I get the sentiment, but MVP isn't an aesthetic award. Take Westbrook off the Thunder or Harden off the Rockets and both teams are a dumpster fire. Take KD off the Dubs and they are a 65 win team. Even the Cavs are still probably a mid-tier East seed without LeBron. If Harden and/or Westbrook singlehandedly drag bad teams to 50 or so wins in the West, no matter how ugly it may appear at times, then they deserve strong consideration.
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NBA 2016-2017 Season |OT| What do the Liberty Bell and Ben Simmons have in Common?
- Thread starter Jarate
- Start date
I get the sentiment, but MVP isn't an aesthetic award. Take Westbrook off the Thunder or Harden off the Rockets and both teams are a dumpster fire. Take KD off the Dubs and they are a 65 win team. Even the Cavs are still probably a mid-tier East seed without LeBron. If Harden and/or Westbrook singlehandedly drag bad teams to 50 or so wins in the West, no matter how ugly it may appear at times, then they deserve strong consideration.
Maybe, but I think it is self-defeating in the end. There is no chance of long term ultimate success with that low efficiency style of play. I think a lot of players could put up incredible numbers if they decided to be high usage ball-stoppers and any of those teams would be self-limiting (we have seen this for years with Melo?). How many points would Curry put up if he just pulled up from 30-35' on 26 shots? He could probably make 35% (at least) which is 27 points right there without adding in free throws. Yeah, that would be stupid and harmful to the team but LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS! That is what I feel we get from where Harden and Westbrook are at the moment.
I think the big difference between this and recent Melo or this and mid-2000's Kobe is that these teams actually are winning noticeably more than they are losing. Is it a championship recipe? God no. Are Westbrook or Harden the guys I would take to build a franchise over a LeBron or a Steph or a KD or a Kawhi? Of course not. But there is something impressive about it in the same way that 2001 Iverson was impressive even if you probably could never win a championship with Iverson on your team. Of course it's all contingent on the Rockets/Thunder continuing to win. Westbrook could average 40/12/12 and he's not contending for MVP on a 30 win club.
I understand the argument but it breaks down if you look at other players that could put up similar numbers who aren't because it isn't as good for their team. For example, Durant could probably do 35/10/10 if that was important to him and the Warriors would win 5 less games (so still more than the Thunder). Meanwhile, Westbrook could do similarly but ARGUABLY (as his team shoots a higher percentage than he does) allow his team to win 5 more games than they would without him. Do we reward someone just because their team isn't as good so they can justify ball-hoggery? I'm not a fan of that idea but it definitely seems to not bother the media.
The thing is though there aren't actually all that many other players that could put up similar numbers on a winning team and all of them are pretty much permanent MVP fixtures. The only current superstar who has proven he can do the dragging bad teams to the playoffs while putting up video game numbers thing is LeBron. Could KD do it? Probably. Could Steph or Kawhi do it? I'm genuinely not sure, and I say that as someone who would take either in a draft over Westbrook without a second thought. Like, Anthony Davis is still on the short list of NBA players I would choose to build a franchise around at this moment in time and the Pels are still one of the worst teams in the league even as he is putting up numbers every bit as individually impressive as Russ or Harden.
I don't think Harden's stats or game are to the detriment of the Rockets, he just plays in a way, well a really crappy way. Westbrook is the same Westbrook, except he figured out that if he gets a lot of defensive rebounds and makes sure to get 10 assists he's going to generate a lot of attention. Yea, the Thunder would be nowhere without him, but they're built a certain way. You exchange Russ for Paul, for example, and you wouldn't have gaudy stats, but I wonder what team would play better. Wins above Chris Paul? That's why I always go for the best player, forget Goldilocks scenarios and who is the media's darling.
What a load of shit this line of thinking is. The media rewards winning. It's how Curry won his first MVP over Harden, despite playing with another All-Star and two All-Defense players.
Nobody talks about the numbers Cousins or Davis or Antetokounmpo or the TWolves' Big 3 put up this season because they don't win. They talk about Westbrook's 7 straight triple-doubles because his team has gone 6-1. The argument you're suggesting couldn't be fucking made, because his team wouldn't have been in a position to win if he didn't play (they were down 13 before he came back into the game in the 4th. If you actually watched the fucking game instead of looking at FG% you would have fucking known this).
As much as this may come as a shock to you, there are other things involved in the game besides shooting the ball. I mean, do you really think Steven Adams shoots 88% from the field if Westbrook isn't attracting defenders and feeding him the ball?
