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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

Yoritomo

Member
You should hang out with the crow.
Kiss him full on the lips for me.
(he's sexually frustrated).



Oh Yorimoto I love you dude, no small part due to how you are just like I was a few years ago. Hito watched me go through that part of my journey, he can attest to it.

Like I said before I gave a talk essentially dressing down the church practice of giving talks on talks and then took it forward to talk about how an apostle was wrong. And people went wild for it. I can't think of another church that would allow such a thing.

That being said, while there are stories like that there are also stories about the intolerance (I mean shutting down a facebook page that called on women to wear pants? First off, it's sad that such a page even existed, but it's even sadder that some people were so pissed they lodged complaints about it.). I remember being called unto repentance for telling my favorite joke (A mormon walks into a marriott hotel and tells the clerk, "Your porn better be disabled!" and the clerk replied, "It's just regular pron you perv!"). Try having long hair when you're 15 or getting an ear pierced. The people in the church can either be very tolerant or not at all.

Sorry about being shitty in the gun thread. Remember how I like arguing? I'll just say I'm more genuine in this thread than any other thread on Gaf.

I have no doubt that I will eventually officially exit, but for now I've been mormon all my life and still the "chosen one" in my family. If I pop the bubble now I lose my voice and my ability to mitigate the damage pure orthodox strict Mormonism can have on my younger siblings. I risk parents and in-laws nearby asking if they can take my children to church. Right now I can be subtle and guiding, while teaching my children about religion without distancing myself from them as a primary teacher of basic morality and practice.
 
Sorry about being shitty in the gun thread. Remember how I like arguing? I'll just say I'm more genuine in this thread than any other thread on Gaf.

I have no doubt that I will eventually officially exit, but for now I've been mormon all my life and still the "chosen one" in my family. If I pop the bubble now I lose my voice and my ability to mitigate the damage pure orthodox strict Mormonism can have on my younger siblings. I risk parents and in-laws nearby asking if they can take my children to church. Right now I can be subtle and guiding, while teaching my children about religion without distancing myself from them as a primary teacher of basic morality and practice.

Question about the kids. Why do you think you would lose that position as principle guiding influence in their life if you didn't go to church?

I ask because its an issue my wife and I talk about a lot (we have 4 kids) neither of us are active but she still has regular dealings with members and her family. Fortunately distance from her family gives us some reprieve.
 

Yoritomo

Member
Question about the kids. Why do you think you would lose that position as principle guiding influence in their life if you didn't go to church?

I ask because its an issue my wife and I talk about a lot (we have 4 kids) neither of us are active but she still has regular dealings with members and her family. Fortunately distance from her family gives us some reprieve.

Lack of distance from family. In-laws are very nosy and pretty outspoken. My father in law specifically still talks about my brother in law (who is a great guy BTW) behind his back because they didn't get married in the temple but got sealed later, even though the guy (BiL) is now the Elder's Quorum president.

Every conversation I have with my father-in-law he tries to turn into a personal priesthood interview. I'd rather my kids didn't see a conflict when they are asked to do something their father does not do.

I would prevent this by being specifically antagonistic about the church because I would be pushed into standing my ground due to their behavior.
 

ronito

Member
You know, I always found it infuriating when people were like "Without the church I'd be in the gutter somewhere." I always thought to myself, "Do you really have such little trust in yourself?"

When I finally left, my mom had a very serious conversation with me about "How are your kids going to learn to be moral people? If you're not in the church?"

I know she meant well but inside I was like "They're good kids with or without the church. Just talking to them and teaching them will do more to help them grow up right more than where they spend their sundays."
 

CorvoSol

Member
Maxim-GAF?

HAWT AND RISQUE. This is the new Mormon image we need to start spreading, guys.

im really hoping to go through the land of milk and honey this break. Zion, Bryce, and an extended stay in SLC (like a bit more than a week). I'm really interested in the Mormons and am reading the book "The gathering of Zion"

i'm not religious at all but i've read all the books of the people of the book save Zoroastrians and Mormons. Now it's time to get to it!

btw someone give me lodging lol

If you're in SLC, definitely check out Temple Square. The decorations are supposed to be gorgeous this season. The downside is I'm lead to understand they don't keep the Sisters in the Square at this time, which is sad, because the Temple Square Sisters are easily the most attractive Sister Missionaries.

Hi, sorry if I'm not really contributing to any thread discussions or anything, but I'm a longtime GAF-lurker and BYU-Idaho student just checking in!

WAIT WHAT WHO ARE YOU WHY HAVEN'T WE RUN IN TO EACH OTHER DO YOU SPEND TIME IN THE RICKS OR ARE YOU MY ROOMMATE?

I'm leaving for Winter Break, but you and I should TOTALLY HANG OUT when I get back.

Unless you're that one guy from my Foreign Government class. Then . . . we probably shouldn't.

You should hang out with the crow.
Kiss him full on the lips for me.
(he's sexually frustrated).

Hey hey hey. We haven't even held hands yet! Don't you watch Korean dramas? THERE IS A SYSTEM. First hate, then it becomes clear we're just tsunderes, then an accident and a piggy back ride to the hospital, then hand holding, then a kiss.

