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MMA |OT3| When you lose you're a can, when you win you're unstoppable.

Ufc should get AA back. He could be semi entertaining against some of the bottom tier heavies.

I think he loses. He was only good in UFC in his day because he was fighting cans like Justin Eillers. Dude would have been decimated in PRIDE at the time, losing to lower tier HW's like Sergi, Alex E and even generation 1 guys like Frye and Coleman. Entertaining as hell and very likable, but he was never really good to begin with.
 
So, you're telling me in modern day UFC, if Steve Jennum was the replacement fighter, Jones would duck him too?

He was not ducking chael he just wanted more time to prepare with chael being a better wrestler and being able to fight southpaw and orthodox. It still sucks we are not getting the henderson vs jones fight because the winner of that fight would have pretty much cemented themselves as one the greatest mma fighters of all time. Either way all the bs is done anyway The UFC cancled 151 and thats that.

We can only hope no one drops from 152 because of injury.
 

Chamber

love on your sleeve
Has anyone who was a champion at the time in the modern UFC fought a different opponent on 8 days notice for the belt?

The situation with Jones is irrelevant. Everyone keeps bringing up the "1 fight card" excuse but how many events have had both main eventers pull out and gone on as unplanned? The original UFC 145 was cancelled for the same reason.
 
And lets not forget friends - two months ago Dana & Co took Silva vs Sonnen off the main event for 147 and left us with this for a $60 PPV card ...

Rich Franklin vs Wanderlei Silva
Cezar Ferreira vs Sergio Moraes
Rony Jason vs Godofredo Pepey
Fabricio Werdum vs Mike Russow
Hacran Dias vs Yuri Alcantara

I'd consider myself a hardcore mma fan and more knowledgeable of fighters than most people .. present company excluded of course .. but even I have no idea who half the people on that card were.

And lets compare 147 to what would've been a solid card for 151 even without Jones/TBA (albeit one I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 for):

Jake Ellenberger vs. Jay Hieron
Dennis Siver vs. Eddie Yagin
Dennis Hallman vs. Thiago Tavares
John Lineker vs. Yasuhiro Urushitani
Danny Castillo vs. Michael Johnson

Bottom line: UFC 147 was AXSTV worthy and 151 would've at the very least been UFC on Fuel worthy yet 147 still went on but 151 wasn't good enough for some reason.
 
UFC 147 was getting dat Globo money from Brazil since it was basically a TUF finale for them. Anything extra from PPV was a bonus more or less.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
And lets not forget friends - two months ago Dana & Co took Silva vs Sonnen off the main event for 147 and left us with this for a $60 PPV card ...

Rich Franklin vs Wanderlei Silva
Cezar Ferreira vs Sergio Moraes
Rony Jason vs Godofredo Pepey
Fabricio Werdum vs Mike Russow
Hacran Dias vs Yuri Alcantara

I'd consider myself a hardcore mma fan and more knowledgeable of fighters than most people .. present company excluded of course .. but even I have no idea who half the people on that card were.

And lets compare 147 to what would've been a solid card for 151 even without Jones/TBA (albeit one I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 for):

Jake Ellenberger vs. Jay Hieron
Dennis Siver vs. Eddie Yagin
Dennis Hallman vs. Thiago Tavares
John Lineker vs. Yasuhiro Urushitani
Danny Castillo vs. Michael Johnson

Bottom line: UFC 147 was AXSTV worthy and 151 would've at the very least been UFC on Fuel worthy yet 147 still went on but 151 wasn't good enough for some reason.

147 went on because they had two name fighters in the main event, and Ace agreed to take on Wandy when he was actually training for Cung Le - and Wandy agreed to stay on even though he was going to face Bisping.

That's what fighters do.
 
147 went on because they had two name fighters in the main event, and Ace agreed to take on Wandy when he was actually training for Cung Le - and Wandy agreed to stay on even though he was going to face Bisping.

That's what fighters do.

Ignoring the fact that Ace had just turned down Gustaffson at 133 because he wasn't a big enough name .. cause that's what fighters do. And we all know Wandy isn't embarrassed about losing or being KOed. Could explain why he's not a multi-million dollar champ with a huge Nike endorsement.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
Ignoring the fact that Ace had just turned down Gustaffson at 133 because he wasn't a big enough name .. cause that's what fighters do. And we all know Wandy isn't embarrassed about losing or being KOed. Could explain why he's not a multi-million dollar champ with a huge Nike endorsement.

If someone doesn't want to fight someone in the twilight of their career because they only want name fights, that's completely fine with me. When you're heading towards 40 and fought your ass off for years, you have that right because there's nothing to gain from beating a prospect.

That's a totally different issue than having a fight scheduled for a date and pulling out because the fighter is a little bit different at most, than the one you were scheduled to fight.

And Wanderlei was never as good as Jones, so Nike sponsorship doesn't have anything to do with it.
 

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke

best part of first page was that I saw this gem
EX5v4.jpg
 

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
Has anyone who was a champion at the time in the modern UFC fought a different opponent on 8 days notice for the belt?

by Modern do you mean last 2 years? there has been many Main Events that have shuffled opponents due to injury.
Being Champ doesn't give you a pass..it gives you an obligation.
 

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
Ignoring the fact that Ace had just turned down Gustaffson at 133 because he wasn't a big enough name .. cause that's what fighters do. And we all know Wandy isn't embarrassed about losing or being KOed. Could explain why he's not a multi-million dollar champ with a huge Nike endorsement.

oh come on thats all cheap as shit.

Ace has been a company man forever, he always stepped up when asked..big deal if he passed on Guss

I don't care how much Nike is sucking the JBJ dick atm. Do not compare him to Wand.

Wand was an international sensation for fucking years. The motherfucker fought who ever the fuck they put in front of him. Fighting Crocop in basically a kickboxing match , then Mark Hunt being outweighed by about 100 pounds.

