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MLB '12-'13 OffSeason OT: Magic is the New Market Inefficiency

A

aFIGurANT

Member
It was a comment on the fact that whenever 3B is brought up, people start saying "HEY you know who really SUCKS at playing 3B??? I bet you don't: Miguel Cabrera - he is TERRBIEL YOU GUYS."

Which isn't really what was said on the last page, but more or less yeah that was the implication as soon as another player that played a little 3rd base was brought up. And to the point, we don't know if either of these guys is going to the HoF or not since one is still playing, so I was just saying that hey some people do like this Edgar guy and we'll see, I guess.
 
C

cashman

Banned
OMG OMG OMG

The Phillies have some interest in Rangers infielder Michael Young. They are looking for a third base although it is not their highest priority. The Phillies need an outfielder and a right-handed bat. But they have been striking out in some of their targets, including B.J. Upton and Angel Pagan.

The Yankees are also looking for a third baseman now that Alex Rodriguez is expected to miss at least the first three months of the season because of hip surgery. General manager Brian Cashman said the Yankees are looking for third base help but added it’s a tough market for that position. The Yankees also expect to get Rodriguez back by mid-season and may settle for a temporary replacement.

The Rangers did not come to Nashville looking to move Young. He also can veto any trade to any team. But the Rangers have listened and talked to teams about Young in the past.
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http://trsullivan.mlblogs.com/2012/12/03/phillies-have-some-interest-in-young/
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Well Cabrera does suck at playing 3rd Base.

edit: at least he can hit, unlike Michael Young.
 
A

aFIGurANT

Member
Windu said:
Well Cabrera does suck at playing 3rd Base.
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Yeah, no one said he has good range or anything, but he has a role.... Not trying to be hostile on here but it's too bad that anyone that owes their fantasy league championship to the guy or even just likes him/Detroit in general is like some neanderthal in the eyes of the thread.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Ninja Scooter said:
If only Edgar had played a shitty 3B and cost his team runs and wins that way, he'd clearly be good enough player to make the Hall of Fame (and win the 2012 MVP apparently)
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I miss my Edgar is cool poster I had when I was a kid
 
C

cashman

Banned
aFIGurANT said:
Yeah, no one said he has good range or anything, but he has a role.... Not trying to be hostile on here but it's too bad that anyone that owes their fantasy league championship to the guy or even just likes him/Detroit in general is like some neanderthal in the eyes of the thread.
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying he's a bad player.
 
Dominican Power

Dominican Power

Member
aFIGurANT said:
Yeah, no one said he has good range or anything, but he has a role.... Not trying to be hostile on here but it's too bad that anyone that owes their fantasy league championship to the guy or even just likes him/Detroit in general is like some neanderthal in the eyes of the thread.
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<3 Miggy
 
A

aFIGurANT

Member
Yeah, he's like the opposite of that in my opinion. Sort of like this Edgar Martinez's numbers suggest at a quick glance...seven years straight .990 or greater OPS. That seems worthy of a lot of praise to me. Can't believe I don't recognize the name at all, actually, since every kid my age was watching the HR hitters avidly back then.
 
B

BigJonsson

Member
Edgar Martinez won me many fantasy baseball leagues, he'd always fly under the radar since he was only eligible as a DH....but damn, he was consistently productive
 
S

Sharp

Member
aFIGurANT said:
Yeah, no one said he has good range or anything, but he has a role.... Not trying to be hostile on here but it's too bad that anyone that owes their fantasy league championship to the guy or even just likes him/Detroit in general is like some neanderthal in the eyes of the thread.
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I think everyone in this thread thinks he's a great player. Hell, I think I called him one of the most underrated players in the game at one point (before the Triple Crown obviously). He didn't deserve to win the MVP this year but none of us were pissed off at him, just at the BBWAA. He's been one of the best hitters in the game for a long time now and bar steroid revelations he is pretty much a HoF lock.

(But he is still a shitty third baseman).
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
BigJonsson said:
Edgar Martinez won me many fantasy baseball leagues, he'd always fly under the radar since he was only eligible as a DH....but damn, he was consistently productive
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honestly dude was a technician
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
aFIGurANT said:
It was a comment on the fact that whenever 3B is brought up, people start saying "HEY you know who really SUCKS at playing 3B??? I bet you don't: Miguel Cabrera - he is TERRBIEL YOU GUYS."

Which isn't really what was said on the last page, but more or less yeah that was the implication as soon as another player that played a little 3rd base was brought up. And to the point, we don't know if either of these guys is going to the HoF or not since one is still playing, so I was just saying that hey some people do like this Edgar guy and we'll see, I guess.
Click to expand...

THe point I was trying to make was that the same people that will not consider Edgar for the HoF are probably the same ones that gave Miggy props for playing 3B, even though he did it horribly. If Edgar played years of bad, negative 1B or 3B would that suddenly make him HoF worthy? In many voters eyes it would, just like they justified giving Cabrera the MVP because he "selflessly" moved to 3B even though he was below average and actually cost his team runs and games in the field (so Valuable, right?)
 
C

cashman

Banned
Lambtron said:
And Evan Grant will wash his balls in his columns all year about what a team player he is.
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Grant.jpg
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Fox318 said:
I want to see Edgar get in but I simply believe he won't because he was a dh.
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Anyone who doubts he should be in should just look at his 1995 season, that is HoF stuff right there...
 
