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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

From the AMA:
It will be front page MT. It will also be on TV and national newspaper. And on as many boards as we can get to.
Don't worry, you'll hear.


Whatever it is, he's pretty confident it will be big. The only thing I can think of is perhaps it involves the use of tithing funds. Wasn't he a big financial guy for the church in the UK? Seems like that might be something he'd have inside info on, but who knows.

I believe the church is under a bit of scrutiny in the UK at the moment regarding Tax issues and it's recxomendations to church leaders to not declare reimbursements (this being against tax laws there)

I believe this isn't tied to whatever he is supposedly working on. I think something is coming out, the magnitude of its impact and wow factor is what I question.
 

ronito

Member
I believe the church is under a bit of scrutiny in the UK at the moment regarding Tax issues and it's recxomendations to church leaders to not declare reimbursements (this being against tax laws there)

I believe this isn't tied to whatever he is supposedly working on. I think something is coming out, the magnitude of its impact and wow factor is what I question.

I thought that ended with the ruling that the church has to pay taxes on temples and their land values? Good ruling to read actually. they ruled that church facilitites should serve the public good and therefore be opened to the public. They noted that mormon temples aren't even opened to all mormons. Personally I think it's good public policy (actually, I think churches should be taxable, just at a lower rate). So are you saying there's more than that?
 

Fathead

Member
I don't think he's got anything. Given the fact that it's not in his control I bet it's someone either was pulling his leg and couldn't deliver because there really wasn't something. Or it's just someone from the higher ups leaving the church.

There is no reason for him to keep his mouth shut. None. He probably thought he had something and found out that there is zero evidence to support it. Which would then open him up to lawsuits.
 

ronito

Member
So I usually wouldn't want to expose anyone to the horror that is reddit's exmormon subreddit. But you guys should really check it out for trainwreck schadenfreude.

To sum up:
- Tom Philips does that AMA I posted
- Mod from the faithful LDS subreddit essentially says that people that leave the church have some sort of neurological disorder and tells Tom he needs to see a neurologist because he's obviously crazy.
- Tons of exmormons jump on said Mod saying that they don't go into the latter day saint reddit and shit it up saying "Mormons have mental disease!"
- Mod ends up deleting her posts and tries to hide it.
- Exmormon reddit explodes with indignation.
- Mod goes back to the exmormon sub-reddit and posts a non-apology saying "I'm sorry I offended anyone in saying that exmormons are crazy but here's why some are crazy."
- More exmormons jump on the mod pointing out her hypocrisy.
- Mod deletes her thread and comments.

Seriously it's like gaming side level of meltdowns.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
There is no reason for him to keep his mouth shut. None. He probably thought he had something and found out that there is zero evidence to support it. Which would then open him up to lawsuits.

I think Ronnie might be on to something when he said there may be another party involved holding it up. Tom said he finished his work mid-October. Or you may be right and he's full of shit. I just think that he would be hard pressed to make shit up without getting called out by the ExMo community, and he knows this.

So I usually wouldn't want to expose anyone to the horror that is reddit's exmormon subreddit. But you guys should really check it out for trainwreck schadenfreude.

To sum up:
- Tom Philips does that AMA I posted
- Mod from the faithful LDS subreddit essentially says that people that leave the church have some sort of neurological disorder and tells Tom he needs to see a neurologist because he's obviously crazy.
- Tons of exmormons jump on said Mod saying that they don't go into the latter day saint reddit and shit it up saying "Mormons have mental disease!"
- Mod ends up deleting her posts and tries to hide it.
- Exmormon reddit explodes with indignation.
- Mod goes back to the exmormon sub-reddit and posts a non-apology saying "I'm sorry I offended anyone in saying that exmormons are crazy but here's why some are crazy."
- More exmormons jump on the mod pointing out her hypocrisy.
- Mod deletes her thread and comments.

Seriously it's like gaming side level of meltdowns.

It's pretty clear that the LDS mod was being an ass, though. I think the right thing to do in this scenario is to not feed the trolls, but I also understand the overreaction. It made me think of when my parents essentially said I left the church so I could start drinking and fornicating. I'm sure other ExMos had similar experiences and felt the need to circle the wagons when one of their own was being targeted/discredited in such a manner, regardless of how patently absurd the claims were.
 
