ConradCervantes
Banned
This backup team talk hurts my soul. Even with our scrub squad I'd rather kill myself than be associated with the Cubs just because they're the next closest team and there are FIBs all over my town.
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MLB Regular Season 2013 |OT| - Natinals Already Won
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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angels fan
sf2fanatic
Member
RBH- Pleasure doing business in fantasy baseball.. Good Luck!!
Heart Attack
Member
Holy Shit. A D-backs fan!!.
Yeah, I seem to have a different perspective on baseball than many fans here. I don't exhibit an impulse towards tribalism generally, and have no problem rooting for other teams that aren't "my team."
I generally view baseball as a fun random number generator that I can attach meaning to as I see fit.
Heart Attack
Member
I like it man, I like it =P
eznark's comment made me LOL
Baseball is played by humans. Fans feel human emotions when their teams win or lose. Baseball is about humanity. No matter our economic class we can feel united as Phillies fans and talk and converse amongst each other.
It can't just be reduced to numbers. That's what is fun about it. There is drama. There is tradition. There is excitement. You can't just reduce it to a number generator. It's more than that.
Right, tribalism. That's fine. I don't enjoy that and don't care about it, but you can and that's fine.
It can very much be reduced to numbers with a significant degree of accuracy, and is essentially a random number generator. It is not significantly more than that. This doesn't make it not fun! Statistics are really neat.
KidA Seven
Member
Having a back up team kind of ruins the fun in being a fan. It just cheapens the ups and downs of a season(s).
Most of us here see baseball as a fun random number generator that we can attach meaning to as we see fit. The issue with rooting for two teams is that you lose any real investment in the outcomes of games, because you can always choose to focus on the least negative outcome of your two teams on any given day. It's also very hard to really keep up to date with the details of more than one team--it's hard to do that even if you are rooting for two teams in different sports with overlapping seasons, let alone with two in the same sport in disparate geographical locations. As a result of those two factors, people who root for two teams tend to end up coming off as more "casual" fans, which annoys most single-team fans for the same reason that "casual" gamers tend to annoy hardcore ones. Again, note that this has nothing to do with baseball as spreadsheet porn, which is hardly unique to you--I'm as guilty of that as anyone this side of TangoTiger. It doesn't have much to do with baseball at all.
It apparently ruins the fun for you, and that's fine. I don't really have "downs" during the season; if the Cardinals aren't doing well, I can always find some other aspect of the game fascinating.
Well, I'm apparently different than much of sports-GAF, I can say that.
Heart Attack
Member
I agree. But there are other teams at a given time that are really exciting to watch: Orioles, Rays, Braves, etc.
Much of this I agree with, but I don't see why such a fan would be viewed as more "casual," and for that matter why a "Casual" fan would annoy some people.
I mean, by your own admission keeping up with more than one team is more complex and requires more effort. Why would that be "casual?" Why would it annoy someone that people appreciate a game in a different way? Honest questions.
Small sample size thus far, so I'd withhold judgement. The Cardinals statistically outperformed offensive expectations during McGwire's career there (that is, based on player's prior offensive output), but that could be attributed to random chance, which is of course why it is so difficult to calculate the value of coaches. It took literally decades before analysts became reasonably convinced that the "Dave Duncan effect" really, honestly existed, for example.
Because in general, fans of two teams don't really keep up with those two teams to the same extent that fans of single teams keep up with their own teams. And in general, as a result, communities that have formed around those teams dislike the "casual" fans--both for not showing as much support for the team (see fans of isometric RPGs ranting about Skyrim), and for not contributing meaningfully to discussion about the team (people exploding at someone who arrives late to a thread and reiterates a point that was answered on page 2). You might argue that this is no different from a situation in which someone is merely new to the sport, but in the case of a fan of two teams this is not an initial obstacle that will be overcome in time, but a systematic symptom of the way that he or she has chosen to follow the sport.
Possible, but this would almost certainly mean that the "casual" fan has a better grasp of the game overall. Using your logic, if we both have equal time to focus on a game, and you focus all of your time on a single team while I focus more broadly, surely that would mean you are more of an expert on the individual team while I am more of an expert on the game more broadly?
I don't really see that as more "casual" or "hardcore," exactly. And again, I don't see why this would be annoying.
Because sports are about taking risks. You invest your heart and soul in a team like you would in anything else in life. When you have side bets, it just feels wrong. You never let yourself be hurt by your team losing. You always have another team's arms to go to when things get rough.
Baseball is a pass time. You build a relationship with your team. They are "your team." If they lose, you still watch. If they win, you still watch. It's what makes the winning so much sweeter. It's analogous to life.
Rooting for more than one team is like having a mistress. You may increase your odds of getting laid, but it just ruins the magic. It ruins baseball.
Like I said above, this doesn't have anything to do with baseball. People aren't saying that two-team fans know less about baseball (at least, I haven't seen anyone say that). People have accused them of not being good baseball "fans," which I think is a reasonable stance given the points I outlined above.
