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[Sai]

Remember he had Itachi shaking in his boots who seemingly has sonned Oro since he was a young teen.

Y'know, there are very few people who still actually believe this, after discovering his true intentions, and strength. The Itachi vs Jiraiya debate still occasionally pops up because a lot of readers just thought of that as part of Itachi's act, with Kisame playing along due to Tobi's orders.

But was he even stronger than Sage Naruto? Naruto was apparently able to master senjutsu and become a perfect or near perfect Sage which Jiraya struggled with. And we saw Naruto one shot several paths.

I think Kishimoto tried to infer that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya when he confronted Rikudō Pain, but I don't think that actually happened until he was able to control the Kyūbi's chakra.

Idk, I would put him about or a little above Kakashi. He's probably right there with the Third.

I'd say that's about right.

[EDIT] - Crap. Didn't mean to double post. :/

 

[Frog-fu]

If Nagato was serious about taking on Jiraiya and didn't underestimate him, he would have wrecked Jiraiya with ease. I don't think Ma and Pa would be able to even get a chance to set up Frog Song.

Jiraiya puts Kakashi's ass to sleep though. Sages can't be fucked with by mere mortal men.

Orochimaru had a weaker Edo Tensei than Kabuto. They were not at the same level as the originals, very much unlike Kabuto's Edo Tensei.

Naw. Kabuto had a better Edo Tensei than Part I Orochimaru when he hadn't perfected it yet.

Part II Orochimaru used Edo Tensei to resurrect three Kage at their prime and Hiruzen. Plus he managed to control all save Hashirama from moving.

 

[rambis]

Y'know, there are very few people who still actually believe this, after discovering his true intentions, and strength. The Itachi vs Jiraiya debate still occasionally pops up because a lot of readers just thought of that as part of Itachi's act, with Kisame playing along due to Tobi's orders.


I think Kishimoto tried to infer that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya when he confronted Rikudō Pain, but I don't think that actually happened until he was able to control the Kyūbi's chakra.


I'd say that's about right.

[EDIT] - Crap. Didn't mean to double post. :/

Didnt Kisame only find out about Tobi after most of the Akatski had already died though?

I think they legitimately wanted Naruto also. If he only wanted to show up and make a statement then they did that in spades when they left kakashi out of commission. Yet they kept on. It really makes no sense for them to keep pursuing Naruto after declaring Jiraya to be too dangerous to fight. They even tried an elaborate plan to split Naruto up from Jiraya so they can grab him.

It makes alot more sense to me that kishi legitimately meant to show Jiraya as far above Itachi and then he just forgot and gave Itachi more power/feats afterwards than some elaborate scheme between Itachi/Obito/Kisame where they were just pretending to be cautious.

But even then I think Jiraya could've taken Itachi. Senin mode seems to always be able to trump dojutsu.

If Nagato was serious about taking on Jiraiya and didn't underestimate him, he would have wrecked Jiraiya with ease. I don't think Ma and Pa would be able to even get a chance to set up Frog Song.

Jiraiya puts Kakashi's ass to sleep though. Sages can't be fucked with by mere mortal men.



Naw. Kabuto had a better Edo Tensei than Part I Orochimaru when he hadn't perfected it yet.

Part II Orochimaru used Edo Tensei to resurrect three Kage at their prime and Hiruzen. Plus he managed to control all save Hashirama from moving.

Who says Nagato underestimated Jiraya, though? Or failed to take him seriously? I think sage mode legitly took him by suprise.

Also i think Kabuto and Oro Edo Tensei are basically equals. The second created the technique and Oro was able to steal it. Kabuto perfected it during the war arc and I think Oro used that version of it along with Hashi cells to enhance the binding power. Even though Edo Madara seemded a bit stronger than Edo Hashi and Madara even said that Hashirama hasnt regained his former power. Not to mention all the other Kage and elite shinobi Kabuto revived for the war.

 

[Sai]

Didnt Kisame only find out about Tobi after most of the Akatski had already died though?

Yeah, met him as "Madara", the "Mizukage" long before that though, and could have very well been the reason for his joining Akatsuki.

Honestly, all I said was mere conjecture to make some sense of the jarring difference in their later portrayal. While I don't think the Data Books' stat graphs are truly reliable for direct comparison, Jiraiya and Itachi were tied for the highest numbers among the characters in that thing. Some folks think Jiraiya is stronger, just as many think Itachi was. Lot of folks think Kisame was more powerful than them both when he merged with Samehada.