THEN TWO YEARS LATER.
 
WAIT WHAT WHO ARE YOU WHY HAVEN'T WE RUN IN TO EACH OTHER DO YOU SPEND TIME IN THE RICKS OR ARE YOU MY ROOMMATE?

I'm leaving for Winter Break, but you and I should TOTALLY HANG OUT when I get back.

Bad news -- I'm Spring semester. And no, didn't have any classes in the Ricks for the specific reason that it was just killer going all the way up the hill to get to the building. I lived in Viking Village.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Bad news -- I'm Spring semester. And no, didn't have any classes in the Ricks for the specific reason that it was just killer going all the way up the hill to get to the building. I lived in Viking Village.

Spring/what though? Winter/Spring or Spring/Summer? This makes a difference, you know. If the former, hanging is still doable, if the latter, well, no dice.

Viking Village is right across from the Snow and Spori, right? Also the climb to the Ricks is the reason I'm moving from The Pines to Kensington.



HEY THIS REMINDS ME.

There's an underground network of tunnels beneath BYUI's campus. Anybody here know more about that? I'm dying to check it out, but expulsion is the alleged punishment for trespassing, so I don't know.

CAVES AND UNDERGROUND TUNNELS BENEATH THE ENTIRE HILL.

I should be sleeping, it's 4 AM, but I have like, an 18 hour bus ride home, so I'm trying to wear myself out between now and then. Also I need to finish packing. Can't wait to spend the holidays at home.
 
Lack of distance from family. In-laws are very nosy and pretty outspoken. My father in law specifically still talks about my brother in law (who is a great guy BTW) behind his back because they didn't get married in the temple but got sealed later, even though the guy (BiL) is now the Elder's Quorum president.

Every conversation I have with my father-in-law he tries to turn into a personal priesthood interview. I'd rather my kids didn't see a conflict when they are asked to do something their father does not do.

I would prevent this by being specifically antagonistic about the church because I would be pushed into standing my ground due to their behavior.

I may be speaking out of turn and I am more than likely projecting many of my own feelings on the situation, but your father in law sounds like an asshole. (I know mine is)

I can't remember if your wife was of the same opinion as you or not regarding her faith, at what point do you think you'll make a complete break? My kids have only been to church once in the last year, my mum was babysitting on a Sunday and since that is what Nana does they went along as well. I have yet to have a theological discussion with them about it but from what I can tell is that they have enjoyed the social aspect of it but found the scripture based teaching a little strange.
 

Thaedolus

Member
You know, I always found it infuriating when people were like "Without the church I'd be in the gutter somewhere." I always thought to myself, "Do you really have such little trust in yourself?"

When I finally left, my mom had a very serious conversation with me about "How are your kids going to learn to be moral people? If you're not in the church?"

I know she meant well but inside I was like "They're good kids with or without the church. Just talking to them and teaching them will do more to help them grow up right more than where they spend their sundays."

I feel the same way, and have had the same conversation. "It's different when you have kids..."

Why? Because I don't trust myself to teach them right from wrong? Because all the sudden the path I've taken in my life is the wrong one and I must repent? Fuck that. If I'm assured of what I'm doing in my life (which I am), then obviously I'd want my children to follow in my footsteps. If I truly believe the church is false, why would I want to perpetuate that falsehood in their lives? How about I raise my children my way? How about instead of making them feel insecure about everything they do wrong, I'm open and accepting of them as individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses, and allow them the freedom from the guilt I had for being a human being, while explaining how they can make their choices and accept the consequences?

We aren't even planning on having kids, but I'm pretty sure I can be a better atheist parent than my Mormon parents were to me. It's really not fair to say that because they love me and were always acting in what they thought was my best interest, but it would've been nice if I came first instead of some retarded organized religion.

Derp, went into rant mode.

I should be sleeping, it's 4 AM,

Careful with that. I had a roommate at USU who got reported to his bishop his first year at BYUI for looking at porn. He was really playing Counter-Strike and MMOs all night and the bishop didn't believe him. Got some sort of reprimand (not sure what, I never went to a church school).
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
So without going through the entire thread, did the heralded flowchart get posted? I've heard rumor of it for eons, but never have I gazed upon it's glory.
 
So without going through the entire thread, did the heralded flowchart get posted? I've heard rumor of it for eons, but never have I gazed upon it's glory.

Don't know if it was actually posted, but here it is.

eternal_progression_mormon_diagram.jpg
 

ronito

Member
Spring/what though? Winter/Spring or Spring/Summer? This makes a difference, you know. If the former, hanging is still doable, if the latter, well, no dice.

Viking Village is right across from the Snow and Spori, right? Also the climb to the Ricks is the reason I'm moving from The Pines to Kensington.



HEY THIS REMINDS ME.

There's an underground network of tunnels beneath BYUI's campus. Anybody here know more about that? I'm dying to check it out, but expulsion is the alleged punishment for trespassing, so I don't know.

CAVES AND UNDERGROUND TUNNELS BENEATH THE ENTIRE HILL.

