Support NeoGAF

[Hitchyhero]

This is getting stupid. All this hurts the general population much more than Putin and his goverment.

Yes. Better to just leave them and let them invade Ukraine and do nothing. Or do you have a better idea?

Nuclear war, WW3? What's you amazing idea?

 

[zaanan]

I'll just leave you all to your fantasies, heh. Didn't I just say it's pointless to fight the Western propaganda machine? I'm not listening to my own advice, apparently.

Anyway, much like the case with incompetent russian soldiers, that's all good. You carry on. The less you think of us the better. We wouldn't want to interrupt your gloating while we look after our own interests rather than yours.

Are you Russian? Or at least live in Russia? If so, I am astonished that people have been so dismissive of your views - you are actually there and thus should understand better than anyone what is really going on.

 

[Edgelord79]

On the off chance you actually want a detailed analysis, here you go.

"Why Russia is doing this": It depends on how you define "this".
- If you mean "why is Russia trying to take control over Ukraine", then there's... like a dozen good reasons. Economic reasons mostly, some political, some ideological. At least one humanitarian. Most of them, however, have to do with the one thing the Russian government keeps telling the West that the West always says is stupid: the West has put too much pressure on Russia. Forget missiles and militaries for the moment, those functionally do not matter when it comes to Russia vs NATO, because nukes exist. Russia is not existentially threatened by NATO missiles, because even in the event that NATO launches missiles from extremely closely positioned sites, Russia will still be able to deliver a counter-strike that will be absolutely devastating to everyone. So the missiles that Putin alludes to in his speeches, those are a front. The actual problem, is the extent to which the West has been readying to deliver an economic and political blow to Russia, the extent to which the US can control NATO's so-called member states, and the extent to which it can control the public perception of Russia to suit its own needs. The practical outcome of this happening, would be a slow winding decline as Russia is gradually denied more and more of its economy base, and prevented from gaining any kind of power. There is only one solution to this - Russia needs to drop its reliance on the West, and assert a stronger position in the world.

Problem with that - Russia can't exactly just drop out of world trade. Internally, the people wouldn't support that kind of move, and the entire concept is too complex to be explainable to regular people. Because it'd mean a plummeting currency, denial of luxury goods, overall degradation of quality of life that a lot of the people got used to. So something different is needed, that people can rally around. Joke all you want, but even a "totalitarian regime" like we have here, wouldn't stand after directly making such an unpopular move.

Thankfully, the US is stupid and greedy. And they've decided that the Ukraine makes for an excellent new place d'arme to undermine Russia from, by cutting off their access to the Black Sea naval base at Sevastopol, and putting a new NATO or EU (or both) aligned country on the Russian border. The animosity between Ukrainians and "Moskali" is long-standing, and it wouldn't take much to organize the local extremists into putting the country onto a decidedly anti-russian course.
That's where this all began. Russia took action, preventing the loss of the Crimean peninsula and the Sevastopol naval base. The majority of the population being aligned with Russia made the transition relatively painless, but obviously neither the US or Ukraine liked that. Donetsk and Luhansk went into revolt as well, which Russia happily supported, and which US and Ukraine liked even less. Russia was gaining a foothold.

Fast forward eight years. The US has been stuffing the nation full of weapons and providing them with all kinds of expertise and connections to prepare for beating back the Russian 'occupation'. All attempts at peace were mocked viciously - even if Ukraine would have benefited from it, officially dumping occupied territories would have allowed it to fast-track into the EU or NATO since it wouldn't be having active hostilities anymore, but - well, the US didn't need peace in the region. It had weapons to sell, a NATO to strengthen, and a Russia to put in their place. For Russia, the people of DNR and LNR suffering under Ukrainian attacks, and the people of Crimea facing a rapidly approaching humanitarian crisis over lack of drinkable water, it's easy to rally people around a new goal. Ukraine, in the eyes of most of the public, has long been known to have Nazis among its military units. That notion has been carefully cultivated for eight years, likely blowing it far out of proportion - but it makes for an excellent, and painfully sore point for Russians, that is very easy to latch onto. Combined with efforts to help the besieged people's republics, it creates an excellent internal pretext for plunging Russia into the world of pain it has to go through to come out stronger on the other side. The sanctions, when they inevitably come, work against the West then - as they're treated as something that's being done to the Russian people from beyond the border, directing the people's ire more at the nations doing the sanctioning - and their perceived (and probably actual) US manipulators, than at the Russian government, which is "only doing what it must".

