Tobimacoss
Member
Canis is 16 CU. What's stopping MS from doing a 24 CU AT4 console, or a 48 CU AT3 console, in addition to the 68 CU Magnus.
Remember, PC games are designed to scale hardware.
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[MLiD] XBOX Magnus RDNA 5 Finalized
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Rumor Hardware
Remember, PC games are designed to scale hardware.
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
I've been wanting info on Magnus for a long time and this thread finally delivered.
I think I've gotten my fill of what this APU will be capable of.
Remember this and the PS6 will probably be hanging around in the 2040's.
Honestly, they need to be bringing more oomph than what I'm seeing here.
I think I've gotten my fill of what this APU will be capable of.
Remember this and the PS6 will probably be hanging around in the 2040's.
Honestly, they need to be bringing more oomph than what I'm seeing here.
Shogmaster
Member
AT4 APU will be used on handheld Windows PCs.
AT3 Madusa Halo will be used extensively with SFF/ Mini PCs. You can install Windows with XBox full screen or Steam OS on that sucker so Mini PC with MHalo will be made by everyone and their mama prolly.
Neo_game
Member
I don't think so. PS6 is 280mm² 160W where as Xbox Hybrid is 408 mm² with 250W according to leaks. That is a big difference, IMO these do not belong to same category and both are targeting different audience. There is likely going to be big difference in price as well. If this is not having 40-50% advantage this will be a epic disaster.
Tobimacoss
Member
Yes, I'm aware AT4 is likely handhelds, and AT3 is Laptops/mini PCs, but if MS made consoles out of those, they would be more powerful than a Series S and X and cheaper than Magnus.
So doable right? If it's all just PCs.
Shogmaster
Member
Honestly, a PC hybrid will have to be better GPU performer than PS6, otherwise it loses any appeal. AT3 will have 48 CUs with ~400GB/s bandwidth. PS6 will have 52 CU and ~600 GB/s bandwidth. Not enough for ppl to spend more than a PS6...
AT4 PC handgelds will fill that role over PS6HH well.
Tobimacoss
Member
A Magnus AT3 console priced similar to Orion but with free multiplayer and free Cloud saves. That would be the calculation in the scenario I'm trying to illustrate.
Xbox and AMD: Advancing the Next Generation of Gaming Together - Xbox Wire
This week, Xbox announced it is actively building its next-generation lineup across console, handheld, PC, cloud, and accessories. Find out more inside.
news.xbox.com
"first party consoles" as in plural.
"portfolio of devices" what does that portfolio include?
If they're all just PCs, they would all be one unified ecosystem. Meaning no Play Anywhere needed, and MS could release devices with various levels of power at various price points.
And the article mentions OEMs not only building more expensive higher spec devices but also cheaper ones. So what are the cheaper ones? It has to be AT4 or AT3 right?
MCH2024
Member
Again.
AMD charged 298$ for the APU (Strix Point) used in ROG Ally.
The pricing picture is completely different if you're a semi-custom customer with a volume guarantee and who helped with co-engineering.
Or if you're just buying off the shelf silicon.
One gets silicon near wafer cost and the other gets charged Premium
Margins.
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MCH2024
Member
MCH2024
Member
It's important to note this.
Xbox Magnus is better in everything. Compute, front end, clocks, L2, etc. no matter the bottleneck Xbox Series X2 has more of that than Sony.
Xbox has basically learnt from Series X's failure to beat PS5 in performance.
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MCH2024
Member
No it's designed so C390 doesn't just obliterate medusa 1.
AMD Roadmap is volatile right now. For all the talk about Nvidia delaying or cancelling. The chances of AMD delaying/cancelling AT0/3/4, mdsH and mdsP are astronomically higher. They will not proceed with tapeouts and production mask sets if they are not certain they can sell enough volume to earn a positive ROI.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
Ex-Box fans are hilarious.I like the ones which go "I've been a PC gamer for years..." too. Fun stories to read
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Is anyone expecting Magnus to reach 10M with the prices that's been rumoured?