I think Ronnie might be on to something when he said there may be another party involved holding it up. Tom said he finished his work mid-October. Or you may be right and he's full of shit. I just think that he would be hard pressed to make shit up without getting called out by the ExMo community, and he knows this.



It's pretty clear that the LDS mod was being an ass, though. I think the right thing to do in this scenario is to not feed the trolls, but I also understand the overreaction. It made me think of when my parents essentially said I left the church so I could start drinking and fornicating. I'm sure other ExMos had similar experiences and felt the need to circle the wagons when one of their own was being targeted/discredited in such a manner, regardless of how patently absurd the claims were.

Yeah, my wife got told by her sister this week that she must no believe cause she doesn't understand the doctrine. So she is happy to help or maybe the missionaries could come teach her.................... I'm an RM, my wife was active for 26 years............ I guess its just too hard for some people to admit that someone else chooses not to believe.
 

ronito

Member
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/mormon-church-gay-marriage-lobbying
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (more commonly known as the Mormon church) recently reneged on its commitment to stay out of the gay marriage fight.

For those who need a reminder, the LDS church was the major force – financial and otherwise – behind California's Proposition 8 that passed five years ago to deny marriage equality to gay and lesbian couples. While the supreme court overturned Prop 8 this year, the issue is still very much alive in many states.

The image conscious Mormon church received such a pounding from all it did during the Prop 8 campaign that they decided they better play nice and quit all their gay-bashing. The church's own pollster Gary C Lawrence told the Washington Post that after Prop 8, the Mormon church lost 5% of its public support and was tied with Muslims as the least popular of major religions in America.

While the church's image suffered badly, the other reason the Mormon church was sitting out last year's gay marriage debates was so that it would not jeopardize in any way shape or form what was deemed the "Mormon moment". That was their long-held desire to elect the first Mormon US president, former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney. That plan went up in smoke after he lost badly to President Obama a year ago.

Now that Romney is not a factor anymore, the Mormon church is back fighting same-sex marriage. We discovered two letters that were read to all Mormon church members in Hawaii as the state was considering whether to legalize same sex marriage. The letters signed by high-ranking Mormon leaders asked church members to give of their "time and means" in order to defeat a bill. Fortunately, Hawaii didn't listen to the Mormon church. It passed the bill earlier this month, becoming the 15th US state to allow gay marriage.

People are, of course, allowed to have their own views on same sex marriage or any other issue. But it gets complicated when an official religious organization meddles and lobbies so prominently in politics. I sent a letter to the Hawaii Ethics Commission asking them to investigate whether there were Mormon church employees who had worked over five hours in a month to defeat the bill, or if the church had spent more than $750 on lobbying expenses. If the church met either threshold, they would be required to register more of their employees as lobbyists. We are awaiting the results of that investigation.

The Mormon church even pulled out its top law professor, Lynn Wardle, from church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. They flew him to Hawaii to testify against the gay marriage bill. Professor Wardle has long been the church's leading legal mouthpiece in fighting gay marriage across the country.

The recently released official Mormon church documents published by Mother Jones, show that church has been acting more like Exxon-Mobil or AT&T than a religion. They have had up to 23 lobbyists in 23 states all over the country working to pass laws and constitutional amendments banning gay marriage and opposing each and every marriage equality bill.

It is astounding that the Mormon church appears to use tax deductible donations given to the church to lobby and run political issue campaigns. Official LDS church documents show the measures the LDS church took to keep its involvement secret and obscure the source of its funds.

Perhaps it's time that the US Department of Justice and the IRS take a closer look at the Mormon church's political activities to determine if its tax-exempt status allows for this. If the Mormon church wants to act like a corporation and not a religion, then its income should likely be taxed.
I didn't know they had 23 lobbyists. But I'd have to see what the definition of "lobbyist" is though. If it's just a church leader that spent a day with a senator that's one thing. If they have professional lobbyists that's an entire other thing.
 

ronito

Member
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765642646/Court-Mormon-church-members-not-liable-in-injury.html

BOISE, Idaho — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members cannot be held liable for injuries suffered by a child on a church-organized outing in Idaho six years ago, the Idaho Supreme Court ruled.

