Mr. Enigma
Member
Rays have agreed with Jose Molina on a 2-year, $4.5 million deal.
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MLB Offseason '13-'14 |OT| Where the best fans live
- Thread starter Corran Horn
- Start date
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
A cheater turned down 20 plus million? Yeah right. Im sure his whole purpose of cheating was to play where he wanted to play and not money.
It's also very convenient for someone who is a St. Louis Cardinals fan, lets not forget that. I'm just mocking the fans who showed up in time for the World Series to cry poor.
Same fans who were crying for a "real" shortstop. Technically, you guys got the best available one.
Little Green Yoda
Member
There's a ton of gray area between poor and rich, between small market teams and large market teams. The Cards reside in this gray area.
Looking at the price tag they were willing to go on Pujols, they are not in a gray area. They certainly have the bank, the ability to be one of the top teams in spending. If they want to spend that amount or scale back due to the context in their division, it's their own priority. The notion that they are handcuffed is the foolish one.
Dominican Power
Member
What's the point of going on these PED witch hunts if dudes are still going to get paid?
Little Green Yoda
Member
I don't think it was ever confirmed what their final offer to Pujols was. I've heard anywhere from an incentive-laden deal with less guaranteed money/years to a 10 year deal with AAV around 25M with a bunch of backloading/deferred payments. We only know that Pujols was offended by the Cards' final offer and found the respect he was looking for in Arte Moreno.
Rest assured, the Cards would be handcuffed if Albert had signed with them for 10/200+. Their shitty TV deal with FSMW (until 2017?) will always keep them one step behind the NY/LA/BOS teams. Hopefully, the TV deal bubble doesn't burst until after that contract is renegotiated.
Nice touch adding Boston into the "were one step behind" teams.
Mr. Enigma
Member
Selig wants tougher penalties but the Union is blocking that (which is their job). Selig wants a 100-game penalty for first-time offenders, which would have totally fucked Peralta here.
Little Green Yoda
Member
I probably should've added DET to the list as well. And the Phillies. Probably the CHI teams as well. The Cards were 11th in payroll last year after all. Not poor but definitely not a spending powerhouse.
...because you don't regularly need to be a spending powerhouse. I think the only team with a higher payroll than you was the Cubs, largely due to the reason that they are the Cubs.
Little Green Yoda
Member
To win the division? Agreed. But the Cards' goal is set a little higher than winning the division at this point so they'll have to compete with the big spenders eventually in the playoffs to win the title.
I get that the AL East is a ridiculously competitive division while the NL Central has traditionally only 2 good teams in any given year.
Apparently you don't, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this still!
You are a top five team in the NL spending. It's simple as that. The Dodgers are the crazy exception, but they are largely competing against themselves here.
The Cardinals are competitive most years, have success in the postseason. There is very little incentive to break that mold if it continues to work or alters viewership.
Little Green Yoda
Member
4th in the NL in 2013 spending, with WAS and CIN pretty close behind them. The Cubs will be up there once their prospects start reaching the majors in the next 2-3 years. Maybe the Mets will get there as well but I have no idea how they're recovering financially from Madoff. Those teams are roughly in the same payroll tier, with MIL/ARI/ATL being a clear step below. The LAD/PHI/SFG teams are well above this spending tier.
Agreeing that the Cards don't have to stop doing what they've been doing as long as they're competitive.
Agreeing that the Cards don't have to stop doing what they've been doing as long as they're competitive.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Great signing. Especially if they trade Price and the rotation gets even younger.
I love watching Molina behind the plate. Dude is in a league of his own when it comes to pitch framing.
what? They'll be paid under a mill for the first few years in the big leagues.
Little Green Yoda
Member
I meant that once their prospects arrive, they'll have more incentive to spend in free agency. No reason to throw money around to upgrade a 70 win team to a 75 win team. Different calculus if their prospects push them to the part of the win curve where a playoff spot is imminent.
turnbuckle
Member
There is 0% chance of this being true.
Dominican Power
Member
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer...rew-ellsbury-while-pressing-for-a-cano-confab
Nothing stops this train.
Nothing stops this train.
What evidence do I need?
I know where they are in terms of payroll and I know they fluctuate more than most teams season to season. That tells me they have the bank to spend, but are smarter than most teams in terms of efficiency based upon their results.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
You need to show that they run significant operating margins such that increasing payroll would not incur losses.
Here is evidence that they typically 10-20M operating margins, as I stated. You are correct that there have been years where they run significantly more surplus (it looks like next year will be such a case), but they also have had years where they have explicitly lost money (such as 2004-2005). In aggregate, they cannot spend considerably more without losing money based on the financial reports I've seen.