I should be sleeping, it's 4 AM, but I have like, an 18 hour bus ride home, so I'm trying to wear myself out between now and then. Also I need to finish packing. Can't wait to spend the holidays at home.

There are underground tunnels at BYU.
I went in a few. I used to work at the Cosmo Connection or something like that by Helaman halls. And there were underground tunnels that you could get to in the basement. Sorta weird that they're in BYU-I. I always thought they were probably put in as a crazy conspiracy thing (in case the ruskies ever attacked) so it wouldn't surprise me about BYU-I having them. but I can tell you that at least in BYU they do exist. I've been in them. Though I wasn't able to go very far in them. I don't know how long they go for.

Also what are you doing up at 4am? Don't you know that Angel Hormoni comes out after 10:30?
 

Yoritomo

Member
I may be speaking out of turn and I am more than likely projecting many of my own feelings on the situation, but your father in law sounds like an asshole. (I know mine is)

I can't remember if your wife was of the same opinion as you or not regarding her faith, at what point do you think you'll make a complete break? My kids have only been to church once in the last year, my mum was babysitting on a Sunday and since that is what Nana does they went along as well. I have yet to have a theological discussion with them about it but from what I can tell is that they have enjoyed the social aspect of it but found the scripture based teaching a little strange.

We approach church in the exact same way. We're in sync with everything except our fundamental hypothesis of the existence of God. I work on the assumption that God doesn't exist but the fundamental idea that someone sees you and cares for you and loves you no matter how scared, alone, or sad you feel is one that is uplifting to the human heart. My wife works under the assumption that God exists but people are just nosy idiots and have corrupted any semblance of true religion.

She does it so she doesn't get stuck with the atheist fear of non-existence. I just acknowledge that god probably doesn't exist while assuming I'll see my family again after I die. It's contradictory and I am probably lying to myself, but keeping a loving pocket god is easier that contemplating non-existence. Rationally I am an atheist, spiritually and emotionally I feel peace that someone out there loves me. My wife is a woman and therefore irrational, so she doesn't have to deal with the atheist part.

My kids are sick, I was so hoping to wear my bright purple sweater tomorrow.
 
Spring/what though? Winter/Spring or Spring/Summer? This makes a difference, you know. If the former, hanging is still doable, if the latter, well, no dice.

Viking Village is right across from the Snow and Spori, right? Also the climb to the Ricks is the reason I'm moving from The Pines to Kensington.



HEY THIS REMINDS ME.

There's an underground network of tunnels beneath BYUI's campus. Anybody here know more about that? I'm dying to check it out, but expulsion is the alleged punishment for trespassing, so I don't know.

CAVES AND UNDERGROUND TUNNELS BENEATH THE ENTIRE HILL.

Sorry I should have clarified -- I'm Fall/Spring. So looks like you'll be minus one fellow gaffer this coming semester.

Also I heard about the network of tunnels too, but I don't know anyone who could get me down there anyway so looks like the mystery LIVES ON.
 

ronito

Member
Church in the NY times over this pants silliness:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/us/19mormon.html?ref=global-home&_r=1&

LAS VEGAS — A call for Mormon women to wear pants to church, begun this month by a small group of women, has stretched across the globe, but not before creating a backlash and even generating death threats.

“Wear Pants to Church,” an event on Sunday, was meant to draw attention to the role of women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, using attire as a symbolic first salvo in a larger struggle over gender inequalities.

Though the Mormon Church has no official policy against women wearing pants to church, many say they feel peer pressure to wear a dress, particularly in the Western United States, organizers said. So on Sunday, thousands of Mormon women arrived at church in pants in places like Cambridge, England; Heidelberg, Germany; Austin, Tex.; the Marshall Islands; and Kotzebue, Alaska. A number of the women posted their photos on Facebook and other Web sites. Others said they could not participate because they were fearful of ridicule or reprimand.

A Google map, begun so women could show they participated, included posts like this one, from Kari White, in Sheboygan, Wis.: “felt free to be an authentic me for the first time in my nearly 5 years of membership in the church.”

Joanna Brooks, a professor at San Diego State University and the author of “The Book of Mormon Girl: A Memoir of an American Faith,” called it “the largest concerted Mormon feminist effort in history.”

A church spokesman, Eric Hawkins, declined to comment on the event.


Organizers hope the dialogue will now expand to include issues like the ordination of women, or women taking on more responsibilities at church events.

They also cited the pronounced role of the Boy Scouts in the church — boys routinely become troop leaders in the organization, but girls have no similar outlet with the Girl Scouts — and the fact that young men are required to go on two-year missions to spread the faith, but young women are not. The result: the vast majority of Mormon missionaries are men.

“Wear Pants to Church” was the idea of Stephanie Lauritzen of Salt Lake City. She and some fellow Mormon women who belonged to a group called All Enlisted posted an events page on Facebook on Dec. 9. Within days, thousands had pledged their support, but one person threatened to shoot women who showed up in pants. Ms. Lauritzen, 26, also received threats on her own Facebook page that are being investigated by Facebook and the local authorities, she said.

