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[RetroGamingUK]

Looking at the best selling games that generation we get a better idea of what was needed for Saturn to become a success…

Mario 64 - 11.9mm
Impossible on Saturn, too much geometry required

Gran Turismo 10.8m
Daytona CCE is the only example on Saturn of a racer with multiple cars running well, however graphics are incomparable

Final Fantasy VII 10.2m
Saturn would have been fully capible if this

Mario Kart 64 9.8m
Saturn would have been fully capable of this

Tekken 3 8.3m
Saturn should have been capable of this, trading resolution for lighting

Goldeneye 8.0m
A step too far for Saturn, way too much stage geometry, on screen characters and 3D weapons

Ocarina of Time 7.6m
Again, too much geometry with large open stages

Metal Gear Solid 7m
We've seen a tech demo of one of the basic indoor stages, however I think the more complex outdoor stages are out of reach of Saturn's capabilities


Arcade ports aside, Sega just didn't have the talent to match Mario 64, Ocarina, GoldenEye or Metal Gear Solid, nor likely the funds to throw at a Tetsuya Miziguchi Gran Turismo equivalent.

Most of these games push N64 and PS1's polygon capabilities to the limit, rendering them almost entirely impossible on Saturn.

 

[nkarafo]

I never personally tested framerate but it has about half the animation frames of Model 2 version modern ports and greater input delay. It running at 30fps relative to known 60fps arcade version is the simplest explanation I could think of.

Game runs at 60 fps. The 3D character models move at 60fps also.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Looking at the best selling games that generation we get a better idea of what was needed for Saturn to become a success…

correct thing to do is to take the best selling games up to 1996 because after the base is built the investigation loses its meaning.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

correct thing to do is to take the best selling games up to 1996 because after the base is built the investigation loses its meaning.

Indeed

By far the greatest talent at Sega at that time was Yu Suzuki, but his forte was arcade fighters and racers. He was no Shigeru Miyamoto.

Then there's, Tetsuya Miziguchi. Sega should have seen the writing on the wall with arcades and given him the funds for a large scale racing sim, instead Sony and Kazuhiro Yamauchi ended up with the 100m+ selling franchise that dominates the racing sim genre.

 

[nkarafo]

Mario Kart 64 9.8m
Saturn would have been fully capable of this

hmm, i'm not sure.

Although the characters are sprites and the most of 3D environments are sparse, there's still almost infinite draw distance (if you exclude Rainbow Road). And some tracks like the Royal Raceway and Bowser's Castle may be too much.

It's still the most doable compared to the other games though.

 

[cireza]

Except i just did.

It didn't sell well. That's, like, pretty major.
It didn't have good enough adoption from Genesis/MegaDrive users. Only around 1 every 13 Mega Drive users had one.
It didn't have enough exclusive/original games that can be considered great and/or influential.
It has a very small library of games, only 200 something titles in all regions combined and a big portion of it is shovelware FMV slop.
Another equally big portion is Mega Drive ports with redbook audio and very few (if any) other improvements. Games like Eternal Champions being one of the rare exceptions.
Even as an FMV console it's still worse than the CDi, Amiga CD32 and 3DO because it has the worst video quality by far. So it doesn't even do that right.
Only a handful of games make good use of it's extra hardware capabilities.

What else do you need for a console to be considered... not that successful?

This still doesn't demonstrate anything, and is overall a bunch of personal opinions thrown as if they were absolute truths, which they certainly aren't in any way.

1) It didn't sell well :
What do you hope here ? That if you keep repeating this it will become true ? You have no ground to state, factually, that it didn't sell well. And the support it had points at the exact opposite. Argument : FAILED.

2) It didn't have good enough adoption from Genesis/MegaDrive users. Only around 1 every 13 Mega Drive users had one :
As explained previously, this add-on was targeting an audience with more income, it was never meant to sell to every single MegaDrive owner. And thinking this is beyond dumb. Argument : FAILED.

3) It didn't have enough exclusive/original games that can be considered great and/or influential :
It had many fantastic exclusive games that are still perfectly playable nowadays. What you think of them is purely subjective and games having to be "influential", however you measure this (lol), to be good or count is a total stretch and doesn't work towards demonstrating that the add-on was a failure. Argument : FAILED.