Fedor backing out of second round of open weight grand prix due to injury..who steps in WANDERLEI FUCKING SILVA ...on short notice against the best heavyweights in the world, he proceeds to get fucking destroyed by a highlight crocop knockout. Man is a LEGEND.

John Jones doesn't deserve to even be in the same category as Wand does.
If Wand had been an American that spoke English fluently? what endorsement wouldn't he have had?
 
So Jones getting the rug pulled out from under him and not wanting to take a fight on 8 days notice against someone that a) isn't in his wait class b) doesn't deserve a title shot c) has already been training for him since he knew his teammate was injured is weak sauce. But Franklin not wanting to fight a guy just because he isn't famous enough is ok because he's 36 and a company man?
 

TheNatural

My Member!
So Jones getting the rug pulled out from under him and not wanting to take a fight on 8 days notice against someone that a) isn't in his wait class b) doesn't deserve a title shot c) has already been training for him since he knew his teammate was injured is weak sauce. But Franklin not wanting to fight a guy just because he isn't famous enough is ok because he's 36 and a company man?

Jones got backed by the UFC without so much as a slap on the wrist for his DUI. You know, the one where he wrecked his Bentley, with passengers, and is lucky no one wasn't in the road at the time or he would be in jail for a few years and his life over?

Like I said before, if he were an NFL player he would have been strung up, suspended at least a quarter of the year without pay, and all sorts of other problems.

You guys act like Dana is running a sweatshop in the UFC. Yet, fighters can break the law, Dana doesn't give a shit. Fighters can act like morons and say whatever stupid shit they want, Dana doesn't give a shit (for the most part.) Fighters can roid up, and while the NSAC might hit them, UFC isn't going to do shit so you're clean there. Fighters can decline fights all they want and basically set their own schedule, and they've complied. And if you're injured? You have your own insurance there to pay for your surgery and rehab.

And all he asks is for guys to not pull a Guida and fight like shit, and fight when you're scheduled and accommodate a replacement fight if someone pulls out - like 99% of fighters do in the real world. Not that tough of a life.
 
How did Jones get the rug pulled from under him? lol

The dude was gonna go from fighting Dan Henderson, a dude that could probably destroy everyone else in LH to fighting a MW who would come in not so top form.
 
Jones got backed by the UFC without so much as a slap on the wrist for his DUI. You know, the one where he wrecked his Bentley, with passengers, and is lucky no one wasn't in the road at the time or he would be in jail for a few years and his life over?

Like I said before, if he were an NFL player he would have been strung up, suspended at least a quarter of the year without pay, and all sorts of other problems.

You guys act like Dana is running a sweatshop in the UFC. Yet, fighters can break the law, Dana doesn't give a shit. Fighters can act like morons and say whatever stupid shit they want, Dana doesn't give a shit (for the most part.) Fighters can roid up, and while the NSAC might hit them, UFC isn't going to do shit so you're clean there. Fighters can decline fights all they want and basically set their own schedule, and they've complied. And if you're injured? You have your own insurance there to pay for your surgery and rehab.

And all he asks is for guys to not pull a Guida and fight like shit, and fight when you're scheduled and accommodate a replacement fight if someone pulls out - like 99% of fighters do in the real world. Not that tough of a life.

I don't know who "you guys" is, who that rant was addressed to, where it came from, or what it had to do with anything but all I'm saying in my past few posts is Jones is 100% not responsible for the cancellation of UFC 151. Some people have a weird hard on for him because they perceive him as arrogant (usually the same people who eat up Sonnen's arrogance with a spoon) or he doesn't conform to some weird kind of concept of being a warrior / samurai / Bruce Lee.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
I don't know who "you guys" is, who that rant was addressed to, where it came from, or what it had to do with anything but all I'm saying in my past few posts is Jones is 100% not responsible for the cancellation of UFC 151. Some people have a weird hard on for him because they perceive him as arrogant (usually the same people who eat up Sonnen's arrogance with a spoon) or he doesn't conform to some weird kind of concept of being a warrior / samurai / Bruce Lee.

I don't care about if he's arrogant or not. I never disliked the guy for the whole weed ratting stuff and was a fan before all this, since I don't pay too much mind to what fighters say.

He is responsible since he was the main event. Like Dana said, he can't force anyone to fight, but he explained the event would be canned if he didn't fight then and he didn't.

You don't want to blame Jones, then that's fine. It's a hell of a way to treat a company who backed him when he had a DUI though and would have been hammered if he were in another sport.
 

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
but all I'm saying in my past few posts is Jones is 100% not responsible for the cancellation of UFC 151

No argument I agree wholeheartedly, UFC should never put on events that can't handle the loss of the ME.
We've had many ME's scrubbed and everything bumps up and the cards been fine.

he doesn't conform to some weird kind of concept of being a warrior / samurai / Bruce Lee.

Well thats just how likeable a star he is.
Look its easy,..your either a Hero,or a Heal.

At this level of super stardom..there isn't room for in betweens.. that's whats awesome about Chael..he knows his role. This isn't a sport where you can sit back with no personality and rely on your stats to carry you like baseball or basketball. You need to BE someone.
Once Jones loses a couple times, he'll be like Big Timmy...begging to come back to the game, regretting that he acted like a schmuck when he was the champ
 

TheNatural

My Member!
No argument I agree wholeheartedly, UFC should never put on events that can't handle the loss of the ME.
We've had many ME's scrubbed and everything bumps up and the cards been fine.

Most are not though. Just this year, Reem suspended and JDS agreed to take on Mir. Bisping hurt, Ace took him on even though he was scheduled to face Cung Le. Faber took on Barao, and Dana even lied to his face about who he would face to save it as a 'surprise.'

You can't expect every card to be stacked, it's unrealistic. While I agree that the amount of events needs to be cut down, they have a deal with FOX now and they have to fill those dates. There's plenty of cards that would have been cancelled if someone didn't go out of their way to step up.
 