Tobimacoss
Member
The entirety of AMD's Zen 6 and RDNA5 is Xbox co-engineered. The portfolio is designed for PCs, Laptops, Handhelds, Consoles, Cloud.Again.
AMD charged 298$ for the APU (Strix Point) used in ROG Ally.
The pricing picture is completely different if you're a semi-custom customer with a volume guarantee and who helped with co-engineering.
Or if you're just buying off the shelf silicon.
One gets silicon near wafer cost and the other gets charged Premium
First party means MS created. ROG and OMEN would be third party. So there are at least a plural of first party consoles.
AMD discontinued the Z3 handheld lineup of chips, they will need something for next gen handhelds, which is likely to be AT4.
Magnus = CPU SOC, theoretically it can be paired up with AT3 and AT4. Series X and S have the same CPU.
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Miyazaki’s Slave
Gold Member
the ps6, given the current price trajectories, will clock in (compete guestimates) between 999 and 1299. I can see MS tacking on a nice "it plays Steam games" tax as well.
memoryman3
Member
You don't think that there will be games that use the PS6's memory to the fullest extent?
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
If it can capture the "I am going to get a gaming PC" type of crowd and is priced right, who knows
If Xbox can nail the "console like experience" of coming home and picking up a controller and getting right into gaming on your TV, who knows
Do I think MS can manage even just these 2 things flawlessly?
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
I think it's gonna capture the I need a new PC crowd.
70% of Steam players on old hardware? Did they ever say how many players that was?
Xbox only gamers are going to have to make a hard decision soon.
Pay up and keep the library and friends list. Or move to PlayStation and or Switch.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And with that. We have come full circle from how these discussion were pre-launch last gen.
Ironic.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Primitive shaders are pretty much the same between RDNA1 and 2. In PC space RDNA1 just lacks Api support, something that Sony did with PS5.
So how much more efficient PS5 really is? Reality is that there are games that perform better on PS5, games that perform better on Xbox and games that are more or less the same. Both consoles use similar level of power so this "efficiency" talk is not exactly true (Xbox can even use less power). PS5 is cheaper to produce on the other hand (smaller die but require more efficient cooling thanks to that and higher clocks).
In a game that actually uses primitve and mesh shaders (Alan Wake 2) Xbox certainly doesn't underperform:
And you can think I'm being some Xbox fanboy... but it's hard to be a fanboy of something that you don't even own.
Space Marine 2 is also a game that (reportedly) uses Mesh Shaders and also has one of the more sizable difference between the two consoles in recent year(s).
Loxus
Member
Could be the specs MS wanted.
Loxus
Member
I believe what is happening this time around, is everything known so far about PS, Xbox and AMD specs wise came from him and is proving to be accurate as products gets revealed. With his latest being Zen6 Venice.
I do find it odd that he has that kind of information, a YouTuber. He has to be paying for that info from his sources for them to risk their jobs or it's controlled leaks from within AMD, Intel and Nvidia or both.
Topher
Identifies as young
I wouldn't doubt that a bit. He has over 200k subs now so he's probably making good money and invests that in sources to keep it going.
twilo99
Member
Yes, of course, I meant "console" if you consider this the Xbox a console.
What makes a console a console is an interesting discussion
Bojji
is right, PS5 is just RDNA1 + RT, there is no magic Mark Cerny customizations.And btw PS6 isn't full RDNA5 either.
ReasonBeing
Member
Impossible, 5 million would be pushing it. I think they are positioning this device as a prestige product that boosts brand awareness. I imagine it's roll will be more to solidify Windows gaming market share against Steam OS, rather than claw back console market share from Sony. Obviously, this is just an uninformed prediction.
Edit: If I were a betting man, I would guess around 2 million
Edit Edit: I still want one
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ReasonBeing
Member
I don't think asserting that PS5's GPU is more in line with RDNA 1 is denying the existence of cache scrubbers, these are not mutually exclusive. Not that I'm making any argument for or against, as I would be talking out of my ass."Magic" no. But there were certainly custom tech implementations, namely cache scrubbers. We will never know to what extent that improved PS5 performance, but to deny it's existence is weird.