On Dec. 11, the Salt Lake City-based church leadership issued a statement: “Generally church members are encouraged to wear their best clothing as a sign of respect for the Savior, but we don’t counsel people beyond that.”

The All Enlisted “friends” page has drawn hundreds of posts, both for and against the idea. JoEllen Swarts of Las Vegas wrote: “What is wrong with all you women??? If you’re not happy with the LDS church, move on, find another place of worship. You will not change Mormon Doctrine.”

At a suburban church in Green Valley, Nev., less than 10 miles from the Las Vegas Strip, women filed into church on Sunday morning, most wearing dresses (most men wore coats and ties). Bishop Michael Durham was somewhat dismissive of the pants idea. “I think wearing pants is not liberating,” he said. “Liberation comes from inside. I’m not sure they have a clear understanding of the church’s position on gender.”

Soraya Cordeiro said she wore pants because she had to take a long bus ride to her job at the Venetian hotel after church and found wearing a dress to be “a hassle.” She said she had never faced rebuke for her choice of attire.

On Monday, a private All Enlisted Facebook page had collected about the same number of “negative experiences” as “positive experiences” from women across the country. Julie Tuovi Baker Hansen, a lawyer in Burbank, Calif., who participated while visiting a Salt Lake City suburb, said she was surprised to see a man raise his hand and say, “Women who want to wear pants, they just don’t know how to follow the Lord.”

Ms. Hansen, the only woman wearing pants in a room of about 50 people, said she felt “pretty irritated.”

Aimee Hickman, the editor of a Mormon feminist magazine called Exponent II, said she originally had reservations about the event. But then she saw the negative reaction by church members online. “This made me rethink my original position,” Ms. Hickman said. The attention drawn to the effort, she added, “has people talking about Mormon gender roles more than anything I’ve seen.”
The largest undertaking in mormon feminist history. LOL.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
"Give me pants or give me...uh, hmmm, well, give me no recommend!"

"You can wear pants. Nobody says you can't."

"BUT I FEEL PRESSURED!"

"Ok."

"Ok."
 

Yoritomo

Member
It's not about the pants really.

“I feel unequal when there are more (a lot more) men’s voices in religious texts, meetings, leadership positions, and decision-making bodies.”

“I feel unequal when callings that don’t necessitate the priesthood are given only to men: Sunday School Presidency, Brigham Young University Presidents, Church Education Commissioners, Ward Mission Leaders, recommend takers at the Temple, etc. (Similarly, men are not currently called in Primary Presidencies and could be.)”

“I feel unequal when women doing the same job are called by different titles (i.e. Sister vs. President) and/or are accessories to rather than serving equally with their husbands, i.e. Mission President’s wives.”

“I feel unequal when my value is primarily linked to being a wife and mother rather than by being a child of God.”

“I feel unequal when the men in my life acknowledge that they have no female spiritual leaders in their wards or communities.”

“I feel unequal when women have less prominent, prestigious, and public roles in the Church, even before and after child-rearing years.”

“I feel unequal when males handle 100% of the Church finances.”

“I feel unequal when I am taught at church that my husband presides in my family, he is the head, and all things being equal, he has the final say.”

“I feel unequal when people preach that men and women are completely equal and in the same breath say the above sentence.”

It's more about outreach and recognizing others that have the same frustrations that you do.

Here's a fun but unrelated article about women and standards in the church.

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Ad...tandard-Teaching-Sexuality-to-the-Young-Women
 

ronito

Member
It's not about the pants really.



It's more about outreach and recognizing others that have the same frustrations that you do.

Here's a fun but unrelated article about women and standards in the church.

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Ad...tandard-Teaching-Sexuality-to-the-Young-Women

Yeah, but they've made it around pants. It's a silly protest. I know they have to do something, and I appreciate how difficult it can be to try and change anything within the church. But they picked something that's easily ridiculed
 

Yoritomo

Member
Yeah, but they've made it around pants. It's a silly protest. I know they have to do something, and I appreciate how difficult it can be to try and change anything within the church. But they picked something that's easily ridiculed

They're probably used to a little benevolent ridicule by now.
 

ronito

Member
So new year guys.

How's everyone dealing with new schedules?
I keep hearing about the new teaching methodology. Is it good or bad?
Most active mormons I meet tell me it's good but also admit that it could easily go very bad.
 

CorvoSol

Member
There are underground tunnels at BYU.
I went in a few. I used to work at the Cosmo Connection or something like that by Helaman halls. And there were underground tunnels that you could get to in the basement. Sorta weird that they're in BYU-I. I always thought they were probably put in as a crazy conspiracy thing (in case the ruskies ever attacked) so it wouldn't surprise me about BYU-I having them. but I can tell you that at least in BYU they do exist. I've been in them. Though I wasn't able to go very far in them. I don't know how long they go for.

Also what are you doing up at 4am? Don't you know that Angel Hormoni comes out after 10:30?

I need to get down into those tunnels, but pain of expulsion is kind of a high price. But I mean, forbidding something and then shrouding it to THAT level just invites curiosity. This must be what it feels like to the people who get all up in arms about the Temple.

