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[Hitokage]

Have you ever watched a good cartoon with mediocre art and animation?

Try no animation!

Violinist of Hameln.

 

[Calcaneus]

So you're up for it? Okay, that's two.

 

[EviLore]

7th, you should show us your Nia figurine collection so the outsiders have a better perspective on what the OP described.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Future Boy Conan is a wonderful example, but it is far from being the only one.

Definitely not.

Some people automatically assume that just because something is old, means that it was done less skillfully, or is somehow less valuable.

It's good that you don't think this way. I often marvel at a lot of the skill put into the works of the 70's, 80's and early 90's because it was all essentially done by hand. That impresses me. To see the art and hard work right there on screen. That's why I initially got into anime in the first place. Because of the beautiful art and animation.

To me, the art and animation are the most important thing...but of course, not the only thing.

 

[jmdajr]

Definitely not.

Some people automatically assume that just because something is old, means that it was done less skillfully, or is somehow less valuable.

It's good that you don't think this way. I often marvel at a lot of the skill put into the works of the 70's, 80's and early 90's because it was all essentially done by hand. That impresses me. To see the art and hard work right there on screen. That's why I initially got into anime in the first place. Because of the beautiful art and animation.

To me, the art and animation are the most important thing...but of course, not the only thing.

As soon as anime starting going digital I could immediately see it as inferior. Some of the earlier ones like the Sol Bianca Tv series just looked terrible. Everything just looked flat and boring. So sterile. I'm not saying you can't do awesome work digitally, you can, but it was all done to take short cuts not make it better.

 

[flintstryker]

What pisses me off most though is that we have groups subbing these dime a dozen bullshit on a yearly basis, when awesome animes like Ashita No Joe made int he fucking 70s still haven't being fully subbed. SMFH.

 

[7Th]

Well, I agree. But you're trying to say that the animation in season 1, for example, is actually good? They're full of errors, bad timing, and screw ups. But that's a part of the charm. But you asked about cartoons with mediocre art or animation. I definitely think The Simpsons season 1 fits the bill in the animation department, art, however...

It being rough doesn't make it any less good. Good animation is expressive animation; expression is the final end of animation, everything else is just a medium. Case in point:

Try no animation!

Violinist of Hameln.

Isn't that a manga adaptation?

 

[7Th]

To me, the art and animation are the most important thing...but of course, not the only thing.

Of course. All I'm saying is that it is extremely uncommon for a cartoon with bad art and animation to be good; disregarding everything that features generic and uninteresting visuals is a safe way of saving your time and sanity.

 

[Hitokage]

Isn't that a manga adaptation?

Aren't most shows?

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

What pisses me off most though is that we have groups subbing these dime a dozen bullshit on a yearly basis, when awesome animes like Ashita No Joe made int he fucking 70s still haven't being fully subbed. SMFH.

There are dozens of shows that I wish receive the fansubbing treatment.

Like Dr. Slump, for crying out loud!

It's only one of the most popular anime in Japan ever. And done by the artist who created the most popular anime in the west ever!

What givvvvves?

 

[Regulus Tera]

7th, you should show us your Nia figurine collection so the outsiders have a better perspective on what the OP described.

He dumped it away and is currently working on expanding his Fang/Vanille collection.

 

[The Frankman]

is it any good? never liked Azumanga Dioh (or whatever it is) and i really want some manga that aren't Seinen stuff (currently got Pluto and 20th century boys, Urasawaa rocks)

Very heartwarming. Very spontaneous kid that nothing seems to break her stride. I've never seen the anime though butt love the manga.

 

[Branduil]

Oh boy this thread is going to turn into another treatise on 7th's views of what animation should be.

 

[Hitokage]

Of course. All I'm saying is that it is extremely uncommon for a cartoon with bad art and animation to be good; disregarding everything that features generic and uninteresting visuals is a safe way of saving your time and sanity.

Shut the fuck up, 7th. You don't know the first thing about sanity.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Of course. All I'm saying is that it is extremely uncommon for a cartoon with bad art and animation to be good; disregarding everything that features generic and uninteresting visuals is a safe way of saving your time and sanity.

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing. Only providing elaboration.

I agree that in a medium like anime, visuals are very important in drawing a viewer in. For instance, a show might have the most wonderful story ever written, but if the visuals are boring or generic, it might not get the audience it fully deserves.

 

[Extollere]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOPBRO1AvH8

IIRC, Strike Witches was an excuse to get popular underground artist Shimada Fumikane have a show designed entirely around his character ideas. I think that trailer obviously points this out. The show doesn't exist to tell a particular story, or present anything meaningful. It was just a ploy (as far as I can tell) to make money and see his popular characters in animation. It's pretty much a Moe show at it's purest, which centers around desire/infatuation for a particular look of character. In this case loli mecha-masume with nekomimi.

I think I got that right...

 

[7Th]

To me, good animation, technically, is all about smoothness. I find early Simpsons rough and crude animation-wise, while loving the art (such as the example you posted). To me, that just good art. Not good animation. To me, animation is the end result of timing, drawing thousands of images and putting them together to form a story. For it to be crude means the animation is average or below average.