Justices said there was no special duty of care owed by the defendants to then-13-year-old Heidi Beers of Meridian before she suffered a compound fracture of her ankle while jumping off a bridge into the Payette River.

The justices upheld an earlier ruling by 4th District Court Judge Mike Wetherell concluding the church didn't have a special relationship with Beers that required it to keep her safe.

If the court were to find otherwise, Justice Joel Horton wrote, such a decision could discourage religious organizations and other groups from planning excursions.

Beers, who belonged to the Autumn Faire Ward in Meridian, Idaho, was hurt in 2007 during a church-organized campout near Smiths Ferry. Her parents sued on her behalf, alleging negligence and the civil tort of child abuse related to the injury.

In addition to rejecting the negligence claim, the justices last Wednesday rejected the child abuse claim on grounds that church members on the trip weren't under any legal obligation to prevent her injuries.

"The Ward did not have a special relationship with Heidi that would impose upon it a legal duty to prevent her injury on the bridge," justices wrote in their unanimous 16-page decision, adding that under Idaho law only adults who have the care or custody of a child have a duty "to act in such a way as to protect children from injury or exposure to dangerous conditions."

The group had planned a carefree two days in central Idaho's mountains at a historic ferry on the North Fork of the Payette River.

After staying up late and talking, the group separated the next morning. Some went fishing or hiking, while others — Beers among them — went to a Payette River bridge to jump into the cool water.

Court documents say an initially reluctant Beers eventually summoned the courage to jump, but did so in an area that hadn't been checked for potential obstacles.

"It appears that she jumped directly over one of the bridge support columns," wrote Horton.

Fortunately, medical care was close by. One church member was a doctor, and an emergency room team from a Boise-based hospital just happened to be floating past.

A phone call by The Associated Press to Mia Murphy, the Beers' attorney in Boise, wasn't immediately returned on Monday.
Personally this probably has to do more with how Idaho's law is written than how it actually should work. You'd better believe that if my kid goes on a CHURCH outing that the church sure as hell has a special relationship to keep my kid safe.
 

CorvoSol

Member
So for the first time in awhile I have something worth sharing with the community. As y'all know I'm a BYUI student, and I'm doing my homework tonight, and it is science homework discussing ad campaigns and one which sparked a big ol controversy here at BYUI back in the Summer of 08. Business Majors have to run businesses for a semester and one such business was a burger joint known as the Sun Shack. This was their advertisement:

KW525JM.png


Apparently, the girl's image caused the stir (re: uproar) for being too provocative. Sister ain't even showing any cleavage. But don't just take it from me, read the following hilarious newspaper clippings for your own fun:

xjCg3i6.png


Note that just being semi-seductive is enough to elicit finger wagging and shaming from the writer of this little diddy. They themselves admit there is nothing overtly sexual, but for BYU-Idaho, the actual, holy school, it's just bad taste to be semi-seductive. And this, for the sake of reminder, from people for whom sex is supposed to be a perfectly good, wholesome, and enjoyable thing. Except that too often for American Mormons all sex is evil and all members of both sexes so untrustworthy with it that it has to be shunned to the point of this level of close-minded fear. It's funny to me, because in Brazil it wasn't like this at all. It also plays into the unspoken school culture that BYU Idaho is the only Holy School, and that BYUH and BYUP are both permissive sinners.

I'm probably as apologist as it gets for the Church, but I just found this all the height of absurdity and characteristic of this school's sometime insanity that I thought I should share. I really love it here at BYU Idaho, but man, sometimes.
 

mik

mik is unbeatable
I'd be more offended by the questionable ethics of stealing the concept of another ad campaign. And in a way that makes utterly no sense. "Teaching about good advertising values?" How about just teaching good advertising?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Where's the mustard and mayo? Why would ketchup be smeared over the upper lip and not the sides? Hamburgers, how do they work?

They didn't think this through at all.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Where's the mustard and mayo? Why would ketchup be smeared over the upper lip and not the sides? Hamburgers, how do they work?

They didn't think this through at all.

Honestly the choice of Ketchup over God's preferred Mustard is the true cause of uproar.
 

