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[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Xbox Y
and the higher spec version the
Xbox Seriously Y


If only specs meant good games instead of the atrocities we have been getting these past 5 years... *sigh*

Hey PC has plenty of good games

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Microsoft going interesting route: over 1k $ console/pc hybrid. There are many enthusiasts on gaf that will like it, question is if somebody want to spend over 1k why not go pc + nvidia route. If they managed to release this next year many would jump to play gta6 on it.

It won't have GTA6 on it because it'll be Xbox PC meaning games made for it will be win32 games. I.e PC games.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

5080 is only 10-15% faster than 4080 though.

The marketing stuff about Blackwell having 2x faster RT etc doesn't really hold up.

Blackwells gains come from efficiency and the tensor cores. You will see Blackwell take off when tensor cores are pushed to the limit with future technologies like neural rendering.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Huh, we arleady at next-gen leaks, it feels like PS5 didint even started yet.

Xbox had series X and S hardware and features (Ray tracing and all) locked down in 2016 before the One X even launched. That's 4 years before launch. It's 2025, the PS5 chip tapes out this year launch is likely 2027, 2028 at the latest but 2027 is what everything is pointing to.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

I need to know how much of a jump it is over the PS5 pro, is the CPU good?

Its far too early in the leaks to know if this is powerful enough.

Probably around 4080 power give or take, I don't think it'll beat the 4090 at everything. PS5 Pro is weaker than a 5060ti it's like a 5060ish/3070 in power.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Because it hasn't. The PS7 will be just around the corner and the PS5 Will still be viable.

It will, next gen will have the longest cross gen ever. The Switch 2 is way slower than a PS5 and Nintendo plans that console to last till 2032. The PS5 has its post PS6 launch future assured.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Based on this it should be around the 5080->4090 range. 264mm2 doesn't sound large, but that is just the GPU section and it is on 3nm, while also being UDNA/RNDA5. If it clocks really highly performance will be pretty impressive. And really expensive.

That's 5070 size which is huge for a traditional console. I don't think this is the PS6 but the next gen Xbox windows box.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

The only reason I care for new hardware is to maintain 60fps modes for newer games and also the improved AI upscaling. Having FSR4 or better upscaling as the baseline will be hugely beneficial for next gen.

 

[DinoD]

Sony PS6= zen6 based APU (smaller die) + very high clock rate + "T-1000 polyalloy Liquid Metal " type cooling solution+ fancy pantsy upscaling solution ?

 

[Three]

Why would msft care? Xbox emerged due to crazy kaz saying after 100m psx sold they could put an os in PlayStation. There are rumored to be 900 million pc gamers.

Next gen is an ecosystem war.
Switch 1&2 vs ps4/5/6/pros vs pc/nextbox/portable pcs ect.. including tv

Because most of xbox's revenue is from console. Because on the ecosystem front they are being threatened by SteamOS and PS. They need numbers, not $1000-1500 devices nobody buys.

 

[nial]

Was doing some research and notice something.

Xbox codenames usually utilize a theme such as places or people/animal names.

Playstation codenames are themed around Shakespeare and the Pro versions around The Matrix.

I was beginning to think it may just be an AMD APU just like Strix Halo.

But then I remembered Playstation also used Latin names such as Orbis (Circle) for the PS4 Dev kit and the PS Vita (Life).

Following that, Magnus means (Great) in Latin. Which could be a Devkit codename and not necessarily the codename for the APU.

Shakespeare also talks about great in one of his lines.

Shakespeare
Twelfth Night (Act 2, Scene 5):
"Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon 'em."


All this doesn't mean it's Playstation related though.

Sony codenames for the consoles are from The Matrix, AMD codenames for the SoC are from Shakespeare.

 

[SILKYSMOOTH30FPS]

Oddly pessimistic take for hardware still about 3 years out, but go off.

This is how the last two generations were, and nothing will change next gen. Ever since off the shelf specs became the standard, my expectations for a system with dat special sauce is gone.

 

[nkarafo]

Stopped being excited about fancy and fat specs since a while now. Tech is now used more to brute force unoptimized code and less for actual things that do need that extra power we didn't have before. Visually, the only difference will be that Digital Foundry will have to zoom in 10x instead of 4x to see the generational differences.

 

[SSfox]

Then fuck off from this thread?

You fuck off first mister fake PlayStation fan

 

[Ar¢tos]

Stopped being excited about fancy and fat specs since a while now. Tech is now used more to brute force unoptimized code and less for actual things that do need that extra power we didn't have before. Visually, the only difference will be that Digital Foundry will have to zoom in 10x instead of 4x to see the generational differences.