So I'm not going to say the early Simpsons had good animation. It had excellent art (ie. drawings), however, and I'd like to emphasize the difference between these two terms. Animation is made up of pieces of art, it's very possible to have good art and poor animation.

Even then, the art isn't all that great in early Simpsons.

Look at the background behind Homer. It's completely sterile and looks like something a 5 year old did. That looks TERRIBLE.

No, what made early Simpsons stand out was the humor and plot and how the storylines weaved together from character to character, in this little town called Springfield. That animation was really quite bad.

We probably have different ideas on what defines good animation. To me, animation isn't about technical accuracy or smoothness, animation is about expression.

He dumped it away and is currently working on expanding his Fang/Vanille collection.

Lagann-hen's DVD release is just 14 days away, man!

Oh boy this thread is going to turn into another treatise on 7th's views of what animation should be.

Let's just say that you guys should all watch Wanwa and leave it at that, then.

 

[BGBW]

　　'´　　　ヽ
　ｌｶﾉﾉﾙ ﾋﾟﾉｽ
　从4 ^ヮ^ﾉｿ ＜I wish GAF found me ℳoé uguu~

I've been getting into JoJo's Bizarre Adventure recently. Reading slowly through Steel Ball Run now. 100% manly and fabulous, no sissy lolis here my friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckn8Th1utjU

I've been very slow on to the anime/manga train as it was (and probably still is) non exsistant on UK terrestrial television, except for Pokémon of course. So now I've basically got a huge backlog of series to watch, lucky me.

Catching up on some of the shows I may have seen an episode or two of at a friend's back in the day (he had cable) or seeing shows that I've seen name-dropped quite a bit over the years for curiosities sake.

So in conclusion, Don't be so tsundere for lolis.（ ≖‿-）～♡

 

[EviLore]

Huh, this was already on my webspace, convenient!

= why it's not advisable to mention anime in general real-world conversation except to the very carefully initiated.

 

[lunarworks]

As soon as anime starting going digital I could immediately see it as inferior.

FLCL was one of the first all-digital anime series. It's in no way inferior to the animation of decades before it. Of course, Gainax put all their manic energy and creativity into it, not like the derivative bullshit pumped out of factories now.

 

[Haly]

I am now interesting in Strike Witches!

We need moeblobs piloting giant robots, maybe that can be a compromise between the two sides.

 

[jmdajr]

FLCL was one of the first all-digital anime series. It's in no way inferior to the animation of decades before it. Of course, Gainax put all their manic energy and creativity into it, not like the derivative bullshit pumped out of factories now.

They were using digital way before that.... and I never said everything digital is garbage. But initially the use of digital was to take short cuts, not to improve it any way.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

FLCL was one of the first all-digital anime series. It's in no way inferior to the animation of decades before it. Of course, Gainax put all their manic energy and creativity into it, not like the derivative bullshit pumped out of factories now.

Exactly right.

Digital tools are terrific. Some of the most handy inventions for animation ever conceived.

However, like any other tool, they're only good if you use them correctly. Digital should not be an excuse to skimp on creativity or skillful labor.

Great things can be done using the digital process. And great things have been done. But generally, that just isn't the case.

 

[Branduil]

I think as far as theatrical releases go anime is as good as it's ever been. The past few years we've seen Ponyo, 5cm Per Second, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, Summer Wars, the Evangelion remakes, etc.

 

[lunarworks]

They were using digital way before that....

Yes, but in a limited capacity. FLCL was the first end-to-end full-scale digital production.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I am now interesting in Strike Witches!

We need moeblobs piloting giant robots, maybe that can be a compromise between the two sides.

Don't they already have that? I seem to recall a series that already did that.

At least one of the Frame pilots in Code Geass was a loli, as I recall :lol

 

[Haly]

I assume by digital you guys are referring to CG?

I don't like it when it's intrusive but it cuts costs for them and sometimes it's necessary, considering how bad everyone says the anime industry is doing.

Don't they already have that? I seem to recall a series that already did that.

At least one of the Frame pilots in Code Geass was a loli, as I recall

I wouldn't be surprised if they do but I have no knowledge of it!

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Don't they already have that? I seem to recall a series that already did that.

At least one of the Frame pilots in Code Geass was a loli, as I recall :lol

Yeh, it's been done. With moe, it's all been done.

I'll gladly take my anime 100% moe-free, whenever possible.

 

[The Frankman]

I am now interesting in Strike Witches!

We need moeblobs piloting giant robots, maybe that can be a compromise between the two sides.

No.

Giant moeblob robots.

 

[jmdajr]

Yes, but in a limited capacity. FLCL was the first end-to-end full-scale digital production.

Ok I see what you are saying. Yeah that show is cool...so is dead leaves, and gurren.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Huh, this was already on my webspace, convenient!

= why it's not advisable to mention anime in general real-world conversation except to the very carefully initiated.

7th is that you?

 

[lunarworks]

I assume by digital you guys are referring to CG?