4) It has a very small library of games, only 200 something titles in all regions combined and a big portion of it is shovelware FMV slop.
200 games sounds like a lot to me for an add-on over the course of 5 years. The Nintendo 64, which was the main Nintendo home console didn't even have double this number. A big portion being FMV is a total stretch again. This is pure BS. The console had maybe 30 FMV games out of 200. Argument : FAILED.

5) Another equally big portion is Mega Drive ports with redbook audio and very few (if any) other improvements. Games like Eternal Champions being one of the rare exceptions.
Ports with added content and Redbook audio are most of the time excellent versions and a lot of people enjoying greater sound quality are perfectly fine with these. This was one of the main features of the add-on, so you cannot hand-wave it as if it was a bad thing, nor does it make the add-on a failure. If you had no interest in these, you simply ignore them. Argument : FAILED.

6) Even as an FMV console it's still worse than the CDi, Amiga CD32 and 3DO because it has the worst video quality by far. So it doesn't even do that right.
Ok, but in the end, that's only 30 games or so. They were well made in several games as well. And what were the prices and releases dates of these competitors by the way ? Argument : FAILED.

7) Only a handful of games make good use of it's extra hardware capabilities.
This is more BS and personal opinion. A game using Redbook Audio makes good use of the hardware. A game using the ASIC chip makes good use of the hardware. A game having videos makes good use of the hardware. A game using the additional memory offered by the CD makes good use of the hardware. What were you expecting exactly ? That the SEGA-CD was going to push full 3D games of the level of 32bits consoles ? Argument : FAILED.

In any case, none of this demonstrates that the SEGA-CD was a failure. It's just more random BS, bad-faith and personal (bad) opinions thrown in the discussion. You can think all of this for sure, but it doesn't bring your narrative to life.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Final Fantasy VII 10.2m
Saturn would have been fully capible if this

No, in short, the Saturn doesn't have 2mb ram like ps1, it has 1mb + 1mb. The data from games like RE2 and FF2 saturates that 1mb, making it impossible to transfer to the other 1mb. Deep Fear and RE1 are possible because they are less advanced games. There would also be a massive fps drop in battles, shadows and transparency would be mesh, the FMV would not fill the screen.

 

[cireza]

No, in short, the Saturn doesn't have 2mb ram like ps1, it has 1mb + 1mb. The data from games like RE2 and FF2 saturates that 1mb, making it impossible to transfer to the other 1mb. Deep Fear and RE1 are possible because they are less advanced games. There would also be a massive fps drop in battles, shadows and transparency would be mesh, the FMV would not fill the screen.

FF VII is ugly as sin and super linear. The worldmap is an absolute joke. Most of the game consists of still 2D pictures with ugly 3D models on top. Saturn can run this any day.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Mario Kart 64 9.8m
Saturn would have been fully capable of this

I doubt it because the sprite models require the cartridge speed, they should be replaced by 3D models, so you already know, low frame rate.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Saturn can run this any day.

Hideki Sato, he's guilty.
this guy fucked Sega.

 

[RoboFu]

No, in short, the Saturn doesn't have 2mb ram like ps1, it has 1mb + 1mb. The data from games like RE2 and FF2 saturates that 1mb, making it impossible to transfer to the other 1mb. Deep Fear and RE1 are possible because they are less advanced games. There would also be a massive fps drop in battles, shadows and transparency would be mesh, the FMV would not fill the screen.

sort of but not quite correct ... PS1 strength is it can hold compressed textures and decompress them on the fly when drawing with very little performance hit. Saturn has to have the uncompressed textures in ram to not get a big performance hit but the 4 mb ram card took the Saturns texture capabilities far beyond the playstation. If the Saturn would have been the popular console we could have had any of the playstation games with even better / more textures because of the ram cart.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Virtua Fighter on 32X doesn't run at 60fps lol. It's a great port, but Remix is superb as well, character models are huge and textures very detailed. It's a totally different take from the original visuals, but that's what it needed to be.

Yeah. 32X version runs like arcade version and remix version (minus load times) but I swear the initial Saturn port plays faster. Poor wording on my part.

 

[cireza]

Oh, and while we are at it, let me demonstrate how wikipedia is full of wrong info. And this one is particularly hilarious, because they have the source citing the right numbers linked in their page, but they don't refer to it lol.

Screen Digest | PDF

fr.scribd.com

Page 60.

This clearly states that at the end of 1994, the Mega-CD/SEGA-CD sales were at 2,765 worldwide. Which doesn't include 1995 and beyond, and probably doesn't include other variations and the CDX/Multi-Mega. Yet, this wikipedia page proudly present 2,24 as being the total sales numbers, while in their very sources, they have a contradictory information. That's because the 2,24 information comes from incomplete Famitsu data.