What the vast majority of them all agree on is that the disparity in strength between Itachi and Jiraiya that Kishimoto tried to portray back then no longer applies. We saw how strong they all were; there was no way Jiraiya could have handled them both.

 

[rambis]

Yeah, met him as "Madara", the "Mizukage" long before that though, and could have very well been the reason for his joining Akatsuki.

Honestly, all I said was mere conjecture to make some sense of the jarring difference in their later portrayal. While I don't think the Data Books' stat graphs are truly reliable for direct comparison, Jiraiya and Itachi were tied for the highest numbers among the characters in that thing. Some folks think Jiraiya is stronger, just as many think Itachi was. Lot of folks think Kisame was more powerful than them both when he merged with Samehada.

What the vast majority of them all agree on is that the disparity in strength between Itachi and Jiraiya that Kishimoto tried to portray back then no longer applies. We saw how strong they all were; there was no way Jiraiya could have handled them both.

Yeah it makes sense.

Kisames true power is another head scratcher as well. 7 gates Guy solo'd him yet he was supposed to be as strong as a Bijuu. Yet Guy seemed pretty useless in the fight with Naruto and Kakashi. Even though he held his own against B who has the second strongest Bijuu. Bleh.

 

[Sai]

His ability to merge with Samehada was a big part of the reason he was known as a tailless Bijū, and he didn't have it at the time he fought with Guy. And I'm pretty sure he would've wrecked Killer B, if not for his mission.

Also, Guy was puttin' in just as much work as Kakashi. Think he was only down for a bit because of he used the Gates.

 

[Frog-fu]

Who says Nagato underestimated Jiraya, though? Or failed to take him seriously? I think sage mode legitly took him by suprise.

Also i think Kabuto and Oro Edo Tensei are basically equals. The second created the technique and Oro was able to steal it. Kabuto perfected it during the war arc and I think Oro used that version of it along with Hashi cells to enhance the binding power. Even though Edo Madara seemded a bit stronger than Edo Hashi and Madara even said that Hashirama hasnt regained his former power. Not to mention all the other Kage and elite shinobi Kabuto revived for the war.

It was never explicitely stated but it's obvious. If Nagato had taken Jiraiya seriously from the start as he did with Naruto, i.e. if he had come at Jiraiya with all Six Paths from the beginning, there is simply no way Jiraiya would've survived that onslaught. He'd be overrun and destroyed before he could even put up a fight.

Sage Mode was a niftly little surprise to Nagato but he never once doubted he would beat Jiraiya. He was that confident because he knew he was much stronger.

Kabuto copied everything. It's far more likely Part II Orochimaru had Edo Tensei perfected before he "died" (albeit unable to use) and Kabuto assimilated his remains. Kabuto also relied on Anko's CS, i.e. an additional source of Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra to bolster his control.

Edo Madara meant he wasn't alive, therefore he wasn't truly at his most powerful. Edo Hashirama still beat Edo Madara when they were both capped by Edo Tensei.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Originally didn't Kishi design the three sannin so that it echoed rock/paper/scissors in that each one had a specific other they could beat but not the other and thus why Jiraiya was unable to stop Orochimaru from defecting in the first place?

Oro beats Jiraiya, Jiraiya beats Tsunade, Tsunade beats Oro?

Not really the Sanin but their summons.

Snakes eat frogs, frogs eat slugs, slugs can kill snakes when eaten.

That being said Katsuyu would crush them both with her sheer size.

 

[Joni]

Got stomped and yet Oro lived and the Third got killed.....? The Third Hokage is no joke even at old age.

The havoc that the Third caused to Oro puts that in a loss-loss fight. I think a Jiraiya would have won there with his seals without him sacrificing himself.

Orochimaru may be physically weaker but his arsenal of ninjutsu is probably unparalleled.

Jiraiya is no slouch either. They both know all natures. Orochimaru gets Wood through his experimentations, which is the only one he knows that Jiraiya doesn't. They're probably up there with Sarutobi in amount of ninjutsu they know, or in any case, they're close enough for it not to matter.

Furthermore, Oro has ridiculous vitality. I mean this is the guy that was toying with 4 tails Naruto whilst being in a weakened state.

The toying with Naruto put him in that weakened state. And it is strongly suggested he barely made it out with Naruto taking down his ultimate defense. Jiraiya didn't have that ultimate defense, he took that hit and he survived. Orochimaru and Tsunade have their immortality jutsu, Jiraiya doesn't.

Naw. Kabuto had a better Edo Tensei than Part I Orochimaru when he hadn't perfected it yet. Part II Orochimaru used Edo Tensei to resurrect three Kage at their prime and Hiruzen. Plus he managed to control all save Hashirama from moving.