Why now?: Contrary to popular, apparently, belief, Russia isn't blind. Everyone keeps talking of Russian spies and saboteurs whenever something happens, but somehow they don't exist when it comes to keeping tabs on neighboring countries. This is a rumor, since it comes from what can well be our propaganda: Apparently, a military op was being planned in Ukraine for later in March, to take back DNR and LNR. If this is true, and were allowed to happen, it would have put Russia into a reactionary position. With the US controlling the public perception of events, and having leverage over most of Europe, Russia would have no way to justify preparing a defensive force to protect the regions, so it was either blatantly assemble an army on the border (behind a paper-thin veneer of exercises and maneuvers, which did actually occur), or lose the only possible pretext for moving forces into Ukraine territory and disrupt US plans to cripple Russia.

Bonus round: Why is Russia even attacking the whole of Ukraine, rather than just staying in the regions?: That would be because Ukraine is stuffed full of American weapons and combat-trained personnel, so merely reinforcing the border of DNR and LNR would still result in a war - just a disadvantageous one, where the enemy is free to fire indiscriminately into cities and can bring air support with impunity. Striking at as many military infrastructure targets as possible, reduces the Ukrainian army's ability to counterattack.

But why is Russia firing on all those cities, dropping bombs on civilians? Why are they leaving behind their tanks and MLRS batteries? Why are their troops so poorly equipped and useless?: Heh. Are they? Ukraine is backed by the US. The US has unmatched control over public perception of events. They control information across the whole world, and can not only pick and choose what to show, but can easily misdirect and deceive anyone in the West, because nobody there can seriously tell one eastern-european city from another, and both sides are using the same damn equipment.
Mind, I'm not saying all of what you're shown is a lie. A lot of what we're being told by our media and military is lies too. We do take casualties, we do have equipment break down on us, and it's almost guaranteed that at least some of the shells and missiles we fire land where they weren't supposed to. But do keep in mind, that almost the entire point of this whole operation, from the perspective of the US, is to discredit and depower Russia. And thinking that they wouldn't lie out their ass when they can absolutely get away with it, is at the very least monumentally naive.

(it's past midnight and I've barely proofread this; sorry for any typos)

Ok Alex.

 

[Amiga]

with all these boycotts video game bootleg industry is coming back with a bang.

 

[noise36]

This is getting stupid. Why deprive individuals for the actions of the ones in charge?

Whats the bet they are not offering any refunds either, so basically stealing from relatively poor Russian people who have done nothing wrong.

I think the west sees blood in the water, Russia is weak, everyone is piling on now, reason and common sense gone long ago.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Canceling Russia and isolating the average Russian citizen is a great strategy. I'm sure they'll rise up and overthrow the government in one week, maybe two, tops. They most certainly won't move to pirating everything MSFT, meanwhile fostering an even deeper resentment of the US.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Whats the bet they are not offering any refunds either, so basically stealing from relatively poor Russian people who have done nothing wrong.

I think the west sees blood in the water, Russia is weak, everyone is piling on now, reason and common sense gone long ago.

Rubles are not worth enough. When you have a worthless currency foreigners no longer want to sell you their goods.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Canceling Russia and isolating the average Russian citizen is a great strategy. I'm sure they'll rise up and overthrow the government in one week, maybe two, tops. They most certainly won't move to pirating everything MSFT, meanwhile fostering an even deeper resentment of the US.

They gonna pirate Azure? Shit, I wasn’t aware that this could be done. BRB gonna sail the seven seas. Can’t wait to have my own global distributed data Center setup by pirating!

 

[Craig of War]

Canceling Russia and isolating the average Russian citizen is a great strategy. I'm sure they'll rise up and overthrow the government in one week, maybe two, tops. They most certainly won't move to pirating everything MSFT, meanwhile fostering an even deeper resentment of the US.