Well friends all I can say is you have your opinions about Jones and I have mine and we won't be able to convince each other of our sides and thats fine. That's what makes this thread go round.

He is responsible since he was the main event. Like Dana said, he can't force anyone to fight, but he explained the event would be canned if he didn't fight then and he didn't.

I don't know all the facts but I don't know that that's true. I'm pretty sure Jackson said in his interview with Renallo that they had no idea their turning down of Sonnen would result in the cancellation. They didn't get any warning. And if UFC was gonna start firing people for misdemeanor offenses the sport would've been in major trouble from the get go.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
Well friends all I can say is you have your opinions about Jones and I have mine and we won't be able to convince each other of our sides and thats fine. That's what makes this thread go round.



I don't know all the facts but I don't know that that's true. I'm pretty sure Jackson said in his interview with Renallo that they had no idea their turning down of Sonnen would result in the cancellation. They didn't get any warning. And if UFC was gonna start firing people for misdemeanor offenses the sport would've been in major trouble from the get go.

I'll take Dana's word over Jackson's.

And like I said, same thing happens in the NFL, you don't think his ass would have been suspended for at least a quarter of the year?
 
I'll take Dana's word over Jackson's.

And like I said, same thing happens in the NFL, you don't think his ass would have been suspended for at least a quarter of the year?

You'll take the word of a hot headed loud mouth whose own mother disowned him and trashed him in a book? Also I don't see why you keep comparing the NFL to UFC. Their moral guidelines and business practices are apples and oranges.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
You'll take the word of a hot headed loud mouth whose own mother disowned him and trashed him in a book? Also I don't see why you keep comparing the NFL to UFC. Their moral guidelines and business practices are apples and oranges.

His mother seems more wacked out that Eminem's.

There's no motivation for Dana to lie and lose millions on a cancelled show. You really think he went "oh um jeez, Jones really would take a fight but I'm just going to bullshit, cancel the PPV, lose millions, and trash my champion just for the hell of it."

They obviously knew and Dana obviously laid it out for them.
 

dream

Member
I wrote a long essay about all the shit that went down this past week. But first,

5247bb74e68f11e1be6a12313820455d_7.jpg


For years, one of Dana White’s talking points has been that unlike boxing, if something happens where a main eventer falls out, the UFC never cancels the show. After events of the past week, he can’t say that anymore.

UFC 151, scheduled for 9/1 at the Mandalay Bay Events Center in Las Vegas, will go down in history as the show that never happened.

Because marketing was already out for 9/22 in Toronto as UFC 152, 10/13 in Rio de Janeiro as UFC 153, and 11/17 in Montreal as UFC 154, the number 151 will be a historical reminder of the show that was canceled when light heavyweight champion Jon Jones refused a match with Chael Sonnen, after scheduled opponent Dan Henderson had to cancel due to a knee injury. Jones refusal to face a new opponent on such a late date left the entire UFC stunned because injuries and opponent changes are common in this sport. Jones not only is a fighter on a different level talent-wise than Sonnen, but he had a stylistic edge and the advantage of having three months of fight training against a late add who had no camp at all. And it was a five round title fight.

In this case, it was something nobody fathomed, given how Jones has been so dominant, and would face a guy moving up in a weight class who would on paper appear to have very little chance to win. He was being gift wrapped an opponent, one of the company’s biggest and best known talkers and given major advantages. Plus, or Jones, he was in the ultimate no-lose situation. It was likely Jones would be one of the largest, if not the largest favorite going in when it comes to odds, for any title fight in recent memory.

But Jones and coach Greg Jackson didn’t see things that way. Jackson told Jones that if he took the fight, “It would be the biggest mistake of your entire career.”

Their argument is that they had no game plan for Sonnen, and that being asked eight days before the fight only gave them three training days to adapt, since hard training ends the week before the fight. Sonnen has some similarities to Henderson, in the sense both are wrestlers, but more differences. Sonnen is a lefty who shoots low and relies on his wrestling to win. Henderson is a right-handed bomber with power in both hands, who uses is wrestling to rough people up in the clinch, but the big punch is his prime weapon. Still, Jones is physically bigger, younger, more talented and would be in far better shape. An in-shape Sonnen had trouble taking down Michael Bisping, and couldn’t get Anderson Silva down in the second round, nor stand with him for any length of time.

The show was canceled because it was a one match show, and with the high injury rate of fighters in camp, a one match show on PPV is inherently a risk. But UFC has had problems with late injuries on almost every show. Somehow, things have always ended up working out. This show was hurt when the No. 2 match fell apart when Josh Koscheck suffered a herniated disc in his lower back. This put him out of the fight with Jake Ellenberger. Whether they would have continued the show had Koscheck not been hurt is an unanswered question that may make for speculation, but ultimately doesn’t matter. Koscheck was replaced by the returning Jay Hieron, who unquestionably could not viably headline a show of this magnitude. There was nothing of marquee value underneath.

The risk element caught up after White thought once again he had pulled the rabbit out of his hat–in this case Sonnen. Sonnen’s talking arguably could have garnered more interest in the fight than Henderson, even if Henderson was the tougher and more deserving opponent. It was unfathomable, because no fighter in a similar situation had ever pulled out. Did the weak undercard play a part in the show being canceled? A big part.

When White made the announcement, and in subsequent statements and a press release, he blamed the show being canceled almost entirely on Jones, perhaps the most talented young fighter in the sport.

There are two ways of looking at that. The first is that Jones’ refusal to face Sonnen is what it is, but that part of the job of a promoter is to protect his assets from things that will taint them to the public. Fans want to believe fighters, particularly the champions are people who won’t back down from any fight. They hate hearing about anyone turning down fights, even when it makes little business sense. Jones is one of the biggest drawing cards in the company. Forget that he’s hard to deal with, and privately people are frustrated with him, the public image should be he’s somebody special, who it’s worth you paying money to see. In the same situation, I would probably think the same about Jones as White did when he went off on him. I’d like to think in the same situation, I’d put all the heat on Jackson, whether fair or not, and take it off Jones.