I don't need to show that, because my point was never suggesting they should go over budget and incur losses.
I take objection to "poor" Cardinals fans saying they don't have enough money to compete. This entire argument has been about me saying "Hey, Cardinals can spend some money." and the fans saying "Hey, we are a low payroll team.". They are top five in payroll. That is a fact.
I wish the Cardinals could spend $400 million on their payroll, win a World Series, make every St. Louis fan happy. I'm sleeping with one! I'm sure as shit not making her happy, especially after this post-season.
Can we all just agree with the real thrust of the STL debate? The Cardinals are the best-run organization to ever exist in sports. There, I said it.
People freaking out about Peralta just don't want to admit that there's decisions that might not be perfect for the franchise but will still help the team win games.
People freaking out about Peralta just don't want to admit that there's decisions that might not be perfect for the franchise but will still help the team win games.
In baseball? Probably. San Francisco has been as well, although I believe less deliberate.
Cards fans were salivating for a SS, and they signed the best available. Don't see why they should be salty. If it has anything to do with the PED topic...OH, BOY! They were certainly silly on that topic this post season as well.
I was personally hoping they would snag Drew, partially because I like him and I don't think he is going to be back.
I would have liked Drew too if not for the injury history. Otherwise, just from watching the BoSox in playoff baseball, hell yes sign him.
And I hope you are including Oakland in that San Francisco umbrella, that's a good way to make enemies if you're not careful Sanjuro.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Ah, I see. Well that obviously is not reasonable or financially feasible in the long term, so if you want to have a discussion within the confines of reasonable economic analysis let me know.
I definitely agree that this is not reasonable. I have definitely seen this occur and agree that it's inappropriate. This is true up and down the ladder all the way up to the Yankees; I've seen Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees payroll frequently, for example, while ignoring how large a gap there was between the Red Sox and Cardinals. Similarly, I've seen Cardinals fans complain about the Red Sox while ignoring the differences between the Cardinals and, say, the Brewers.
No, this is factually wrong. Here is the evidence.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries
http://deadspin.com/2013-payrolls-and-salaries-for-every-mlb-team-462765594
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/16560459/final-baseball-payrolls
No need. I don't know enough about the Cardinals day to day. Yankees, maybe. They got a great deal from the taxpayers and their new ballpark. Also, they are crazy spenders. Unlike any other team, they have the ability to do what they want, they are the only exception to this. Dodgers? They are doing whatever they can to make their team seem desirable to a market that doesn't give a shit about them. I can only see it backfiring at some point down the road, but who knows.
Again, I've already directly told you my point. I love the fact there is no salary cap. I want the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, etc to spend as much as they possibly can. It's the beautiful thing about baseball! You'll never see me take shots at the Yankees for doing so. Making fun of shit contacts down the road? Sure. We all do it. Calling people out being hypocrites? Sure.
Your link is factually wrong? In fact, that was the same link I used. Here are the results,
Los Angeles Dodgers $216,302,909
Philadelphia $159,578,214
San Francisco $142,180,333
St. Louis $116,702,085
Number four.
Sure. I was talking about top five in a prior post. Either way, top ten then.
Ninja Scooter
Member
If the Peralta (and upcoming Drew) deals are indicative of the SS market I wonder what kind of money the Dodgers are going to have to throw at Hanley to resign.
In one of those years linked, yes. In the other, they were 11. They fluctuate between 8-12 every year in my experience.
So they're either the bottom of the top third / top of the middle third, depending on the year. Yes, they are better off than most clubs, and I completely agree that people tend to be jealous of those higher on the ladder while dismissing the importance of those rungs lower on the ladder. That isn't even a baseball specific observation; people tend to take what they have for granted and look constantly up the ladder, jealous of those with more.
Yeah. They seem to be a bit more variable in their payroll choices, obviously for the better. The Pujols being the possible exception, but I wouldn't have blamed them for making that.
I mean, yeah, I'm a Red Sox fan. So everyone is usually bitching at me. The only argument I have is when they compare us directly to the Yankees.
Dominican Power
Member
LOLGERS
Mr. Enigma
Member
$10 MILLION FOR DAN HAREN?
$10 MILLION FOR DAN HAREN?
Good deal two years ago.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Every team has an extra $25M to play with?
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-new-national-tv-contracts-and-2014-payrolls/
Welcome to $6M/WAR. Maybe 7?
It seems that people fail to realize the cost of starting pitching. Pitching cost top market $ in today's game.
Mr. Enigma
Member
But does 14 losses and a 4.67 ERA really cost $10 million?