Indeed, I forgot that part. Still, I think credit on that goes to Kabuto in that case.

Kisames true power is another head scratcher as well. 7 gates Guy solo'd him yet he was supposed to be as strong as a Bijuu. Yet Guy seemed pretty useless in the fight with Naruto and Kakashi. Even though he held his own against B who has the second strongest Bijuu. Bleh.

I'm guessing overhyped villain. Just like the other Swordsmen of the Mist. He managed to hold his own against B because of the water.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

The havoc that the Third caused to Oro puts that in a loss-loss fight. I think a Jiraiya would have won there with his seals without him sacrificing himself.


Jiraiya is no slouch either. They both know all natures. Orochimaru gets Wood through his experimentations, which is the only one he knows that Jiraiya doesn't. They're probably up there with Sarutobi in amount of ninjutsu they know, or in any case, they're close enough for it not to matter.

The toying with Naruto put him in that weakened state. And it is strongly suggested he barely made it out with Naruto taking down his ultimate defense. Jiraiya didn't have that ultimate defense, he took that hit and he survived. Orochimaru and Tsunade have their immortality jutsu, Jiraiya doesn't.


Indeed, I forgot that part. Still, I think credit on that goes to Kabuto in that case.


I'm guessing overhyped villain. Just like the other Swordsmen of the Mist. He managed to hold his own against B because of the water.

If Oro remains alive and Sarutobi dies then its clearly Oro's win.

Its pointless comparing part 1 states to part 2 as power levels are always shown to increase. Sarutobi himself saw Orochimaru as the strongest, as the one to appoint as the next hokage. Furthermore, Jiraiya has already lost to Oro in the past even with sage mode.

Like I said, Oro is unparalleled with his ninjutsu tech. Regardless if they know all natures, the sheer amount of jutsu's Oro could use is above any character in the series. I think thats clear due to the whole plot point about Oro's existence.

You are wrong. It was time for Oro to change bodies. Barely made it out....what were you reading lol. Guy was playing with the 4 tails and just walked away realising the time to switch bodies was nearing.

The manga pretty much states Oro as being stronger. With Edo Tensei Jiraiya would get demolished.

 

[Joni]

Considering how easily many of the Edo Tensei got sealed, a seal master like Jiraiya shouldn't have a problem with them. Because in seals, it is Jiraiya that is the master of the three.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

You can't seal Edo Tensei unless you know how to use the technique, perform the Dead Demon Consuming Seal (which kills you in the process), or emotionally impact the soul to an extent that it leaves the body.

 

[Joni]

You can't seal Edo Tensei unless you know how to use the technique, perform the Dead Demon Consuming Seal (which kills you in the process), or emotionally impact the soul to an extent that it leaves the body.

The alliance managed to seal counts of them without the Dead Demon or an emotional impact. For instance, the pyramid Gaara used. This of course doesn't return them to heaven, but it is enough to take them out of the fight.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

The alliance managed to seal counts of them without the Dead Demon or an emotional impact. For instance, the pyramid Gaara used. This of course doesn't return them to heaven, but it is enough to take them out of the fight.

You think thats a viable strategy against the hokages....please

 

[Joni]

You think thats a viable strategy against the hokages....please

It worked on the Second Mizukage, the Third Raikage and the Fourth Kazekage. You could make a case for the First Hokage, but he managed to resist Orochimaru.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

It worked on the Second Mizukage, the Third Raikage and the Fourth Kazekage. You could make a case for the First Hokage, but he managed to resist Orochimaru.

He wouldn't even be able to keep up with the 2nd and 4th hokage, let alone attempt to seal the first hokage.

Those seals are not a viable strategy at all especially when you have all 4 hokage and Oro coming at you.

You don't honestly believe Jiraiya has a chance in such a fight do you?

 

[Joni]

That is only relevant if Orochimaru manages to control them. He already lost control over the First Hokage at that point after which he left them go on their own. The first is thus irrelevant. Orochimaru is screwed if he summons him. They also have their personalities so they could perfectly explain how to undo Edo Tensei. The other Edo Tensei did exactly that, even when Kabuto was steering them. They spelled out their weakness, they announced their attacks. It is vital in this case because the inventor of the Jutsu is there. The Second would be a disaster to summon in that case. The Fourth has a clear emotional trigger: Naruto. Jiraiya needs to tell him how he grew up.