This tells us 2 things :
- the Mega-CD most likely sold above 3 millions, which in my opinion considering the product and target audience, doesn't make it a huge success but certainly not a failure either
- people who write wikipedia pages have no clue on how to read the sources they link

You should always be skeptical of stuff you read on the internet.

 

[nkarafo]

doesn't make it a huge success but certainly not a failure either

I guess i'll take it.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

Well, at least its not another "What could have saved the Dreamcast" video.

 

[cireza]

I guess i'll take it.

Seems reasonable.

Now we can get back to the topic and discuss how the Saturn was a commercial failure. Because this undoubtedly was, even if it didn't throw SEGA in the red as hard as the Dreamcast.

 

[Crayon]

Guys, I believe VF1 was 30fps in the arcade lol. Hard to believe, I know.

Yes, but naturally they would need to make fud against full 3D, however the PS1 is a more powerful hardware and could keep up with the Saturn in any trick that Sega invented. 1993 was a cruel year, there was no way Sega could make a 3D console even close to the standard of the PlayStation for less than $600. When the competitor is much more powerful the only alternative was to make a Saturn weaker than the Saturn we know.

It would be necessary to make a 2.5d 480p console for Sega to resist and beat the N64 and PS1. I can't see any other alternative

Uh oh I could already start going down this road all day.

FUD against full 3d... Yeah that was a thing I hadn't thought about. It was coming fast, though. The closest thing would be to get a competing narrative going that 3d at home was premature. Sega's pseudo-3d offer would be speed and precision, which is totally on brand and could have been a legit strength. Games like that were done on playstation but almost always in the shadow of full 3d games for a few reasons as we know.

Wasn't that basically what the 32X was supposed to be? A cheaper, more streamlined step between the Genesis and Saturn.

Look at what homebrew devs have pulled off — Sonic Robo Blast 2 and even Tomb Raider running on actual 32X hardware.


Sure, Sega couldn't have shipped games like that in '94–'95 — modern tools and hindsight make that possible now — but that's not the point. The point is the hardware itself wasn't the useless brick people make it out to be.

If Sega had focused, invested, and actually supported the 32X instead of dropping it overnight, it could've delivered far more than what we got.

It would definitely be falling somewhere around there as far as capabilities. In fact, throw a 2xcd on a neptune and call it that. I think those ram carts were really effective, too. Leave the slot for the ram cart!

The marketing makes all the difference, though. Even though it's very similar hardware, this would still amount to cancelling one product (32x) for a "very different" product (Neptune w/ cd).

The vibe off 32x right off the bat was "this isn't it". If it was positioned as a proper next gen console. The single two biggest buzzwords were CD-ROM and 32-bit. It would have had those.

These games would have to be killer, though... Full effort would have had to been on pumping games out for this thing. Imagine launching with a new vision for a mainline sonic, on a system that could come nowhere close to doing sm64, and without having seen sm64.

What happens to multiplatform games is a whole nother rabbithole. Probably has a lot to do with what happens in japan before it releases elsewhere.

I can see why this is 20 pages now, geez.

edit: my relpy to crusher was mangled a bit.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

No, in short, the Saturn doesn't have 2mb ram like ps1, it has 1mb + 1mb. The data from games like RE2 and FF2 saturates that 1mb, making it impossible to transfer to the other 1mb. Deep Fear and RE1 are possible because they are less advanced games. There would also be a massive fps drop in battles, shadows and transparency would be mesh, the FMV would not fill the screen.

According to Capcom Saturn's CPU was too slow for a port of Resident Evil 2

It didn't have enough power for the graphics.

 

[RoboFu]

According to Capcom Saturn's CPU was too slow for a port of Resident Evil 2

It didn't have enough power for the graphics.

homebrew has already ported the whole first area to the saturn using the 4 mb cart. so no that wasn't true.

 

[cireza]

According to Capcom Saturn's CPU was too slow for a port of Resident Evil 2

WTF is this shit

Resident Evil 2 is :
- a 2D picture
- a handful of 3D models on top

Come on.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

WTF is this shit

Resident Evil 2 is :
- a 2D picture
- a handful of 3D models on top

Come on.

Official Sega Saturn Magazine Issue 36 : EMAP : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

 

[RetroGamingUK]

homebred has already ported the whole first area that to the saturn using the 4 mb cart. so no that wasn't true.

