Moé/Lolicon
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SonicMegaDrive
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Pandaman said:
Well, no he isn't. And the reasons are countless as many of them have been outlined throughout this thread.
But it really comes down to what kind of milk you prefer. If you prefer the modern stuff? Great. There's a lot for you to choose from.
I can't fathom how any sane person can possibly think the newer stuff is in any way objectively better than the older stuff. Yeah, there's more potential today what with newer technologies making better things possible. But for one reason or another, it just doesn't happen very often.
Laziness, greed, and pedophilia have corrupted the industry. The market is nearly unrecognizable from what it was when the 'Boom' first began.
PetriP-TNT
Member
It's something a baka gaijin like you wouldn't understandBlack_Ice said:
PetriP-TNT
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I don't have any clue what it is either and I hope to keep it that way.Black_Ice said:
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Wiki's definition of moé:
In short, it's when a person has a very strong fixation for any one particular young girl character in anime. Defenders will often try to claim that it's strictly non-sexual, but this is generally not the case. It's closely intertwined with lolicon, in fact it's a by-product of it.
In short, it's when a person has a very strong fixation for any one particular young girl character in anime. Defenders will often try to claim that it's strictly non-sexual, but this is generally not the case. It's closely intertwined with lolicon, in fact it's a by-product of it.
PetriP-TNT
Member
I think Moé is what they call Moe from Simpsons in FranceBlack_Ice said:
oh noes, the market is different! that never happens! are you really surprised that different generations have different tastes? Do you remember when your parents would tell you how much rock music sucked compared to the 'real music' back in the day? congrats, you've missed the zeitgeist, it happens to all of us.SonicMegaDrive said:
I wont pretend that the 00's is nothing but 5cm, escaflowne and tekkonkincrite, so please don't pretend its nothing but naruto, strike witches and bleach.
As for how 00's anime is objectively better, well when we get past subjective preferences for pedobait Vs. grimdark scifi action heroes, well cell-shading made it better, the average anime is cleaner and more consistent with a higher floor. ofcourse there's alot of bad anime in the 00's, but they've only become more visible because of the boom in the industry and the advent of the internet, so of course when you compare 17 good 90's ova's/tv series/movies Vs. the 2500+ 00's animes there's going to be a difference of average quality due to the sample bias.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Only anime I'm watching now is One Piece. Not a whole lot else I'm interested in.
Bleach and Naruto are good examples of what has happened to anime. :lol
Bleach and Naruto are good examples of what has happened to anime. :lol
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Pandaman said:oh noes, the market is different! that never happens! are you really surprised that different generations have different tastes? Do you remember when your parents would tell you how much rock music sucked compared to the 'real music' back in the day? congrats, you've missed the zeitgeist, it happens to all of us.
I wont pretend that the 00's is nothing but 5cm, escaflowne and tekkonkincrite, so please don't pretend its nothing but naruto, strike witches and bleach.
As for how 00's anime is objectively better, well when we get past subjective preferences for pedobait Vs. grimdark scifi action heroes, well cell-shading made it better, the average anime is cleaner and more consistent with a higher floor. ofcourse there's alot of bad anime in the 00's, but they've only become more visible because of the boom in the industry and the advent of the internet, so of course when you compare 17 good 90's ova's/tv series/movies Vs. the 2500+ 00's animes there's going to be a difference of average quality due to the sample bias.
My parents listen to modern music and like newer things.
I like newer things, too. But when it comes to anime, I usually don't.
Yes, tastes have changed in Japan. And this is due to the changing social climate of their country.
I don't know where you got the number '17' from, but there's far more good series and films than that made during that era.
2500 good anime made in the last 10 years? Really? If you can name me even 50 good ones that don't pander to the lonely otaku, I'll be surprised.
The average anime is 'cleaner'? Well I guess so, since they don't put any detail into the drawing or the animation. It's easy to be 'clean' if everything is done half-assed and done on computers.
*facepalm*SonicMegaDrive said:
alright, name 18 of them.
17 was just a number i pulled from thin air as a stand in for the comparatiuvely small number of 90's animes that made it to the west via VHS, so 18 shouldn't be hard.
Literacy is important, i stated that there were 2500 anime made in total, ofwhich a large percentage have made it to the west thanks to the expanded market and [largely] because of the internet. although i do find it amusing that you reserve the right to dismiss shows on the grounds that they 'pander to lonely otaku' in your eyes. because you know, they aren't people like us.
:lol
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Pandaman said:
Once again, it all comes down to what kind of milk you like to drink. You say there was only 17 good shows from before the 00's? I say there was more. You say there's far more good shows available today? Well, that's great. But the majority of people think otherwise.
As for the lonely otaku comment, yes, that is in large why a lot of the shows made today are unappealing to most people. Because most people are not lonely otaku, and that's exactly who these types of shows are trying to appeal to.
Here, read this: http://blog.toonzone.net/blogs/147/anime-in-the-coming-decade/
It summarizes everything this topic has been talking about.