But if we're gonna dismiss legitimacy of MVP candidates based on a cherry-picked game, let me make a counterargument at your rudimentary level.
Durant went 1 of 7 in overtime. By your logic, the Dubs would've won that game if Thompson and Durant didn't hog the ball and deferred to Iguodala and McAdoo. Some fucking artistry that game was.
Second best efficiency in the league without a super team. Yep, seems pretty low percentage to me. I swear, if Dubs fans spent less time wanking over their franchise, and spent more time watching basketball, they wouldn't seem like such clueless morons.
Could you be anymore entitled with your 'Oh woe is me, Durant and Curry aren't being considered for MVP as much as they should because they decided to form a super team' schtick? The point of what Westbrook and Harden are doing isn't their numbers. Harden had similar numbers last year and nobody gave a shit about him. The point is that despite everybody thinking they would fall after the offseasons they had, they got better and their teams are winning. You acting like Durant or Curry could do what these guys are doing simply by upping their usage is half of it. The other half is having no All-Stars around you. Do you think Durant gets to have his most efficient season of his career if Curry and Thompson aren't there to get defenses off him? Harden and Westbrook (particularly Russell) don't have that luxury. Opposing teams focus their gameplans around them, send their double and triple-teams to them. When you've got nobody to defer to in that situation, let me know how well Durant or Curry would do with their efficiency and turnovers then.
Who would you have in your current Top 5, if you don't mind me asking?
TheSadRanger
Banned
Did you guys even watch the last sequence of events Friday night during the OKC vs Hou game?
It was a total shit show of Harden driving to the lane getting the ball swatted out of his hands while continuing to flail his arms wildly followed by Westbrook stealing a ball from Westbrook to airball a three.
Shit was ridiculous.
It was a total shit show of Harden driving to the lane getting the ball swatted out of his hands while continuing to flail his arms wildly followed by Westbrook stealing a ball from Westbrook to airball a three.
Shit was ridiculous.
TheSadRanger
Banned
Wrong thread, read the thread of the game you think I'm talking about. It's nothing but posts of people getting stuck.
That sequence was bad, that can't be argued. Being judged solely on this game, in a season a quarter of the way through (or specifically ~1.5 minutes of >800 minutes played) is the thing that doesn't make sense. Breaking news, players have off games, especially against tough competition. Harden and Westbrook aren't impervious to that, and neither is anybody on the Warriors.
Lebron
Durant
Curry
Davis
Paul
Not in order, but that would probably be my top 5. It's late though, so I may not be thinking straight.
I would take Kawhi Leonard over Chris Paul (and Chris Paul is an absolutely fantastic player) any day of the week.
I would say top 10 current NBA players I think are:
1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Steph Curry
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Chris Paul
6. Anthony Davis
7. Russell Westbrook
8. James Harden
9. DeMarcus Cousins
10. Paul George
Giannis Antetokounmpo is close but just not ready to see him as top 10 yet.
TBH, Curry isn't playing well by his standards so mostly using Durant/Curry as counter-examples to rewarding high usage rate players and not as "THIS PLAYER DESERVES MVP!". Green has been the Warriors most consistently best player this year but I didn't use him because he couldn't generate huge numbers on his own like Durant and Curry could.
While last night's game was just a prime example of the boring shitshow of two players taking turns going 1v1 (I guess there is drama in seeing which 30% shot would go in), their season-jlong %s are really low as well...well under their teams' averages. Yes, they enable their teammates to get better shots but maybe do that more and shoot less. Or maybe, I dunno, how about ball movement? I have no doubt that if the Warriors ISO'd Durant every single possession his stats would be astronomical...I also just don't find that very impressive.
Dude. It is the East...they would definitely be a mid-tier playoff team. Stop with the narrative of "look where they were before he came back!". This is a totally different team at this point.
Kyrie has improved a TOOOOOON over the last 2 years. He is a legitimate all-star. He & Love would carry the team into a mid-tier 4-6 seed slot.
A Lebron-less Cavs would be in the middle of the play-off pack of the East with Boston, Charlotte, & Detroit behind Toronto.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Drummond is such a beast.. sometimes
It's a shame because his horrible consistency is the one thing that could push the Pistons to become competitive vs the Cavs in the East. You know the Raptors will get rolled as usual.True Savior
Member
Playoffs time he can be as good as anybody. But yeah, as a talent to carry a team in 82 games he is below several players.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Curry is definitely better than KD. KD is having a better year and you can still tell the difference in the team when one of them is in is far bigger with Steph.