Sorry I should have clarified -- I'm Fall/Spring. So looks like you'll be minus one fellow gaffer this coming semester.

Also I heard about the network of tunnels too, but I don't know anyone who could get me down there anyway so looks like the mystery LIVES ON.

Peaceiscloser, next Fall you and I are going into those tunnels. Suicide pact man, come on.

"Give me pants or give me...uh, hmmm, well, give me no recommend!"

"You can wear pants. Nobody says you can't."

"BUT I FEEL PRESSURED!"

"Ok."

"Ok."

Maybe it's just because I grew up in Washington, or maybe because my mother is a convert and pretty liberal, but I never really saw the whole dress code as a huge deal. Like, on my mission, no matter how cheesy this sounds, I always told people it didn't matter what they wore to Church, but that they went. Because in Brazil, a lot of denominations throw people out for not having good clothing, and I dunno, I thought it was odd.

On the other hand, the problem I have with pants is mostly that I DO think that there ought to be some decorum at Church. And while I understand that fashions change with the times, I dunno, I just think that if you have the capability of dressing the part, you ought to. But I mean, I'm not gonna fuss over it. Either way, they'll still have to wear dresses in the Temple.


So for the new year I have the same schedule, new ward. Some really cute girls in the ward/my FHE group, so I need to lose some weight and grow some stones and get out there with them. Pres. Uchtdorf's remarks for the CES fireside were really nice last night, I felt. I don't know how you'll all feel about it, but I loved his comments about not falling into doubt after finding something new about the Church out that doesn't mesh with your concept of how the Church should be.

No real interesting girls in my classes, though, which is kinda lame. But we'll see.
 

ronito

Member
Pres. Uchtdorf's remarks for the CES fireside were really nice last night, I felt. I don't know how you'll all feel about it, but I loved his comments about not falling into doubt after finding something new about the Church out that doesn't mesh with your concept of how the Church should be.

No real interesting girls in my classes, though, which is kinda lame. But we'll see.

So what did he say to do instead of doubting? "Don't stop believin'"?
 

bluemax

Banned

CorvoSol

Member
So what did he say to do instead of doubting? "Don't stop believin'"?

You expect me to remember something said in Church the day after? Hahaha. I mean, essentially, yes, it was "Don't stop believin'" but it was accompanied by an example of blind men describing an elephant as an illustration of the fact that when we only have an understanding of parts we cannot understand the whole, as in, the whole of God's plan, but I dunno, I liked it. Sometimes things said in talks are meant for some swath of the audience, I feel, and not the whole.

I'm kinda hoping I don't get saddled with FHE dad this semester. Not that I don't have the extra time to devote to it now, but I just don't think I'm good at coming up with good activities for other people to enjoy. Last semester building ginger bread houses was like, my crowning moment, and it darn near bankrupted me. This semester I don't know WHAT I'd do.

Oh! I don't know if I mentioned or not, probably not because I'm a slacker, but I got to go with my sister over the break when she got her endowments. It was really awesome. I teased her like, non-stop during the lead-up that her brain would get all melted because that's what happened to me, but since she's older than I was, she was all aces through it and got by just fine.

As to the role of women in the Church and attracting them, on my Mission I will comment that I had mixed results with women. On the one hand, I did have one woman who both she and I struggled the whole way because I saw her point about not seeing why women couldn't administrate in the Priesthood, and helping her beyond that point was a feat for both her and me and my companion. On the other hand, I met a lot of women who saw the Church as a refuge from the climate around them.

This is sort of hard to explain, other than that there were a lot of women I met with sucky husbands who would've killed to be the June Cleaver if it'd meant their husbands had been more than worthless bums.
 
So what did he say to do instead of doubting? "Don't stop believin'"?

Finding a piece of the puzzle that doesn't fit with what we have put together so far doesn't mean we put previous pieces together incorrectly - just that we don't have a complete picture yet.
 

ronito

Member
I'm honestly surprised the Church is able to attract women in all honesty. Its such a 1950s gender structure. I almost expect it to change at some point.

To be fair it's not just the gender structure that's stuck in the 1950s and it the church seems to be doing fine with that.
 

CorvoSol

Member
You know, I know I shouldn't say this in the second week of the semester, but one of my roommates rubs me the wrong way. He's not a jerk, but like, he does these small things that agitate me. Like when he wants me to watch three straight videos on youtube and he keeps looking at me to make sure I'm watching.

I dunno, maybe because he's 18 and I'm going crazy being surrounded by children.

I'm a horrible Judgypants, but MAN, sometimes, somethings just really irk.

The problem with six roommates is its like a grab bag. Some of them rock and others you're just like, eeeeeh, I dunno.
 
Interesting article from Rock Waterman about City Creek. As a warning, his articles are always long and he tends to ramble a lot. But he always has something interesting to say, whether or not you agree with it.

In case you're not familiar with Rock, he's a believing Mormon who's strongly critical of the modern day church and church leaders. He believes in the Restoration and the Book of Mormon, but seems to be heavily leaning towards the idea that the modern day church is in some form of apostasy.

