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MSNBC: Sorry, George: Critics used to love Star Wars

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Willco

Hollywood Square
I'm surprised this hasn't made its way on the forum, yet...

By John Hartl
Film critic
MSNBC
Updated: 5:30 p.m. ET April 8, 2005

In a “60 Minutes” interview last month, George Lucas told Lesley Stahl that he didn’t care what critics had to say about “Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith,” the sixth and final installment in the series.

“I’m not worried at all,” he told her. “They haven’t liked any of them really, and they especially haven’t like the last two, so hey, it can’t get any worse.”

Yet in 1977, while the major Academy Awards were handed out to Woody Allen’s “Annie Hall,” the Los Angeles Film Critics’ Association named Lucas’ first “Star Wars” as best picture of the year. Indeed, “Star Wars” and its 1980 follow-up, “The Empire Strikes Back,” received mostly rave reviews wherever they played.

“A great work of popular art,” gushed Time magazine about the first installment. Newsweek called it “pure sweet fun all the way.” The Hollywood Reporter claimed that “it will undoubtedly emerge as one of the true classics in the genre of science fiction/fantasy films.” The New York Times’ Vincent Canby called it “the most elaborate, most expensive, most beautiful movie serial ever made.”

Even the late New Yorker critic, Pauline Kael, who felt manipulated by the first “Star Wars,” praised “Empire” as “a vibrant, fairy-tale cliffhanger” in which “the characters showed more depth of feeling than they had in the first film.” To many critics and more than a few fans, “Empire” remains the class act of the series.

Why Ewoks?

The trouble started with the Ewoks-plagued third film, “Return of the Jedi” (1983). It continued with the misbegotten movies Lucas produced (1986’s “Howard the Duck,” 1994’s “Radioland Murders”) and with the return of “Star Wars” with “The Phantom Menace” (1999) and “Attack of the Clones” (2002). Kael’s review of “Jedi” hinted at the problems the series would face.

“Every time there’s a possibility of a dramatic climax, a chance to engage the audience emotionally with something awesome, [the director] trashes it,” she wrote. She called “Jedi” “an impersonal and rather junky piece of moviemaking.”

Lucas is correct that many critics didn’t care for the last two episodes in the series. Both Time and Newsweek suggested that “The Phantom Menace” should be retitled “The Phantom Movie”; Variety’s critic, Todd McCarthy, felt that “it is neither captivating nor transporting, for it lacks any emotional pull.” As for “Attack of the Clones,” The Chicago Sun-Times’ Roger Ebert spoke for many when he claimed that “it is a technological exercise that lacks juice and delight.”

Critics were hardly alone in disliking “Menace” and “Clones.” While both did well at the box office at first, audiences dropped off quickly, and toy sales were disappointing. Lucas never recaptured the devotion inspired by the first “Star Wars,” which many people saw over and over again.

During its initial release, “Jedi” was more popular than “Empire,” but when the first three films were reissued in 1997, those positions were reversed. “Empire” has clearly gained in stature, while “Jedi” has lost admirers. When grosses are adjusted for inflation, the first “Star Wars” still comes out as the top ticket-seller of the series.

According to Box Office Mojo, it’s the No. 2 all-time moneymaker, bested only by “Gone With the Wind.” No. 12 on that all-time list is “Empire,” followed by “Jedi” (No. 14), “Phantom Menace” (No. 19) and “Attack of the Clones” (No. 80)

At the 2000 Oscars, “The Phantom Menace” became the first “Star Wars” movie to win nothing, not even for special effects. The voters gave all the technical awards to the new kid on the block, “The Matrix.” The pattern was repeated three years later with “Attack of the Clones,” which lost the visual-effects prize to “Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers.”

Were the first two films really that much better?

Fans of “Menace” and “Clones” sometimes insist that critics are being overly nostalgic about “Star Wars” and “Empire,” that the scripts weren’t that much better, or that the series was all about action and special effects anyway.

Yet the early films had plenty of room for humor, romantic yearning, dramatic engagement. Nothing in the recent installments matches the rowdy comedy of the Cantina sequence in “Star Wars,” or the soaring emotion of that film’s twin-sunset scene, as Luke Skywalker senses his destiny (and John Williams’ score lets us know it).