The M-1 Global crew did that for years with Fedor Emelianenko, playing bad cop while the hardcore fans believed in this illusion of this fearless Russian killer, whose weakness was a loyalty to management that were keeping the fights they wanted to see from happening.

The other is that the nature of MMA is that this was going to come out anyway. Once Sonnen, the mouth that roared, was asked, and accepted. Jones, with all his talent, turned it down. That revived Sonnen as a featured fighter. He was back doing media and Jones undid much if not all of the damage down when Anderson Silva took him apart less than two months ago. Sonnen is the only guy the past week who came out as a bigger star. He’s got non-stop material, as the guy who made Jones back down. I wouldn’t view it that way, but he could and will frame it that way. Some will be entertained. Some will get behind him. Some will be annoyed. But it garners interest and if the fight does happen, it will be box office. But the odds are strong the fight will never happen unless Jones loses the title. This shot was a fluke of needing a warm body. It won’t likely happen again. To actually earn the shot, he’s going to have to get a few wins as a light heavyweight, and at least one against a legit top level contender. Sonnen would not be the favorite against any light heavyweight in the current title picture.

To tell the story, it’s best to go back to the start. UFC 151, headlined by Jones defending against Henderson, was looking to be the third biggest UFC show so far this year, behind the Anderson Silva vs. Sonnen fight in July and the all heavyweight show in May. Under normal circumstances, you’d be looking at 450,000 to 550,000 buys. The current UFC climate, where the product is cold due to audience burnout, may lead to a lower number than the fight may have done last year.

At some point during the first week of August, Henderson suffered a knee injury in training. That was only a few weeks after the UFC Fighter Summit, where everyone was implored, as they constantly are, to alert White or Joe Silva of any injuries, even if you aren’t pulling out, to allow them to devise a backup plan. He figured two weeks of rest, while at an inopportune time, it would allow him to heal up enough to get through the fight. He went back to hard training on 8/18. The session didn’t go well. That night he went to the Strikeforce show in San Diego. He spoke to UFC officials, told them things were going well, and vowed to have surprises for Jon Jones in two weeks. He was not limping at all.

On 8/19, he tried to call Dana White, but didn’t have his new phone number, so it wasn’t until 8/19 or 8/20 that anyone in UFC were aware of the issue. One could blame Henderson not following protocol for what ended up happening. But let’s just say in early August he had told White that his knee was hurting but, as was his thoughts at the time, he was going to rest it and still planned on fighting. At that point White and Joe Silva wouldn’t be so rushed in trying to formulate a backup plan and could set something up if needed. But in this specific case, it played no part in it.

It wasn’t until 8/18 that Henderson realized, when he went back to training, that he hadn’t healed as fast as he expected. There were positions in a fight that the knee not being stable were going to hurt him in.

Henderson was flown to Las Vegas to see the UFC doctors. Still, on 8/21, Henderson and Jones did a press conference call with White. At the time the fight was still on, but both Henderson and White knew it was at least in jeopardy. I wouldn’t expect any hints, and Henderson was talking about having a good camp, no mention of any issues. The next day he was diagnosed with a partially torn MCL. It wasn’t bad enough to need surgery, but the doctor said he could not fight on it. Henderson needs to rest the knee for several weeks, then rehab it. He said he would be ready to return and would like to be booked on the 12/29 show. When asked, White wouldn’t make any definite statements regarding whether Henderson would get the title shot on his return or not, because you don’t know what the state of the division will be months from now.

Word started spreading on 8/22 that Henderson had a knee injury and the fight was in jeopardy. Questions about the card surfaced given that there was nothing of marquee value underneath.

That night, Henderson tweeted about what a great workout he had, mentioning the names of a few training partners. One of the names mentioned was Tarec Saffiedine. That was curious because just a few minutes earlier, someone asked Saffiedine on twitter if the rumors on Henderson being injured were true. Saffiedine said he didn’t know, but he hoped not, noting he hadn’t seen Henderson since Saturday. Once Henderson posted, Saffiedine took down his post. Obviously Henderson was posting to get rumors stopped that he was hurt. But why, since by that point he knew he wasn’t fighting and White had already called and gotten the okay from Sonnen?

The next morning, White called a press conference. It was supposed to be the announcement of Jones vs. Sonnen. Then came his issues with Jones. At 6 a.m. on 8/23, he called Sonnen and told him it looks like the fight isn’t happening as Jones won’t take it. However, White said that he was still working on it until realizing there was no hope at closer to 10 a.m., when the decision was made to cancel the show because Jones wouldn’t fight. Without him, there was no main event.

Ultimately, if they weren’t going to face Sonnen because they hadn’t trained for him, it doesn’t matter if Henderson had alerted them, because he was still pulling out eight days before, and even if they had a guy ready who had trained for a few weeks, Jones was not fighting anyone new.

Tons of people were hurt, from fans with non-refundable tickets who were planning on coming in, to hotels and restaurants in the area that were expecting business. All of the undercard fighters had spent two to three months of hard fight training trying to peak on 9/1. They had maybe two or three days left when finding out they weren’t fighting. Plus, they were likely counting on fight pay for their expenses. Everyone involved was likely at the point of mental burnout and physical burnout. That’s what peaking is, you create a situation where you are in your best possible shape, which is a killer but going any longer, you run your body down and it becomes overtraining. Plus they have the expense of fight camp without the pay for the fight. Granted, the fights are all going to happen over the next few months. The fighters are likely to be closer to overtrained and farther from a peak, but it’s still fair because both fighters will have faced the same circumstances. But it does increase the injury risk when you keep training at that level for that long. Dana White said they were going to help the fighters out financially to get through that period where they expected to get paid and won’t.

