They're not the same thing.
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Most common reason kids get bullied? Weight (NYT)
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They're not the same thing.
Edit: Ehh I give up
You're right, emotional abuse can be much more painful than physical beatings.
Its not? Sounds like justifying negative behavior by a positive result. Who knows, if the crime rate decreases here, maybe all that police brutality was justified after all
Once I started eating well it didn't take very long for me to realize that most of the things I used to like were trash. And when I'd go back to indulge in them as a reward I'd often end up regretting it because it made me feel gross and didn't taste nearly as good as I'd remembered.
And you don't want to see what dying of diabetes is like. It's horrifying. Death by any standard is "horrible" but diabetes in particular is brutal. Neurological damage, brain damage, etc.
They're not the same thing. But they both describe a similar outline of absurdly ignorant beliefs: that a indisputably negative behavior - like insulting a fellow human being for something that has incredibly complex causes or being beat by ones parent - can lead to a positive, which somehow justifies the negative.
Rookje
Member
I'm in another world in southern California. All the kids of parents I know eat healthier than most adults I know. One even snacks on kale chips and seaweed snacks. Another has smoothies. None of them eat anything processed, all organic stuff. No candy or sweets except on birthdays. One kid told me as I was eating chips at a party in front of him "That will make you fat..." SoCal is gonna have the sexist adults in 20 years (if it doesn't already...).
Are you going to continue to just run in the thread and say something only to edit your response because you don't want to debate?
It's getting kind of silly.
I got made fun of for being overweight and guess what, it made me realize I should stop eating so much and plus I started exercising, building confidence and never got buillied again. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
Same. I probably started changing when I was 12 or so. I made the choice to stop eating so many snacks etc..didn't really need to exercise. And then I got older, and realised the importance of exercise.
Dude, take that shit elsewhere. I never said any of those things. I said it was a tough sell. Don't talk to me about moving goal posts when you're bringing taxes, rape and other rhetoric's that don't have place in this discussion. Grow up.
I'm aware. But if there are people around them that want to help them (and there are people on this very forum who have tried to help others who have thrown every excuse possible NOT to), then what else is left? Do they need to be treated with medication to solve their obesity?
Honestly, it really shows a lot that the second I say "it's a tough sell" and "you can change it easily" I get one guy flying off the handle and another telling me I have a simple little world view. Both of your posts read to me as "hey, you're an idiot for thinking that way, it's not the case - but we aren't going give you examples of better ways to treat the issue!"
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It just gets really annoying, because you know most people are just Googling their end of the argument and finding bits and pieces of studies that look legit to use as some kind of ammunition in a message board argument. You might be one of the rare exceptions, since I know you're pretty passionate about this stuff, but even you have to take the time to delve into the studies leveled against your arguments to find where they are wrong or not actually applicable.
No, you're not aware because you wouldn't have said it otherwise. As far as answers, yes there are professionals that can help people with this problem, but not everyone has the access or even the self-awareness of what the problem is. Treating the issue as black and white simply shows ignorance, and I'm sorry you feel offended for me calling you on it but I'm not going to sit back and just read you spout off without a rebuttal.
I mean I've googled stuff too of course. In this case it's one of the subjects I've researched and read books about because I used to be obese and I wanted to understand why I found it so difficult to lose the weight, even though as a kid and in high school I was not overweight (I was on baseball team and in the fit club).
But I do try to read the links people post (which is why I responded to several of them with stuff from their own links), and I don't really know what a better alternative is. I mean if people didn't even try to research stuff (via google or wherever), then all we'd have is people making declarations out of thin air and lots of confusion over to whether any of it is supported by anything at all. I'll take a little bit of overzealous googling compared to that alternative
Came in to give my two cents, realized I don't really have a chance of proving my point so I'm conceding. Don't see what you're still trying to provoke
I'm trying to provoke discussion, if you don't want to that's fine, nothing wrong with that.
I just don't understand the need to run in just to not say anything.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I'm of the position that bullying is wrong. I've never been overweight but I imagine it's really hard. I imagine that most overweight people clearly know they're overweight and if they had they could easily not be they wouldn't be. Probably some emotional stuff there and whatnot.