And without the 4MB card?

Do you have any footage of this?

 

[Crayon]

WTF is this shit

Resident Evil 2 is :
- a 2D picture
- a handful of 3D models on top

Come on.

Doesn't really matter how many 3d models there were when they were pushing the ps1 as much as they could *at the time*. My read of the magazine scan above is that he didn't think they could get the game running on saturn in an acceptable way *at the time*. These homebrew experiments decades later are very informative but they are not always outright debunks of what developers of the time said.

 

[RoboFu]

And without the 4MB card?

Do you have any footage of this?

 

[RoboFu]

Doesn't really matter how many 3d models there were when they were pushing the ps1 as much as they could *at the time*. My read of the magazine scan above is that he didn't think they could get the game running on saturn in an acceptable way *at the time*. These homebrew experiments decades later are very informative but they are not always outright debunks of what developers of the time said.

that is exactly right.. tools and computers today in general make it much easier to play around and try different things compared to back then. Not to mention A LOT MORE PEOPLE have the knowledge to do so compared to back then as well.

 

[cireza]

Official Sega Saturn Magazine Issue 36 : EMAP : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

That's the usual BS publishers come up with when they make the game exclusive for other reasons.

 

[Alexios]

That's the usual BS publishers come up with when they make the game exclusive for other reasons.

I like the next question is one so heavily disputed by the same haters (oh DC could never do Model 3 game x justice, never mind it did do it for games y & z), but the first should be taken as gospel (but ignore that it says others could do it still, lol).

Cue excuses about how they just couldn't elaborate further (more powerful in this way, less in that, they must mean step 1, not step 2+ etc.) but further elaboration could never apply in the first quote in just the same way (we couldn't do it without investing as much time and money as we do for PS development which we obviously aren't going to do for a platform that's slowing down hard and as we're sure every gamer we can reach will eventually have a PS the way things are going)

Dude also questions it wouldn't be possible without the RAM cart when told it's been done with it (without professional dev paid for it, as if the Saturn homebrew scene size rivals AAA devs) against his own dang quote saying RAM wasn't an issue.

Not to mention A LOT MORE PEOPLE have the knowledge to do so compared to back then as well.

I doubt we have so many amazingly skilled and equally amazingly invested Sega Saturn homebrew engine devs (and assembly programmers to max such systems, that's more alien by the day compared to back then) to rival the devs who made its 1000+ retail games developed back then (and likely several hundreds more that could have been developed but weren't just due to its sales/exclusivity agreements/etc.). Even the one or two engines that show great results that do rival (but I wouldn't say exceed, show me a homebrew Saturn racer with physics like Sega Rally's, a rail shooter on par with Virtua Cop 2 and Panzer Dragoon Zwei or even a 2D game to rival SFA3/D&D/Radiant Silvergun) some of the best commercial engines on it don't have anything close to fully featured games yet (if ever). Hell, if we judged them just a few years ago instead of today we'd think their capabilities were way lesser, before showing off the Unreal tech demo they just had crude boxy maps and models from other games, just showing off some nice effects like transparencies. Nothing like the MGS tech demo seemed possible either so if Frogbull, just one dang person, didn't care to make the effort we wouldn't think it possible so one person here and there don't rival a whole developer industry of the 90s. It's certainly awesome to see some of these results, even more awesome there's an active community doing hacks and mods and fan translations, but come on.

There are systems where some clever people implemented things thought impossible, from Amiga to GBA or N64 (and even in this famous case it's mostly one guy, what if he had never paved the way, then we'd say the N64 can't be exploited any better than it was before), but that doesn't mean that's suddenly the case and equally so for every other system. We wouldn't think such great things for the DC homebrew scene just a few years ago, as mostly 2D shmups and very basic/crude 3D games were done (one racing game exception but it's not anywhere close to DC's best), nothing like GTA III or the Minecraft-like engine or commercial DC games achieved but you would just as easily say the same argument about DC in 2020 as well and we wouldn't know any better how things would advance in the next 5 years (and how with one or two missing persons they would never have).