You are not thinking of how better specs give devs the potential to make more detailed ugly manly strong female characters in their games. You might even see the individual hairs in their stubble.

 

[Audiophile]

I'd be very surprised by a monolithic APU in excess of 330mm2 from Sony/Cerny.

I'd like to be surprised on one hand but then I'd also think that it makes sense to keep the chip closer to the low 300s while pushing clocks which means better/easier utilisation and speeding up the entire GPU (same deal as base PS5). Sure, thermals will get higher, but increased thermal/power management capabilities will probably still be a good bit cheaper than a chip that's that much bigger.

Edit: Only just watched the video and didn't realise it was two smaller chiplets in an MCM, rather than monolithic. While packaging has its costs, I guess the higher number of chips/better yields per wafer could offset some of that as well as lead to a slightly more favourable path for scaling down future SKUs.

Updated ^^

-------

Regarding the CPU, been thinking for a while it may make sense to have just a few bigger cores with higher clocks and more per-core cache (and maybe some additional instructions such as AVX256/512-S?), perhaps even with SMT disabled so you can really push those individual threads...

If your device's primary function is gaming then you know full well that in even the most well-threaded games, you still tend to have 1, 2, maybe 3 -- in the absolute best case scenario -- main game threads (or at least, well-saturated threads) running on the CPU that effectively act as your "show runners". Then the rest of the cores bounce around with lower utilisation handling more parallelisable workloads or small chunks.

If you know this is gonna be the case, it seems kinda inefficient in terms of die area to have all big cores where most of them are left open a lot of the time. Plus, you could always go one further beyond what we're seeing here and use LP cores for the OS too, though that depends on how persistent the OS is during use of the main game/app and whether the complication may be worth it.

This was the rough idea/concept I was throwing around a little while back (again, just an idea, not what I'm expecting):

AMD Zen 6 Hybrid CPU Chiplet (PS6 Concept)
==============================
2 Zen 6 "Showrunner" Cores:
1MB L2 Per Core ● 128/256-Bit SIMD + AVX256 & AVX512-S
2C/2T @ 4.65GHz for GAME
-------------------------------
8 Zen 6C "Worker" Cores:
512KB L2 Per Core ● 128/256-Bit SIMD ● SMT
7C/14T @ 3.85GHz for GAME (1C/2T Disabled for Yield)
-------------------------------------------------------------
2 Zen 6LP "System" Cores:
256KB L2 Per Core ● 128/256-Bit SIMD ● SMT
2C/4T @ 3.50GHz for OS
------------------------------------------------------
Unified 12 Core CCX ● SmartShift ● No On-Die L3
------------------------------------------------------------------------
48MB CPU L3 via 3D V-Cache (Low-Yield Generic AMD 64MB Die)

 

[Loxus]

nial
True but the same can be said for Xbox naming theme as well, it holds no relation.

With Magnus, there could be more to it.

In the Twelfth Night (Act II, Scene 5):
The character Malvolio, who is Olivia's steward, is proud, self-important, and secretly loves Olivia.

Other servants (Maria, Sir Toby, Fabian) decide to prank him.

Maria writes a fake letter pretending to be from Olivia, and arranges for Malvolio to find it.

The letter says:
"Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon 'em."


As that relates;
The GCD chiplet (Malvolio): is the ambitious, power-hungry part — wants "greatness".
(The GPU is the graphical powerhouse)

The CCD chiplet (Maria) is the orchestrator / planner — clever, subtle, controls the action.
(CPU handles logic, coordination)

Whole APU (combined CCD+GCD) Magnus, Latin for "Great" — is the letter itself.
The APU creates the system's greatness.


Magnus being Latin for "Great" is actually more relatable to Playstation than Xbox, since Playstation had used Latin codenames in the pass.

But like I said, it may not be related to Playstation at all. I'm just putting this out there to give a broader perspective on the topic.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

It won't have GTA6 on it because it'll be Xbox PC meaning games made for it will be win32 games. I.e PC games.

It will be backward compatible with xsx so all what Rockstar need to do is unlock frames for new xbox (costless port)

 

[Physiognomonics]

Kepler is saying magnus could be the next gpu family of AMD, 10k something. Now those 11 CPU Cores would make more sense.

 

[Proelite]

Codename is not a Shakespeare character, every AMD Playstation APU so far has been 256-bit, and the die size in general is extremely large (50% larger than the PS5).