Y

yankeehater

Member
Mr. Enigma said:
Goddamn. Pagan got paid.

Phillies almost have to go after Hamilton now.
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I hope so but a Phils reporter at the winter meetings said he has talked to several people with the team that feel Hamiltons body is older then its real age of 31 and they dont want to invest big money in a guy that is going to break down. He also said that the Phils dont think Young will waive his NTC to come to Philly.
 
L

Little Green Yoda

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
THe point I was trying to make was that the same people that will not consider Edgar for the HoF are probably the same ones that gave Miggy props for playing 3B, even though he did it horribly. If Edgar played years of bad, negative 1B or 3B would that suddenly make him HoF worthy? In many voters eyes it would, just like they justified giving Cabrera the MVP because he "selflessly" moved to 3B even though he was below average and actually cost his team runs and games in the field (so Valuable, right?)
Click to expand...
They actually have pretty similar career rate stats.

But I don't know if a straight up comparison would work all that well. A full time DH has the benefit of having more time to focus on hitting and not have to worry about getting injuries in the field (talking more about the minor stuff that accumulates over the grind of a 162 game season more than DL type stuff). All of which should make that player more productive at the plate.

And even though Miggy was a pretty lousy 3B last year, he didn't quite rate as awful. His bat at 3B more than makes up the difference between his bad defense at 3B and his mediocre defense at 1B. It allowed his team to add another big bat in the lineup.

I never saw Edgar play - would he have been passable in the field on a regular basis?
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Little Green Yoda said:
They actually have pretty similar career rate stats.

But I don't know if a straight up comparison would work all that well. A full time DH has the benefit of having more time to focus on hitting and not have to worry about getting injuries in the field (talking more about the minor stuff that accumulates over the grind of a 162 game season more than DL type stuff). All of which should make that player more productive at the plate.

And even though Miggy was a pretty lousy 3B last year, it doesn't quite rate as awful. His bat at 3B more than makes up the difference between his bad defense at 3B and his mediocre defense at 1B. Plus, it allowed his team to add another big bat in the lineup.

I never saw Edgar play - would he have been passable in the field on a regular basis?
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Doesn't matter if he "Makes up for it", he is costing them runs and games by playing in the field. He is a net negative defender. Giving him credit just for being out there, when he is actually hurting his team, is stupid when we are comparing players for MVP or the HoF.
 
C

clemenx

Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
Doesn't matter if he "Makes up for it", he is costing them runs and games by playing in the field. He is a net negative defender. Giving him credit just for being out there, when he is actually hurting his team, is stupid when we are comparing players for MVP or the HoF.
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While I agree with what you're saying, if we use WAR, he actually helped the team even if he sucked at 3B. If he had the same offensive season in 1B or DH he would've had like 1 less win. And given his past seasons at 1B I think it's safe to assume that his UZR would've been as bad as 1B. I'm actually surprised he wasn't Adam Dunn bad at 3B.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
clemenx said:
While I agree with what you're saying, if we use WAR, he actually helped the team even if he sucked at 3B. If he had the same offensive season in 1B or DH he would've had like 1 less win. And given his past seasons at 1B I think it's safe to assume that his UZR would've been as bad as 1B. I'm actually surprised he wasn't Adam Dunn bad at 3B.
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Yeah but I'm sure if he and the Mariners really wanted it, Edgar could have been a shitty 1B or 3B like so many other guys that are or will be in the HoF. That's what I'm trying to say. If he had played in the field and actually HURT his team, he'd be in the Hall of Fame? That makes no sense.
 
J

jman2050

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Yeah but I'm sure if he and the Mariners really wanted it, Edgar could have been a shitty 1B or 3B like so many other guys that are or will be in the HoF. That's what I'm trying to say. If he had played in the field and actually HURT his team, he'd be in the Hall of Fame? That makes no sense.
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The whole point behind positional adjustments in WAR is that offensive replacement level at 3B is a lot worse than replacement level at DH. Yes, he'd actively hurt his team by playing bad 3B defense but that's offset by the fact that, on a theoretical level, a batter replacing him at DH will be a better hitter than whatever replaces 3B if Edgar were at DH.

That's why it's not as simple as saying "Oh, he sucks in the field so he'll be more valuable at DH." Now in Edgar's particular case you could easily argue he loses more runs playing third than he gains just by playing third in the first place, and I'd tend to agree, but you first have to determine if, in the theoretical case, Edgar actually IS hurting his team by playing third.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Sanjuro said:
Edgar does not belong in the HoF. ROIDS.
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Griffey and Gar were roid free, I'd bet your mother on that!

Little Green Yoda said:
They actually have pretty similar career rate stats.

But I don't know if a straight up comparison would work all that well. A full time DH has the benefit of having more time to focus on hitting and not have to worry about getting injuries in the field (talking more about the minor stuff that accumulates over the grind of a 162 game season more than DL type stuff). All of which should make that player more productive at the plate.

And even though Miggy was a pretty lousy 3B last year, he didn't quite rate as awful. His bat at 3B more than makes up the difference between his bad defense at 3B and his mediocre defense at 1B. It allowed his team to add another big bat in the lineup.

I never saw Edgar play - would he have been passable in the field on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

Gar could have been an ok 1st baseman, he has played there before.. He would have been Miggy bad(tm) at 3rd
 
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