So the question is, who does he summon because summoning those four at their full strength might backfire at him, how does he control them and how far does he go in controlling them? If he is actively controlling them, does that stop him from taking action? Kabuto had to seclude himself from the battlefield and Orochimaru was fairly inactive when he had the first and the second out. Does this open up Orochimaru for Genjutsu attacks from Pa and Ma? You can scream how much more powerful those Edo Tensei are than Jiraiya, but that fails to take into account Orochimaru's role in it. He still has to be powerful enough to control them. And to summon them. Jiraiya can do all his attacks without prep time, Orochimaru needs it for the Edo Tensei.

And of course, this is all after Orochimaru has been revived. We don't know what a pre-death Orochimaru was capable of.

 

[rambis]

It was never explicitely stated but it's obvious. If Nagato had taken Jiraiya seriously from the start as he did with Naruto, i.e. if he had come at Jiraiya with all Six Paths from the beginning, there is simply no way Jiraiya would've survived that onslaught. He'd be overrun and destroyed before he could even put up a fight.

Sage Mode was a niftly little surprise to Nagato but he never once doubted he would beat Jiraiya. He was that confident because he knew he was much stronger.

Kabuto copied everything. It's far more likely Part II Orochimaru had Edo Tensei perfected before he "died" (albeit unable to use) and Kabuto assimilated his remains. Kabuto also relied on Anko's CS, i.e. an additional source of Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra to bolster his control.

Edo Madara meant he wasn't alive, therefore he wasn't truly at his most powerful. Edo Hashirama still beat Edo Madara when they were both capped by Edo Tensei.

Lol dude this is mostly conjecture, not even gonna touch the hypotheticals.

But on to manga facts. Its stated very clearly that Kabuto improved on Oro's Edo Tensei and that he surpassed Oro. Kabuto and Oro studied with each other extensively so idk how you figure anybody copied anybody. But in any case Kabuto showed far more ability with Edo Tensei.

I know that Kabuto absorbed Oro but he also found Ryucci Cave himself and trained under the great snake sage. Orochimaru could never really handle senjutsu so I dont think Kabutos sage mode is because of him. I think be mostly absorbed Orochimarus abilities.

And when did Edo Hashi "beat" Edo Madara? As soon as Madara "got serious" he wrecked Hashi in like 2 moves and stole his senjutsu.

If Oro remains alive and Sarutobi dies then its clearly Oro's win.

Its pointless comparing part 1 states to part 2 as power levels are always shown to increase. Sarutobi himself saw Orochimaru as the strongest, as the one to appoint as the next hokage. Furthermore, Jiraiya has already lost to Oro in the past even with sage mode.

.

Ehh what? Hiruzen wanted Jiraya to be the next Hokage. Its stated very clearly that he always wanted Jiraya to succeed him so what are you talking about? Oro was supposed to be the childhood genius but I dont think Hiruzen ever trusted him or wanted him to be hokage.

And how do you know Jiraya had or even used Sage mode when he fought Oro? Or that he lost?

 

[brinstar]

Ehh what? Hiruzen wanted Jiraya to be the next Hokage. Its stated very clearly that he always wanted Jiraya to succeed him so what are you talking about? Oro was supposed to be the childhood genius but I dont think Hiruzen ever trusted him or wanted him to be hokage.

Hiruzen wanted Orochimaru to succeed him first but when it was clear that wasn't going to work out he moved on to Jiraiya, who turned it down to track Oro and Akatsuki. Then it fell to Minato.

 

[Frog-fu]

Lol dude this is mostly conjecture, not even gonna touch the hypotheticals.

But on to manga facts. Its stated very clearly that Kabuto improved on Oro's Edo Tensei and that he surpassed Oro. Kabuto and Oro studied with each other extensively so idk how you figure anybody copied anybody. But in any case Kabuto showed far more ability with Edo Tensei.

I know that Kabuto absorbed Oro but he also found Ryucci Cave himself and trained under the great snake sage. Orochimaru could never really handle senjutsu so I dont think Kabutos sage mode is because of him. I think be mostly absorbed Orochimarus abilities.

And when did Edo Hashi "beat" Edo Madara? As soon as Madara "got serious" he wrecked Hashi in like 2 moves and stole his senjutsu.

It's conjecture grounded in facts and based on reasonable logic drawn from context. Pain went at Naruto hard from the beginning with all Six Paths and used much more devastating jutsu. He went hard because he knew Naruto was a Sage. Against Jiraiya he was clearly too caught up in his own hype and was toying with him. He didn't get serious until Ma and Pa caught 3 of his bodies with Frog Song. Pain had no intention of allowing Naruto the same leeway.