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We are in the middle of the ps5 gen.
We are at the end of the series generation.
Xbox desperately needs new hardware ASAP to try and regain any semblance of marketshare.
PS5 meanwhile continues with solid momentum and potentially on the way to 150 million+ units.
Sony can afford to wait and see what/if MS launches hardware wise and proceed with next gen at their convenience. There is absolutely no rush for them. Better for devs to target 100 million plus ps5s, why rush into another device cycle when there won't be a huge bump up from ps5 pro? 2030 they can provide a decent visual bump at a reasonable price.
Topher
Identifies as young
In the end, there wasn't that much difference in most games between the two consoles so doesn't really matter.
Shogmaster
Member
Unfortunately, Orion and Magnus has taped out at the same fucking time, making most if not all your points, moot...
viveks86
Member
Any thoughts on the features that didn't make the cut?
Tobimacoss
Member
NPU fo sho but that has more to do with the CPU.
Bojji is just doing what he normally does, being reductive when it comes to PS. Both XS and PS5 are custom RDNA. "RDNA1+RT" is closer in important features to RDNA2 than it is with RDNA1 IMO. You only need to look at XS and PS5 Pro having so called "full RDNA2" but not offering all that much more than base PS5 in terms of the impact of those additional features. Now imagine say having no hardware RT like in actual RDNA1. The real important things in actual (not custom) RDNA2 AMD cards was hardware RT and maybe the introduction of Infinity Cache and even then neither PS5 nor XS implemented the latter because they're both custom really. custom SoCs built around the machines clocks, GDDR memory bandwidth and everything else (like those "cache scrubbers" or whatever else), implementing features that make sense to them.
It's about getting the most power out of a cheap well designed system. You can mitigate a lot of problems real RDNA2 tried to solve and XSX/PS5 lacked by doing other things instead. For example decide to clock higher, have a different memory config with different bus size instead of Infinity Cache, even do things in software like VRS. You're just trying to get the most performance for the cheapest price and PS5 punched well above its weight in that regard. It was cheaper to produce than the XSX yet going toe to toe with it and often outperforming it. Nobody really cares if you want to call it RDNA1+RT or RDNA2 minus X . There is no need to do that when it's clearly neither, best described as custom, and the real world differences are not all that important anyway.
It's about getting the most power out of a cheap well designed system. You can mitigate a lot of problems real RDNA2 tried to solve and XSX/PS5 lacked by doing other things instead. For example decide to clock higher, have a different memory config with different bus size instead of Infinity Cache, even do things in software like VRS. You're just trying to get the most performance for the cheapest price and PS5 punched well above its weight in that regard. It was cheaper to produce than the XSX yet going toe to toe with it and often outperforming it. Nobody really cares if you want to call it RDNA1+RT or RDNA2 minus X . There is no need to do that when it's clearly neither, best described as custom, and the real world differences are not all that important anyway.
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Would cost less for Sony to abandon Orion than it cost to cancel Concord. Especially with ram prices through the roof.
Tobimacoss
Member
It's not that complicated in terms of Xbox ecosystem. If the device runs fixed spec Console SKUs guaranteed optimized for the unified memory architecture, created by the GDKX, then it's a console, even if it additionally runs Epic, Steam PC games. More specifically a Hybrid Console.
If the device runs GDK created Xbox PC SKUs, for next gen, with optional optimization via presets, similar to the Handheld Optimized presets for the Xbox Windows handhelds, then it's a Consolized PC with BC. If MS does that, then it has to be a unified ecosystem, including EA and Ubisoft games on Xbox PC store with Xbox backend. Otherwise the status quo remains, with two separate SKUs joined together by Play Anywhere licensing.
We should get a better idea in March with the GDC and in April when the GDK updates.
There's a third option that would require updating publisher terms to create a hardware based universal platform, regardless of form factor.
Tobimacoss
Member
You left out the most important thing that makes it full RDNA2, that is Mesh Shaders. Mesh Shaders bring GPU efficiency like nothing else can.