“Empire” is similarly filled with moments that transcend the Saturday-matinee “Buck Rogers” serials that inspired Lucas: the edgy love spats between Princess Leia and Han Solo; the revelation of Darth Vader’s identity; Luke’s eerie fall through space; the rather chilling transformation of Yoda from comic muppet to sage.

Dialogue from the early movies is certainly less than Shakespearean, but many phrases have entered the language. Ben Obi-wan Kenobi’s magically disorienting announcement, “These aren’t the droids you’re looking for,” has become shorthand for bluffing your way through a difficult situation. Grand Moff Tarkin’s over-confident advice, “I think you overestimate their chances,” has replaced “famous last words” in some circles.

Other one-liners, like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s “I’ll be back” from “The Terminator,” fall into the you-had-to-be-there category: “Leave that to me,” “I have a very bad feeling about this,” “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.” Still, nearly everyone WAS there, so these can’t really be dismissed as in-jokes.

The only one of the “Star Wars” movies to receive an Academy Award nomination for its screenplay, the original 1977 film remains a model of streamlined storytelling. “Empire” daringly carried on the franchise by flirting with Greek tragedy — and getting away with it.

Now that the series is coming to an end, there are reasons to believe that Lucas will forget about Jar-Jar and the Ewoks and find his way back to that level. “Revenge of the Sith,” which focuses on the transformation of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader, will necessarily be a darker “Star Wars” movie than any previous episode. Here’s hoping it’s more than just a downer.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
It's all part of his plan. Get our hopes low with the first two so the 3rd will seem fantastic by comparison.
 
That article summed up my feelings pretty nicely.. go figure. While I have interest in seeing RotS.. I think that mainly comes from being spoiled six ways to sunday over it.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.
 

teiresias

Member
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.

Oh . . . dear . . . god . . .

There are no words.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
THAT'S RIGHT. PALPATINE CREATED ANAKIN... WITH HIS MIND.

MIDICHLORIANS GET!

I wonder who the brave soul (who is probably unemployed now) was that dared to tell George Lucas that was an incredibly shitty idea.
 

DMczaf

Member
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.

Shocked%20NC.JPG
 

Brannon

Member
AGAIN with the midichlorians... and that's some goddamn awful writing there. That better NOT be on the super special deluxe limited collector's edition that you just KNOW will be coming out in a few years with even more enhanced special effects and added scenes and a psychic Jar-Jar femme fatale having the ability to see into the future and determine that it was indeed Greedo that shot at Han first.

So there.
 

MetatronM

Unconfirmed Member
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.
:lol :lol :lol

It even has the "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!"


I can safely say that if I saw that in a movie theater, I would have burst out laughing. And I think at least half the theater would have joined me.
 

Azrael

Member
If George Lucas didn't care about what critics say, he wouldn't have all but removed Jar Jar Binks from Episode 2. Nor would he have undone some of the changes he made to the Special Editions of the original trilogy for the DVD release. George Lucas is a bad liar.
 

MrCheez

President/Creative Director of Grumpyface Studios
Man, Palpatine is the ultimate mack daddy. He impregnates women with his mind O_O
 
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.


:lol :lol :lol :lol
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.


WTF that is rock bottom for the star wars universe. Lucas must of sold his soul for the scripts of new hope and empire.
 

jett

D-Member
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol :lol

Lucas, you SUCK. I wish Manabyte was unbanned so I could laugh at him trying to defend his assmaster.
 
I think George can still spin a great story, its just the execution of the story which is beyond him.

I've read some of the script, and the dialouge between Anakin-Padme still sounds terrible.

One of the problems is these character's in the prequels are always friggin' talking about their emotions instead of actually emoting. It's so on the nose and its so unnatural.

I think that was really a strength of the Star Wars OT. The characters had a sense of "naturalness", so that even though it was fantasy/sci-fi, it attracted a massive audience.

Your uncle Bill or even your kid sister could watch it and follow it as a story. Maybe they didn't quite understand what the hell a Wookie was or how the hell lightspeed worked, but hey everyone can understand that Luke Skywalker is stuck on a boring ass planet where he has to do chores for his father and wants to get off and have some adventure in his life.
Or that Princess Leia is an uptight, uppity princess who's used to "nice men", but she could use a good rogering from Han Solo.

The prequels are too stiff, too scripted, that all the emotion is sucked right out of the experience.

And btw, I believe in that scene above (ugh), Palpatine is lying.
 
maharg said:
You have far too much faith.