Kabuto claimed to have surpassed Orochimaru. He may very well have considering he managed to pull off Sage Mode, something Orochimaru could not. However, on the matter of Edo Tensei specifically, Kabuto was depended on Orochimaru's chakra to bolster his control.

Kabuto summoned more people with Edo Tensei. That isn't conclusive evidence he was better at it. If you're going make that claim based on quantity, I'll simply point to Edo Hashi, Edo Tobirama, Edo Hiruzen and Edo Minato - all of whom vastly stronger and more impressive, i.e. of better quality, than all but Edo Madara (who Edo Hashi whooped) and who, save for Hashi, Orochimaru could control.

Orochimaru used senjutsu chakra for his Cursed Seals which are a form of senjutsu. He simply couldn't master Sage Mode because his body wasn't strong enough. Kabuto likely wouldn't have been able to either if not for infusing DNA of the Sound Five and Orochimaru into his own.

Edo Hashi beat Edo Madara right before Black Zetsu forced Obito to use Rinne Tensei and revive Madara, thus restoring him to his true prime. Before that, Edo Hashi and Mads were going at it with their full strength and Hashi beat him and was close to sealing him.

 

[Joni]

Tobirama and the second Raikage got left for death by the Gold and Silver brothers, summoned by Kabuto. He also summoned quite a couple of Jinchuuriki and a couple of Kages.

 

[Frog-fu]

Tobirama and the second Raikage got left for death by the Gold and Silver brothers, summoned by Kabuto. He also summoned quite a couple of Jinchuuriki and a couple of Kages.

Tobirama and the second Raikage were ambushed and injured by Kin and Gin at a formal ceremony. They didn't manage to kill him and would have likely not stood a chance in a straight up fight.

It took the Kinkaku Force, a team of twenty elite Kumo shinobi, to kill Tobirama.

The jinchūriki weren't animated by Kabuto. They were just empty husks he summoned, corpses Obito used for his version of the Six Paths.

Those couple of Kages were impressive but two got easily wrecked by Naruto and Gaara took care of two others.

I don't think there is anything to suggest Orochimaru couldn't pull off the same quantity of Edo Tensei if he were so inclined.

 

[rambis]

Tobirama and the second Raikage got left for death by the Gold and Silver brothers, summoned by Kabuto. He also summoned quite a couple of Jinchuuriki and a couple of Kages.

I don't think I can argue too much more. When you mix your own reasoning into something that isn't there, there much anybody can tell you to convince otherwise.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Ehh what? Hiruzen wanted Jiraya to be the next Hokage. Its stated very clearly that he always wanted Jiraya to succeed him so what are you talking about? Oro was supposed to be the childhood genius but I dont think Hiruzen ever trusted him or wanted him to be hokage.

And how do you know Jiraya had or even used Sage mode when he fought Oro? Or that he lost?

Incorrect. Hiruzen chose Orochimaru as his successor first.
Its clear he lost since he was unable to bring Oro back when he fought him.
I thought I saw Jiraiya with the sage eyes in the flashback but I recalled wrongly.

That is only relevant if Orochimaru manages to control them. He already lost control over the First Hokage at that point after which he left them go on their own. The first is thus irrelevant. Orochimaru is screwed if he summons him. They also have their personalities so they could perfectly explain how to undo Edo Tensei. The other Edo Tensei did exactly that, even when Kabuto was steering them. They spelled out their weakness, they announced their attacks. It is vital in this case because the inventor of the Jutsu is there. The Second would be a disaster to summon in that case. The Fourth has a clear emotional trigger: Naruto. Jiraiya needs to tell him how he grew up.

So the question is, who does he summon because summoning those four at their full strength might backfire at him, how does he control them and how far does he go in controlling them? If he is actively controlling them, does that stop him from taking action? Kabuto had to seclude himself from the battlefield and Orochimaru was fairly inactive when he had the first and the second out. Does this open up Orochimaru for Genjutsu attacks from Pa and Ma? You can scream how much more powerful those Edo Tensei are than Jiraiya, but that fails to take into account Orochimaru's role in it. He still has to be powerful enough to control them. And to summon them. Jiraiya can do all his attacks without prep time, Orochimaru needs it for the Edo Tensei.

And of course, this is all after Orochimaru has been revived. We don't know what a pre-death Orochimaru was capable of.

Orochimaru had control over the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. In fact he doesn't even need to bring them in prime state for Jiraiya to be overwhelmed if he wants even more control over the edo tenseis

Your rebuttals are becoming nonsensical. I'm sure Jiraiya is going to have time to emotionally affect 4th while 3 other kage levelled ninja are attacking him.