Shogmaster
Member
Two Wongs dont make a white...
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
Hold up, then it might be possible to run this like an xbox and not need ubisoft app?
Never thought I would be pulling for the 'console' way.
Steam might be in trouble with those games that require a separate app. I would buy the Xbox version of the game in those instances.
I might actually buy GTA6 on Xbox just to avoid having to use the Rockstar app.
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March Climber
What do you think? I remember you saying you buy the games that have separate store apps on the PS5, and most everything else on PC.
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Lagspike_exe
Member
Still hoping they just push it to 2028 / 2029. 2027 is too early.
How important was that "efficiency" when PS5 was more often than not performing the same as XSX though? Not all that important.
Same with things like VRS vs software VRS. Now compare actual RDNA1 running software RT vs "custom RDNA" (RDNA1+RT/RDNA2-X) and you will see how much of a difference that is.
Sure you got more performance/watt with the "full" thing but PS5 clocked higher and had a system built around that. To counter the downsides of the higher clocks they added the "cache scrubbers". These are custom systems where the custom SoC "version" can't be looked at and compared to determine importance of things. Some people keep trying though for obvious reasons. It's like they refuse the fact that the pudding tastes the same or sometimes better and instead laser focus on ingredient differences they read about.
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Tobimacoss
Member
Of course. There's a reason why Xbox PC games don't require Denuvo, or other DRM, because they're MSIXVC packaged Win32 games, which is signed, encrypted, notarized packages, that makes them more difficult to mod but also more difficult to pirate or use most cheats with.
GitHub - microsoft/GDK: Microsoft Public GDK
Microsoft Public GDK. Contribute to microsoft/GDK development by creating an account on GitHub.github.com
Game Development Kit (GDK) documentation - Microsoft Game Development Kit
Instruction on using the Game Development Kit (GDK)learn.microsoft.com
So Xbox has a unified dev environment since June 2019 when targeting the Xbox ecosystem for PCs, Consoles, Cloud.
GDK SKU = PC SKU aka Desktops, Laptops, Handhelds.
GDKX SKU = Console SKU aka Consoles and xCloud.
So Ubisoft and EA currently only build the Console SKU, even though their subscriptions are part of Gamepass. MS was kind enough to simply redirect their PC Gamepass customers to the respective publishers storefronts via account sync. So Gamepass on PC and Nvidia GFN uses Ubisoft and EA PC versions with their store backends. Gamepass on Consoles and xCloud uses their versions with Xbox backend.
So we need to see which SKUs Magnus uses, it will still likely be Console SKUs. But hopefully MS can get EA and Ubisoft to do Play Anywhere, like how Epic made FortNite Play Anywhere title. So you can basically play FortNite on Xbox PC without needing Epic launcher. That's why Epic should do same for Alan Wake 2, when it comes to Gamepass.
Tobimacoss
Member
Thing is, 99.99% of games don't use Mesh Shaders, precisely because PS5 is the lead dev environment, and since it lacked them, most devs didn't bother learning.
So PS5 not having full RDNA2 held things back from advancing. We couldn't really see the differences Mesh Shaders would bring to the AAA games.
For example, that Space Marines 2 that the Apple
posted if true. It doesn't seem like anything major is missing from Orion, only thing I can see is the NPU but even MLID was unsure if that's missing.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Xbox Series consoles also require you to have an account.Hold up, then it might be possible to run this like an xbox and not need ubisoft app?
Never thought I would be pulling for the 'console' way.
Steam might be in trouble with those games that require a separate app. I would buy the Xbox version of the game in those instances.
I might actually buy GTA6 on Xbox just to avoid having to use the Rockstar app.
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But on consoles, games does it seamlessly, one doesn't even notice account being made etc. . Just press start button and start playing. It probably makes an account for you with email id given in xbox account.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
I forgot you have to sign into an account. But you don't have to launch a complete app/store to play the game.
vaibhavpisal
Member
No, you dont need app or even sign in. That happens when you press start button. It doesn't give or ask for password etc.
