPU frequency to around 1200 to let the CPU have the most of the limited TDP. Then there's the UI which is too small expecially the looting dialog.
and if you touch the touch screen by default it automatically switches the Mouse UI which gets annoying fast, oh and on the desktop mode it doesn't launch because the launcher isn't compatible with Proton so you can't even change the game's API to Vulkan. Yet it's verified, but a game like Dark Souls Remastered isn't because you need to press Steam+X at the caracter creation screen, that's it locked 60 with no issues after that. See the difference?

If this is true then valve shouldn't have given it a verified status because it goes against the criteria of legible text and acceptable performance. That might be on valve and trying to sell steamdecks but the criteria is there to get verification though:

Steam Deck Compatibility Review Process (Steamworks Documentation)

partner.steamgames.com

There's plenty more too, like Sackboy being broken for months because of EOS, yet it still was verified but a game that works flawlessly like MGS V PP isn't because some text is too small? What text?

This is because of the dynamic nature of compatibility and updates and no official support. it sucks but it is what it is. The Epic Online Service update broke it and it maintained its status until fixed or valve should have updated its status quicker. It does indicate that Epic or SIE did not test the update on the device so their support for it isn't great with the game or Epic Online Service. This goes back to what I was saying before about what 'support' actually means and the ability to break things when you don't actually support the device. Valve having to continuously chase that mouse to try and get games working when others who don't support it end up with broken releases. It does not indicate 'support' from Epic Online Service, SIE or MS though if a game is 'playable'. Even less than it does for 'verified' because there are genuinely devs who aim for a good experience on steamdeck. The flaws and broken games doesn't really take away from that fact.

You either need to be consistent and accept that the 'playable' status is often even more meaningless than verified when using it to indicate 'support' from MS (some games perform terribly and have a bad UX) or accept that verified has some meaning much like 'playable', which is an even lower tier of support for the device. None of this indicates a higher level of support from MS though compared to say Devolver Digital, that was the main point.

 

[SomeGit]

Yes, Valve is very inconsistent with their tags. I've played even unsupported games that are better than Playable. Verified games that aren't playable at all, etc..

But I could list a lot of Verified games that are awful on Deck and a lot of Playable that are fantastic, each game needs it's own context. Proton DB offers that context so it's a better indicator in general

None of this indicates a higher level of support from MS though compared to say Devolver Digital, that was the main point.

I didn't say this, but they do have a higher amount of support than most. Devolver are great so is SIE, but as already mentioned in this thread most who don't do the bare minimum or are aggressively against it like Bungie or Facepunch.

Again, I don't think they are championing SteamOS but they do more than just rely on Valve and the majority of their games are really good on Deck.

 

[adamsapple]

I'm sorry to force a break in the steam OS power hour discussion.

 

[Bojanglez]

I'm sorry to force a break in the steam OS power hour discussion.

It's almost as if they are a paid marketing arm of Microsoft

 

[adamsapple]

It's almost as if they are a paid marketing arm of Microsoft

The power of agreements

 

[Negotiator101]

It's almost as if they are a paid marketing arm of Microsoft

Or a direct competitor? See what I did?

 

[Pelta88]

It's almost as if they are a paid marketing arm of Microsoft

It's almost verbatim to PR Brad Smith released earlier in the year.

 

[Three]

I didn't say this, but they do have a higher amount of support than most. Devolver are great so is SIE, but as already mentioned in this thread most who don't do the bare minimum or are aggressively against it like Bungie or Facepunch.

Well you replied to me when I listed developers doing a better job than what Vox mentioned by saying I'm putting too much emphasis on verified which has a stricter criteria than 'playable'. Others put emphasis on 'playable' as indication of support. I didn't mention Bungie or Facepunch at all, I just listed developers who did a good job of steamdeck support and said valve barely publishes games anymore and a lot of their past games aren't designed for steamdeck but desktop and VR.

Again, I don't think they are championing SteamOS but they do more than just rely on Valve and the majority of their games are really good on Deck.

Are they the best though like Vox Machina is suggesting? Yes or no?

Why are you putting so much emphasis on my use of the word verified when I said valve aren't even the best at steamdeck releases?

 

[Vox Machina]

Why do you jump around when making arguments? You said they are the best publisher for steamdeck so what has this strawman got to do with it? Does MS have official customer support? No.

My Brother in Christ did you just call _your own argument_ a strawman??

Check the quoted posts in my reply, lmao.

