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MLB - Official 2012 Season Thread: Mike Francesa Fan Club |OT3|

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Macattk15

Member
Took em long enough. Now get someone who can hit homeruns.

Thank god. Hope it helps. That LF Power Alley is coming in quite a bit.

54078_10151189781163979_1830738073_o.jpg

Sorry Vargas.

"Also, the hand-operated scoreboard that currently makes for a 16-foot-high wall to clear will be moved elsewhere, leaving the wall 8-feet-high."

Interesting also.
 

Zee-Row

Banned
Sucks that the best pitching staff in baseball won't be in the postseason. Joe Maddon shouldn't of been so loyal to Pena.
 

zulux21

Member
No deal. They both suck equally, but Dunn is about six months away from both of his knees crumbling into dust and every single one of his intervertebral discs forcefully shooting out of his back.

but but dunn has 40 plus home runs this season (good for like 5th)... obviously he is the home run hitter of Seattle's dream.

I am really hoping the new GM of the white sox doesn't get obsessed with a left handed power bat like the old one was. I am really sick of these left handed power hitters that strike out over 125 times in a season. Im tired of the white sox offense depending on them to hit home runs instead of doing the small things like moving runners. Above all else though I am sick and tired of watching the opposing defense put on such a wild shift that if the batter put down a bunt and got it with in 20 feet of third base they would have a free single and them not taking it :/

If Dunn bunted the ball towards third base when ever they put on the shift he would likely have 20-30 more hits (assuming he isn't completely incompetent at bunting but if he practiced it should be fine.) as worst case they move someone over there to stop it but that of course would remove a defender from the shift and increase the odds the ball goes through over there, it's absolutely nothing but win @_@

Sucks that the best pitching staff in baseball won't be in the postseason. Joe Maddon shouldn't of been so loyal to Pena.

are the rays losing any pitchers of importance in the off season?
if not there is always next year... plus maybe longo will stay healthy for the whole season... that would sure change things lol
 

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
Sucks that the best pitching staff in baseball won't be in the postseason. Joe Maddon shouldn't of been so loyal to Pena.

There really werent any alternatives to Pena.

The one move Joe should have made eons ago was moving Zobrist to SS and keeping Keppinger at 2B. The black hole at SS for most of the season absolutely killed the team.

Really though if Evan Longoria played another 5-10 games this year this team is making the playoffs. Him not staying healthy and missing all those games was killer.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
It's 'MVP' not best WAR.
who said I would need WAR to decide the MVP? If you think I just automatically look at WAR and go "He's the MVP!" then you are wrong. What I do is I research it and decide who is the overall best player based on all parts of the game. And I certainly don't judge it on team performance.

The point of Wins Above Replacement is to have a glanceable statistic to get a rough idea of how well a player has performed overall, it is not the end all be all.
 
There really werent any alternatives to Pena.

The one move Joe should have made eons ago was moving Zobrist to SS and keeping Keppinger at 2B. The black hole at SS for most of the season absolutely killed the team.

Really though if Evan Longoria played another 5-10 games this year this team is making the playoffs. Him not staying healthy and missing all those games was killer.

Every team in the AL East had to deal with a lot of injuries.
 

Maxim726X

Member
who said I would need WAR to decide the MVP? If you think I just automatically look at WAR and go "He's the MVP!" then you are wrong. What I do is I research it and decide who is the overall best player based on all parts of the game. And I certainly don't judge it on team performance.

The point of Wins Above Replacement is to have a glanceable statistic to get a rough idea of how well a player has performed overall, it is not the end all be all.

?

What are you basing it on then? Higher OPS, higher SLG%, Higher BA, more RBI, more HRs... And he didn't have a pedestrian last month like Trout did. Defense? Stolen bases? Educate me.
 

zulux21

Member
so since it's being debated so much with most valuable player... should contributions beyond stats be taken into account? For example if you have two players. player A who has slightly worse overall stats and player B who has slightly better stats, but player A also actively mentored the younger players and helped them become better players while player B was the type who would go up to a rookie pitcher and say "you know you have a flaw in your delivery" and not say anything more just to screw with the guy and in general ruined team chemistry should this also be taken into account?

I mean if one player is actively trying to make your team as a whole better, is he not more valuable for your organization then someone who is actively screwing with people? I am not saying this is the case with cabrera and trout, but curious if in general you would take something like that into account.

more of a how do you truly determine value lol.
 