No, the digital production we're talking about is where cels are all coloured using a computer, as opposed to hand-painting them. It's far more accurate, the colours are amazingly vibrant, and you can do interesting lighting and texture effects, but some people complain it makes them look too sterile.

 

[Chorazin]

The fights in Project A-Ko blew my 12 year old mind.

I still, to this day, remeber the night the Sci-Fi Channel during it's first few weeks on the air had Project A-Ko, Vampire Hunter D, and Akira on all the same night starting at midight.

I stayed up all night and had my young mind absolutely BLOWN.

 

[Haly]

No.

Giant moeblob robots.

Piloted by angsty teenagers and blonde guys in opera masks?

No, the digital production we're talking about is where cels are all coloured using a computer, as opposed to hand-painting them. It's far more accurate, the colours are amazingly vibrant, and you can do interesting lighting and texture effects, but some people complain it makes them look too sterile.

I never noticed, but if it's as prevalent as you guys say, then it's probably why I prefer modern series.

<3 Consistent Colors

 

[Extollere]

It's funny that nobody mentioned Gurren Lagann yet (even though it's been four pages and it's on that fucking pillow). That was basically the best show to come out in, what, the last 2 or 3 years? I mean that show really fucking rocked.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

It's funny that nobody mentioned Gurren Lagann yet (even though it's been four pages and it's on that fucking pillow). That was basically the best show to come out in, what, the last 2 or 3 years? I mean that show really fucking rocked.

It's been mentioned a couple times.

And yeah, it's probably the best anime from the later half of the 00's, and not many would dispute that.

 

[Branduil]

Gurren Lagann was good but GAF overrates it a bit.

 

[Hitokage]

It's been mentioned a couple times.

And yeah, it's probably the best anime from the later half of the 00's, and not many would dispute that.

Baccano tops it easily.

 

[lunarworks]

I never noticed, but if it's as prevalent as you guys say, then it's probably why I prefer modern series.

<3 Consistent Colors

It's used in pretty much everything, now. That's because it's way, way cheaper and faster than having every cel hand-painted. Composition and post-production are easier, too.

 

[Geneijin]

It's been mentioned a couple times.

And yeah, it's probably the best anime from the later half of the 00's, and not many (here) would dispute that.

Fixed.

It's a battlefield everywhere else. :lol

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

It's used in pretty much everything, now. That's because it's way, way cheaper and faster than having every cel hand-painted. Composition is easier, too.

And it looks that way, too.

 

[klausbert]

While we're at it, another thing i really hate is that almost every anime depicts high school life nowadays. Sometimes it's not a bad thing(Ranma), but most of the times it just pisses me of and it's the main reason why most new animes suck to me. I've seen that a billion times now, time to do something else Japan!

 

[The Frankman]

Piloted by angsty teenagers and blonde guys in opera masks?

Been done, piloted by rappers. Jay-Z, Game, Dre, Busta Rhymes, RZA/Wu Tang.

YOU HEARD ME JAPAN. I DARE YOU TO PULL THAT OFF AND NOT STEREOTYPE IT TO HELL. We talking new spin on East Coast vs. West Coast, nah'mean?

 

[EviLore]

And yeah, it's probably the best anime from the later half of the 00's, and not many would dispute that.

Disputing. Sucks after episode 15, full of moe and fanservice so requires you to be adjusted to that crap, 7th likes it, etc.

 

[Gilgamesh]

This is ironic, because Darker than Black 2 is a poster child for everything that this topic represents as a problem in the industry.

Utter nonsense. I hate moe as much as the next guy and I had no problem with DTB2. What was moe about it? That it had a little girl as the main character? They handled that extremely well, aside from a few aspects (such as the magical girl transformations, bath scene, and most of episode 9), but in this day and age it was practically an oasis in the middle of a big, stupid moeblob desert!

 

[Haly]

Disputing. Sucks after episode 15, full of moe and fanservice so requires you to be adjusted to that crap, 7th likes it, etc.

Surely the moe is balanced out by the manliness?

 

[cloudwalking]

Huh, this was already on my webspace, convenient!

= why it's not advisable to mention anime in general real-world conversation except to the very carefully initiated.

hahaha, that's in switzerland. looks like bern

 

[patrickthehedgehog]

Yeah, loli shit is creepy and not at all represented in my anime collection. It is depressing to pop in to the winter anime season thread and see so much stuff that looks identical, but still there are tons of great older shows that I haven't even seen yet. I just finished the Patlabor TV series last night and I love anime just as much as I ever have. It is true that there have been lots of great feature films coming out almost consistently. I've still got to show my friends Sword of the Stranger. There's no reason to give up on watching anime completely if you liked it at some point before.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Those pillows should be sold in black plastic or giant paper bags.

Anyone remember the timing of the Gurren Lagann crazy otaku meltdown shit? I can't remember if it was caused by the insane bathhouse fanservice episode or the direct cause of it.

 

[Haly]

Those pillows should be sold in black plastic or giant paper bags.

Anyone remember the timing of the Gurren Lagann crazy otaku meltdown shit? I can't remember if it was caused by the insane bathhouse fanservice episode or the direct cause of it.

I just remember the GAF thread.

Good times.