Well, I think people mostly find it annoying if opinions espoused by people who are not exactly part of their community are attributed to their communities. In calling oneself a fan of a team, one implicitly announces oneself a member of an organization, whether the announcer (or organization) sees it that way or not. I think that's basically the crux of why people are annoyed by two-team fans--they don't like to essentially have the teams they are invested in represented by people who aren't particularly invested in the teams. A company probably doesn't want its salespeople to all be independent contractors, either, even though some of them might have really thorough knowledge of the mechanics of selling.
KidA Seven
Member
I didn't know you were a Dodgers fan. Sweet. I rarely post in here so that's probably why I didn't know.
For you. It does not ruin it for me. I don't see why this is complicated. Your approach is not the one true way, or anything of that nature.
That does not strike me as reasonable at all. A "fan" is, by definition, an ardent admirer or enthusiast. I appreciate and admire baseball, ardently. Just not in the way some other people do, apparently. You do not get to redefine what it means to be a "fan" because you don't like to include "Casual" fans like me (even though I do not admit that I am, in fact, "casual.")
Right, this is what I said before: tribalism. I freely admit that I do not exhibit tendencies towards tribalism (either in sports or in other aspects of my life) and don't really care about being part of a "community" competing against other rival "communities."
I just want to analyze the sport I enjoy and don't really care who wins. If you are tribalistic, that's completely fine and I don't mind, but it seems like exceptionally thin grounds on which to behave with the sort of antagonism I've seen exhibited in several sports threads. I mean, this entire argument (Which in the process got Windu banned and has clearly stirred some animosity) was initiated simply because I had the audacity to come in here and ask who other people's back up teams were. If you don't have a backup? Fine, cool, whatever. You don't have to enjoy baseball the way I do, I just don't understand why my approach to enjoying baseball pisses people off so much, because your approach doesn't bother me in the same way.
You are an ardent admirer or enthusiast of baseball, but I would not necessarily call you an ardent admirer or enthusiast of any one team. If I had to guess, I would say that you root for the Cardinals out of convenience (they are often on T.V.) and would happily switch over to another team if you switched media markets. I don't know for sure, of course, but the point is that once again if your interest is not rooted in any one team, you can hardly be said to be an ardent admirer of any team, except to the extent that you are an ardent admirer of all teams.
Tribalism is quite different from membership in a community. You and I are members of NeoGAF, which you moderate. You have threads that you choose to visit, and threads that you don't. People whose opinions you respect, and people whose opinions you do not. When you talk about the Cardinals, you are talking with other, presumably interested people, in a topic devoted to baseball, rather than in some other thread. All of these are conscious decisions to limit the scope of discussion and to find others who share a common goal.
There doesn't have to be "fighting" at all--I'm not sure where you got that interpretation. If there were real tribalism going on here, Nats and Braves fans would (figuratively) be at each other's throats. Even the two-team antagonism is mostly in jest--Enron is a two-teamer and we poke fun at him for it, but we all contribute perfectly civilly to the dialogue in this thread. In fact, even though my own posts addressed why people might be annoyed at other people being two-team fans, the vast majority of the posts here that I've seen disparaging the practice have been self-directed--e.g. "I could never be a two-team fan," or "I stick with my team through thick and thin." If you're referring to Windu's post (edit: which, apparently, you were), I am pretty sure that was about your joke, not supporting two teams.
I actually had a sentence about this (Which I edited out for brevity).
You could certainly make an argument that I am a "Fan" of baseball but not a "Fan" of a specific team, but by that same logic you aren't actually a "Fan" of baseball, just a "fan" of your specific team. Again, I don't see why one would be better or worse than another, and I would presume this thread could encompass both.
And I had presumed that goal was to discuss baseball, but as you are stating here, that may not actually be the case.
It may instead be a place for people to discuss their individual teams in a common forum, rather than a place for people to actually analyze baseball more broadly.
That certainly wasn't directed at you. I'm not sure if you've read back through the last few pages, but the hostility was quite clear, and in at least a couple cases explicit.
Right, it's a constructive way to express tribalistic tendencies without actually getting aggressive. I get it, that's fine, it just doesn't interest me.
It's one of several comments, yes. The question would then be why such a simple joke bothered him so much, particularly when there is significantly more intense ribbing go on here on frequent occasion. As you said, you "poke fun" at each other frequently.
It also wouldn't explain the hostility I've seen on frequent occasions when visiting these threads in the past.
johnny_park
Member
Any A's fans in here?
A couple actually. Haven't seen them much this year though.
Link
The Autumn Wind
Yeah, sorry, they may cause me headaches, heartaches, ulcers, and have probably taken years off my life, but the Mets are my one and only team.
I'm sure rafa's kicking around somewhere.
XbhasarkX, but he only posts rarely.
I'm not a real fan of them ( i only know a few of their players), but they are the team I am rooting for to win the AL west, with the mariners being a close second. (i'd root for the astros as I like underdogs, but they strike me as a team that will be more fun to just make fun of this year than root for >.>
I'm an odd one though and root for at least one team in every division, the only team you can really call me a true fan of though is the white sox, I like plenty of other teams though and will follow and root for plenty of them, heck last year I was rooting for the tigers through out the whole playoffs and ended up learning most of their roster including some of the sept call ups.