Prep time entirely depends on if Oro has already summoned them before or not. Its not like Oro is the only one who needs prep time as for Jiraiya to even enter SM he needs prep time.

I see Oro vs Jiraiya going either way but with Edo Tensei Jiraiya does not have a chance.

 

[rambis]

Incorrect. Hiruzen chose Orochimaru as his successor first.
Its clear he lost since he was unable to bring Oro back when he fought him.
I thought I saw Jiraiya with the sage eyes in the flashback but I recalled wrongly.



Orochimaru had control over the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. In fact he doesn't even need to bring them in prime state for Jiraiya to be overwhelmed if he wants even more control over the edo tenseis

Your rebuttals are becoming nonsensical. I'm sure Jiraiya is going to have time to emotionally affect 4th while 3 other kage levelled ninja are attacking him.

Prep time entirely depends on if Oro has already summoned them before or not. Its not like Oro is the only one who needs prep time as for Jiraiya to even enter SM he needs prep time.

I see Oro vs Jiraiya going either way but with Edo Tensei Jiraiya does not have a chance.

Reference please?

Also just because he didnt bring Oro back doesn't mean he lost. It just means that he wasnt strong enough to force him back to the village without killing him.

 

[Frog-fu]

Orochimaru had control over the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. In fact he doesn't even need to bring them in prime state for Jiraiya to be overwhelmed if he wants even more control over the edo tenseis

Your rebuttals are becoming nonsensical. I'm sure Jiraiya is going to have time to emotionally affect 4th while 3 other kage levelled ninja are attacking him.

Prep time entirely depends on if Oro has already summoned them before or not. Its not like Oro is the only one who needs prep time as for Jiraiya to even enter SM he needs prep time.

I see Oro vs Jiraiya going either way but with Edo Tensei Jiraiya does not have a chance.

Orochimaru needs prep time for Edo Tensei. Even if he comes prepared with human sacrifices, the sacrificial corpses can still be destroyed if Jiraiya destoys the coffins like Hiruzen did.

You also overlook Frog Song, which is a jutsu performed by Ma and Pa independently. It's so OP that it nullifies Edo Tensei and its user.

Jiraiya has too much versatility going for him. He'd beat Orochimaru more times than not.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Reference please?

Also just because he didnt bring Oro back doesn't mean he lost. It just means that he wasnt strong enough to force him back to the village without killing him.

Thats just confirming what I said. Third wanted Oro to be 4th, however noticed the malice in him. Appointed MInato as the 4th. Oro the leaves the village. Minato dies. Jiraiya is the candidate for 5th.

Orochimaru needs prep time for Edo Tensei. Even if he comes prepared with human sacrifices, the sacrificial corpses can still be destroyed if Jiraiya destoys the coffins like Hiruzen did.

You also overlook Frog Song, which is a jutsu performed by Ma and Pa independently. It's so OP that it nullifies Edo Tensei and its user.

Jiraiya has too much versatility going for him. He'd beat Orochimaru more times than not.

You overlook the fact that you need prep time for Frog Song as well. Hiruzen never destroyed the coffins. He planned to do something about the third one but the summoning failed. Furthermore, Oro summoned the first two pretty quickly.

 

[rambis]

Thats just confirming what I said. Third wanted Oro to be 4th, however noticed the malice in him. Appointed MInato as the 4th. Oro the leaves the village. Minato dies. Jiraiya is the candidate for 5th.

[IM]http://s18.postimg.org/pgy80tcnd/Screen_Shot_2015_09_11_at_11_40_18.jpg[/IMG]
.

It literally sad the opposite of what you said. "The third always wanted you to suceeed him."

And what you said says nothing about Oro being the 4th. It was said that the third had high hopes for Oro but he found out very early after his parents died that he wasn't fit. That full scan btw dont know why you cut it.

 

[Frog-fu]

You overlook the fact that you need prep time for Frog Song as well. Hiruzen never destroyed the coffins. He planned to do something about the third one but the summoning failed. Furthermore, Oro summoned the first two pretty quickly.

There is no prep time for the jutsu itself and it only takes seconds to take effect. Jiraiya is free to use his considerable arsenal of jutsu to his advantage in those few seconds.

If Orochimaru summons the Edo Tensei for the first time, he still needs to stick a kunai with his controlling tags in them, which buys Ma and Pa a second or two on top of whatever Jiraiya manages to do keep Orochimaru on his toes.

My mistake on the Hiruzen bit, but even if the Edo Tensei are animated, Frog Song is still too OP. They will get caught in the genjutsu and sealed by clones.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

It literally sad the opposite of what you said. "The third always wanted you to suceeed him."