UFC and the cable companies took the biggest hit. Both had already started an extensive ad campaign. They were heavily promoting the show, and budgeting expecting a certain amount of revenue from that show, which would be expected to be in the ballpark of $20 million plus in revenue between the two parties.

White then announced Jones vs. Lyoto Machida would take place on 9/22 in Toronto, the very fight Jones had said days earlier he didn’t want. Ads immediately ran on the web site. But there was a problem. Jones did agree to face Machida. The prior week he made clear that he didn’t want to fight, saying it was a business and he didn’t think a fight with Machida would draw since he beat Machida last year by standing choke. And he said, not only would it not draw, but it was a major risk because Machida is very good. He said that he said it because he wanted fans to understand this is a business and educate them to what it is.

At the same time, Jones was contradicting himself saying he wouldn’t fight Sonnen, saying this isn’t WWE, where you get title shots just because you are popular. So he didn’t want to waste his time fighting the guy who wouldn’t draw well, who he admitted was really good, because he’s a businessman. Based on risk/reward ratio, but didn’t want to fight the guy who presumably would draw well, and is the lowest risk.

The problem was, Machida didn’t agree to the fight. That was nobody’s fault but those at UFC to publicly announce a time and date of a fight that one guy hadn’t even been asked about. Machida couldn’t be asked because he was flying from Los Angeles to Brazil. When contacted, Machida said he couldn’t take the fight on such short notice. Once again, White was shocked that a fighter turned down a title shot. Making that announcement without checking with him is hard to believe, since Machida had turned down a short notice fight in the past with Rashad Evans last year (that Tito Ortiz saved a show by taking). Machida said he wanted a minimum four week camp, so he’d just miss the Toronto date. He said he’d be willing to face Jones on 10/13 in Rio de Janeiro. But they were now already advertising Jones in Toronto, so the company felt they needed to find someone else.

Shogun Rua was called next. Rua had a tough fight on 8/4 with Brandon Vera, unlike Machida, who was barely touched by Ryan Bader in his win. He also turned it down, saying he’d need a longer camp. Sonnen was never spoken with, as White said Jones had already turned Sonnen down. Jones that day was claiming he would have been willing to face Sonnen in Toronto. UFC also has problems with fighters with felonies on their record fighting in Toronto, and that also could have been an issue with Sonnen in doing a short-notice fight in Canada. Instead, Lorenzo Feritta offered the fight to Vitor Belfort, who accepted it.

Late that night, UFC announced Jones vs. Belfort. From a sports standpoint, Belfort has won seven of his last eight, with his only loss being via knockout to Anderson Silva. But he’s been fighting one weight class down, like Sonnen. But he’s coming off a win, while Sonnen was coming off a loss. Belfort did draw well with Anderson Silva last year. Sonnen would likely draw significantly more than Belfort even if Belfort may be more justifiable based on win-loss record. Oddsmakers then opened the odds at 13-to-1, making Belfort the biggest underdog in recent UFC title match history.

There are a million questions and analogies that can be made for what went down. Who is at fault. Who is to blame.

As far as Henderson, you can’t blame a guy for getting hurt, or for an injury healing slower than he expected. He was at fault for not alerting UFC. Jon Jones had apologized and said he would take the blame for the show being canceled on twitter. After doing that, the next day, Jones wrote, “Hendo injured three plus weeks ago, who carries the blame now?”

UFC has hurt themselves running so many events in such a short period of time. They’ve presented three PPV shows since June that have driven the base of customers down because they were shows so many regulars felt weren’t PPV caliber. Once Koscheck got hurt, this show, had Jones gotten injured, would have been weaker than any of those three shows. They were in a position where had the wrong thing happened, they would have been forced to cancel. Perhaps this will lead to PPV shows with a stronger No. 2 and No. 3 match, and perhaps cutting down on the number of shows, so the star power doesn’t get so diluted. There was a time when the demand for the UFC brand was so high that just UFC coming to town would draw big crowds no matter the card. Recent attendance numbers tell a different story. A weak UFC show without what the public believes are real stars is not selling tickets. The supply of shows, due to the lack of what the public sees as big stars on top, is now exceeding demand. The falling numbers on PPV for all but the big shows tells the same story. Perhaps this is a wake-up call. Perhaps they’ll view this as a one-time fluke and that the current business plan is working. Perhaps there is an argument that for all the obvious negatives in ticket sales and PPV numbers, by running all these shows, they are creating television content that in the long run has more value than the lesser money generated from declining ticket sales and bottom-level PPVs.

But Jones didn’t get hurt. The guy who caused this show to be canceled was Jones. Simply, if he had accepted, something nearly every fighter in the same situation would have done, the show was going on. Plenty of people made plenty of mistakes. It would have been partially or even greatly Henderson’s fault the show was canceled if UFC couldn’t have gotten a replacement because he sprung the news on them late. It would have been UFC’s fault if they put together a weak show, and then had nowhere to turn when a main eventer got hurt, because every fight it at risk of a late injury. Either you are like boxing and promote based on one fight and cancel regularly, or you are promoting deep enough shows that you have enough to present a PPV quality show if late injuries or other problems occur.

But once Sonnen agreed, UFC had a main event to save. All were at risk of making decisions that could have killed the show. In the end, no Henderson decision had any bearing. In the end, UFC matchmaking did have a bearing, because the show was so weak it couldn’t continue when the top fight fell out. But they did have a viable enough show to go forward until Jones declined the fight.