Dabookerman
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DOBERMAN INC
Member
Dabookerman said:>>>
This is why I saved my original classic series(GoldenBoy included), All I seem to watch now is old shows
Dabookerman
Member
DOBERMAN INC said:This is why I saved my original classic series(GoldenBoy included), All I seem to watch now is old shows
Regardless what people think of Evangelion, it still looks fantastic. I love how the 14 year old girls don't have a hint of "moe" in them.
DOBERMAN INC
Member
Dabookerman said:
That's true, Actually when Evangelion first aired(In English speaking nations) I loved it but I haven't seen it in years now,I just remember the ending being confusing.
oh wow, this is quickly descending into parody. :lolSonicMegaDrive said:
If people with 'your taste' made up the majourity of aniem fans, then studios wouldn't pander to your otaku straw-man, they'd pander to you, the largest market. so unless you think anime companies just don't care for normal business strategies or have been secretly trying to brainwash a generation of pedos then i would suggest that the otaku's probably outnumber you 'normal' people.
I've never seen someone say 'its all up to taste' and then turn so bitter that most people don't share his tastes, but I do see lots of people who then interpret that disagreement as a flaw on the other persons side.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Pandaman said:
Uh, the market for anime is dying. Less and less people are buying anime on both sides of the ocean. Haven't you been paying attention to anything in this topic or any of the various articles posted?
These companies cater to the lonely pedos because they're the ones who spend the most money. But it's nothing more than a desperate effort to try to stay in business.
We aren't 'bitter' because the market is changing. We're concerned because anime is dying. These trends are troubling because if they continue, there will be no market.
You can use all the facepalms and laughing smiley gifs you want, but that's the whole point of it all. It isn't about bashing pedos for being pedos. It's blaming the companies for pandering to the pedos. It's about recognizing that the companies that are producing anime are slowly killing themselves by alienating a good chunk of their potential audience.
SonicMegaDrive said:
They aren't alienating anyone.
The people complaining about the state of anime today don't buy in the first place (they love to live in their nostalgia land), and when they do, they buy shit like Code Geass or Bleach.
How can you blame companies for producing shit (you don't like) when it is literally the shit shows the ones that sell the best?
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i used to watch anime frequently but all this loli shit is embarrassing to watch or be watched watching. And its not the girlie stuff that bothers me.. i took a Lisa Frank notebook to school ffs. Its that the recent animes ive seen have been blatant "Freaks-fap-to-me" shit.
dude, the 'potential audience' was never there. companies moved on to catering to otaku because they could make more money that way, I really have no idea how you figure the industry could stay afloat by going back to that smaller market.SonicMegaDrive said:
the problem with the industry is that its just not that popular at retail, it was a boom that never boomed off of the internet. sure you'll get the odd breakoff success in the profitable childrens market like pokemon, beyblade, yugioh etc, but the main problem anime had when it was trying to expand strongly into the west were that it targeted an age range that suffered from two potent drawbacks: 1). they were too young to buy anime on their own and 2). they were old enough to use the computer and get it for free.
older western anime fans like us are an even smaller market then the otaku, plus its costly to access us on the market. Pandering to us won't save the industry.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Lain said:
Of course they're alienating a lot of people.
Why do you think the industry is dwindling more and more every year? Because people have grown bored and disinterested in anime. Why do you suppose that is?
Dabookerman
Member
What's the argument about. The quality or what's more popular?
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Pandaman said:
See, I don't agree. If they're content with pandering to a niché audience, then eventually they'll end up dying off. It'll end up like the comic book market in the U.S. Just a bunch of old guys will be buying your products and every single year your profits will become less and less and there will be fewer new fans to sell product to. There will always be a market for porn, no matter how small. Porn is porn. It will always be a sure-fire money maker. This has always been true.
I think there's a larger potential market out there, but they have to be more creative. Most of the complaints I hear about people who've gotten tired of anime tell me the same thing - it's all the same stuff, constantly. It's become stale. They just need some new ideas. What made anime so appealing in the first place was that it was all so different.
dabookerman said:
Well, in a way, both. The quality is what affects the popularity. Arguing over which is 'better' is pointless. That's the milk argument again. Apples and oranges, so to speak.
Pretty much what we've been arguing over is that the type of anime being produced today does not hold very much appeal to a lot of the older fans(or even for bringing in newer fans). Or, conversely, whether or not it's even worth trying to appeal to an audience outside the dedicated hardcore otaku.
DieNgamers
Member
Gainax is doing this? Man, how the mighty have fallen! Just one more example that pre90s/90s>00.Drame said:It's so wrong that Gainax is doing the Hanamaru Kindergarten.
For christ's sake, stick with the giant robots Gainax!
The Frankman
Banned
*sees awesome GoldenBoy, then loli anime images*
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Ah, Nadia.
It's still my favorite Gainax series. It's hard to believe it's 20 years old. It's still as vibrant and fresh as ever.
It's still my favorite Gainax series. It's hard to believe it's 20 years old. It's still as vibrant and fresh as ever.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
SonicMegaDrive said:
Nadia was a disappointment for me. Just fell apart halfway through.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
DrForester said:
The only parts I didn't care for were the infamous island episodes.