Hence all the crow eating from some of the same idiots/haters disputing any kind of GTA-like sandbox game was even possible on DC, never mind the actual GTA III and Vice City, lol, just saying a GTA-like game/genre was possible on DC was met with mockery (even Rockstar's ex lead engineer saying so on twitter was mocked here, or they tried to once again reinterpret his statement as only the very early alphas that looked completely different to the final result being possible on DC, then they completely changed their tune and did an 180 to how of course it's possible since it was initially made to be multiplatform so the homebrew port isn't impressive, lmao). And we can only prove they were idiots/haters spewing complete bs under a thin veil of vague, fake tech jargon (some dude was even claiming you can't stream any game data, only audio, from the GD drive and several of the people in this thread were "liking" those posts and piled on the DC hate and mockery of any folks saying otherwise, again for a mere GTA-like, not the exact game with its full demands tuned to the different architecture of the PS2/PC, which folks still somehow managed to cram in DC) just because so many stars happened to align, starting from the GTA III decompilation to the guys that took on the port (and didn't get cease & desisted like the decompilation itself was, so they easily might have never had that base to start from so haters would still be claiming their bs).

 

[RoboFu]

I like the next question is one so heavily disputed by the same haters (oh DC could never do Model 3 game x justice, never mind it did do it for games y & z), but the first should be taken as gospel (but ignore that it says others could do it still, lol).

Cue the excuses about how they just couldn't elaborate further in that quote (ie, more powerful in this way, less in that, oh they must mean step 1, not step 2+ etc.) but further elaboration could never apply in the first quote in just the same way

Dude also questions it wouldn't be possible without the RAM cart when told it's been done with it (without professional dev paid for it, as if the Saturn homebrew scene size rivals AAA devs) against his own dang quote saying RAM wasn't an issue.


I doubt we have so many amazingly skilled and equally amazingly invested Sega Saturn homebrew engine devs to rival the devs who made its 1000+ games developed back then (and likely several hundreds more that could have been developed but weren't due to its sales/exclusivity agreements/etc.). And even the one or two engines that show great results that do rival some of the best commercial engines on it don't have anything close to fully featured games developed yet (if ever). Hell, if we judged them only a few years ago before some of the better tech demos were created we'd think their capabilities were way way lesser, like before showing off the Unreal tech demo they just had crude boxy maps and models from other games, just showing off some nice effects like transparencies. Nothing like the MGS tech demos seemed possible either so if Frogbull didn't care to try and make that or the other dude's engine wasn't offered there'd be zero great examples.

There was not 1000+ devs. devs were so in demand that in Japan they wouldn't even let them use their real names for a long time.

you have to remember there was very little interest in computer programming in the 80s and console dev kits had to either be rented or bought for a lot of money and thats if you qualify. No one could just grab an emulator or look up years worth of hardware docs like you can do now. There are even concepts home brew devs use now that was unheard of back then.

 

[Arioco]

Final Fantasy VII 10.2m
Saturn would have been fully capible if this

Well, good luck trying to replicate all these transparencies and particle effects on a Saturn.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Well, good luck trying to replicate all these transparencies and particle effects on a Saturn.

Yeah I take it back, it would have looked a dog's dinner with Saturn's mesh "transparencies".

 

[Ozzie666]

Yeah I take it back, it would have looked a dog's dinner with Saturn's mesh "transparencies".

I have to admit back in the day I didn't care or might not have been fully aware of the Saturns 3D limitations. The graphics had their own charm and I was fine with them. Even the use of mesh was normal to me as it was used on the genesis. It was all about the games really. The Saturn had its own unique look as did N64.

I'd kill for a Phantasy Star at the same level and budget as FF7.

Obviously PS1 was superior technically but Saturn was good enough.

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

This sentence makes absolutely no sense lol. What do you hope to demonstrate with such broken logic exactly ? Apply it to the Wii U and understand the extend of the stupidity of your sentence, which basically says that a product is guaranteed to sell well even if it is trash as long as the previous product was a hit. Unbelievably dumb.

No, I'm trying to isolate a factor so as to explain it to the likes of you. May God forgive my hubris in believing I could accomplish such a feat.

But let's think about the Wii U... if Wii had sold poorly... and all other factors remained equal, the Wii U would have sold even worse. Because the happy Wii customers willing to buy Wii U sight unseen would be fewer in number.

Sega CD is like a reverse Wii. Such little fun was had, so few minds were blown, that 32x would have sold a lot more had the Sega CD simply not existed.

 

[cireza]

Well, good luck trying to replicate all these transparencies and particle effects on a Saturn.

Shining Force III is loaded with transparency effects and looks better than this.

 

[s_mirage]

That's the usual BS publishers come up with when they make the game exclusive for other reasons.