From a business standpoint going forward, this is a bad situation for UFC if Jones isn’t an anomoly. Frequent injuries and card changes are inherent in the business as it is now. Every show has multiple changes, some coming days before the show, some a week or two. Many involve fighters with little in the way of fight preparation or time to form specific training for the opponent’s style. Ironically, almost every fighter on the roster has far more at risk than Jones. Yet every one in that situation doesn’t pull out. Guys who haven’t trained and are asked late turn down fights frequently. But the guys who did their camp, when their opponent gets hurt and a new name is brought in, many say yes with no reservation. Some complain, are told the choice is take this fight or you don’t have an opponent, and at that point, almost everyone fights. If main eventers don’t, we would have multiple cancellations per year and fans would learn not to make plans to travel from out of town to shows, and the entire UFC live show economy is not based on the local market, but on people traveling to the local market and bringing tourists and revenue to town. That’s the reality of the sport today. That’s one of the responsibilities of being a main event fighter, and even more so, of being a champion.

This was bad enough, but what if, as many suggested, Jon Jones vs. Henderson was put on the FOX show a few weeks ago, Henderson gets hurt in camp, and Jones then says he won’t fight a new opponent on late notice. The financial hit wouldn’t be as bad as the tens of millions of a big PPV going down, but the broadcast partner would be furious, show sponsors would be furious, and if it happened twice, everyone involved would start second guessing who they are doing business with. That’s the reality. Those arguing Jones stood up for fighters (even though 85-90% of fighters were critical of him, and some castigated them for being sheep, afraid of Dana White, when in fact, they just understood the realities of what being a fighter in the modern sport is) against oppressive management also then would have to accept a business that is in short order going to draw smaller crowds, be less valuable to local communities, and will be perceived as too unpredictable to devote prime time network real estate or to put major money into sponsorship.

In the week since Jones vs. Belfort was announced, Toronto has sold about 1,200 tickets, so the advance right now is 8,000 tickets and $1.4 million. I’m not sure if adding Jones to what was a weak lineup that wasn’t selling soft tells you Jones still has drawing power after this, or tells you he doesn’t. It’s way behind the pace of the last show in the city, that Jones also headlined, in his win over Machida. That card, headlined by Joseph Benavidez vs. Demetrious Johnson for the flyweight title and Michael Bisping vs. Brian Stann, was not going to do well on PPV. This will help the show significantly on PPV. It’s hard to say if this will pull Jones’ lowest numbers since he won the title, but one would think so. There is less interest in Belfort as a challenger than anyone he’s faced so far. Because this is a unique situation, it’s hard to say if it’ll make a difference, and if so, how significant, in people willing to buy to see Jones fight. The only expectation is they’ll boo him more than ever, but whether that’s good or bad is something we’ll learn.

UFC burying him at every turn risks his drawing power at a time when they have few big draws. And make no mistake about it, that is the company strategy.

But the most perplexing is why Jones made this call. It was a decision based on him and his people having a complete lack of self awareness of the potential value or his name and brand. Even if the argument is he has no responsibility to help UFC, he showed a total lack of big picture awareness of his own personal business. Being a fighter is not living in a vacuum where winning is everything and losing is disastrous. Winning and losing are very important cogs in the wheel of building a career. Coming back from losses and connecting with the public is what makes stars. Only a tiny percentage of fans know win/loss records of boxers or MMA fighters. The masses know the name and the personality and if they think they are stars. Those who don’t understand this are left to pontificate about why Randy Couture really wasn’t the star everyone thought he was because of all his losses, not realizing it’s not the masses, but them, who are missing the point.
 

dream

Member
Wins and losses and being champion is very good, and it guarantees you solid paydays as long as you are on top. But Jones was already becoming a draw and had potential to be so much more than just some name who defends a belt a few times a year on UFC shows. His physical gifts give him the potential to be an all-time great. But even that doesn’t guarantee being what Jones could be and aspired to be.

Jose Aldo Jr. has a shot at being a long-time dominant world champion. So does Dominick Cruz. Perhaps Joseph Benavidez does as well. But none of the three are ever going to be filthy rich or mainstream stars, no matter how often they win. It’s not fair, but it’s reality.

Jones got a Nike sponsorship. Jones gets a PPV cut. In other words, while winning helps, it’s far more important for him for his future to be the guy people get behind, the superstar people want to buy tickets to see, and gets people to buy merchandise. That requires having a successful career with key wins or that can’t happen, but his actions in and out of the ring and how the public sees him is just as important.

Jones’ popularity has already declined greatly over the past year. Whether right or wrong, his constant religious talk, while having a girlfriend with kids, and being in a car with two women at 5 a.m. one night, drunk and destroying his Bentley on a telephone pole rubs people the wrong way. Even before that, he heard a lot of boos against Rashad Evans, who everyone else becomes a crowd favorite against. He was booed against Machida. He’ll be booed heavily against Belfort.

Perhaps all this publicity makes him a bigger star, and he can be a bigger PPV draw because people dislike him so much they’ll pay hoping someone beats him. Perhaps it’ll just turn people off. Perhaps in three months, if he has a spectacular win, everyone will forget. Perhaps it’ll take a series of wins. Nobody has never been in this position before so there is no way of predicting what will happen. As far as UFC burying him, the history of Anderson Silva tells you they can hate you one year and love you the next.

One part of the story is that hours after the show was canceled, Ed Soares told Dana White that Anderson Silva, who wasn’t even planning on fighting until early next year, would have been willing to save the show. He’s have to fight at light heavyweight because he couldn’t make 185 on short notice, but would have fought anyone except Jones. The show already was canceled, so who knows if Silva really would have done it. It was just another top guy among many who in their own way was publicly burying Jones’ decision.

Silva wasn’t particularly well liked by fans at one point and had bad fights with Patrick Cote, Thales Leitis and Demian Maia in a relatively short period of time. Today, and partially due to Sonnen, he’s just regarded as the best and those fights are largely forgotten memories. That’s an argument that in time if Jones keeps winning, this will be forgotten But, for all his success in the win/loss column, Silva is still not a proven draw unless he’s against the right opponent. And he’s not a merchandise seller.