I've only cared to view those once. I always skip that disc completely. I won't even let friends watch it.
I wouldn't say 90s > 00s or the other way around. It's hard to come up with an objective argument for something like that. My list pretty varied so it's not like I only watch 90s anime actually most of my favorites are from the 00s. One thing is for sure though. There is a lot more shit being produced these days. I just took a look at my list and it's pretty clear what time I stopped following anime (early 2000s). Reason being because of the obvious change in the market started taking place around that time.
The worst anime I ever watched was Macross Frontier, a 2008 anime. Dropped it less than halfway through. I hear it was kind of a hit when it came out :lol
God that show is fucking awful.
The worst anime I ever watched was Macross Frontier, a 2008 anime. Dropped it less than halfway through. I hear it was kind of a hit when it came out :lol
God that show is fucking awful.
Dabookerman
Member
Looking back, the only anime I enjoyed over the past decade was (and I haven't seen much), Azumanga, which is very simplistic, just like the manga, in terms of art, Hellsing Ultimate, Welcome to the NHK and Onegai Sensei.. I think those are the main ones. Rest of them were in the 90s. Oh and of course, Gurren Lagann. Which I thought was a great homage to the classic anime up until episode 9.. when they bring the moe loli Nia in. Getting rid of Kamina was a mistake. After that the series get's a bit boring.SonicMegaDrive said:
SonicMegaDrive
Member
My favorite anime of the 00's was Re: Cutie Honey.
Which doesn't really count, I know.
Now that I think about it, most of what I enjoyed from the past decade were one-shot OAVs and films. But there were some great ones, you gotta admit.
My least favorite was probably Gundam Seed. Not that it was the worst. Just that it represents a lot of what I don't like about modern anime trends.
Which doesn't really count, I know.
Now that I think about it, most of what I enjoyed from the past decade were one-shot OAVs and films. But there were some great ones, you gotta admit.
My least favorite was probably Gundam Seed. Not that it was the worst. Just that it represents a lot of what I don't like about modern anime trends.
I'm curious to know what you OG motherfuckers think about shows like Planetes and Michiko & Hatchin. Seen either of those? I really enjoy those two and have a difficult time finding other character driven shows that are on that level. maybe y'all can point out some older stuff I might have missed?
SonicMegaDrive said:
The issue is that unless you're Disney, Seth MacFarlene etc in the US - Saese San, Conan, and the long range kids series (which series have lasted longer than 10 years or so) in Japan - both networks in both countries really dont care - the Japanese networks couldn't handle it then - they go into spastic colon when they see it now - and they ask money from the animators BEFORE they air on the networks.
They made 40% of there whole budget back on the US market. When the boom became a bust the Japanese animators split from the big companies.
The only way right now to get any sort of relevance now outside being bought out by the Americans and the Europeans is to continue be contracted by US companies (see Batman OVA, Halo and now Dante) to do animation work. Because even the US is much much weaker than Japan is and it has a "union".
To show how things are bad, where is the new Kids series from Japan? Can anybody mention one? Back when pokemon was fresh on everybody's mind - why did the dubbers and even 4Kids wanted One Piece/Naruto (knowing they were going to edit the fuck out of it) instead of a true Kids series?
I never got a true answer from anybody ever since i asked this question. All i ever came up with was that those Kids series were considered - too slow and never had a chance to rake in the money. Its a sad state of affairs.
i dont even know anymore. :lolDabookerman said:
I don't think they're content with the otaku crowd, if anything i would say they just don't know what to do to attract a larger market, so they're stuck between the two demographics we're discussing and trying to play it safe appealing to the homefront otaku army rather then risk another costly expansion. Another issue that might be a problem is that they're mistaking the collapsed anime market in america to be the fault of the content available rather then a horrible failure on the business and marketing side of things.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Pandaman said:
Exactly right. The market failed initially because of two reasons, I think: Poor marketing and over-saturating the market with poor and average shows.
On the Japanese side of things, I think they fail to understand that the market in the US is not necessarily the same as it is in Japan. They charged far too much for licensing fees(and still do) from western distributors. Particularly on niché shows and older programs with a limited potential audience.
Dabookerman
Member
ACTUALLY! I think I know what's put me off anime, mainly.
The fans.
I mean, I used to go to London Expo (because my friend asked me to and for the odd bargain), and each time I went, I would be horrified by the creatures that also attended. The awful cosplayers. The Naruto Headband Wearing Wankers. The girls who looked like guys. The smell. The free huggers. All the shitty expensive Naruto, Haruhi and Final Fantasy merchandise EVERYWHERE.
These are the main customers. They keep the overseas business afloat.
The fans.
I mean, I used to go to London Expo (because my friend asked me to and for the odd bargain), and each time I went, I would be horrified by the creatures that also attended. The awful cosplayers. The Naruto Headband Wearing Wankers. The girls who looked like guys. The smell. The free huggers. All the shitty expensive Naruto, Haruhi and Final Fantasy merchandise EVERYWHERE.
These are the main customers. They keep the overseas business afloat.
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