Doodis

Member
Guys, I think we really know what's going on here. The Lord is offended that it's not the holiest of condiments on her lip, behold, even fry sauce.
 

ronito

Member
So have you guys read that new page on the lds website about race?

http://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood

I know the church has to do something but I'm not sure this is it.
In essence they're saying "Well Joseph Smith ordained two black people! But the rest of the prophets were wrong, Opps. Bad on us lol. And to our credit while we were dicks to black people, we had no problem with the rest of you brownies." I find it interesting that they call it a revelation, if I remember rightly one of the apostles wrote that it was a negative revelation as in, "We're going to lift the ban, let us know if we shouldn't. Nothing? Ok we'll lift it."

The last two paragraphs though are where the landmines really are. The church can't disavow over a 100 years of its history or your scripture. Obviously as a latino I find the whole race issue incredibly important and don't really feel the "lol we dunno." approach unsatisfying. Of course, I don't really see what the church can say/do, I mean I feel at least in that they're being honest, they don't know why.
 

CorvoSol

Member
So I love my school, and I love the Church, I do, and I want that said before I launch into this, because today BYUI went mad with power. Today the school issued an edict to the housing complexes (you have to live in approved housing to go to school, and so if BYU revokes your "approval" your business is fried, I guess? I dunno how that works) to set some filters on the TVs in the complexes.

Now, honestly I was a-okay with the porn filter because heck, that's just that. I felt that our net was already heavily filtered (the web-filter does not let you access sites with "tasteless/unsavory" content) and I assumed that "filters" on the TV meant "We're gonna make it so you can't see the raunchy titles of the XXX shows and laugh about them anymore." Which I was pretty ambiguous about.

No. They blocked everything that wasn't G rated. So then there was some outcry (and all of this in the space of today) and it turns out its PG-13.

I am 25 years old. I am expected to get a job, a college education, choose a woman to reign with me throughout the vast expanses of eternity in celestial worlds beyond mortal comprehension and raise a family with her, but I cannot be trusted to watch things that are PG-13?

PG. 13. Now the TV is like "This program blocked because: Strong language, violence, sexual content." And I'm just kinda at a loss.

This isn't a Church thing. This isn't even a BYU thing. This is BYU-Idaho going flat out mad with censorship and I cannot wrap my brain around it. I mean there is NOTHING to do in this town. That is the great mystery of Rexburg: there's nothing to do here and they limit it even further and then have hilariously high punishments for minor infractions because they know there will never, ever be a riot.

I just don't have words for this. It isn't about the TV for me, I watch stuff on my lap top most of the time. It's about the fact that the school has and is using the power to prevent me from watching things.

I don't know, I could go on and on with this rant but the point is that there are times where I very much agree that YSAs are treated as grown up infants and it kinda bugs me.
 

CorvoSol

Member
So it should.

In the church you are not considered an adult until you are married, have kids, and are fully employed. This is purely an extension of this mindset that the church creates

Sure, I agree that that is a problem, but this tv thing is sort of taking what is already a problem to the extreme. I just kinda wonder what went down in that meeting where they decided this was okay to do. I mean I already know, but to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation would've been something else.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I visited the computer lab at BYU-H once and the whole thing felt way more totalitarian than necessary for a normal library. You had to have your student ID mounted on top of the computer so it could be seen by the attendant at all times.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I visited the computer lab at BYU-H once and the whole thing felt way more totalitarian than necessary for a normal library. You had to have your student ID mounted on top of the computer so it could be seen by the attendant at all times.

We don't have that here, but I also only use the library and computer labs for printing things.
 

ronito

Member
Does BYU still block Youtube?

Also, I wish I was in Utah Valley right now. Everyone stocking up on emergency supplies for the oncoming gay apocalypse.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
So it's been several years since I've been to the temple, but isn't the law of chastity covenant to not have sexual relations with anyone you're not legally married to? If you're legally and lawfully married in a same sex union, are you technically breaking that covenant?

I realize that the church doesn't recognize the marriage, but that's not laid out in the covenant. Right?
 

Westonian

Member
Sure, I agree that that is a problem, but this tv thing is sort of taking what is already a problem to the extreme. I just kinda wonder what went down in that meeting where they decided this was okay to do. I mean I already know, but to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation would've been something else.
Remember when Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."?

Apparently no one at BYU-I remembers.
 

ronito

Member
October surprise guy is back with more hype again:
Thank you all for your support.