A fighter who the public and those in his own profession believe was selfish, backed down from a fight, and cost his fellow fighters pay, cost the organization that covered for his indiscretions tens of millions, did hurt himself short-term. Long-term, is is a new and unique enough sport that there is no historical precedent. In time, this incident will be forgotten. But if the next few years of Jones’ life is a continuing pattern of the last year, he may hold the title and have a winning streak, but he’s not going have the appeal to the public those who handle him would want him to have.

The worst part of this decision making is he was put in a no-lose situation. He’s a significantly better fighter than Sonnen, and had the advantage of a full camp, which is gigantic. Sonnen is primarily a wrestler, but he’s older, physically smaller, would have no gas tank for a five round fight given that he couldn’t implement his wrestling game on Silva past the first round with a full camp. The best case scenario is he wins in the first round, and while the company can thank Sonnen for saving their show, another quick loss in a title match kills his career as anything more than a colorful gatekeeper. Sonnen was risking his status as a title contender and his ability to be in huge money fights. Yes, he could still make money for years in the sport, but his days of getting the big score you get from a big selling PPV main event would be either over, or bleak.

In January, Sonnen and Chris Weidman were in the same situation. Both risked their careers under adverse situations. Sonnen had trained for Mark Munoz, and then after Munoz got hurt and pulled out nine days before fight time, he got switched to facing Michael Bisping. Unlike this situation, Bisping was going in on equal footing, with a full camp, just, like Sonnen, having trained for a completely different fighter. By taking the fight, Sonnen was risking a loss that would end his chances of facing Anderson Silva. Sonnen had made money, but the difference between a win over Bisping and a loss was giant money, life changing money for him. I can recall being at the Elite XC show when Ken Shamrock was cut the day of the show and couldn’t perform in the main event. Frank Shamrock was there as an announcer, with no fight training, way undersized, a star who never had network exposure, who couldn’t possibly be in his best shape and his success depended on conditioning. Similarly, Peter Aerts in Holland a few years back was at a show to announce, and when Bob Sapp pulled out over money issues, he went into the ring and fought Ernesto Hoost, the greatest of all-time, with no training. He didn’t even have his gear, and was wearing giant Semmy Schilt’s oversized shorts. He lost, but the losses added, not detracted, to his career and legacy. An aging Lennox Lewis, scheduled for an easy fight against Kirk Johnson, when Johnson got hurt, and Vitali Klitschko, the legitimate top contender was the only guy HBO could get on short notice, took the fight and won. You could list stories like this in UFC all day, with Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, Matt Hughes, Rich Franklin who took new opponents late, or came in late, and often lost, yet in the end it defined all of their careers in a positive manner.

Weidman was an up-and-coming middleweight who was called nine days before the show. He had done no fight training and had to lose 32 pounds in ten days and face Demian Maia. He was unbeaten but had never beaten a big name. A loss to Maia would have had a very significant negative repercussions on his career at that point in time. Certainly it would stall his move to top level by a year or more. A bad showing on the big stage while not in shape would leave fans with the perception he’s not a star worth anything. It’s one thing if he already was a star, but someone on the verge of being a star is taking a risk of trying to fight under less than optimal conditions. He risked his career success. Just like so many others have done. The reality is, the company was built on people who risked it, from the owners buying it, to almost every star who ever carried the brand.

Jones had the odds stacked in his favor in the fight like no champion in years. He’s not a coward. He didn’t duck a fight. He made a short-sighted decision. He either is surrounding himself with people who may know fight strategy, but they don’t know the big picture fight game, or he’s not surrounding himself with people who do, or not listening tothem.

If he won, as was likely, he made as much money as would be possible given the circumstances, because no late replacement was going to be able to generate the interest of Sonnen. About the only way he could lose was if lighting were to strike, and it’s very difficult for lightning to hit a fighter in an indoor arena. But had he lost, what would happen? Would he lose the chance at his biggest career fight like Sonnen, or derail his career completely like Weidman? No, he’d get a rematch, given the story, it would be a million buy show, and he’d make more money for a fight than ever before. If he understood how to play it, the loss would make him more popular. Even if he didn’t know how to play it, the loss would make him significantly richer in this unique instance than a win, and he’s the one talking about trying to teach fans to understand business because that’s what this is. A loss could humanize him, which he badly needs. So win, and he makes millions. Lose, and he makes even more millions. The only way he’s hurt is not fighting, or if Sonnen beats him twice in a row. He was risking tons more against Henderson, because a loss there and there’s no guarantee of a rematch. He’s risking more against Belfort, because a loss there and while the rematch would do very well, it wouldn’t do close to what coming back from a loss to Sonnen would do.

While there were all kinds of conspiracy theories going around how Sonnen was training the last week or two, which is still two months less than Jones, that’s not the case. Those in his camp have confirmed he was just talking with teammates about getting back in the gym days before this broke. When he was called on 8/22, he was out of town, with his girlfriend at her father’s house because her father had suffered a very serious health issue.

Henderson said in several interviews that he had never told Sonnen he was injured. There was a time, I believe on 8/14 although that date could be wrong, where Sonnen was hosting UFC Tonight and Henderson was a guest on the phone. Off the air, Sonnen asked him how training was going, and Henderson said he was having an issue with his knee. That’s as far as he went and he didn’t hint of pulling out. Sonnen was already going off on twitter on Jones before that, because that’s what Sonnen does.

Curiously, on 8/17, Jones was on the Abe Kenan radio show and the host brought up Sonnen on twitter. He went off on how Sonnen isn’t talking his way to a title match and even said he complained to Dana White about it. The host said he should fight Sonnen, saying Sonnen has nothing for him, he’d make more money than with any other opponent and would shut him up. On that day, Jones said that he’d face Sonnen any time.

There is an argument that Sonnen simply didn’t deserve a title shot. Of course that’s true and if things were normal he wouldn’t get one. But on eight days notice for a main event, the rules are different. At that point it’s about finding a guy who is available who fans will be interested in seeing.