Leonard is overrated. His defense has fallen off big time this year, he's 2-3FGA+ and all his % are noticeably down. The main reason he's getting 3ppg+ is he's getting to the line more than last year. Teams have finally started taking him seriously as an offensive threat (like every other offensive star) after his dominant 3 week start, and he hasn't responded well at all. He's not good enough to be in the same 2-way street like Bron or MJ who can take you out defensively and dominate you offensively. His offensive game is on par with a ton of players in the league, it's nothing special.
I'd give more credit to WB and Harden though. Yeah WB stat pads, shoots like shit and both are TO machines, but they're doing some pretty fantastic things. Also unlike AD, they're helping their team win a lot more than Trashlicans.
This means 'counter-examples' and not 'this player deserves MVP'. Right. Keep moving those goalposts.
For a guy who's playing below his standards, and sharing the same court as Durant, Thompson and consistently best player Green, a usage percentage of 28.2 definitely sounds astronomically lower than 33.9. In the starting lineup, Harden's FG% is only lower than Capela's (who has the 3rd highest FG% in the league). I mean, what are stats when I can just pull nonsense outta my ass, am I right?
It's damned if you, damned if you don't. They shoot, you shit on them for their FG%, they try to make the pass, and you bring up their turnover numbers. They're number 1 and 2 in APG. Harden has made 15 or more assists in a quarter of the games he's played this season. More players on Houston's roster are averaging double-digit points than Golden State's, but you keep persisting with this post-truth bullshit that all he does is play iso, 1-on-1 basketball.
More importantly you're backtracking from the absolute bullshit point you initially made (and conveniently ignored from my post):
Harden averaged 29 points, 6.1 rebounds, 7.5 assists last season and failed to make an All-NBA team (an accolade voted by the media, in case you hadn't realised).
Harden this season is averaging 28.2 points, 7.6 rebounds, 11.4 assists and you wonder why the media are 'rewarding' him. I'll give you a clue.
It isn't because he's scoring less or grabbing 1.5 more rebounds.
Yeah, I'm just not going to respond to posts with so much anger and hostility. You are free to believe what you'd like.
Make shit posts, people will call you out on it. Pretty simple, really.
All you'd have to is acknowledge your ignorance and not double down on your stupidity. Or maybe, I dunno, how about a little bit of research?
You didn't call anyone out. I backed up my points. This was just a discussion about the context in which we should view counting stats and I was within the scope of recent assertions that Harden and Westbrook should be clear MVP frontrunners. I could go on but it isn't worth it with someone spewing so much vitriol in a conversation about basketball.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
thehypocrite
Member
Harden & WB are doing incredible work night in night out. I really think that criticism of their performance as a whole is unwarranted. Look at their team records in contrast to expectations. They have exceeded team and individual expectations.
TheSadRanger
Banned
The only that bums me out more by the mavs tanking was watching the PHX vs Lakers game last night and seeing that Tyson still has some left in the tank. ;_;
I would take current Tyson Chandler over Bogut in a heart beat.
I would take current Tyson Chandler over Bogut in a heart beat.
Current top 5 (how they are playing this year) in on particular order:
KD
Harden
LeBron
Green
AD
My next 5 (again no particular order):
Kawhi
Westbrook
Curry
George
Kyrie
I really want to be a fan of Harden. He is so skilled and so smart but his intelligence and how he applies it makes his game hard to watch. As long as refs let him jump sideways into players to get foul calls on drives to the basket he should keep doing it. That doesn't mean it is the kind of basketball I turn on the tv for.
I've been calling out your points for the past half page, you just choose to ignore them because they show you're objectively wrong. You've backed them up with what, exactly? Snarky remarks about play style, incorrect statistics and hypotheticals. Now somebody's giving you snark back and now you wanna take your ball and go home?
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Start Penny Jr and Baze and have Thabo come off the bench?
Then again he picked T man to start before Penny Jr.
TheSadRanger
Banned
Cavs team video
It's a step in the right direction since the vid they put out a few years ago promoting domestic violence.
It's a step in the right direction since the vid they put out a few years ago promoting domestic violence.
Lionel Richie
Member
Chandler is a sleeper trade candidate. I'd be pretty okay with him on the Celtics as well.