I'm looking at the die shots, and I'm counting a 512 bit bus. Where was the 384 bit bus info from? I think MLiD might have mixed up his info about Magnus.

 

[KeplerL2]

Kepler is saying magnus could be the next gpu family of AMD, 10k something. Now those 11 CPU Cores would make more sense.

I said in theory AMD could re-use the Magnus GCD for Radeon GPUs, replacing the SoC with a MID for Display/Media/PCIe

I'm looking at the die shots, and I'm counting only a 256 bit bus. Where was the 384 bit bus info from? I think MLiD might have mixed up his info about Magnus.

Which die shot?

 

[Proelite]

I said in theory AMD could re-use the Magnus GCD for Radeon GPUs, replacing the SoC with a MID for Display/Media/PCIe

Which die shot?

Sorry I actually count a 512 bit bus. There are 8 2x32 bit GDDR7 Phy controllers.

 

[Loxus]

I'm looking at the die shots, and I'm counting only a 256 bit bus. Where was the 384 bit bus info from? I think MLiD might have mixed up his info about Magnus.

Are you referring to this?

If you really think about it, it's kinda impossible to have 6 32 bit GDDR PHY on one side.

For example, the 9070XT can only manage 3 on one side. Maybe 4 with some tweaking.

So imo, either his diagram is not to be taken literally in terms of layout or it LPDDR.

 

[KeplerL2]

Sorry I actually count a 512 bit bus. There are 8 2x32 bit GDDR7 Phy controllers.

That's not a real die shot, it's a photoshop he did using existing stuff. The die on the left is Phoenix2, the GPU I'm not sure but looks familiar.

 

[KeplerL2]

If you really think about it, it's kinda impossible to have 6 32 bit GDDR PHY on one side.

Navi31 did exactly that.

 

[Proelite]

That's not a real die shot, it's a photoshop he did using existing stuff. The die on the left is Phoenix2, the GPU I'm not sure but looks familiar.

If it's a photoshop that makes sense.

 

[Loxus]

That's not a real die shot, it's a photoshop he did using existing stuff. The die on the left is Phoenix2, the GPU I'm not sure but looks familiar.

The GPU is from the PS5 die shot.

 

[Proelite]

The GPU is from the PS5 die shot.

That makes sense now. Each GDDR5 controller is 2x16 bit instead of 2x32...

 

[midnightAI]

By your DOA logic, why is the PS5 PRO still alive then?

And why would I want to wait x amount of years for a console exclusive to hit PC? I mean I have a PC for gaming and music production, but I'm not gonna wait for Bloodborne to come on PC anymore.

Because its a Pro console, it isn't the main console, it isn't expected to sell as much as the regular PS5. I fully expect the PS6 to be less than $600 and the Pro will come later and yeh, will be more than $600

I'm not arguing against consoles or saying you should get a PC, far from it, I'm arguing that charging $1k every 5 years for a new console is a VERY bad idea and wouldn't work. Also, ther original argument that I replied to was for XBox, not PlayStation, an XBox that is $1k and can play PC games that you re-purchase every 5 years for the next upgrades.

 

[Proelite]

That's not a real die shot, it's a photoshop he did using existing stuff. The die on the left is Phoenix2, the GPU I'm not sure but looks familiar.

Also if it's a photoshop, then all the die analysis we did to count the CUs were misguided.

 

[KeplerL2]

Also if it's a photoshop, then all the die analysis we did to count the CUs were misguided.

This one isn't photoshopped, it's a recreation of the real die shot as he said.

The two large clusters of shaders with a narrow front-end in the center looks a lot like Navi21

And Navi31

Now I think Navi21 config with 4 SE/80 CU makes more sense if this GCD is just for Xbox, but would be interesting if it's the Navi31 config with 6 SE/96 CU as that could mean the GCD could be re-used for desktop GPUs.

 

[Proelite]

This one isn't photoshopped, it's a recreation of the real die shot as he said.

The two large clusters of shaders with a narrow front-end in the center looks a lot like Navi21

And Navi31

Now I think Navi21 config with 4 SE/80 CU makes more sense if this GCD is just for Xbox, but would be interesting if it's the Navi31 config with 6 SE/96 CU as that could mean the GCD could be re-used for desktop GPUs.

More likely to be Navi 31 with 6 SEs if it has a 384-bit bus. Navi 21 has 256 bit bus.

 

[Loxus]

Also if it's a photoshop, then all the die analysis we did to count the CUs were misguided.