Anyway, some interesting quotes from this article.

Yet Salt Lake City now boasts just such a high-end retail establishment, taking up 80 square acres opposite Temple Square. Were you to read the roster of tenants, you might mistake it for a list of boutiques lining Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. And predictably, two months shy of a year after opening, the owners of these stores are still asking the question they asked the first week of operation: "Where are the customers?"

There is plenty of foot traffic, to be sure. By all reports, this mall is a must see, with indoor waterfalls, dancing waters, a trout-filled creek running thorugh the center, and a gigantic retractable glass ceiling to keep out the snow and rain. And of course there are those dozens of hoity-toity high-priced retail stores, many of which the residents of the state have never been in before, or even heard of. So everyone living up and down the Wasatch Front of course has to go and have a look.

But what people are not doing at this mall is spending sufficient money to keep most of these stores in business for the long term. I live in Sacramento, California, so I haven't been there myself, but I have spoken to many people who have. And executives who lease office space at City Creek Center have told me in confidence that things are going about as well for the merchants at City Creek as they are at the malls in my own city.

I'm curious who these "executives" are, and how Rock would have had the chance to discuss this with them.

When they see the billboards featuring glamorous women holding glasses of champagne and wearing dresses that by any measure are clearly inimical to LDS standards, it seems to some as though the Church is not only getting into bed with Babylon, but actively promoting a lifestyle they have been taught all their lives to avoid.

Brothers and sisters, stand down. You do not have to defend this. City Creek is not our religion. It has nothing to do with "Mormonism" by any definition. The City Creek shopping center has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Church of God will neither rise nor fall with the fortunes of City Creek Center. If you are defending, excusing, and rationalizing this project on the basis of a belief that City Creek must be inspired or the Church cannot be true, I urge you to rethink your assumptions.

Men at the forefront of the Church have made boneheaded decisions in the past, and they will probably make boneheaded decisions in the future, yet the gospel message will advance and the Kingdom of God will still roll forth. Neither the Kingdom nor the gospel are dependent on the 'truthfulness' of any church for their existence; not even this one. They stand independent of any earthly institution. Your testimony should not be dependent upon trusting in the arm of flesh, so knock it off already.

I've definitely seen a lot of TBM's defending City Creek with the base assumption that because the church backed it, it's automatically correct and to even question the wisdom of it is a sign of apostasy. But as far as I can tell, it goes against everything that Mormon doctrine espouses. The idea that the church is ALWAYS correct and that it will never fall away is false even according to Mormon doctrine, so sweeping something like this under the rug without question, saying that it's obviously God's will is troubling.

In regards to the LDS church never falling away, or the leader of the church never leading it astray, I read 3 Nephi 16:10 saying the exact opposite of that.

3 Nephi 16: 10

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Disclaimer: I'm not a believing member currently, but even by Mormon doctrine both City Creek and the member's defending it just don't make any sense to me.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
City Creek has nothing to do with anything when it comes to the church or doctrine. The church wanted to have a lively and healthy downtown, so they put their financial backing behind that.

And who is claiming that it's empty? Any time I've gone out there it's been pretty dang busy, including when I was there for lunch last week. But I don't know exact numbers. It just never looks empty when I'm there.
 
City Creek has nothing to do with anything when it comes to the church or doctrine. The church wanted to have a lively and healthy downtown, so they put their financial backing behind that.

I'm not sure how you can say it has "nothing to do with the church". The church put up the money to build the thing -- however many billions of dollars it cost. And many members feel like that's contrary to the doctrines of the church. Worldy things over the poor, and all of that. This argument has been going on and on for the past few years, and I don't necessarily want to rehash it, but I'm not sure how anyone can say it has "nothing to do with the church". It has a whole lot to do with the church, and the fact is that it disturbs a lot of believing members, and the church isn't doing anything (as far as I know) to help alleviate their concerns.

And who is claiming that it's empty? Any time I've gone out there it's been pretty dang busy, including when I was there for lunch last week. But I don't know exact numbers. It just never looks empty when I'm there.

Rock didn't claim that it was empty. In the article he says there's plenty of people there. The problem, according to him, (and this makes sense to me) is that nobody is really buying anything. The typical person visiting City Creek can't afford the stuff they are selling in those stores.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Money dumped into City Creek Center: Over $5 billion
Money spent in humanitarian aid over 25 years: Under $900 million
 

ronito

Member
It's no secret that I think the church should have not done the City Creek Mall and that I find it reprehensible for any church to have any stake in any mall and that it undermines their whole message, especially for a church like the LDS church with its strict tithing policy, "be in the world not of the world" message and their "by their fruits ye shall know them" focus. I hear the whole "the church has nothing to do with it." argument but you can bet that the church gave their approval to it. It's an easily avoidable morality problem.

That being said, I gotta say I don't care much for Rock Waterman. He smacks too much of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Sometimes it feels like he's a member only to be able to criticize the church with impunity. Of course I say that now that I've exited the church. And no doubt that I was very critical of the church even when I was in it. But I didn't go out and write articles about it and such.
 
