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[Feel Like I'm On 42]

What? What else would they be playing? Of course, it was Perfect Dark.

• Drew Murray was working on the game
• He says The Initiative's Xbox game
• The Initiative was only working on 1 game

And the girl played for "an hour" which means it was a significant chunk of the game, available to play in a relatively polished state for a kid to enjoy.

Every evidence suggests that the game was being developed at an okay pace until 50% of the staff left The Initiative, and the game was assigned to Crystal Dynamics. It was most likely to rebooted. Otherwise, The Initiative started the game development in 2018. It'd be worse if the plan was to release the game 7 years later.

If that's not bad management then I don't know what is

You’re right but it’s short sighted and mostly why MS is getting railroaded lately. They should have spent money on timed deals for the near term while their 1st parties were developing games so they weren’t so desperate to announce projects that were 3-5 years out.

Sony's strategy of bolstering their already great lineup of games with timed exclusive deals has been brilliant. They've outclassed MS in terms of strategy and management at every turn this gen. Even something like having the Dual Sense controller and 3d audio was a stroke of genius because the people who own both platforms will be more likely to buy 3rd party games on the ps5, simply because it has those extra features.

I can't believe MS hasn't released their own controller with haptics yet. The only area that MS is doing better than Sony is with GamePass and whether that will be a success for them in the long term is unknown. Releasing their biggest games day and date on PC and Xbox might not be the smartest strategy either. Nobody can deny that Sony has an advantage selling ps5's simply because the only way to play a lot of their exclusives at launch is by owning a playstation.

I don't have the same faith in Phil Spencer as a lot of people seem to and I have been nothing but disappointed by MS this gen with the exception of GamePass being a great value. So many of the mistakes MS has made have been under Phil's leadership.

Halo, my favorite Xbox franchise has been so mishandled that it's at risk of being dead. Infinite should have been so much more and if the rumors are true, won't be getting single player dlc to turn it into the great Halo experience it should've been from the beginning. Gears and Forza have been the only things that have kinda sorta delivered and even those have many flaws. Gears of War and Halo should always be the "big deal" franchises for Xbox. They need to be unquestionably great. While both multiplayers are fun both games are mired in controversies and badly monetized.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Well, GamePass sustainability is already in serious doubt at the current model.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss GamePass on Playstation eventually. Microsoft could make an "Exclusive only" version of GamePass that only has their 1st party games and put them on Playstation, and I see no reason why Sony would be against that since they would get a cut out of that sub cost

That sub would fail.

Without third party games, why would any one keep that sub year round?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That sub would fail.

Without third party games, why would any one keep that sub year round?

Microsoft is trying to build up many GaaS titles, and with Zenimax they have a huge stable of developers and backlog of titles. For a price cheaper than normal gamepass, it could be a success.

I know Halo has its problems but if they turn it around and release on Playstation that opens up a big userbase.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Microsoft is trying to build up many GaaS titles, and with Zenimax they have a huge stable of developers and backlog of titles. For a price cheaper than normal gamepass, it could be a success.

I know Halo has its problems but if they turn it around and release on Playstation that opens up a big userbase.

Again though, who wants to sub to play these games? If people wanted to sub to gamepass so bad to play these games, they'd get a series s or series x and do it.

What price point are you trying to sell this sub for exactly?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Again though, who wants to sub to play these games? If people wanted to sub to gamepass so bad to play these games, they'd get a series s or series x and do it.

What price point are you trying to sell this sub for exactly?

I do?

That's the main reason I got an XSX and GamePass - to play exclusive Xbox games. Things look dire now from a software standpoint but they can turn it around with the amount of studios they have.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Microsoft is trying to build up many GaaS titles, and with Zenimax they have a huge stable of developers and backlog of titles. For a price cheaper than normal gamepass, it could be a success.

I know Halo has its problems but if they turn it around and release on Playstation that opens up a big userbase.

I would be pretty annoyed if MS released their marquee games on PlayStation. It would be a slap to the face of their customers and certainly spell the end of their hardware platform, which is unfortunate for anyone that has been invested there long term. Honestly they’ll do what’s best for the bottom line and I don’t fault them, but they’d have to go 3rd party for that to work without destroying their own console.

 

[gothmog]

Starfield is a needle mover. We’ve all laughed as MS hasn’t had a ton of system sellers this gen. That changes with Starfield. A game like that is what brings people into the ecosystem.