 

[SomeGit]

Well you replied to me when I listed developers doing a better job than what Vox mentioned by saying I'm putting too much emphasis on verified which has a stricter criteria than 'playable'. Others put emphasis on 'playable' as indication of support. I didn't mention Bungie or Facepunch at all, I just listed developers who did a good job of steamdeck support and said valve barely publishes games anymore and a lot of their past games aren't designed for steamdeck but desktop and VR.


Are they the best though like Vox Machina is suggesting? Yes or no?

Why are you putting so much emphasis on my use of the word verified when I said valve aren't even the best at steamdeck releases?

And I said that devolver and SIE are top notch on their support, I don't agree with Bandai Namco and Paradox the only games I've played on Deck from the are the F1 manager games which are fine there I don't think these 2 are doing a better job than MS. No MS isn't the best, but like I said, they are clearly above average, they have put work on supporting the device.

The only emphasis about verified is because it looked like you were using it has a holy grail to show support for the device, which isn't the case a lot of them haven't had any work into it at all and a lot that did are still in Playable.

EDIT: I'm and idiot, F1 manager is Frontier not Paradox, I have no clue about Paradox then.

 

[Zathalus]

I think this thread is the only place I've come across that the concern in this deal is about DirectX of all things.

Who gives a shit? Vulkan and DX12 are so similar on Windows that it hardly matters. Developers can choose whatever they like.

 

[adamsapple]

I think this thread is the only place I've come across that the concern in this deal is about DirectX of all things.

Who gives a shit? Vulkan and DX12 are so similar on Windows that it hardly matters. Developers can choose whatever they like.

Gotta keep finding new grifts afterall.

 

[SomeGit]

I think this thread is the only place I've come across that the concern in this deal is about DirectX of all things.

Who gives a shit? Vulkan and DX12 are so similar on Windows that it hardly matters. Developers can choose whatever they like.

It's a good discussion, but it's completely off topic because ABK has 0 support for Vulkan/Linux/MacOS/SteamOS except for WoW. A shame as in the 00's Blizzard was one of the saving graces for Mac gaming, but they dropped that since 2015.

 

[Vox Machina]

It's a good discussion, but it's completely off topic because ABK has 0 support for Vulkan/Linux/MacOS/SteamOS except for WoW. A shame as in the 00's Blizzard was one of the saving graces for Mac gaming, but they dropped that since 2015.

Hearthstone (on Mac) as well. I play it on my MacBook when I'm away from my PC. It doesn't run super great but it works alright.

 

[SomeGit]

Hearthstone (on Mac) as well. I play it on my MacBook when I'm away from my PC. It doesn't run super great but it works alright.

I completely forgot about that and HoTS.

 

[Three]

My Brother in Christ did you just call _your own argument_ a strawman??

Check the quoted posts in my reply, lmao.

Do you even know what a strawman is?

In an earlier discussion after your other dumb idea that "EA doesn't officially support PS because they're not writing the PS OS/API" you said

Supporting a platform has nothing to do with how that platform works under the hood... Could you give us a definition of what "support" means to you?

And I gave you this definition of what a publisher officially supporting a platform would usually mean:

My definition of publisher supporting a platform would mean not releasing broken games, testing on the platform, providing official customer support if it doesn't work. That's what I consider supporting a platform.

Then later on you said some more unrelated nonsense when discussing "MS going to middleware partners to help them drop their dependency on windows":

As far as I can tell they're doing a better job of it than, *checks notes* literally any other publisher other than Valve themselves. Remember Microsoft isn't responsible for patching SteamOS. They're not responsible for patching Proton. Nobody forced Valve to use create and sell devices that use Proton to customers. And Microsoft certainly shouldn't be forced to stop or slow development on DirectX because Proton exists.

No they're not, but I can see why somebody with a tag like yours would think that. That would probably be Bandai Namco, devolver digital, maybe paradox interactive...

Your reply to that was this:

These publishers have official customer support for the SteamOS versions of their games? I find that highly implausable.

If you can't see the obvious strawman in that argument then you're an idiot, plain and simple.

It was a list of publishers doing a better job with their releases than MS when it comes to steamdeck and dropping windows dependencies. It doesn't even mean they were publishers who have official platform support.

I also only now saw this edit when going back to quote your posts.

Edit: also

So Valve decided to use Proton because Xbox games launched broken on Proton because Proton is trying to mimic DirectX. What type of circular logic is that?

I don't even know what new dumb shit you're saying here but Valve decided to use proton because publishers would not support their platform and release native steamOS games. So instead of trying to get official support they used proton to mimic a platform that does get support in a cat and mouse chase. It's not hard but I can see you're not very good with logic.