Time to overthrow Putin they did it before in 1917-1923 it time for another Russian revolution

 

[CuNi]

Canceling Russia and isolating the average Russian citizen is a great strategy. I'm sure they'll rise up and overthrow the government in one week, maybe two, tops. They most certainly won't move to pirating everything MSFT, meanwhile fostering an even deeper resentment of the US.

People who knew how to pirate those programs before most likely did. This is more targeted a companies that already had workflows in said programs and in no way will a sys-admin of a large company be like "Yeah, let's totally torrent the office suit and use this keygen because what could go wrong amirite?". Yes, some will pirate it, but the massive majority will be left with needing to look for a alternative and relearn workflows in said program.

Even if we assume every Russian now overnight pirates the office suit etc. that still means at least a couple days that that employee is disrupted and the company makes a loss on that one.
And that is just for the software that you CAN install. Try that with the cloud-services that you potentially just lost. The time it'll take to setup those backends again on another platform + getting and restoring the backups will be a nightmare.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Try that with the cloud-services that you potentially just lost. The time it'll take to setup those backends again on another platform + getting and restoring the backups will be a nightmare.

Not to mention Amazon and Google will likely do the same thing, leaving no alternative platforms.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

So that people inside that country turn on their leaders when they see what they're losing.

Ah, so the US government is using Russian civilians as pawns in an attempt to overthrow a government it deems to be problematic. That has always worked out well in the past.

And don't for a second believe these things are being done for the good of the Ukrainian people. They're not.

 

[Craig of War]

Ah, so the US government is using Russian civilians as pawns in an attempt to overthrow a government it deems to be problematic. That has always worked out well in the past.

And don't for a second believe these things are being done for the good of the Ukrainian people. They're not.

Still better then Putin invading a country whatever way you feel there is no defending Putin here

 

[CuNi]

Not to mention Amazon and Google will likely do the same thing, leaving no alternative platforms.

True. Was just talking with a friend that now the pressure is on Sony to follow as well. I really do hope that this war ends as fast and peacefully as possible, but until than, man I wouldn't want to be a Russian citizen right now.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Ah, so the US government is using Russian civilians as pawns in an attempt to overthrow a government it deems to be problematic. That has always worked out well in the past.

And don't for a second believe these things are being done for the good of the Ukrainian people. They're not.

Why do you think this is all about the US government exactly?

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Russians, y’all gotta get Putin out of there before starfield drops.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Still better then Putin invading a country whatever way you feel there is no defending Putin here

Thanks tips. No one was defending Putin but thanks for coming out.

It's completely possible to dislike Putin's actions while questioning the actions of the leaders of other countries.

 

[Goalus]

with all these boycotts video game bootleg industry is coming back with a bang.

Only works for single player games.

 

[Craig of War]

Thanks tips. No one was defending Putin but thanks for coming out.

It's completely possible to dislike Putin's actions while questioning the actions of the leaders of other countries.

Ok so you would rather no sanctions and let Putin do whatever he wants right? nah stopping Putin and getting him the hell out of Ukraine is way more important then Russin being affected hell they need to sanctions him more now turn the Russian Economy back to the stone age maybe then they will rise up and take action against their dictator president

 

[Pedro Motta]

Putting more lives at risk.

Great logic from the comfy confines of the silicon valley belt.

Not getting an Xbox or getting nuked to oblivion. Which one puts more lives at risk?

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Thanks tips. No one was defending Putin but thanks for coming out.

It's completely possible to dislike Putin's actions while questioning the actions of the leaders of other countries.

You are litterally defending Putin, by trying to argue against the punishment he is receiving. You are making as much sense as Putin claiming "he doesn't have bad intentions".

At least lie less blatantly.

 

[Pallas]

I see a lot of people in this thread complaining about sanctions, and how they never really work as intended. You’re right somewhat, but invading a friendly sovereign country without provocation isn’t going to happen without some kind of consequences or retaliation.

Considering the alternative could drag all of Europe into a brutal war…

As for foreign companies leaving Russia, removing services, what did you expect? They do not want to be seen as profiting(though to be completely honest, it would be hard to profit from Russia at all currently) from a country and vice versa that’s invading a friendly sovereign country. Russia’s government brought this mess on themselves and have no one else to blame but themselves.