Yes.

The 7900 XTX with 96CU on 5nm is 305mm².

If the GCD is also on 3nm, 264mm² including the memory controllers should get us 108CU.

 

[KeplerL2]

More likely to be Navi 31 with 6 SEs if it has a 384-bit bus. Navi 21 has 256 bit bus.

Possibly, 384-bit is overkill for 80 CUs/128 ROPs, but at the same time 96 CUs/192 ROPs is overkill for a console

 

[KeplerL2]

Yes.

The 7900 XTX with 96CU on 5nm is 305mm².

If the GCD is also on 3nm, 264mm² including the memory controllers should get us 108CU.

The GCD in Navi3X doesn't contain memory controllers and Infinity Cache, though it does contain Display/Media/PCIe which the Magnus one doesn't.

 

[Loxus]

This one isn't photoshopped, it's a recreation of the real die shot as he said.

The two large clusters of shaders with a narrow front-end in the center looks a lot like Navi21

And Navi31

Now I think Navi21 config with 4 SE/80 CU makes more sense if this GCD is just for Xbox, but would be interesting if it's the Navi31 config with 6 SE/96 CU as that could mean the GCD could be re-used for desktop GPUs.

Here are cleaner dies.

What are your thoughts on the GDDR PHY.
I still think it's impossible to have six PHY on one side based on it's actual size.

Unless it's a new type of memory. GDDR7W?

The PHY to MCD is close to the size of a GDDR PHY.

On MLiD diagram, one shader engine side is bigger than the other. Which suggests the display/media engine is included in the GCD.

 

[Proelite]

Possibly, 384-bit is overkill for 80 CUs/128 ROPs, but at the same time 96 CUs/192 ROPs is overkill for a console

$1100 "console".

 

[SegaSnatcher]

This is how the last two generations were, and nothing will change next gen. Ever since off the shelf specs became the standard, my expectations for a system with dat special sauce is gone.

Special sauce is overrated in modern development. It just adds unnecessary complexity. Devs don't want to have to waste resources and time to have to figure out bespoke tech. The Cell processor killed the idea of needing overly customized and unique technology. It did more damage than good.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Special sauce is overrated in modern development. It just adds unnecessary complexity. Devs don't want to have to waste resources and time to have to figure out bespoke tech. The Cell processor killed the idea of needing overly customized and unique technology. It did more damage than good.

Special sauce doesn't work if you want to port your games to PC, Xbox and Switch.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

$1100 "console".

 

[rsouzadk]

So... will it run PS5 games at 60 FPS with all the bells and whistles, or are we lowering expectations again?

Spoiler: 👀

sarcasm

 

[Bry0]

Man, if I can't run normal windows on it then this is a really stupid niche product.

 

[Proelite]

"Starting MSRP"

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Nah son, I can't afford this shit!

 

[reinking]

Mainstream gamers are going to be screwed. I was joking yesterday and made a comment that maybe that is Microsoft's plan to drive them to streaming. It might not be a joke in the end.

 

[Proelite]

Yes.

The 7900 XTX with 96CU on 5nm is 305mm².

If the GCD is also on 3nm, 264mm² including the memory controllers should get us 108CU.

I did a calculation where I removed all the infinity cache and fabric from Navi 48Xl, shrank down the command + display engines, and multiplied the shader engine, caches, phy controllers by 1.5x. There is enough die space left where we can get to 144CUs in 3 SEs in 264mm2 on TSMC n3p, assuming the WGP doesn't grow in size relatively.

 

[OverHeat]

Power cost money! Give it to me!

 

[KeplerL2]

I did a calculation where I removed all the infinity cache and fabric from Navi 48Xl, shrank down the command + display engines, and multiplied the shader engine, caches, phy controllers by 1.5x. There is enough die space left where we can get to 144CUs in 3 SEs in 264mm2 on TSMC n3p, assuming the WGP doesn't grow in size relatively.

You can't just take the RDNA4 WGP size and shrink by N3P Logic density, there's lots of stuff being added.

 

[midnightAI]

This is how the last two generations were, and nothing will change next gen. Ever since off the shelf specs became the standard, my expectations for a system with dat special sauce is gone.

Special sauce being like consoles of yore, which was custom silicon where not many developers got the best out of until the end of the generation?

 

[Proelite]

You can't just take the RDNA4 WGP size and shrink by N3P Logic density, there's lots of stuff being added.

Yes that's why I say if the WGP stays the same. So you have a ball park figure of how much bigger they are on the same node?