But I also don't like discussing it or analyzing it as if these people have some sort of disorder or disease. I find that kind of disrespectful as well. Maybe that's just me. I just see em as people. The fat ones, the lanky doofus ones, etc...all just lame ass humans.
Not me though. I don't weigh anything that can be measured. I simply exist.
But I also don't like discussing it or analyzing it as if these people have some sort of disorder or disease. I find that kind of disrespectful as well. Maybe that's just me. I just see em as people. The fat ones, the lanky doofus ones, etc...all just lame ass humans.
Not me though. I don't weigh anything that can be measured. I simply exist.
OK - I'm showing you one way that has proven to work for people with obesity issues, which is confronting the problem head on. If you're gonna continue to sit there and tell me it doesn't work, we aren't going to get anywhere, and in reality it's you that has a tiny world view. I'm confident in saying that the best method of dealing with being over-weight is accepting it's a problem and changing it. Do you need therapy to reach that point? If so, that's fine, and that's another way to solve the issue. Is medication the answer? Problem not, it seems like more of a band-aid fix, and TBH is an easier way out. Surgery? The same thing, it doesn't address the core of the problem, and that is the persons inability to accept that their lifestyle choices are poor.
This is what you said:
I simply applied your thinking to another situation where someone's own personal choice that resulted in a negative action, and now everything is not so clean cut? What is the honest difference between someone and what they choose to eat and someone and what they wear? We know what's socially acceptable, but is it truly right?
I'm sorry if my example comes off as heavy handed, I intended to be so. If your actions to it are not consistent, then there's a problem.
I worked with a lady who was way overweight a few years ago. She did her job fine, better than most there, but the owners of the company treated her with such contempt and derision because of her appearance it was sickening. I've seen other people who are overweight and obese outright treated like pieces of shit because of how they look, not who they are.
I'm not advocating that overweight/obese people shouldn't be made aware of their eating choices, even if they find it patronizing, there are better ways to go about it. I am advocating that they be treated like we all want to be treated, and not shunned or laughed at. And in this thread, I keep running into "yeah, of course.....but"
but what?
But you literally cannot change it easily. You keep repeating this, but it is not true. You're conflating simplicity of the components involved in losing weight - minimizing caloric intake coupled with exercise - with the difficulty of actually executing these things. 80% of overweight people will fail every attempt at doing this, no matter how many times they try. I suspect you'd have better reasons for why they so consistently fail then "they were not insulted enough" or "they don't want to lose the weight."
If you actually are interested in fixing this epidemic, we'd start characterizing how difficult it really is so that we start off being honest to people over how insanely tough it is going to be and we'd start looking into ways to address the deeper core issues that actually cause the poor eating habits.
No you're misleading. I never said the solutions you just typed don't work at all.
I said it's not a one size fits all solution, while your dismissive attitude made it seem like it was.
You can wear whatever the fuck you like because it isn't hurting you or anybody else. If you're going to be so purposely obtuse to make that comparison (which I'm not even going to spare the time of day to repeat because it's so flat out stupid), I can't take your response seriously.
You're right, it's not a one size fits all solution, but you seem to argue that it's a solution for the minority (Amir0x quote 20%). I'd argue it's the other way - one size fits most.
I can't help but wonder how skewed these numbers are. Its anecdotal but my job has taken me to several elementary, middle and high schools and the skinny and average sized kids well outnumbered the overweight ones, and what I'd term as obese was incredibly rare, but its not me making these determinations.
However, I would think any of our euro Gaffers here visiting a local elementary schools expecting to see a bunch of overweight kids rolling around the playground stuffing pizza rolls into their faces may be surprised at the reality.
Where are you getting that from?
You're making it up. You don't know what the percentages are and even if you did, what difference does it make? It's still a complex problem.
Do you know what the percentages are? Sorry, I don't have the resources to dispute this otherwise, but if you do I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Is this trolling? Can't tell with you.
Being fat isn't hurting anyone else and not even yourself in all cases and at a best stretch impacting healthcare costs (so are other factors that have zero to do with weight) but you can justify being an asshole to someone because these are ytour own fucking words
"While it may be seflish of others to body shame fat people, if you can CHOOSE to be a normal weight, why on Earth would you choose to be over-weight when it is effecting others? Is that not in itself selfish?"
Congrats, you're a fucking hypocrite.