I'm not sure of that. Many of those who want it either have the console already or plan on playing it on PC. They'll obviously get a bump but I'm not sure this will cause them to fly off the shelves. Spider-Man 2 will probably sell more PS5s than Starfield will Xboxes.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I would be pretty annoyed if MS released their marquee games on PlayStation. It would be a slap to the face of their customers and certainly spell the end of their hardware platform, which is unfortunate for anyone that has been invested there long term. Honestly they’ll do what’s best for the bottom line and I don’t fault them, but they’d have to go 3rd party for that to work without destroying their own console.

Well I think them competing for console dominance is effectively over.

There's no way they will be anything but third place, barring some massive miscalculation by Sony or Nintendo when it comes to their follow up systems.

So to Nadella's point, they have to change direction so that they can be successful on different terms - one of those may be becoming multiplatform. I feel this is inevitable, even for Sony who are now embracing PC and we all thought that was impossible not too long ago.

 

[feynoob]

Well, GamePass sustainability is already in serious doubt at the current model.

The market indicates the current model is successful.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I'm not sure of that. Many of those who want it either have the console already or plan on playing it on PC. They'll obviously get a bump but I'm not sure this will cause them to fly off the shelves. Spider-Man 2 will probably sell more PS5s than Starfield will Xboxes.

Nah I don’t agree at all. Starfield is a needle mover. It’s a marquee Bethesda game. You forget how popular those games are? And it’s not relevant if Spider-Man 2 moves more consoles.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The market indicates the current model is successful.

The question was sustainable, not successful.

If a Sub service is growing massively, despite losing money, it can be seen as "successful". But GamePass subs are not growing as fast as MS wants, and we all know that funding all their developers year in and year out and offering their titles for a $10 monthly sub is not going to be "SUSTAINABLE..."

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I do?

That's the main reason I got an XSX and GamePass - to play exclusive Xbox games. Things look dire now from a software standpoint but they can turn it around with the amount of studios they have.

You kind of just proved my point though.

I said anyone who wants it that bad would have bought an XSS or XSX, which you did.

For them to sell a sub to the xbox market, it would have to be like 4-5 dollars a month or less, and they'd have to rotate their library so that it wasn't all available at once, meaning you'd probably have to drop it to like 3 dollars a month. At that point you're better off selling this stuff individually.

I think MCC would sell 10-20 million units. Gears of War trilogy would do well. Forza would struggle. Not really sure what else is left there...

 

[feynoob]

Well I think them competing for console dominance is effectively over.

There's no way they will be anything but third place, barring some massive miscalculation by Sony or Nintendo when it comes to their follow up systems.

So to Nadella's point, they have to change direction so that they can be successful on different terms - one of those may be becoming multiplatform. I feel this is inevitable, even for Sony who are now embracing PC and we all thought that was impossible not too long ago.

It doesn't make sense to make games locked on your console, considering there is a big market who has their own device.
Sony and MS are realizing that locking games to their system is stupid.

We currently have day1 for Xbox. It's matter of time for Sony to do the same.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Nah I don’t agree at all. Starfield is a needle mover. It’s a marquee Bethesda game. You forget how popular those games are? And it’s not relevant if Spider-Man 2 moves more consoles.

What was their best selling PS4 game?

 

[gothmog]

Nah I don’t agree at all. Starfield is a needle mover. It’s a marquee Bethesda game. You forget how popular those games are? And it’s not relevant if Spider-Man 2 moves more consoles.

It's a new Bethesda IP. It will sell well but Skyrim had Bethesda, Elder Scrolls, and the Viking setting going for it. There's no guarantee this will land with people as well as that game did.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It doesn't make sense to make games locked on your console, considering there is a big market who has their own device.
Sony and MS are realizing that locking games to their system is stupid.

We currently have day1 for Xbox. It's matter of time for Sony to do the same.

I don't think day 1 for Playstation AAA single player games is going to happen. PS5 is always going to be their baby and their focus, but I think old games need to be multiplatform, and multiplayer games need to be multiplatform.

How many times could Sony have had a Fortnite, but they locked the game to their platform, so it never really caught on.

Dreams could have been as big as Roblox. Roblox brings in 2 billion a year... Don't think Sony cares if they sell 100K less consoles but make that spread up on something like that.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

You kind of just proved my point though.

I said anyone who wants it that bad would have bought an XSS or XSX, which you did.