There were only 3 teams in the AL East this year. Yankees dealt with a lot of injuries. Rays did too. Don't care about that other team.

Right, that's my point, every team has injuries, so it's pointless to sit around pondering the 'woulda coulda shouldas'.

It should also be noted that a good part of the reason the Red Sox and especially the Blue Jays were so bad this year was due to injuries.

I mean, you can say, "if Longoria played 5 more games, the Rays make the playoffs." One could also say that if Jason Hammel(the O's best starter) hadn't missed most of the season, they would have won 5 more games. Not to mention losing their most consistent hitter(Markakis) twice for extended periods.

Imagine where the Yankees would be if not for the loss of Rivera and missing A-Rod and T-Bag for a good part of the season.

The Rays got off pretty easy with the injuries considering the circumstances, I'd say.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
?

What are you basing it on then? Higher OPS, higher SLG%, Higher BA, more RBI, more HRs... And he didn't have a pedestrian last month like Trout did. Defense? Stolen bases? Educate me.
hitting, defense, baserunning. Basically the complete package.

Hitting. The best statistic to look at is wRC+. It is like OPS but it is adjusted for park, adjusted for league and weighted correctly. It is adjusted to be easy to read, about 100 is avg. (actually 96 this year).

Trout leads the Majors in hitting with a 175 wRC+. Cabrera is 3rd at 166 (well basically 2nd, braun is at 167). So by the best offensive statistic out there, Trout is the better hitter.

Ok then lets look at baserunning, just by looking at stolen bases alone (Trout 48 sb, 4 cs and Cabrera 4 sb and 1 cs). Not to mention Trout being able to go first to third on a single etc... (don't have the numbers in front of me but I think we can all agree that trout is the much better baserunner). I mean come on, 48 sbs and only 4 cs! come on.

And now fielding. Both CF and 3B are important defensive positions. (catcher being the most important and then SS and then after that CF/2B/3B). Now from scouting reports and from statistics like Ultimate Zone Rating and Defensive Runs Saved, Trout is considered a above average fielder and Cabrera a below average defender.

So what I see when I research it is that Trout is the superior hitter (not by much), superior baserunner (not even close) and the superior fielder (not even close). This shouldn't even be a debate. Trout should be unanimous. And about the team performance deal (lets just ignore that the angels have the better record and the tigers would be in 4th place in the AL west), if Cabrera was a above avg fielder like trout and a great baserunner like trout I have a feeling the tigers would have already clinched.

the only thing Cabrera has over Trout is that he has played more games, and that should absolutely be weighed in the "debate". but its just not enough to push him over the top.
 
Not solely based on WAR, like I just fucking said?
Do you value WAR at all?

Because Trout has a fairly substantial lead over the runner up in both kinds of WAR. If it were closer (like the NL MVP race), it'd be easier to dismiss the WAR leader due to error margins and the imperfection of a single stat trying to capture every relevant aspect of baseball.
 
Ben Sheets has announced he will retire from baseball after tomorrow's start against the Pirates.

Sucks. The dude really saved the Braves' ass in that period between Beachy getting injured and Medlen getting moved in the rotation.
 
hitting, defense, baserunning. Basically the complete package.

Hitting. The best statistic to look at is wRC+. It is like OPS but it is adjusted for park, adjusted for league and weighted correctly. It is adjusted to be easy to read, about 100 is avg. (actually 96 this year).

Trout leads the Majors in hitting with a 175 wRC+. Cabrera is 3rd at 166 (well basically 2nd, braun is at 167). So by the best offensive statistic out there, Trout is the better hitter.

Ok then lets look at baserunning, just by looking at stolen bases alone (Trout 48 sb, 4 cs and Cabrera 4 sb and 1 cs). Not to mention Trout being able to go first to third on a single etc... (don't have the numbers in front of me but I think we can all agree that trout is the much better baserunner). I mean come on, 48 sbs and only 4 cs! come on.

And now fielding. Both CF and 3B are important defensive positions. (catcher being the most important and then SS and then after that CF/2B/3B). Now from scouting reports and from statistics like Ultimate Zone Rating and Defensive Runs Saved, Trout is considered a above average fielder and Cabrera a below average defender.