And what you said says nothing about Oro being the 4th. It was said that the third had high hopes for Oro but he found out very early after his parents died that he wasn't fit. That full scan btw dont know why you cut it.

Are you serious? I wonder who would know the Third hokage's choice......the third Hokage himself or Tsunade.

The panel says it right there in black and white......"He was the one to carry on my will and strength".

I think its pretty clear who Hiruzen wanted to succeed him.

There is no prep time for the jutsu itself and it only takes seconds to take effect. Jiraiya is free to use his considerable arsenal of jutsu to his advantage in those few seconds.

If Orochimaru summons the Edo Tensei for the first time, he still needs to stick a kunai with his controlling tags in them, which buys Ma and Pa a second or two on top of whatever Jiraiya manages to do keep Orochimaru on his toes.

My mistake on the Hiruzen bit, but even if the Edo Tensei are animated, Frog Song is still too OP. They will get caught in the genjutsu and sealed by clones.

Ridiculous assertion. Perhaps your memory is hazy. It takes time for Ma and Pa to sync their voices (said by the frogs themselves), Jiraiya has to buy time ( it took 7 pages of combat before the they could duet lol) and in addition it tells the opponent where they are.

Frog Song is hardly OP. It uses sound waves and will only effect you if you hear said waves. Furthermore Ma and Pa were struggling after using it once. There are numerous ways one could deceive the user, or simply evade the sound waves.

In comparison to genjutsu techniques that Itachi can use simply by looking at his eyes....it ain't OP.

 

[rambis]

Are you serious? I wonder who would know the Third hokage's choice......the third Hokage himself or Tsunade.

The panel says it right there in black and white......"He was the one to carry on my will and strength".

I think its pretty clear who Hiruzen wanted to succeed him.



Ridiculous assertion. Perhaps your memory is hazy. It takes time for Ma and Pa to sync their voices (said by the frogs themselves), Jiraiya has to buy time ( it took 7 pages of combat before the they could duet lol) and in addition it tells the opponent where they are.

Frog Song is hardly OP. It uses sound waves and will only effect you if you hear said waves. Furthermore Ma and Pa were struggling after using it once. There are numerous ways one could deceive the user, or simply evade the sound waves.

In comparison to genjutsu techniques that Itachi can use simply by looking at his eyes....it ain't OP.

Uh no, Kishi the author that writes the story and uses his characters to convey his world knows lol. Sometimes I think you all go too deep into the rabbit hole.

 

[Frog-fu]

Ridiculous assertion. Perhaps your memory is hazy. It takes time for Ma and Pa to sync their voices (said by the frogs themselves), Jiraiya has to buy time ( it took 7 pages of combat before the they could duet lol) and in addition it tells the opponent where they are.

Frog Song is hardly OP. It uses sound waves and will only effect you if you hear said waves. Furthermore Ma and Pa were struggling after using it once. There are numerous ways one could deceive the user, or simply evade the sound waves.

In comparison to genjutsu techniques that Itachi can use simply by looking at his eyes....it ain't OP.

Not at all. Either you don't understand what prep time means or take the words too literal.

Prep time is the step necessary and time needed to pull off the jutsu, e.g. Orochimaru needs to prepare sacrifices and kunai with his seal to control. There is no prep time for Frog Song. Ma and Pa just show up and do it. It takes effect in just a few seconds. You should be able to tell since not much time at all passes in those 7 pages.

Frog Song is OP because it's a super powerful auditory genjutsu powered by senjutsu. It was powerful enough to stop Pain dead in his tracks and allow Jiraiya to take his time pin down the Paths down with the Stone Swords. Pain had no way of negating that. He only struck back when Jiraiya thought he had won and the Frog Song stopped.

There are ways to avoid it but if Pain couldn't figure out a way I wouldn't presume that to be an easy task.

Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu wouldn't have worked on Pain. He would've dispelled that with ease, he is too powerful. Nothing short of Tsukuyomi would be enough, and even then it'd be wasted on the Six Paths that share their eyevision and can jutsu avoid meeting his eyes.

Tsukuyomi > Frog Song > Sharingan Genjutsu

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Uh no, Kishi the author that writes the story and uses his characters to convey his world knows lol. Sometimes I think you all go too deep into the rabbit hole.

What do you mean no?
Can you not accept the Third wanting Oro being his successor over Jiraiya?

Not at all. Either you don't understand what prep time means or take the words too literal.