For them to sell a sub to the xbox market, it would have to be like 4-5 dollars a month or less, and they'd have to rotate their library so that it wasn't all available at once, meaning you'd probably have to drop it to like 3 dollars a month. At that point you're better off selling this stuff individually.

I think MCC would sell 10-20 million units. Gears of War trilogy would do well. Forza would struggle. Not really sure what else is left there...

I don't think that's true at all

You get an entire library of an entire platform holder. Many of their games are pretty long, Starfield being one of them. These are games many people could play for months and come back to. Not to mention GaaS type titles as well.

 

[feynoob]

The question was sustainable, not successful.

If a Sub service is growing massively, despite losing money, it can be seen as "successful". But GamePass subs are not growing as fast as MS wants, and we all know that funding all their developers year in and year out and offering their titles for a $10 monthly sub is not going to be "SUSTAINABLE..."

Gamepass isn't going to cover 100% of their games development. This thought of process needs to be thrown in the trash.

Currently Xbox has PC, Xbox store and gamepass as revenue. Meaning their studios are making more money than before (console exclusive).

Sea of theives alone had 5m steam sales, despite being day1 in the service.

If anything, gamepass and their sales can coexist.

So the idea that gamepass is making a loss for them is baseless.

It was before due to investment. But since it has reached the sustainable level, it won't lose them any money.

Again, their first party is still getting revenue from steam.

Your point would stand, if their games doesn't hit steam.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It doesn't make sense to make games locked on your console, considering there is a big market who has their own device.
Sony and MS are realizing that locking games to their system is stupid.

We currently have day1 for Xbox. It's matter of time for Sony to do the same.

You are confusing two different things.

Day1 is for Xbox for GamePass. It doesn't make sense for Sony to adopt that strategy. At all. Their games cost hundreds of millions to make and market. They are not going to put them on a cheap sub service Day 1.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Gamepass isn't going to cover 100% of their games development. This thought of process needs to be thrown in the trash.

Currently Xbox has PC, Xbox store and gamepass as revenue. Meaning their studios are making more money than before (console exclusive).

Sea of theives alone had 5m steam sales, despite being day1 in the service.

If anything, gamepass and their sales can coexist.

So the idea that gamepass is making a loss for them is baseless.

It was before due to investment. But since it has reached the sustainable level, it won't lose them any money.

Again, their first party is still getting revenue from steam.

Your point would stand, if their games doesn't hit steam.

If GamePass cannibalizes first party sales - like it DEMONSTRABLY has for Forza and Halo already -- then yes, it ABSOLUTELY will need to cover dev cost.

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

Neither Redfall or Forza are going to move the needle. And Starfield has a ceiling attached to it.

Okay, but how do you know this?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I don't think that's true at all

You get an entire library of an entire platform holder. Many of their games are pretty long, Starfield being one of them. These are games many people could play for months and come back to. Not to mention GaaS type titles as well.

I just think if you're going to keep the sub for months, you might as well have bought a series s or series x.

People who haven't/won't aren't interested in paying a sub on top of the games they plan to buy on PS5.

You still haven't told me a price, because I think deep down you agree with me.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I just think if you're going to keep the sub for months, you might as well have bought a series s or series x.

People who haven't/won't aren't interested in paying a sub on top of the games they plan to buy on PS5.

You still haven't told me a price, because I think deep down you agree with me.

There are people that will never buy an Xbox though. Multiconsole gamers is probably more rare than many think. It's just not worth it for them.

 

[feynoob]

I don't think day 1 for Playstation AAA single player games is going to happen. PS5 is always going to be their baby and their focus, but I think old games need to be multiplatform, and multiplayer games need to be multiplatform.

It will happen.
I remember when people said, Sony won't put their games on PC. Here we are now.

How many times could Sony have had a Fortnite, but they locked the game to their platform, so it never really caught on.

The time is different. Their is big money on the line now. The industry is making billion's of money.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

What was their best selling PS4 game?

If you know just tell me we don’t have to do this.

It's a new Bethesda IP. It will sell well but Skyrim had Bethesda, Elder Scrolls, and the Viking setting going for it. There's no guarantee this will land with people as well as that game did.

Game will be out relatively soon. Soon enough we don’t have to debate we can just wait and see.

 

[systemr123]

Bethesda plus these studios.

• ZeniMax Online Studios. ...
• id Software. ...
• Arkane Studios. ...
• Machine Games. ...
• Tango Gameworks. ...
• Alpha Dog Games. ...
• Roundhouse Studios.

That is enough output for Xbox.