So what I see when I research it is that Trout is the superior hitter (not by much), superior baserunner (not even close) and the superior fielder (not even close). This shouldn't even be a debate. Trout should be unanimous. And about the team performance deal (lets just ignore that the angels have the better record and the tigers would be in 4th place in the AL west), if Cabrera was a above avg fielder like trout and a great baserunner like trout I have a feeling the tigers would have already clinched.

I have no idea how one could argue against any of that. And I don't even mind Cabrera winning, he's obviously had an amazing year.

But some of you guys are basically trying to measure grit or something.
 
I have no idea how one could argue against any of that. And I don't even mind Cabrera winning, he's obviously had an amazing year.

But some of you guys are basically trying to measure grit or something.
You can't measure GRIT. That's the eye test, great
white
players like Trot Nixon, Kevin Milar.... GRIT!!!
 
HAH! I knew the race card was coming. Never change, Gaf.
Hey it's been a longtime point of contention in this thread that non-white players can't have grit because they actually have talent. I forgot who posted it, but it was posted like 3 years ago in the postseason thread (I think).
Jason Bay has...GRIT!!!
Look at this gritty player. LOOK AT HIM!!!

New+York+Mets+Announce+Jason+Bay+KqqfkFkdP66l.jpg


oh god why can't we get rid of him... c'mon Royals Mets will take Francoeur back for Bay!
 
Ben Sheets has announced he will retire from baseball after tomorrow's start against the Pirates.

Sucks. The dude really saved the Braves' ass in that period between Beachy getting injured and Medlen getting moved in the rotation.

I'm glad he made it back one last time. Watching him in 2004 was a fucking event every start. If it wasn't for our putrid...well, everything else that year that brought his win total down, he would've saved the Cy Young from being tainted by Clemens' steroid-soaked ass.
 
Dammit, now I'll have to look through last year's thread this week. Oh the gems I will find :D

Do any of you go over the previous season threads every now and then? I still remember hilarious incidents over the years like Jon's "Howard more clutch than Utley" posts, ROCKTOBER, various YEAR OF UMPS calls and other lols.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Dammit, now I'll have to look through last year's thread this week. Oh the gems I will find :D

Do any of you go over the previous season threads every now and then? I still remember hilarious incidents over the years like Jon's "Howard more clutch than Utley" posts, ROCKTOBER, various YEAR OF UMPS calls and other lols.
every now and then I go through them.
 

cashman

Banned
Dammit, now I'll have to look through last year's thread this week. Oh the gems I will find :D

Do any of you go over the previous season threads every now and then? I still remember hilarious incidents over the years like Jon's "Howard more clutch than Utley" posts, ROCKTOBER, various YEAR OF UMPS calls and other lols.

I look through some of then every now and then.
 

zulux21

Member
Hitting. The best statistic to look at is wRC+. It is like OPS but it is adjusted for park, adjusted for league and weighted correctly. It is adjusted to be easy to read, about 100 is avg. (actually 96 this year).

Trout leads the Majors in hitting with a 175 wRC+. Cabrera is 3rd at 166 (well basically 2nd, braun is at 167). So by the best offensive statistic out there, Trout is the better hitter.

I have no idea how one could argue against any of that. And I don't even mind Cabrera winning, he's obviously had an amazing year.

But some of you guys are basically trying to measure grit or something.
Actually I do have an idea of how to argue against part of that and will do so now. You say the best stat to look at is wRC+, thinking about it though personally I think that for a purpose of this award it is a completely useless stat and there isn't even remotely a point to look at it.

You say that "adjusted for league and weighted correctly" but the simple fact is it's completely impossible for such a stat to be weighted correctly. You can make your best estimation but the fact is that that is indeed all it is an estimation. You take Cabrera and throw him in the exact situations trout was in the end result will be different from the situations he was in, but no matter how common a trend it doesn't mean they would end up the way it's estimated in wRC+. The fact is in a different situation Cabrera likely would approach the at bat differently which of course means that adjusting how he did in one situation to another meaningless.

Now that is not to say there isn't merit to the stat overall (in fact I like the stat), but to judge a person's season it should be based on facts not guesses. OPS is based off facts that happened and when you look at facts and not guesses cabrera is leading 1.001 to .963. The award is about who was most valuable, not who was potentially the most valuable.

with that said I still think the best overall player in the AL was trout, but there is indeed more than one way to define value, and there is little doubt that if cabrera wins the triple crown that the people voting for the MVP will feel the triple crown is more valuable then trout's stolen bases/fielding.
 
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