RE2 (and RE1 for that matter) stored its background graphics compressed, with multiple angles stored per load. It then used the Playstation's MDEC decoder to decompress them on the fly as needed, allowing for quick switching between angles/locations. The Saturn didn't have any such decoder, it couldn't have fit the graphics uncompressed in its stock RAM, and obviously Capcom didn't think that the CPU was fast enough to emulate the task.

RE1 got away with it by storing backgrounds uncompressed, but reduced in colour depth to 8-bit from the Playstation originals which were either 15 or 24-bit (I forget at present). The same approach wouldn't have worked with RE2 because it stored more angles per scene than RE1, and they still wouldn't have fit.

Sure, maybe the 4MB RAM cart could have been used, but I doubt a western release of that would have been on the cards in mid-late '98, when the Saturn market was basically dead.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

RE2 (and RE1 for that matter) stored its background graphics compressed, with multiple angles stored per load. It then used the Playstation's MDEC decoder to decompress them on the fly as needed, allowing for quick switching between angles/locations. The Saturn didn't have any such decoder, it couldn't have fit the graphics uncompressed in its stock RAM, and obviously Capcom didn't think that the CPU was fast enough to emulate the task.

RE1 got away with it by storing backgrounds uncompressed, but reduced in colour depth to 8-bit from the Playstation originals which were either 15 or 24-bit (I forget at present). The same approach wouldn't have worked with RE2 because it stored more angles per scene than RE1, and they still wouldn't have fit.

Sure, maybe the 4MB RAM cart could have been used, but I doubt a western release of that would have been on the cards in mid-late '98, when the Saturn market was basically dead.

RE2 (and RE1 for that matter) stored its background graphics compressed, with multiple angles stored per load. It then used the Playstation's MDEC decoder to decompress them on the fly as needed, allowing for quick switching between angles/locations. The Saturn didn't have any such decoder, it couldn't have fit the graphics uncompressed in its stock RAM, and obviously Capcom didn't think that the CPU was fast enough to emulate the task.

RE1 got away with it by storing backgrounds uncompressed, but reduced in colour depth to 8-bit from the Playstation originals which were either 15 or 24-bit (I forget at present). The same approach wouldn't have worked with RE2 because it stored more angles per scene than RE1, and they still wouldn't have fit.

Sure, maybe the 4MB RAM cart could have been used, but I doubt a western release of that would have been on the cards in mid-late '98, when the Saturn market was basically dead.

As far as I can tell there's no difference in background visuals between PS1 and Saturn

Where Saturn really falls down is 3D models, ugly textures devoid of lighting. The characters on Saturn just don't feel like they're part of the scenery, it's like they're floating on top of it.

Tomb Raider is just the same with blocky, low colour depth textures.

These were big games that magazines compared a LOT back in the day.

 

[Alexios]

Shining Force III is loaded with transparency effects and looks better than this.

Idk about better (although it does have textures, which FFVII didn't really in the battles, though the games after that implemented them) but certainly competitive. Easy enough to show some of it off with Premium Disc footage since it's basically a boss rush.

Mesh transparencies could look more like this for many back in the day anyway (RF & Composite).

Sega Rally at this timestamp for a 3D game, Mega Man X4 at 3:28 for another big mesh example...

Ah, back to Tomb Raider comparisons, neat. Well, it looked better on PC, did that make PS trash? Again the usual "anything better than PS (whether PC or N64) doesn't matter, anything worse is complete shite". Nobody here said Saturn was equal to/better than PS in 3D and that the games (especially ports not tuned to its architecture) would be 1:1, just that they were doable but if you're always gonna fall back to "lulz forgot about da mesh transparenciez" why even pretend discussing it at all? Ah well, check out that draw distance eh (Saturn is top).

If they "optimized" it on Saturn as they did on PS (ie cut it down majorly here and there, remove the distortion effects in the water, etc.) maybe performance would match up a bit closer eh

Shame that it barely runs on Saturn

I acknowledged the performance mate, did you miss it? It "barely runs" (ignoring draw distance, apparently extra polygons can't affect perfomance, especially on these old platforms, who knew) but something like Syphon Filter or Perfect Dark performing similarly on PS and N64 was a must play

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Ah, back to Tomb Raider comparisons, neat. Well, it looked better on PC, did that make PS trash? Again the usual "anything better than PS (whether PC or N64) doesn't matter, anything worse is complete shite". Nobody here said Saturn was equal to/better than PS in 3D and that the games (especially ports not tuned to its architecture) would be 1:1, just that they were doable but if you're always gonna fall back to "lulz forgot about da mesh transparenciez" why even pretend discussing it at all? Ah well, check out that draw distance eh (Saturn is top).