It's why zenimax/deal was a good get for them, considering the current state with their studios.

Yes, Xbox has great output… oh wait…

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It will happen.
I remember when people said, Sony won't put their games on PC. Here we are now.


The time is different. Their is big money on the line now. The industry is making billion's of money.

Sony used to put their games on PC before, so not sure why anyone would say they'd never again.

But I just don't see Day 1. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised for sure.

You might see some stuff day 1 when there is a cross media buy-in, but the majority I think will always have a gap.

 

[feynoob]

If GamePass cannibalizes first party sales - like it DEMONSTRABLY has for Forza and Halo already -- then yes, it ABSOLUTELY will need to cover dev cost.

Again, look at sea of theives sales. 5m steam sales tells you different story.
We aren't even counting Xbox sales in this case.

As long as that data exist, gamepass won't cannibalize their sales.

People like to own their games. Until that habit changes, people would still buy the game in order to own them. Gamepass or not.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Again, look at sea of theives sales. 5m steam sales tells you different story.
We aren't even counting Xbox sales in this case.

As long as that data exist, gamepass won't cannibalize their sales.

People like to own their games. Until that habit changes, people would still buy the game in order to own them. Gamepass or not.

Sea of Thieves is your only example? That game is a GaaS title and doesn't depend on GamePass because it can be given away for free and makeup for it in other ways. I honestly don't know if it has brought in enough revenue to cover Rare's ongoing expense, since they don't really release games regularly anymore.

That's not necessarily the case for many of the other games.

 

[feynoob]

Yes, Xbox has great output… oh wait…

???
This is zenimax studios. Not Xbox. They have higher standards.

Sony used to put their games on PC before, so not sure why anyone would say they'd never again.

It was never their 1st party games. Then they changed it slowly. And now they are doing big guns.

But I just don't see Day 1. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised for sure.

You might see some stuff day 1 when there is a cross media buy-in, but the majority I think will always have a gap.

Time will tell. Sony is corporate. And like any corporate, they will want to maximize their sales.
The writing is on the wall.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

If you know just tell me we don’t have to do this.


Game will be out relatively soon. Soon enough we don’t have to debate we can just wait and see.

It was probably Fallout 4, but they've been caged about giving numbers.

Across all platforms, we're probably looking at under 20 million units.

I just don't think we're on the same page with how many people are going to play this on PC and how many are just going to play this on GamePass.

 

[feynoob]

Sea of Thieves is your only example? That game is a GaaS title and doesn't depend on GamePass because it can be given away for free and makeup for it in other ways. I honestly don't know if it has brought in enough revenue to cover Rare's ongoing expense, since they don't really release games regularly anymore.

That's not necessarily the case for many of the other games.

It matters, because that game was on gamepass.

As long as people want to buy the game, gamepass won't change their mind.

You can't say gamepass cannibalize those sales, and ignore this data.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It matters, because that game was on gamepass.

As long as people want to buy the game, gamepass won't change their mind.

You can't say gamepass cannibalize those sales, and ignore this data.

How much did Halo and Forza sell at retail?

 

[systemr123]

This is zenimax studios. Not Xbox. They have higher standards.

Not if it becomes MS, which is exactly which it will be after the acquisition if it goes through.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

???
This is zenimax studios. Not Xbox. They have higher standards.


It was never their 1st party games. Then they changed it slowly. And now they are doing big guns.


Time will tell. Sony is corporate. And like any corporate, they will want to maximize their sales.
The writing is on the wall.

that's not true, the 989 games used to go to PC. Those were firsty party games. Twisted Metal too iirc.

 

[tmlDan]

You need games.
While gamepass is the vocal point for the brand, you still need studios to turn those games.

With Bethesda, Xbox can finally solve their draught games.

They don't necessarily need first party though, i know we complain about Sony and their third party exclusives but they need to have more third party partners to fill the gaps in their production pipeline. Like Rise of Ronin, Sony has been funding and assisting development for 7 years, Xbox is just behind the ball - the only notable success (maybe?) is High on Life.

 

[feynoob]

How much did Halo and Forza sell at retail?

Forza sold 1.5+m day1 (I think it was founders pack). That was the estimate day1 people, who has previews.
Then you have the game being top 10 on weekly sales alot.

Halo campaign costed money on steam. The F2p was commercial disaster for Xbox, as they didn't get the revenues they were hoping for.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Forza sold 1.5+m day1 (I think it was founders pack). That was the estimate day1 people, who has previews.
Then you have the game being top 10 on weekly sales alot.