I'm not the one that was making a percentage argument, you were.
Why would I have to show percentages when it's something you brought up?
Here is the study btw:
Approximately 20% of overweight people ever sustain weight loss. That by definition makes merely dealing with diet and exercise not a one size fits "most" solution - only 1 in 5 are ever successful in the long run.
That means there are other factors we must accept and face down if we ever are actually interested in stopping this health problem.
Resilient said:
I don't troll. So far I've extensively detailed every element of my points with heaps of research and articulation of thoughts. If you cannot accept what science says, that's your problem, not mine. You said wearing clothes does not hurt anybody, I demonstrated it actually can and does hurt people a very significant amount of the time. I'm demonstrating your inclination toward simplifying these problems to the detriment of the reality we're dealing with.
Nope, those CHOSE to be fat, they deserve what they get.
See Amir0x's post. I even said this in the very post you quoted. I hope you're reading what I say entirely, otherwise I'm wasting my time.
Not doubting that, but in a topic about fat kids being bullied you linked a YouTube video from a talk show about sweatshops and clothing. I'm trying to see the link, but I just don't think it's there mate.
Yeah, I totally said that didn't I? Lol you have a massive agenda so I'm not even gonna continue discussing this with you.
Sorry, I just thought someone might be actually more likely to view it if it was entertaining at the same time.
But the basic point is that a huge portion of major clothing suppliers from Wal-Mart to Gap get their clothes from the most abhorrent of conditions in sweat shops, including with child labor, which has actually led to the death of many of the people making these clothes. And all so we can get shirts and pants for insanely low prices. I'm trying to demonstrate that you're simplifying different subjects, where these issues are extremely complex.
So sometimes what you wear can hurt people, and diet and exercise alone clearly is not a one size fits most solution since only 20% are successful with it. Something more is at play.
Yeah, I've read similar studies and it just shows how misguided people are when they say. "Hey stop eating and exercise" or the really cop out argument "Well I don't condone treating people cruel, but they bring it on themselves." Really asinine line of thinking.
Am I Amir0x?
My whole issue was the way you've tried to simplify something that is not simple. Why would you bring a point of contention with Amir0x to me?
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
That definition.
Which means the amount of people who go from obese to thin and stay there most likely exist in such small numbers that they are statistically insignificant. I mean, a 300 lb. person dropping down to 270 and staying there for a year could hardly be considered getting in shape or even dropping to a healthy weight, and yet that's enough to be counted in the small group of the "successful" 20%.
The number that always gets me is the comparison to substance abusers. 75% of severe substance abusers will eventually get clean permanently. Compare that to the statistics for overweight people and that is dire.
Someone did hit on a decent point earlier that many ignored... trying to lose weight is not actually dissimilar to trying to quit, say, heroin addiction, except in one case society is constantly pricing unhealthy items/restaurants cheaper than healthy alternatives, advertisements for this unhealthy stuff is plastered everywhere and offered in convenient vending machines at your place of employment, and you must continue to eat in order to survive. And you may have been raised by parents who also were obese, and may also have genetic markers that negatively predispose you toward obesity (although in this case, there are genetic markers that encourage addiction as well).
And actually, our bodies 'reward system' is activated when we eat not dissimilarly to the way it's activated when we do certain drugs. Sooo... yeah.
Great. Yea, you're obviously not Amir0x.
I know that's your issue. I quote Amir0x because you said it wasn't a one size fits all solution, and I said I would argue it's one size fits most, and objected to something that Amir0x quoted from one study.
This thread is truly great. It amounts to a lot of dismissing one sides arguments/opinions, with very, very few people suggesting alternatives.
You yourself said obesity was kind of a selfish act, I don't see where I'm putting words in your mouth.
My only agenda, from the onset was to combat this idea that fat people deserve what they get, because ultimately, they ate the food. They make bad choices so screw them.
I personally disagree with this idea, not to mention it runs contrary to the notion of just treating people, any people, regardless of difference with dignity.
Nobody would ever contend a woman deserves to be sexually assaulted based on her clothing choice, thats ludicrous, you and I know that. But should a fat person be subject to teasing, employment and social discrimination based on their eating habits, or other factors that contributed to their weight?