If they "optimized" it on Saturn as they did on PS (ie cut it down majorly here and there, remove the distortion effects in the water, etc.) maybe performance would match up a bit closer eh

Shame that it barely runs on Saturn

Don't even pretend it would be any better with an extra month's development

 

[Ozzie666]

Idk about better (although it does have textures, which FFVII didn't really in the battles, though the games after that implemented them) but certainly competitive. Easy enough to show some of it off with Premium Disc footage since it's basically a boss rush.

Ah, back to Tomb Raider comparisons, neat. Well, it looked better on PC, did that make PS trash? Again the usual "anything better than PS (whether PC or N64) doesn't matter, anything worse is complete shite". Nobody here said Saturn was equal to/better than PS in 3D and that the games (especially ports not tuned to its architecture) would be 1:1, just that they were doable but if you're always gonna fall back to "lulz forgot about da mesh transparenciez" why even pretend discussing it at all? Ah well, check out that draw distance eh (Saturn is top).

If they "optimized" it on Saturn as they did on PS (ie cut it down majorly here and there, remove the distortion effects in the water, etc.) maybe performance would match up a bit closer eh

Okay, so we've come to the conclusion that Saturn 3D was good enough for the era, still below PS. Barring Mesh, which I still don't mind. Tomb Raider does look a little rough though, but let's say they could have improved it a smidge. Not sure the Saturn could have done justice to the subsequent improvements to Tomb raider though.

II we remove 3D and graphics. We are back to the laundry list of reasons why Sega and the Saturn failed. Consumer confidence, too many products, blaming the 32X, Sega mismanagement, Sega management Rift, reliance on arcade experiences, poor development tools, documentation, pricing, No Sonic, Bernie Stolar and misreading the market.

Did I miss anything? 3D quality was the least of the Saturn's problems it seems. Case closed. Good work everyone! lock it up, we are done here.

In a world without the Playstation, they would of done really well.

 

[Team Andromeda]

So that "barely runs" (again ignoring the draw distance, apparently extra polygons can't ever affect perfomance, especially on these old platforms, who knew) but something like Syphon Filter or Perfect Dark performing similarly on PS or N64 didn't stop them from being hailed as a must play

I don't know why you even bother with the trolling. Everyone knows the Saturn version of Tomb Raider was rushed out for a deal with SEGA Europe. If you look at Core's Blam Machinehead there is little between the two versions performance wise, same for Thunderhawk And even the trolls know that in most games, optimization is done at the end stage of development and the Saturn version of Tomb Raider missed out a near 2 months worth. It would have moved a lot better

But like with all threads like this you'll only here when the PS1 version is better, never when the Saturn version performed better. Loaded runs better on the Saturn with less slowdown

 

[RetroGamingUK]

But like with all threads like this you'll only here when the PS1 version is better, never when the Saturn version performed better. Loaded runs better on the Saturn with less slowdown

According to who?

Saturn version has…
- worse frame rate
- worse textures
- worse transparencies

The only plus I can see for Saturn is the character sprite changes colour when there's an explosion, character sprite looks bad on both versions though.

 

[Team Andromeda]

According to who?

Saturn version has…
- worse frame rate
- worse textures
- worse transparencies

The only plus I can see for Saturn is the character sprite changes colour when there's an explosion, character sprite looks bad on both versions though.

Saturn has less slowdown and that came from an CVG interview with the Saturn programmer of the game.
And you video link is another pissant attempt, it not even comparing like for like or the same sections of the game

How well does Road Rash run on the PS btw?

 

[RetroGamingUK]

How well does Road Rash run on the PS btw?

We've come full circle to Saturn having advantages on "3D" games that rely heavily on 2D assets haven't we.

Everyone knows the vast majority of fully 3D games ran better on PlayStation, you're simply clutching at straws now.

 

[cireza]

RE2 (and RE1 for that matter) stored its background graphics compressed, with multiple angles stored per load. It then used the Playstation's MDEC decoder to decompress them on the fly as needed, allowing for quick switching between angles/locations. The Saturn didn't have any such decoder, it couldn't have fit the graphics uncompressed in its stock RAM, and obviously Capcom didn't think that the CPU was fast enough to emulate the task.