Valve just decided to roll the dice on Proton. They could have also used Vulkan, OpenGL, or asked Google to license the Stadia OS Graphics API (linux-based), or asked Sony to license the Playstation OS Graphics API (also linux-based). Nobody forced Valve to use Proton, and Microsoft isn't beholden to stop development on DirectX simply because Proton exists.

You can't be this dumb surely. They didn't just decide to roll the dice with proton. They had to do it for game support because as has been said several times publishers including MS would not officially support the linux based OS/platform. Now instead of thanking Valve and the proton team for developing this compatibility layer you're trying to palm it off as MS evangelism and them caring about steamdeck, or them going to middleware developers to drop their windows dependencies when it's the proton team working to get games working, often after a broken release from the publisher.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Do you guys who post here actually play videogames?

 

[PaintTinJr]

I think this thread is the only place I've come across that the concern in this deal is about DirectX of all things.

Who gives a shit? Vulkan and DX12 are so similar on Windows that it hardly matters. Developers can choose whatever they like.

For someone very familiar with the technical aspects surrounding APIs, you can't possibly believe that, can you? If Microsoft adopted all the common linux open source open standard APIs; particularly for graphics and audio, you can't tell me that the world would still continue to pay Microsoft for their expensive licenses just for the "look and feel" of Windows, are you? particularly PC gamers that are very software price sensitive, but not so much for their hardware.

Surely every time they changed the ;"look and feel" of Windows they'd lose massive marketshare of the OS market without their APIs and market share controlling devs, which indirectly controls consumers/businesses .

/edit
This is a prong of the trifecta of issues that raises the CMA's Cloud SLC from Microsoft acquiring ATVI, and Google were one of the major players supplying information about that very issue of the premade monopoly for Windows in cloud game serving, because of the 95% market share Windows and its APIs have in non-cloud PC gaming.

 

[Aguero9320]

I never believed this thread could become less readable. Congratulations, everyone involved

(any chance to stay on topic? I keep thinking there's been news...)

 

[Timberwolf25]

I never believed this thread could become less readable. Congratulations, everyone involved

(any chance to stay on topic? I keep thinking there's been news...)

This right here.
This thread has turned into a outlet for people to get their hate boner groove on for anything, but the discussion of the deal.

 

[Schmick]

This right here.
This thread has turned into a outlet for people to get their hate boner groove on for anything, but the discussion of the deal.

The other forum temporary closed their thread on the topic for that very reason.

 

[Zathalus]

For someone very familiar with the technical aspects surrounding APIs, you can't possibly believe that, can you? If Microsoft adopted all the common linux open source open standard APIs; particularly for graphics and audio, you can't tell me that the world would still continue to pay Microsoft for their expensive licenses just for the "look and feel" of Windows, are you? particularly PC gamers that are very software price sensitive, but not so much for their hardware.

Surely every time they changed the ;"look and feel" of Windows they'd lose massive marketshare of the OS market without their APIs and market share controlling devs, which indirectly controls consumers/businesses .

/edit
This is a prong of the trifecta of issues that raises the CMA's Cloud SLC from Microsoft acquiring ATVI, and Google were one of the major players supplying information about that very issue of the premade monopoly for Windows in cloud game serving, because of the 95% market share Windows and its APIs have in non-cloud PC gaming.

No, people use Windows because it is Windows. API usage has got nothing to do with it. If Microsoft was to make DX12 available on Linux the net impact would likely be a near zero on OS marketshare.

Nobody uses Windows thinking that if only Microsoft would allow DX on Linux I would switch over.

Besides DirectX being only available on Windows doesn't really matter. Vulkan and DX12 are so similar that developers are free to choose whatever one they want. Changing your game between Vulkan and DX12 is not going to impact visual quality or usable feature set at all. Changing between the two is so easy most calls can be translated by a simple wrapper.

Now if all developers would make Linux native versions of games is a completely different matter, but again that has very little to do with DX and everything to do with OS marketshare. The idea that Windows is this OS juggernaut solely because of gaming is a myth. If that was the case OS marketshare for office usage would be way different.

 

[poppabk]

Not saying it's a massive task but having steamdeck button prompts shows they took it into account in development.

Considering Playground haven't incorporated the correct button prompts for the official logitech xbox wheel on PC tells me that it's apparently harder than expected.
Press 'Button 14' to agree.

 

[adamsapple]

The other forum temporary closed their thread on the topic for that very reason.