Prep time is the step necessary and time needed to pull off the jutsu, e.g. Orochimaru needs to prepare sacrifices and kunai with his seal to control. There is no prep time for Frog Song. Ma and Pa just show up and do it. It takes effect in just a few seconds. You should be able to tell since not much time at all passes in those 7 pages.

Frog Song is OP because it's a super powerful auditory genjutsu powered by senjutsu. It was powerful enough to stop Pain dead in his tracks and allow Jiraiya to take his time pin down the Paths down with the Stone Swords. Pain had no way of negating that. He only struck back when Jiraiya thought he had won and the Frog Song stopped.

There are ways to avoid it but if Pain couldn't figure out a way I wouldn't presume that to be an easy task.

Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu wouldn't have worked on Pain. He would've dispelled that with ease, he is too powerful. Nothing short of Tsukuyomi would be enough, and even then it'd be wasted on the Six Paths that share their eyevision and can jutsu avoid meeting his eyes.

Tsukuyomi > Frog Song > Sharingan Genjutsu

Well yes, I'm using it literally to point out when a jutsu is pointed out to need notable preparation time. Both frogs take notable time to perform the jutsu.

I guess we have different meanings to the word OP. While once inflicted frog song is a guaranteed kill, it requires time to to produce, both frogs must not be hurt, it tells the enemy where the user is and can not be repeated quickly. Furthermore the range is limited.

Pain got caught up in it because he did not think things through. Rushing towards Jiraiya at the first sound and not even thinking Jiraiya was capable of such a technique made him unaware of what was really happening. Quite funny in retrospect as I wonder why he thought the frogs were singing.

One of the OP techniques I was referring to was Tsukuyomi so I agree to the expression.

 

[Tizoc]

From Right to Left-

Just saw it now and apologies if it was already posted.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

From Right to Left-

Just saw it now and apologies if it was already posted.

CPR ain't a kiss but loooool

 

[SolVanderlyn]

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

This is now the Naruto meme thread:

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

When will the Boruto movie be out for purchase or something in english subs?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

When will the Boruto movie be out for purchase or something in english subs?

9 months time I guess.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

9 months time I guess.

-_-

 

[Icyflamez96]

So... Anything in the near future worth being anticipated for in regards to Naruto? Seems like no since this place is kinda dead.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

So... Anything in the near future worth being anticipated for in regards to Naruto? Seems like no since this place is kinda dead.

Ninja Storm 4... five months from now

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

So... Anything in the near future worth being anticipated for in regards to Naruto? Seems like no since this place is kinda dead.

SP filler.
I guess we can look forward to Kishi at NYCC answering questions and stuff.

 

[aly]

Here's a question: Are those novels like the recent Itachi one considered canon?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Here's a question: Are those novels like the recent Itachi one considered canon?

No. Novels aren't considered canon.

I don't really think Itachi needed a novel either, considering how much is shown of him in the manga.

 

[ghstwrld]

but didn't Kishi and co release an official timeline and everything, chronologizing the latest light novels, movies and chapters from the comics?

 

[Frog-fu]

Here's a question: Are those novels like the recent Itachi one considered canon?

I believe so.

It is confirmed that the first two instalments of this series will be titled Itachi Shinden and Sasuke Shinden, while Itachi Shinden will have two novels.

Possessing eyes that see the truth clearly, they are brothers who are at the threshold between hope and despair. These are stories that will explain Itachi's past and Sasuke's future.

Itachi Shinden will consist of two novels: The first being the Book of Bright Light (光明篇, Kōmyō-hen), which was released on September 4, 2015. The second novel, the Book of Dark Night (暗夜篇, An'ya-hen), will be released on October 2, 2015.

Sasuke Shinden will consist of only one novel, the Book of Sunrise (来光篇, Raikō-hen) which will be released on November 4, 2015.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

but didn't Kishi and co release an official timeline and everything, chronologizing the latest light novels, movies and chapters from the comics?

No, that was just Shueisha for the novels.

Canon timeline :

 

[aly]

No. Novels aren't considered canon.

I don't really think Itachi needed a novel either, considering how much is shown of him in the manga.

I believe so.

I really hope they aren't, mostly because I feel like there is a thing such as too much info. For example, I agree that Itachi did'nt need a novel since we got so much of him in the manga and honestly it was enough without adding any info about him as a small child. Now if there was a Tenten or Kiba novel I could get behind that.

 

[Sai]

Uh, a bunch of weird inconsistencies were pointed out from the first few novels, if I remember correctly.

Don't know what the official word is from Kishimoto or Shueisha, but I see the novels as more like officially sanctioned fan-fiction, than canon. Maybe take the core concept of the novels as legit, but the fluff around it with a grain of salt.