Yea it sucks for the common people but what else could EU/US/NATO, etc do that would resolve this?

 

[CityHunter1981]

Well I understand this decision, but I just wonder if this is the correct way. Most people in Russia are against the war and with this you just hurt these people. It’s not like Putin will care about it.

It seems for me the west wants to intentionally make the Russian people that unhappy in the hope they will start a rebellion and overthrow the government.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Well I understand this decision, but I just wonder if this is the correct way. Most people in Russia are against the war and with this you just hurt these people. It’s not like Putin will care about it.

It seems for me the west wants to intentionally make the Russian people that unhappy in the hope they will start a rebellion and overthrow the government.

I mean yeah, that’s kinda the whole point - force Putin to abandon the invasion because the invasion is destroying his own country. You don’t overthrow a warlord dictator by bending the knee.

 

[zcaa0g]

Has Microsoft ever stopped doing business with the US?

Has there been a legitimate reason to?

 

[zcaa0g]

Ah, so the US government is using Russian civilians as pawns in an attempt to overthrow a government it deems to be problematic. That has always worked out well in the past.

And don't for a second believe these things are being done for the good of the Ukrainian people. They're not.

Most of the world deems Putin as "problematic", don't you?

 

[MrFunSocks]

Most of the world deems Putin as "problematic", don't you?

There sure have been some bizarre hot takes in here haven’t there?!

“Putin and Russia should be left alone because no one is doing anything about China!”

 

[checkcola]

Meh. I never trust the motives of big tech when it comes to reactions to geopolitics.

 

[KURDISTAN YPG]

What a about iraq?
What a about a afghanistan?
What a sbout palestine?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Not getting an Xbox or getting nuked to oblivion. Which one puts more lives at risk?

I’m talking about “making the citizens lives so miserable, they try and overthrow their government”

More innocent bloodshed playing chess with peoples lives. Not big techs responsibility. Very selfish, apathetic and callous if that is the excuse people are running with.

Let the people decide on their own accord.

 

[NinersAllDay]

Not agreeing with the US government and invading a foreign country and killing civilians seems a little bit different, call me crazy.

Now do China with the Uighurs. MS competes for Federal contracts and wants to stay in the good graces of whatever regime is in power. On top of that they're trying to close a $70B acquisition. The US government today is essentially like what organized crime was in the 30s. You do what the mob wants and you'll have their blessing.

To buy and sell you need to have the mark of the beast these days.

 

[MrFunSocks]

I’m talking about “making the citizens lives so miserable, they try and overthrow their government”

More innocent bloodshed playing chess with peoples lives. Not big techs responsibility. Very selfish, apathetic and callous if that is the excuse people are running with.

Let the people decide on their own accord.

It’s not just about that though, it’s about forcing the government themselves to reevaluate their actions because of the consequences and the harm they are causing their own citizens.

Not to mention Ukraine are literally asking for help in this fashion…..

Russia are in the wrong here, and there is absolutely no debating it. None. They are invading a neighbouring country just because their dictator leader wants to own that country now. Any hurt that these companies are doing to the Russian citizens pales in to comparison to the hurt that Russia is causing to Ukraine.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

What a about iraq?
What a about a afghanistan?
What a sbout palestine?

Since you are not telling us to stop sactions on Russia by your own statement, there is nothing to say. You might as well be telling a kid to eat his vegetables because there are starving kids in Africa.
Look, the only reason we are using sanctions at all is because we can't invade a nuclear power. There is more efficent ways of dealing with the three small nations you are mentioning. We only organized sanctions for Russia because that was the only real option left. If Russia was not a nuclear power then it would literally be easier just to counter-invade and have Putin arrested.

 

[TheTony316]

Yes. Better to just leave them and let them invade Ukraine and do nothing. Or do you have a better idea?

Nuclear war, WW3? What's you amazing idea?

Go for Putin directly and stop buying russian oil.

 

[SeraphJan]

I don't see this doing any favor to stop the war, the only thing it does is hurting the innocent citizen in Russia even more.

 

[Kagey K]

Go for Putin directly and stop buying russian oil.

If only there was someone close to the US who could provide a large amount of energy for cheap.

Perhaps they could have found a means to transfer it underground reducing costs by more, and being able to offer more supply.