I think I watched like 50 valverde appearances last year because he always put on an exciting finish
In many ways, it does. We do our fair share of statistical analysis, but we also do our fair share of individual team discussion and, yes, even sometimes root for other teams to fail. There's plenty of room for both.
I think this is a really good description of what I was trying to get at, yeah. Å lot of people do come to this thread just for this, rather than for detailed analysis of baseball. Like I said above, we do some of each.
The hostility in this thread is really mild. I think most of the people posting here recognize that baseball is just a game and not worth getting too worked up over. The fact that there are so many games in the season probably helps people keep perspective a bit better than it does in some sports.
Then why ask about backup teams? Clearly, rooting for a team at all (or caring about who is rooting for what teams) implies some level of vested interest in the success of one team (and/or the communities built around fandom), even if the reason is only to keep the games interesting and reduce the overwhelming amount of information you would otherwise have to track. It's okay to admit you care a little more about the Cardinals than you do other teams, just as I would say most fans who come here intending to post exclusively about their teams still get caught up in stories like Trout's run last year, or the Chapman bullpen / starter discussion.
Without further context, I really can't speak much to this. I would say that if there is one thing I have learned on NeoGAF, it's that people can argue about, make jokes about, get offended by, and insult people over, practically anything, and that it's probably not worth reading too much into baseball fandom as a leading cause of cyberbullying or anything like that. You may have had a different experience or see things differently--such is the nature of human experience--but I've found the baseball thread to be one of the most civil on NeoGAF, outside of the odd classical music thread.
In any case, I think I've probably contributed all that I'm likely to contribute usefully to this discussion, so I'm going to go to bed. Hopefully I helped clear up some of your confusion.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
I think both types of talk are welcome, the broad coverage of MLB and on an individual team level. it keeps some of us who get a bit too busy able to learn a bit more about other players that otherwise would not be known to us.
Legitimate reasons for a backup team:
1) Expansion/moving. If a new team moves to your area, you can switch to that team, or make that team your backup.
2) Shithead owner. Not buffoon owner, but actual Jeffrey Loria-level shithead owner.
3) Significant other's team.
You cannot have a rival's team as a backup, so no Giants backup for Dodger fans. Teams in the same division are almost always a no-no.
If college: you cannot have one for one sport and one for another (so no USC football/UCLA basketball like this one girl I knew in the AF. We all called foul on that one
On the general/specific- I think baseball really lends itself to following one team, due to the large number of games/local broadcasts.
The NBA/NHL have a larger percentage of their schedule on national broadcast.
1) Expansion/moving. If a new team moves to your area, you can switch to that team, or make that team your backup.
2) Shithead owner. Not buffoon owner, but actual Jeffrey Loria-level shithead owner.
3) Significant other's team.
You cannot have a rival's team as a backup, so no Giants backup for Dodger fans. Teams in the same division are almost always a no-no.
If college: you cannot have one for one sport and one for another (so no USC football/UCLA basketball like this one girl I knew in the AF. We all called foul on that one
On the general/specific- I think baseball really lends itself to following one team, due to the large number of games/local broadcasts.
The NBA/NHL have a larger percentage of their schedule on national broadcast.
aspergers
ViperVisor
Member
I was up since before the sun was up Saturday so I fell asleep last night.
ConradCervantes
Banned
Sigh. This is going to be a long season.
Heart Attack
Member
Can't wait for Eznark to go apeshit crazy.
Dmncnby2k9
Banned
Really wish McHugh was getting the start but hopefully Laffey can be passable as the 5th starter until Marcum or Wheeler is ready. Sounds like Mets have considered bringing Chris Young back too.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Bleh looks like Niemann is out for the season.
Hopefully Archer isn't in AAA for too long.
Hopefully Archer isn't in AAA for too long.
Heart Attack
Member
already? wow. So many pitchers dropping like flys.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Not really a new issue. He's had decreased velocity all of spring training (not topping 87 at any point) and now has discomfort in the shoulder. Sounds like they're going to shut it down but nothing official yet.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
THIS. The only thing that really baffles me about your perspective on baseball, Opiate, is your apparent mild surprise at encountering so much inherent "tribalism" on sports-GAF, as if it weren't a deeply fundamental part of nearly all sports and sports fans, period. It sounds like you have considerably less interest in the "romance" of baseball than even most of the people who invented, advanced and popularized rational, stat-based analysis of the sport (Bill James, etc.). I'm not saying you're unique, but your near-total enjoyment of baseball as a random number generator is an extreme outlier in sports fandom. It's totally fine to enjoy it however you enjoy it--and you sure as hell know what you're talking about in this regard--but I'm just surprised you haven't felt this disconnect in literally every sports conversation you've ever had, unless you just don't talk about sports in real life much.
MLB-GAF is about as saber-friendly, sober, and light-hearted as it's going to get for a semi-random collection of baseball fans on a message board.
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