I received word on Friday [Dec 20] that, subject to me providing a further 2 depositions, news is likely to be released sometime in January 2014. Please don't hold me to that date as I do not have control over the actual timing. Also, I have learned that some curve balls can be thrown to delay this matter becoming public knowledge.

Be assured I am doing all within my power to bring this to fruition. The depositions have been done but others involved in the process are now on holiday shut down until January 6.

Hopefully all will be revealed some time in January but please do not crucify me if there is delay for some unforeseen reason.

Tom
Two depositions? Others involved? Some people posit that it's the Government, I don't think so. It's probably just lawyers. Now I don't know for sure, are depositions only done after a lawsuit has been filed? Some are saying so. But if I remember rightly can't you do depositions without a lawsuit.
 

ronito

Member
Missionaries stopped by today. They said they don't live in apartments instead they live in members houses in order to save the church money. Since when was this a thing? That's gotta add even more suckage to a mission, seriously. And aren't they paying like $1200 a month or something? And they can't even get a place of their own?
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Missionaries stopped by today. They said they don't live in apartments instead they live in members houses in order to save the church money. Since when was this a thing? That's gotta add even more suckage to a mission, seriously. And aren't they paying like $1200 a month or something? And they can't even get a place of their own?

Times are hard man. Internet be deconverting those souls and tithe payers...
 
Missionaries stopped by today. They said they don't live in apartments instead they live in members houses in order to save the church money. Since when was this a thing? That's gotta add even more suckage to a mission, seriously. And aren't they paying like $1200 a month or something? And they can't even get a place of their own?

Isn't the missionary cost still just around $400 a month per missionary? I've never heard anything like $1200.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
I almost feel bad that Im out of town sunday. The gnashing of teeth wil be entertaining.

It really hasn't been a big deal so far. Haven't heard a lot of talk either way, and I work downtown in SLC and live in Davis County (both ends of the spectrum). Seems like a big shrug and carry on with life so far.
 

Fathead

Member
It really hasn't been a big deal so far. Haven't heard a lot of talk either way, and I work downtown in SLC and live in Davis County (both ends of the spectrum). Seems like a big shrug and carry on with life so far.

Havent been to church yet, its been a huge talking point at work.
 

ronito

Member
Actually someone brought up a good point today. They pointed out that one of the apologetics' talking points about homosexuality is that gays can't marry so if they ever acted on their urges they'd be committing fornication. i personally never bought it, it was just a weak argument saying "Well the church doesn't hate gays. It hates fornication between any sex." When, no the church hates gays. But now that gay marriage is legal in many places what happens to that argument?
 

ronito

Member
There is one great thing about no longer attending church, not having to deal with the stupid schedule changes at the beginning of the year. Man I remember 7am church, and 3pm church. That will ruin your week.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Haha, wow. Out of curiosity, what was the context? Did it actually have anything to do with the talk?

Yes. It was a talk about Eternal Marriage, the speaker's point was "Don't go rushing into relationships" and since, I guess, in Frozen
the first love interest turns out to be sucky
, that was his point.

But he spoiled the entire movie, man. THE ENTIRE. MOVIE. Freaking Song Lyrics, man.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Yes. It was a talk about Eternal Marriage, the speaker's point was "Don't go rushing into relationships" and since, I guess, in Frozen
the first love interest turns out to be sucky
, that was his point.

But he spoiled the entire movie, man. THE ENTIRE. MOVIE. Freaking Song Lyrics, man.
When something has meaning you're expected to know it. Imagine if people refused to talk about the Prodigal Son or any other parable for fear of spoiling the ending. What's important isn't the plot, but the lesson.

The less consequence a story has, the more it can be spoiled. Consequence can also refer to general societal resonance or impact, as something can become popular enough to enter the cultural vernacular even without having a particular lesson.
 

ronito

Member
I know this is petty, but a dude spoiled the entire plot of Frozen during Sacrament today. There ought to be a law, man.

Mormons LOVE to think that Disney is the unofficial source of modern day parables.

SOOOOOOooooo many Lion King = the gospel talks.
Hell, one seminary teacher gave a whole lesson about how the Karate Kid is a parable for repentance.(ok not disney)

It's what happens when you have a lay clergy.
 
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