Surely you should shut that down, and depend on other means coming in by boat instead.

 

[Fess]

Well I understand this decision, but I just wonder if this is the correct way. Most people in Russia are against the war and with this you just hurt these people. It’s not like Putin will care about it.

It seems for me the west wants to intentionally make the Russian people that unhappy in the hope they will start a rebellion and overthrow the government.

This is simply people on big chairs from all over the world saying ”No more!” when it’s clear that the military is forced to sit on their hands doing nothing from nuclear threats.

I’d say it’s brilliant, it’s the counter move nobody expected. Putin can keep going as planned but he’ll have to face the consequences, his war will not only ruin Ukraine but Russia as well.

As the walls are closing in we can only hope that he’s still able to think rationally and ask himself ”Is it really worth all this?”.

 

[Nocturno999]

I swear this world keeps getting dumber.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

You are litterally defending Putin, by trying to argue against the punishment he is receiving. You are making as much sense as Putin claiming "he doesn't have bad intentions".

At least lie less blatantly.

You need to try and not be so emotional. Apparently your emotions have clouded your critical thinking skills to the point where the point I was trying to make, questioning the logic behind using civilians as pawns by fucking with their lives so badly in the hopes they overthrow their government, has been completely bastardized into "yOu'RE dEFenDinG puTin?!?!"

Don't be so dense.

 

[supernova8]

good. has sony done it yet?

edit: and anyone saying stuff like "why punish people because of putin?" or "that'll stop the war for sure!" don't know wtf they are talking about. get out your cave and join the real world.

Stopping oil, stopping SWIFT, and putting a stranglehold on the oligarchs are the only things they need to do. Everything else (like stopping selling Russian vodka, not selling new Xboxes etc.) is cosmetic and totally irrelevant.
Have you noticed how there hasn't been a coup in North Korea despite the western world cutting them off?

I know it's not exactly the same but remember Putin doesn't need the support of the Russian people he's been in power for literally 30 years (Medvev wasn't really in power he was keeping Putin's seat warm) and there are no real signs of him being pushed out. The Kremlin is notoriously brutal is stamping out opposition. Remember how they sent spies to poison and kill dissidents inside the UK? The UK responded but hardly.

There is a chance that it'll work but I think it's a small chance. I think most likely Russia will take Ukraine as Putin planned and then it'll be a case of "We've got Ukraine... what are you going to do about it? Yeah I thought so" just like what happened when Russia took Crimea and then pseudo-occupied Luhansk and Donetsk.

Also you should think about what the majority of *normal peaceful* people would do. The West has lived in relative peace for a long time. Most people have no idea how to fight or what death from war involves or looks like. Ukraine has been at war since 2014. Russia has not been at war (at least inside its own territory) so the threshold for some sort of uprising would be far higher.

 

[Low Moral Fibre]

I know most of the population is in the west but I wonder how the people in the east of Russia are feeling about all this. There are people in Russia that are 4500 miles away from the conflict (as the crow flies and like 6000 miles by road) while I’m only something like 1350 miles away in the UK. I’m closer to New York than some Russians are to Kyiv albeit there’s an ocean in my way.

People just minding their own business in Vladivostok about to have a real shit time.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Well, take your pick if government and corporate sanctions/banning of sales should continue:

Pro
- Pressure Russian gov to stop by economic drops, and having people fight back at their gov to stop
- Surely some corporate PR brownie pts

Con
- The average citizen with zero part of the conflict now have anything from currency/interest rate issues, services stopped, cant travel on plane, cant buy stuff

 

[DeepEnigma]

It’s not just about that though, it’s about forcing the government themselves to reevaluate their actions because of the consequences and the harm they are causing their own citizens.

Not to mention Ukraine are literally asking for help in this fashion…..

Russia are in the wrong here, and there is absolutely no debating it. None. They are invading a neighbouring country just because their dictator leader wants to own that country now. Any hurt that these companies are doing to the Russian citizens pales in to comparison to the hurt that Russia is causing to Ukraine.

Well, the extreme narrative is that he is a "madman who has gone crazy and psychotic who can push a nuclear button at any time..."