As far as the fighters on the show, Jake Ellenberger vs. Jay Heiron, Dennis Hallman vs. Thiago Tavares, Danny Castillo vs. Michael Johnson and Shane Roller vs. Jacob Volkmann were all moved to 10/5 in Minneapolis. Takeya Mizugaki vs. Jeff Hougland and Yasuhiro Urushitani vs. John Lineker was moved to 11/10 in Macau. Kyle Noke vs. Charlie Brenneman was moved to 9/22 in Toronto. Others are still in the process of getting new dates.

Belfort will train in South Florida with the Blackzillians, and is expected to be coached by Jones’ former training partner, Rashad Evans.
 

dream

Member
And the usual miscellany, mostly for Natch:

The 8/18 Strikeforce show drew 3,502 fans and $145,510. The paid was between 1,600 and 1,800.

With the exception of Toronto, there is only one North American UFC show on sale right now, which is 10/5 in Minneapolis. There are 3,000 tickets sold for that show. It’s not a good advance but the product isn’t hot and it’s not a lineup that was going to sell a ton of tickets. I figured it going for maybe 5,000 paid. The only other shows on sale are the 9/29 UFC show in Nottingham (about 4,000 sold in a 6,000 seat building) and the Strikeforce show in Sacramento.


They are expecting Seattle to do well, because it’s a FOX special, a good lineup and it’s only the second time in and one of their consistently best PPV markets. Plus the belief is they’ll draw from the strong Vancouver market, another of their best PPV markets. If Montreal doesn’t do well right off the bat when it goes on sale with GSP’s return, that would not be a good sign.


Dan Miller of the Miller brothers, who never turn down a fight (legit), never pull out of a fight no matter how bad things get (and they have gotten bad including the death of in infant child), actually pulled out of the 9/22 show in Toronto where he was to face Sean Pierson. Miller’s son, Danny, will be undergoing a kidney transplant that week in Philadelphia. Lance Benoist will be the replacement.


Those within the UFC believe Ronda Rousey vs. Cris Cyborg is happening even though based on what both have said, they are in a standoff over the weight issue. There is certainly hope to get it on a UFC PPV, but the odds realistically are not good that Showtime will allow that to happen and ultimately it’s their call.

Rousey was quoted this past week in the Sydney Morning Herald as saying that Fighting was, “One of the most human things out there, the most natural thing for people to do, eat, drink, reproduce, fight. To suppress that in society is usually unhealthy.” Socrates she isn’t.


The cutting of Miguel Torres was disciplinary in nature although it was not said what the cause was, only that he was cut. His record wasn’t bad, with a knockout loss to Michael McDonald who is going to be a top star (provided his hands don’t keep betraying him as he’s already broken them a couple of times) and a close loss to Demetrious Johnson, both top guys. He made the rape joke on twitter and was fired, then brought back, and apparently he made some sort of a similar mistake.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
And the usual miscellany, mostly for Natch:

The 8/18 Strikeforce show drew 3,502 fans and $145,510. The paid was between 1,600 and 1,800.

With the exception of Toronto, there is only one North American UFC show on sale right now, which is 10/5 in Minneapolis. There are 3,000 tickets sold for that show. It’s not a good advance but the product isn’t hot and it’s not a lineup that was going to sell a ton of tickets. I figured it going for maybe 5,000 paid. The only other shows on sale are the 9/29 UFC show in Nottingham (about 4,000 sold in a 6,000 seat building) and the Strikeforce show in Sacramento.


They are expecting Seattle to do well, because it’s a FOX special, a good lineup and it’s only the second time in and one of their consistently best PPV markets. Plus the belief is they’ll draw from the strong Vancouver market, another of their best PPV markets. If Montreal doesn’t do well right off the bat when it goes on sale with GSP’s return, that would not be a good sign.


Dan Miller of the Miller brothers, who never turn down a fight (legit), never pull out of a fight no matter how bad things get (and they have gotten bad including the death of in infant child), actually pulled out of the 9/22 show in Toronto where he was to face Sean Pierson. Miller’s son, Danny, will be undergoing a kidney transplant that week in Philadelphia. Lance Benoist will be the replacement.


Those within the UFC believe Ronda Rousey vs. Cris Cyborg is happening even though based on what both have said, they are in a standoff over the weight issue. There is certainly hope to get it on a UFC PPV, but the odds realistically are not good that Showtime will allow that to happen and ultimately it’s their call.

Rousey was quoted this past week in the Sydney Morning Herald as saying that Fighting was, “One of the most human things out there, the most natural thing for people to do, eat, drink, reproduce, fight. To suppress that in society is usually unhealthy.” Socrates she isn’t.


The cutting of Miguel Torres was disciplinary in nature although it was not said what the cause was, only that he was cut. His record wasn’t bad, with a knockout loss to Michael McDonald who is going to be a top star (provided his hands don’t keep betraying him as he’s already broken them a couple of times) and a close loss to Demetrious Johnson, both top guys. He made the rape joke on twitter and was fired, then brought back, and apparently he made some sort of a similar mistake.

Thanks. Looks like most of the sentiment about Jones is echoed in an articulate way.
 

FACE

Banned
for the unintiated, here's an example:

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Here is MMA legend Dan "Hendo" Henderson in the white trunks knocking out some random chunky scrub from Russia. I can't even remember the guy's name, maybe someone can help me out. Anyway, notice how after Hendo knocks the dude's block off and his fat, out of shape carcass slams to the mat, the ref immediately steps in to stop it. If this were boxing, he would have been given a standing 8 count to gather himself and proceed to potentially suffer more damage and blows to his already sensitive brain. If it were football, he could have lied to his coach about his symptoms and be allowed back in the game to, again, cause more damage to his tender brain. MMA saved this Russian can's life so that he could be healthy enough to grace future shitty cards with his presence.

Goddamn it scooter.
 
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