Teasing isn't rape, but we can't condemn negative action based on victim choice in one example and shrug our shoulders on the next if we are to remain logically consistent in our arguments.
I'm not trying to piss anyone off and I think we both got a bit angry there, so I'm going to back off
And NOW I'm saying you pulled that out of your ass, and before you say prove me wrong with a study, it's not about that.
One size fits most rarely ever relates to human behavior. You're simply showing a lack of understanding that things are not always how they appear.
I've suggested alternatives.
1. Teach empathy. Nobody has any clue what complex set of individualized factors led to someone being obese. Since you can never determine what factors played a role in someone's obesity simply from looking at them, teaching to be kind and understanding (which is different from accepting) is the optimal ideal. It's better to seek solutions together from a position of empathy rather than disdain or recriminations.
2. Fund better research on ways to mitigate the deeper issues, such as genetic markers and environmental conditions. Implement society wide campaigns run by a government agency of some sort meant to come up with solutions for better eating habits (better options in school cafeteria, a reduction in economic disparity, vending machine changes, etc).
3. Fund research on medical alternatives to simple diet and exercise by itself, since diet and exercise by itself is clearly failing most of the time. Perhaps there is some sort of medicated alternative that allows one to both utilize diet and exercise and more easily have the mindset required to keep the pounds off once you start losing them. We won't know until we stop treating obesity as the sole result of one's selfish lack of control.
4. Be honest with people regarding the difficult road ahead. No, losing weight is not easy. Telling people it is easy will simply discourage them when they join the vast majority of overweight folk who never keep the weight off. Instead, letting people mentally prepare for the tough road ahead will put people in at least a slightly better footing when they start walking down that street.
5. Come up with area/culturally specific forms of weight loss, meant to maximize effectiveness of weight loss for people living in different environments. I.e., targeting different types of exercise campaigns based on if someone lives in a city or someone lives in the country. Use culturally specific and popular icons meant to encourage this behavior, based on the likes and dislikes of people in any given area.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Because of all the years of abuse I received growing up I get legitimately furious when I see people bullying each other. Especially when it comes to kids.
I'll go full on Bad Santa on them if I saw it happening in front of me.
I'll go full on Bad Santa on them if I saw it happening in front of me.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
In the end, it really comes down to taking the focus and blame off of individual responsibility. That's only helped encourage bullying and really hasn't done a thing to help anyone actually get healthy. It's perfect for the corporations selling garbage as they can justify their cans of coke as being only "xx calories" and sugar-filled cereal products as "part of a balanced breakfast" etc.
Yup.
All you have to do is
Perhaps the world could use a business like Quitters, Inc. to help motivate them to lose weight instead of quitting smoking.
Sure, nothing shifts the blame quite like empathy. Thats what the world needs less off, bullying feeds off empathy and understanding.
But I do agree those with weight issues need to take ownership of them, and feel empowered that even if they do not have control over all factors, they do over some of them. and that can make a big difference.
These are great points, and agree with all of them. This is the approach we need to be taking.
I will say though, that points 1, 2, 4 and 5 all come down to accepting there is a problem with the individual and fixing it. Which is a bit of a contradiction for those saying it's not as simple as that, that there is an underlying problem within them that needs to be treated alternatively to just telling them there is an issue. When you have a lot of these things being implemented in different parts of the world, what else is left? Item 3, and that's what too many people are falling on as a crux.
I agree with Zefah. Partial responsibility needs to be taken off the individual. But the individual needs to be responsible for their status at the same time, otherwise they can't continue on the tough road to weight loss.
If this is directed at me, no there is no contradiction. Of course people have to be told more then they have a problem. They need help obviously. The five points Amir0x made are very good starting points and it seems your attitude has changed a bit, which is also good so I'm glad that the list helped you.
This is worded funny.
Am I correct in reinterpreting it as:
"Amirox is correct - it is important to take the focus and blame off individual responsibility. The focus on individual responsibility has only really helped bullying and hasn't done anything to make anyone healthier. It's also been great for corporations to continue selling garbage as the blame is shifted to the individual that consumes it, while the corporation is only offering 'choice'."
BigGreenMat
Member
So is their solution that there isn't enough bullying to keep our kids slim or that we need to find a better motivational tactic? Because we have a lot of very fat kids.
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