RE1 got away with it by storing backgrounds uncompressed, but reduced in colour depth to 8-bit from the Playstation originals which were either 15 or 24-bit (I forget at present). The same approach wouldn't have worked with RE2 because it stored more angles per scene than RE1, and they still wouldn't have fit.

Sure, maybe the 4MB RAM cart could have been used, but I doubt a western release of that would have been on the cards in mid-late '98, when the Saturn market was basically dead.

But developers above stated that the issue was the CPU, not the RAM. Who is right then ?

I don't see why the Saturn would have not managed to store and uncompressed on the fly a few pictures. Seems trivial.

 

[diffusionx]

But developers above stated that the issue was the CPU, not the RAM. Who is right then ?

I don't see why the Saturn would have not managed to store and uncompressed on the fly a few pictures. Seems trivial.

It's not, decompression without built in hardware is extremely slow and CPU intensive.

 

[cireza]

It's not, decompression without built in hardware is extremely slow and CPU intensive.

Oh come on lol.

We have been decompressing on the fly assets since the 8 bits days, from the ROM (slower than RAM) and it walked perfectly well.

Here we are talking about static backgrounds, not some crazy 60fps animation.

You don't need dedicated decompression hardware to decompress static images, this is ridiculous.

 

[NeverYouMind]

It's not, decompression without built in hardware is extremely slow and CPU intensive.

That is why the door and stair climbing animations are so "short" in PS1 versions I guess...

 

[diffusionx]

Oh come on lol.

We have been decompressing on the fly assets since the 8 bits days, from the ROM (slower than RAM) and it walked perfectly well.

Here we are talking about static backgrounds, not some crazy 60fps animation.

You don't need dedicated decompression hardware to decompress static images, this is ridiculous.

ROM is slower than RAM but much faster than the CD. And compression algorithms are slow, period.

Also - it was literally explained a few posts above, with regards to not just RE1 but RE2. We are talking about real world evidence here. You responded to the post. If you want to persist in your belief that you know better and it's imaginary then I don't know what to say.

 

[Team Andromeda]

RE2 (and RE1 for that matter) stored its background graphics compressed, with multiple angles stored per load. It then used the Playstation's MDEC decoder to decompress them on the fly as needed, allowing for quick switching between angles/locations. The Saturn didn't have any such decoder, it couldn't have fit the graphics uncompressed in its stock RAM, and obviously Capcom didn't think that the CPU was fast enough to emulate the task.

RE1 got away with it by storing backgrounds uncompressed, but reduced in colour depth to 8-bit from the Playstation originals which were either 15 or 24-bit (I forget at present). The same approach wouldn't have worked with RE2 because it stored more angles per scene than RE1, and they still wouldn't have fit.

Sure, maybe the 4MB RAM cart could have been used, but I doubt a western release of that would have been on the cards in mid-late '98, when the Saturn market was basically dead.

That isn't true or what Capcom said. They said it wasn't using the 4MEG Cart, but the real reason it was canceled was because of the Dreamcast

And anway Capcom say a lot of things only to go back on their word. X-Men Vs StreetFight was only possible on Saturn, Viewtuful Joe only possible on the Cube and lets remember Capcom was looking at brining RE2 to the GB Advanced for crying out, hell we even got Mortal Kombat 3 on a bloody Game Gear. Any port is possible with willing and cutbacks

 

[Team Andromeda]

We've come full circle to Saturn having advantages on "3D" games that rely heavily on 2D assets haven't we.

Everyone knows the vast majority of fully 3D games ran better on PlayStation, you're simply clutching at straws now.

Like I said you always bring up the ones that make the PS1 look better, never Saturn ones. I can't possibly think why LOL.
BTW, what's the framerate with Mass Destruction on the PS1 and does it have partical reflections?

 

[RetroGamingUK]

That isn't true or what Capcom said. They said it wasn't using the 4MEG Cart, but the real reason it was canceled was because of the Dreamcast

And anway Capcom say a lot of things only to go back on their word. X-Men Vs StreetFight was only possible on Saturn, Viewtuful Joe only possible on the Cube and lets remember Capcom was looking at brining RE2 to the GB Advanced for crying out, hell we even got Mortal Kombat 3 on a bloody Game Gear. Any port is possible with willing and cutbacks

When Capcom say something in a magazine it's lies.

When Gremlin say something in a magazine it's gospel. Got ya.