They're just investing in Zion. Utah is the Mormon's bastion so it makes sense they would invest heavily in it's capital. Of course, we're supposed to be living in the latter days, so it could be seen as hypocritical or likened to polishing brass on the Titanic. To an extent, that kind of sums up my feelings on the modern Mormon church as well.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
No, I mean that it has nothing to do with the validity of church doctrine. Everybody knows that there's a business arm of the church. Whatever. They do stuff. I don't really care what they're doing as long as it's not immoral. It helps that City Creek is amazing though, and it's a really big gift to the city.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Just had myself an AWESOME week here in Rexburg that requires a bit of back story. This time last year I kinda lost it at this guy in a class and stuff, as in I lost my temper and flipped out on him in class. It was embarrassing immediately after and I apologized profusely. This guy was completely chill about it, which only made it more embarrassing.

Then, because I didn't have a kitchen at the time, when we ran into each other when Elder Perry was in town that semester, he invited me to his home, where I had dinner with him and his wife. It was super nice of him and I only felt sillier.

Fast forward a year to like, last Monday. I lost my wallet down in the Smith building, and was super panic moding, when I went back to the lab where I'd lost it, they told me someone had turned it in and e-mailed the owner its location. So I checked my e-mail and followed the directions to my wallet. Thursday I was out eating lunch when I bumped into this guy again and put two and two together and realized he'd returned my wallet.

Maybe it doesn't mean much to anybody else, but it's pretty awesome to have my wallet returned the same day I lost it, and by a guy who had every reason to hate me.

A lesser note in this story of my week is that Tuesday it was snowing like the devil and I came out of the grocery store with all my groceries for the month and my bags just ripped and I stood there, not sure what to do when this guy stops by and is like "D'you need a lift?" And I'm all "HECK YES I DO."

So I'm sure stuff like this happens outside of Mormonville and with people who aren't Mormons, but it was still an amazing week to be a charity case, haha.

Also, I'm taking New Testament this semester, and I'm taking it IN A CLASSROOM and that rocks because I hated taking Book of Mormon online last semester, because discussing the Gospel on iLearn isn't the same as discussing it in a room full of other people for me.

Semester is off to a good start, but man, we went over to a roommate's girlfriend's apartment yesterday and stuff got WEIRD. Like, roommate and his girlfriend were heading down to see Temple Square today, but we were all having dinner first, but stuff got awkward when roommate and girlfriend were leaving and we were like "Oh we should go too" but girls are like "Nooooo staaaaaay" so we stay because hey, if a girl invites you to stay and all, except, as soon as we decided to stay and watch a movie, all of the girls bailed into another room and remained there for the rest of the movie, except the girl who'd passed out.

It was just . . . lame.

WOOOOOOOOO REXBURG.
 
No, I mean that it has nothing to do with the validity of church doctrine. Everybody knows that there's a business arm of the church. Whatever. They do stuff. I don't really care what they're doing as long as it's not immoral. It helps that City Creek is amazing though, and it's a really big gift to the city.

I get where you're coming from. The problem in my mind is that church doctrine contains the idea that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's one true church on earth, led by prophets, seers, and revelators. The business side of such a church would still be intrinsically connected to that, and can't simply do anything it pleases without the consent of the church itself. For me, it DOES feel immoral that the church spent so much on a mall (a huge worldly undertaking) in comparison to what it's spent on humanitarian aid throughout its history, while simultaneously telling its members that they should pay their tithing even if they don't have money to feed their family.

Anyway, that's just where I'm coming from, and I'm fine with members of the church that aren't bothered by it, like you. The ones that bother me are those that fling accusations of apostasy at other believing members who are troubled by the mall in one way or another. The idea that the church will never go astray is false doctrine as far as I can tell, so the members need to be willing to hold the church accountable to its actions. Or at least be accepting of those that are requesting that the church be accountable. Being troubled by their church doing something that goes against so much of what that same church taught them to avoid is perfectly valid.

Not accusing anybody here of that. I've just been in a lot of conversations about the whole City Creek mess for the last couple of years, and I hear these accusations (i.e., "just trust the leaders of the church; doubt leads to apostasy; etc" all too often.
 

ronito

Member
Just had myself an AWESOME week here in Rexburg that requires a bit of back story. This time last year I kinda lost it at this guy in a class and stuff, as in I lost my temper and flipped out on him in class. It was embarrassing immediately after and I apologized profusely. This guy was completely chill about it, which only made it more embarrassing.

Then, because I didn't have a kitchen at the time, when we ran into each other when Elder Perry was in town that semester, he invited me to his home, where I had dinner with him and his wife. It was super nice of him and I only felt sillier.

Fast forward a year to like, last Monday. I lost my wallet down in the Smith building, and was super panic moding, when I went back to the lab where I'd lost it, they told me someone had turned it in and e-mailed the owner its location. So I checked my e-mail and followed the directions to my wallet. Thursday I was out eating lunch when I bumped into this guy again and put two and two together and realized he'd returned my wallet.