You'll understand once you see Episode III.

Palpatine lies to Anakin, promising him the secret of eternal life via the Dark Side of the Force so he can save Padme.

Thank gawd, Lucas cut that scene out though. :lol

Thing is, George comes up with some great ideas, but left to his vices, he can also come up with some real stinkers. Jar-Jar Binks has to be the biggest disaster as a character of the last I dunno ... maybe of all time, lol.
 

TheDuce22

Banned
I think that was really a strength of the Star Wars OT. The characters had a sense of "naturalness", so that even though it was fantasy/sci-fi, it attracted a massive audience.

The biggest factor was Harrison Ford playing Han Solo IMO. Without him the first two would have been just as crap as the rest of them.
 
TheDuce22 said:
The biggest factor was Harrison Ford playing Han Solo IMO. Without him the first two would have been just as crap as the rest of them.

Sure there was Han Solo, but all the other characters had a good interplay too.

Lando, Luke, Leia, even little scenes like when R2-D2 is playing holochess with Chewie ("I suggest a new strategy, Artoo -- let the wookie win" C3PO) are charming.

Jar-Jar stepping in a pile of crap or getting into a fight by eating a frog-thingamajig on Tatooine is just crass and stupid.
 

TheDuce22

Banned
I havent seen the movies in a while but I just remember Han making the whole thing somehow more believable and grounding every scene he was in. He was the only character with some depth that reacted to things in a somewhat human way, the rest were just cornballs from outerspace that I didnt give two shits about.
 
OK, I couldn't wait, I've been reading some (not all of the Episode III) script.

I have to admit there are some powerful moments. It will also strike a nerve with events that are happening now (The Patriot Act and things of that matter). I still can't compare it to the OT since its so different, but it is more compelling than Episode I or II.
 

maharg

idspispopd
soundwave05 said:
You'll understand once you see Episode III.

Palpatine lies to Anakin, promising him the secret of eternal life via the Dark Side of the Force so he can save Padme.

Thank gawd, Lucas cut that scene out though. :lol

Thing is, George comes up with some great ideas, but left to his vices, he can also come up with some real stinkers. Jar-Jar Binks has to be the biggest disaster as a character of the last I dunno ... maybe of all time, lol.

Oh I don't doubt that he lies in general. But I think this is something that Lucas had in mind from the start, not just some kind of whim they decided not to do after all like some people are suggesting. I think it's the whole reason for giving an explanation to the midichlorians in ep1 at all, when it was utterly unnecessary. And unless the next, unwritten, line was going to be "HAW HAW FOOOOOOLED J00," you know some people would take it as truth regardless of intent.
 
maharg said:
Oh I don't doubt that he lies in general. But I think this is something that Lucas had in mind from the start, not just some kind of whim they decided not to do after all like some people are suggesting. I think it's the whole reason for giving an explanation to the midichlorians in ep1 at all, when it was utterly unnecessary. And unless the next, unwritten, line was going to be "HAW HAW FOOOOOOLED J00," you know some people would take it as truth regardless of intent.

To be fair though, this idea was axed fairly early on in Episode III drafts. I'm surprised Lucas lets stuff like this out.

I'm sure if you could read some of the earlier ideas/concepts that even some of your favorite scripts had, your stomach might turn a little.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I think it was realized pretty early that the whole midichlorian angle was going nowhere with the fans. There were two things that fans hated about ep1: Jar Jar and a pseudo-scientific explanation for the Force. Both had a pretty clear impact on ep2 and no doubt ep3.
 
Having read some of the script -- the political aspects of Episode III which were a bore in Ep. I/II are actually interesting in Ep. III. That's the one thing I've noticed. George may take some shit about certain things, but I think he's always made it clear that Star Wars was born out of the spirit of the 60s/70s and the "Empire" in ways in allusion to the government/war machine (The Emperor is based in part on Richard Nixon).

So that stuff was cool.

I still have some concerns as to how certain scenes will play though.
 
Substance said:
Give me a fucking break.. Are you serious? :lol

I'm serious. I can give you a link to the script if you want it. But I think in general George is using allusions to prior politcal empires as well (Rome in particular), not just current events. But its hard not to hear some of the dialouge in Episode III and not have it tinge with current events.
 

Dujour

Banned
I read that part of the script. I don't think he was lying. And if he was, why did Vader choose to stay wth him arterwards?
 