Hopefully we get something from CMA this week, not sure what Reuter's source was but they said in their last article that CMA are expected to announce their provisional decision on the week starting 7th August,

 

[Ozriel]

This is a prong of the trifecta of issues that raises the CMA's Cloud SLC from Microsoft acquiring ATVI, and Google were one of the major players supplying information about that very issue of the premade monopoly for Windows in cloud game serving, because of the 95% market share Windows and its APIs have in non-cloud PC gaming.

And yet Microsoft makes barely anything from that 'monopoly'.
You're not paying Microsoft cash anytime you play a game on Steam.

Google's in no position to talk, since Valve's been able to launch a successful hardware platform off Linux. They could have done the work and made Stadia viable.

Anyway, none of this has any relevance to the deal.

 

[HoofHearted]

 

[Vox Machina]

~snip~

Yeah I'm out man. Enjoy your crusade, or whatever.

 

[Three]

Yeah I'm out man. Enjoy your crusade, or whatever.

What crusade? that seems to be you just living up to your tag. You told me to go back and read the quoted posts and how I was calling my own argument a strawman so I went back and saw you're full of shit my brother in christ.

My Brother in Christ did you just call _your own argument_ a strawman??

Check the quoted posts in my reply, lmao.

So instead of pointing out where the strawman is you bail out...

 

[bitbydeath]

What crusade? that seems to be you just living up to your tag. You told me to go back and read the quoted posts and how I was calling my own argument a strawman so I went back and saw you're full of shit my brother in christ.



So instead of pointing out where the strawman is you bail out...

You know you're just arguing with another alt, right?

 

[Topher]

Yeah.....I think I'm done with this. Thread has gone sideways.

 

[Goalus]

Got to love the people trying to use the logic "you can launch a linux subshell in windows so MS supports games on linux" some are using here. They took the most multiplatform release, a game made in Java so it can run on toasters or your internet connected fridge and made it directX and windows specific and people are still trying to suggest they support gaming on linux. Their latest release was broken on steamdeck



and you're still tryin to suggest they support the platform. Proton trying to release hotfixes and workarounds doesn't amount to MS support for the platform.

Install Windows, problem solved.
I'm pretty sure that the game runs on Steam Deck then.
Which means that Steam Deck is supported.

 

[PaintTinJr]

No, people use Windows because it is Windows. API usage has got nothing to do with it. If Microsoft was to make DX12 available on Linux the net impact would likely be a near zero on OS marketshare.

Nobody uses Windows thinking that if only Microsoft would allow DX on Linux I would switch over.

Besides DirectX being only available on Windows doesn't really matter. Vulkan and DX12 are so similar that developers are free to choose whatever one they want. Changing your game between Vulkan and DX12 is not going to impact visual quality or usable feature set at all. Changing between the two is so easy most calls can be translated by a simple wrapper.

Now if all developers would make Linux native versions of games is a completely different matter, but again that has very little to do with DX and everything to do with OS marketshare. The idea that Windows is this OS juggernaut solely because of gaming is a myth. If that was the case OS marketshare for office usage would be way different.

Your opening statement implies "Windows" beyond its proprietary APIs has some tangible form, yet, like Trigger's old broom from Only Fools and Horses, has had equivalent of 5 new heads and 20 new handles, too. The APIs are the only tangible thing - that perpetuates "Dos/Windows compatibility" that makes it "Windows".

It is easy to say changing between DirectX and Vulkan is easy when DirectX is the lead on PC gaming, the statement is clearly false, because it would make DirectX completely redundant if true. so for Microsoft to have made 20,000 other employees - than DirectX teams - redundant over the course of this merger saga, DirectX clearly is more important than all those lost livelihoods at the company. On Unreal Engine 5, switching between DirectX and Vulkan is so simple that the UE5 early access didn't even have Vulkan working, and they are middleware experts at the top of their game. So doesn't shout easy switching on a technical level, and human psychology indicates switching isn't a coin toss chance when people are already entrenched in a system.

The rest of your fairy tale is also very readable, but how do you explain Microsoft cacking their pants badly when Sun Microsystem's acquisition of Java was marketed under the "Write once, run anywhere" mantra that developers love, causing Microsoft to go into overdrive with their Embrace, Extend, Extinguish? Are you claiming Microsoft's anti-competitive actions and fear wasn't driven by the threat of an easy to deploy Java on Windows could have wrapper-ed all of Windows(the APIs) inside its own OS and removed all dependency on Windows? ....Of course it was.

Microsoft's API strategy was/ is so effective that in the last fifteen years - with Apple's success - Apple have copied and deployed the same playbook with software development to control dev choices that then controls consumer choices. Which is exactly what this whole SLC is about with the CMA.