Halo campaign costed money on steam. The F2p was commercial disaster for Xbox, as they didn't get the revenues they were hoping for.

Forza was significantly less than previous entries in the series. Halo? Massively

GP revenue can't overcome that hurdle

 

[feynoob]

They don't necessarily need first party though, i know we complain about Sony and their third party exclusives but they need to have more third party partners to fill the gaps in their production pipeline. Like Rise of Ronin, Sony has been funding and assisting development for 7 years, Xbox is just behind the ball - the only notable success (maybe?) is High on Life.

Xbox has been shit on that department for a long time. It will take time before they are able to focus on that.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

what's up with all the Game Pass talk? is funny.

 

[Cheezewizz]

It's an interesting conversation. And there are a few reasons why these issues come up:

1) First, the probability of issues depend on how talented your in-house teams are, your production pipeline is, and the tools you've built over years of advancement and refinement. XGS currently lacks in almost all of these areas. On the other hand, PlayStation has these areas perfected, and they have an excellent xDev team. The same studios produce different quality of work when they work independently vs. when they work with PlayStation's xDev.

• For example, Sumo Digital produced the excellent Sackboy when working with PlayStation. Sumo Digital also produced the awful Crackdown 3 when working with XGS.
• Supermassive produced the highly acclaimed Until Dawn when working with PlayStation. They followed it up with the underwhelming The Dark Pictures when they worked without PlayStation.

2) Second, the production and quality of games also depend on the feedback from the publisher. If someone has experience making high-quality AAA games day in and day out, they can steer the ship more accurately. XGS currently doesn't have that experience.

Here is an example from Deviation Games, who are currently working with PlayStation Studios, on the type of feedback they receive and benefit from PlayStation.


Hermen Hulst, Head of PlayStation Studios, on this process of external development with Deviation Games:


Imagine having a streamlined production pipeline as well as access to teams Guerrilla, Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, Sucker Punch, and Insomniac. That's a dream come true that will improve the quality of the game.

However, if your own in-house teams are struggling, you can't provide that level of support to external developers. What would CD learn from 343i, Undead Labs, The Initiative, etc.?

This absolutely nails it. One of the upsides to Sony's way of doing things is that it makes for an incredibly streamlined process. The way Sony shares tech, info, and ideas across it's in-house studios (as well as third party ones that may be working with them) is a one of primary reasons they are able to release games so reliably, and with so little issues.

I've complained about Sony and the drawbacks to having such a process in place previously. That doesn't mean there's no benefits though, and this is absolutely one of them.

 

[feynoob]

Forza was significantly less than previous entries in the series. Halo? Massively

GP revenue can't overcome that hurdle

That is steam
https://gamesensor.info/news/forza_horizon_5
https://gamesensor.info/app/1551360

 

[Cheezewizz]

End result matters though and ND don’t disappoint their core fan base but a lot of Xbox Studios have.

A lot?

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

I wonder if Xbox should hold off putting first party games day 1 on gamepass. Maybe wait a month after. Would that help with retail and digital sales?

Though I do know that a big benefit of GP is day 1 first party. Still was wondering.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Microsoft Game Studios's incompetence continues.

Managers within MS's first-party publishing house need to all be fired and replaced, starting with Matt Booty.

 

[Corndog]

There are people that will never buy an Xbox though. Multiconsole gamers is probably more rare than many think. It's just not worth it for them.

There are a lot of console plus pc gamers.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

I can't imagine how things would be at Xbox if they hadn't acquired Bethesda. A lot of the big XGS games were announced before the generation even started and we still have no clue when they'll be released. Good timing with the acquisition, I guess.
I just hope Xbox doesn't try to compensate for the (still unconfirmed) management issues by trying to acquire every existing and under development IP under the sun just to be able to compete.

 

[Jesb]

I had no idea CD had anything to do with perfect dark. It’s funny because the last game went through hell and back. It’s happening again? Lol.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Microsoft Game Studios's incompetence continues.

Managers within MS's first-party publishing house need to all be fired and replaced, starting with Matt Booty.

could you say Matt needs to be kicked.... in the booty?

 

[Punished Miku]

could you say Matt needs to be kicked.... in the booty?

All I know is I watched a 30 min interview with him and he seems very likable. Seems intelligent and humble. I didnt come away from the interview wishing he was fired. No one here has any clue what he does at work.