My feelings on what I've read of the script.

Much more compelling than Episode I and II combined. The story finally goes somewhere. The political downfall of the Republic is very well handled IMO.

On the flipside though, the dialouge as written (specifically scenes between Padme and Anakin) still have a very high potential to come across as "eye rollingly bad", knowing how Lucas directs and how Natalie/Hayden have handled their dialouge in the previous two movies.

I do have some major concerns about how Anakin turns to the Dark Side. I think this aspect of the story
may be too abrupt
. Also I think there is one scene in particular which is so disturbing ... I dunno what to make of it, I'm really surprised that Lucas would go there. You will know it when you see it.
 

duckroll

Member
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.

Holy shit! I don't care if he cut it from the movie, the very fact that it EXISTED in Lucas' head (and now, in print) shows how much of a hack he is! :lol :lol :lol
 

mrkgoo

Member
soundwave05 said:
Or that Princess Leia is an uptight, uppity princess who's used to "nice men", but she could use a good rogering from Han Solo.

Leia always struck me as a take charge, take no crap from anybody type person.

but hey everyone can understand that Luke Skywalker is stuck on a boring ass planet where he has to do chores for his father and wants to get off and have some adventure in his life.

Hmmm...have you seen Empire yet? :p

Seriously though, I'd so hate to have to see a scene like that. Yes, the idea is parallels, but this would be taking it too far. I appreciate that it was an early draft, and I REALLY appreciate that he axed it, though it shouldn't have been there in the first place (I can only hope it was a brainstorming session).

I think there is one scene in particular which is so disturbing ... I dunno what to make of it, I'm really surprised that Lucas would go there. You will know it when you see it.

I haven't read the script, but I know enough it seems -
the younglings
?
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.

Only you would use a scene not even in a movie that hasn't even fucking come out yet as an example of why it will be bad. I hope Mary Jane dies in Spiderman 3 so you have to defend it like a fanboy.
 
I think this film will be better recieved than the prior two, but I don't know if its a "home run" type of deal either.

Certain things seem to work in the script, others are very much wishy-washy. The stakes are also higher if certain scenes are not handled with much more care than the direction we've seen in Ep.I/II, it could really be disasterous.

I'm also kind of amazed that they made it through 3 prequels without really any clear explaination to the Jedi-Sith history.
 

DSN2K

Member
Willco said:
This is even better! Thanks to TFN Forums, I've learned that this scene has been cut from Episode III (as seen in the Making of The Revenge of the Sith book):

Page42.jpg


:lol

That is a horrible twist with some horrible dialogue. Man, Lucas should never step near a typewriter ever again after this trilogy.

and thats not in the film, try again wilco.
 

RedDwarf

Smegging smeg of a smeg!
I still can't believe anyone would take a movie seriously that has characters named General Grievous and Count Dooku. I'm meant not to get this movie it seems.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I'm not a fan of the prequels ... but it seems odd to me to rip apart an ACTION movie, because of its dialog.

If you wanted to say that the action was boring, or the effects are uninspired. Then you would be on the right track .. but even so called "great" movies like Spider Man 2 or LOTR had some horrible dialog in them.

It's silly to nitpick over it.


The subway (train) scene in Spider Man 2 (effects, dialog, camp) is one of the worst scenes in recent history. Far worse than any Jar Jar scene.
 

Kenobi

Member
maharg said:
If the word midichlorian is so much as uttered in this movie, I will walk out.

I've got news for you. After listening to the audio book, it is mentioned maybe once or twice, but it is a part of why Anakin turns. But it's nothing like flicking on a switch tho. Which is good.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
shantyman said:
When double standards exist you should.
Are you president of the Lucas fanclub or something? The Star Wars movies suck. The original really wasn't much better than the current movies, but nostalgia's washed away some of the stink. If you'd like, you could pay me $10, and I'll spit in your face for two hours, give or take. And it'll be a hell of a lot more rewarding than the crap on the screen. I've seen every Star Wars movie multiple times, and even paid to see Phantom Menace twice (I still don't know why). Not because they're good, but b/c it's almost necessary to see them to get in on the ridicule. That and they are made for the big screen. Otherwise, there's better sci-fi in a shitty episode of Enterprise than in the Star Wars universe.

There, got my Star Wars hate out for the day. Carry on. PEACE.
 
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