Maybe it doesn't mean much to anybody else, but it's pretty awesome to have my wallet returned the same day I lost it, and by a guy who had every reason to hate me.
I'll never forget a talk that a stake president once gave. He said that he had met someone that wasn't a mormon in his business meetings and this non-mormon had said that "Mormons can either be the most trustworthy people you'll ever meet or the least trustworthy. There is no middle ground. Chose today which one you'll be."

I totally agree with that and it's been true in my dealings. When someone at work asks me that they just met a mormon and should they be trusted I repeat what my SP said, "They'll either be the most trustworthy person you know, or the least."
A lesser note in this story of my week is that Tuesday it was snowing like the devil and I came out of the grocery store with all my groceries for the month and my bags just ripped and I stood there, not sure what to do when this guy stops by and is like "D'you need a lift?" And I'm all "HECK YES I DO."

So I'm sure stuff like this happens outside of Mormonville and with people who aren't Mormons, but it was still an amazing week to be a charity case, haha.
A while ago in Utah there was an old lady at the BYU creamery parking lot and she was asking if anyone had jumper cables. No one was helping her. I went in bought a pair of jumper cables, jumped her car and helped her jump her car and gave her the cables to keep "just in case". She was really greatful and said my ward was lucky to have me. I told her I hadn't been mormon in years.

Poor lady looked stricken. I told her that if I didn't believe that some angel would come and help her, no one would and so it was up to me. I don't think that helped ease her mind at all sadly.
Also, I'm taking New Testament this semester, and I'm taking it IN A CLASSROOM and that rocks because I hated taking Book of Mormon online last semester, because discussing the Gospel on iLearn isn't the same as discussing it in a room full of other people for me.
I minored in Religion and generally I found the Book of Mormon/DC classes to be TERRIBLE. But the New Testament and ESPECIALLY the Old Testament classes were totally awesome.

Semester is off to a good start, but man, we went over to a roommate's girlfriend's apartment yesterday and stuff got WEIRD. Like, roommate and his girlfriend were heading down to see Temple Square today, but we were all having dinner first, but stuff got awkward when roommate and girlfriend were leaving and we were like "Oh we should go too" but girls are like "Nooooo staaaaaay" so we stay because hey, if a girl invites you to stay and all, except, as soon as we decided to stay and watch a movie, all of the girls bailed into another room and remained there for the rest of the movie, except the girl who'd passed out

It was just . . . lame.

WOOOOOOOOO REXBURG.
So wait, they just left you with passed out girl? What happened? I'm unclear.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I minored in Religion and generally I found the Book of Mormon/DC classes to be TERRIBLE. But the New Testament and ESPECIALLY the Old Testament classes were totally awesome.

Why would anyone ever want to minor in religion? Bleeeeh. But Book of Mormon is actually my favorite. I love Book of Mormon, possibly because I've never grown out of the love of Captain Moroni's battles, but like, 3rd Nephi 11 is legitimately one of my favorite passages.

I used to be a HUGE fan of Old Testament for the same reason. I mean, Moses was HARDCORE when I was a kid. But like, on my mission I just really came to like the New Testament. The Roman Empire is my favorite chapter in history, so it's only natural I'd love the section of scripture that intersected with that.


So wait, they just left you with passed out girl? What happened? I'm unclear.

Let's call my roommate Elvis. Elvis' girlfriend "Carrie" invites our apartment to dinner at her apartment with her roommates. Elvis and Carrie are going down to Temple Square for the day after dinner. So we have dinner with Carrie's roommates and it's all nice, but then Elvis and Carrie have to split.

Not really knowing Carrie's roommates and not having hit it off with any of them well enough (literally only one of them spoke to us for any length of time) we took this as our cue to bow out as well. The girls get all sad that we're bailing and invite us to stay and watch a movie. So we stay, and the movie begins. One girl passes out on the couch, and the other girls all bail. We literally contemplated just leaving while they were all out of the room.

It was weird. They'd been gone for like, half an hour at that point. We didn't want to be rude but I mean, I dunno, it was just kinda odd.
 

ronito

Member
Let's call my roommate Elvis. Elvis' girlfriend "Carrie" invites our apartment to dinner at her apartment with her roommates. Elvis and Carrie are going down to Temple Square for the day after dinner. So we have dinner with Carrie's roommates and it's all nice, but then Elvis and Carrie have to split.

Not really knowing Carrie's roommates and not having hit it off with any of them well enough (literally only one of them spoke to us for any length of time) we took this as our cue to bow out as well. The girls get all sad that we're bailing and invite us to stay and watch a movie. So we stay, and the movie begins. One girl passes out on the couch, and the other girls all bail. We literally contemplated just leaving while they were all out of the room.

It was weird. They'd been gone for like, half an hour at that point. We didn't want to be rude but I mean, I dunno, it was just kinda odd.

Oh, nah dude this happened to me ALL the time at BYU. It's not even uncommon.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Oh, nah dude this happened to me ALL the time at BYU. It's not even uncommon.


. . . but why? Why would girls ask us to stay if they weren't planning on socializing after that? Why would you invite people to just stay in your apartment like that when you barely knew them? It was this unwieldy combination of awkward and lame.
 
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