Idk about your experiences, but if one truly believes that, then one should not back a rabid dog into a corner.

We all lose in the end.

 

[Kagey K]

Well, the extreme narrative is that he is a "madman who has gone crazy and psychotic who can push a nuclear button at any time..."

Idk about your experiences, but if one truly believes that, then one should not back a rabid dog into a corner.

We all lose in the end.

I've been born and bred to be scared of the USSR (Russia) for a lifetime now.

If they are willing to fight a firefight over a reactor, they are ready to do anything.

Tge sanctions don't really matter to the elite, they are going to do what they want.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I've been born and bred to be scared of the USSR (Russia) for a lifetime now.

If they are willing to fight a firefight over a reactor, they are ready to do anything.

Tge sanctions don't really matter to the elite, they are going to do what they want.

That’s what I mean, my fear is that all of this extreme polarization over the last decade, 2015+ on hyperdrive, is literally now pouring gasoline on a fire in current year.

 

[Kagey K]

That’s what I mean, my fear is that all of this extreme polarization over the last decade, 2015+ on hyperdrive, is literally now pouring gasoline on a fire in current year.

I had hoped that good sense would prevail and some people would realize how easy they have it when arguing pronouns is the big deal of the day.

This skirmish, I thought would put things in a new perspective for them.

Seems to not be the case, and I don't think some realize just how serious of a threat this can be, if poor decisions are made.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I've been born and bred to be scared of the USSR (Russia) for a lifetime now.

If they are willing to fight a firefight over a reactor, they are ready to do anything.

Tge sanctions don't really matter to the elite, they are going to do what they want.

Well, we'll have to see what happens. Who knows what to believe. Seems like Ukraine is holding well, but Russian has also taken over stuff. Nobody exactly knows.

1. Do the current sanctions and Ukraine support and eventually Russia loses interest and enough resources where they give up. Crisis averted. No nukes and NATO didn't have to get involved as their policy says

2. Russia keeps going and wins Ukraine. Neighbours should had did more, but they stuck to #1 and now it's too late

3. Russia goes desperate and resorts to extremes like carpet bombing or gets so mad they nuke. Neighbours should had did more, but they stuck to #1 and now it's too late

Of course they could also do #4. NATO goes against their policy and sends troops and tanks to help.

 

[Kagey K]

Well, we'll have to see what happens. Who knows what to believe. Seems like Ukraine is holding well, but Russian has also taken over stuff. Nobody exactly knows.

1. Do the current sanctions and Ukraine support and eventually Russia loses interest and enough resources where they give up. Crisis averted. No nukes and NATO didn't have to get involved as their policy says

2. Russia keeps going and wins Ukraine. Neighbours should had did more, but they stuck to #1 and now it's too late

3. Russia goes desperate and resorts to extremes like carpet bombing or gets so mad they nuke. Neighbours should had did more, but they stuck to #1 and now it's too late

Of course they could also do #4. NATO goes against their policy and sends troops and tanks to help.

We are getting on the side of politics that are banned here, but I worry it's going to be 4. We let them take Ukrane and then they attack a Nato country.

All hell breaks liise after that and we lost Ukrane as an ally since we let them get wrecked.

 

[PeteBull]

I dont hate russians i just dont like putin so im not sure this decision is the right thing to do ( punishing russian citizens)

many of the russians like/support putin, as u could see with that russian gaf member who defends him here, bear in mind its not some random russian who has no access to internet nor doesnt know english and only gets his knowledge from highly cenzored russian goverment tv(coz every other newslet got taken down there, hell they even banned facebook recently for "spoutin anti russian info" legit reason), its a guy who like u and me has access to the internet and has all the info at his disposal, yet he still defends putin, if thats russian gaf member imagine how much worse can be avg russian mindset

 

[PeteBull]

Well I understand this decision, but I just wonder if this is the correct way. Most people in Russia are against the war and with this you just hurt these people. It’s not like Putin will care about it.

It seems for me the west wants to intentionally make the Russian people that unhappy in the hope they will start a rebellion and overthrow the government.

Most ppl in russia are pro putin as u got example in our own very russian gaf member who keeps defending him to a point he literally wrote huge wall of text post of lies, that required tons of effort and thoughts yet was done