I'm fully willing to discuss specifics but not with people who can't contain their anger over something so inconsequential. Personal put-downs? Uh ok...move along.
Personal put downs? I don't attack the man, I pick apart their ideas and their behaviours. Differing points are fine, and discourse using logic and facts is what forums should be for.
Cherry picking parts of posts you want to respond to, ignoring the parts you can't rebut, stating incorrect information as fact and moving goalposts are behaviours you've repeatedly demonstrated, and behaviours that should be discouraged (regardless of topic). If you can't see that you've been doing it, or that sort of behaviour is wrong, then I don't really know what to say. There's no point to this, I'm done.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Westbrook had this on him the entire game
Harden himself had Roberson on him, but barring the last few minutes when he far too often takes over the offense and ISOs, he uses those opportunities to give his teammates good shots.
Also don't know why people keep acting as if the Rockets are shit without Harden. Eric Gordon is a top 6MOTY contender, we've been 10-2 since Beverley came back, Capela has become an NBA-worthy starting center, Ariza still plays consistently well, especially now that he isn't so gassed, Dekker has been a surprise off the bench. Ryan Anderson has been occasionally streaky, but he shoots the 3 and spaces the court really well for us. Montrezl Harell is developing and Nene is surprisingly good on limited minutes.
I'd only really put the Warriors, Spurs, and Cavs definitively above us. Clippers, a healthy Jazz, and Raptors would probably be on the same level. Rockets may not have a 2nd star, but almost all of our rotation can score 10-20 points in a game. That "fucked around and got a triple double" has happened multiple times this season when Harden spends most of the game facilitating and letting the bench and other starters score before scoring a ton in the 4th quarter when we're solidly up (specifically thinking of the home game against the Jazz)
If you seriously want to bring Durant up, why not compare the portion of the 2014-2015 season when Westbrook was injured and Durant played to the rest of that 2014 season?
Harden himself had Roberson on him, but barring the last few minutes when he far too often takes over the offense and ISOs, he uses those opportunities to give his teammates good shots.
Also don't know why people keep acting as if the Rockets are shit without Harden. Eric Gordon is a top 6MOTY contender, we've been 10-2 since Beverley came back, Capela has become an NBA-worthy starting center, Ariza still plays consistently well, especially now that he isn't so gassed, Dekker has been a surprise off the bench. Ryan Anderson has been occasionally streaky, but he shoots the 3 and spaces the court really well for us. Montrezl Harell is developing and Nene is surprisingly good on limited minutes.
I'd only really put the Warriors, Spurs, and Cavs definitively above us. Clippers, a healthy Jazz, and Raptors would probably be on the same level. Rockets may not have a 2nd star, but almost all of our rotation can score 10-20 points in a game. That "fucked around and got a triple double" has happened multiple times this season when Harden spends most of the game facilitating and letting the bench and other starters score before scoring a ton in the 4th quarter when we're solidly up (specifically thinking of the home game against the Jazz)
If you seriously want to bring Durant up, why not compare the portion of the 2014-2015 season when Westbrook was injured and Durant played to the rest of that 2014 season?
Hyperactivity
Banned
https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-assists-to-turnover-ratio/2016/
Harden and Westbrook have the same assist to turnover ratio as Curry
Harden and Westbrook have the same assist to turnover ratio as Curry
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Hope that Harden wins the MVP. Finally put to rest the debate of the best basketball player to come out of the Arizona college scene. Fuck the Arizona Wildcats forever.
Eh, Luke Walton isn't being dethroned any time soon for that.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
No way. Luke Walton's career with the school that shall not be named was OK. Then he was a role player at best. Formidable? Yeah, but nothing to shout about. Harden has proven he's a near Super Star.
Steve Kerr had a better career than Walton, but that's also because he played with Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan. Dude's career is nothing without a super star to rely on.
True Savior
Member
Yeah, I'm really happy D'Antoni found a team that can play his game. I think the Rockets are definitely a big conference finals contender. Spurs, albeit the record have been playing kinda bad and the Clippers are a bizarre team.
That was a joke breh lol
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Well I'll give any chance to shit on the wildcats, so thanks!
Amazing how snobby Tucson is, considering how real and down to Earth the city claims itself to be.
Crimson_Gold
Member
Harden for MVP. Rockets for champs. This for Yao. This is for the Dream. Mad Max, where you at? Clyde gonna glide.
I'm so happy the Rockets are doing well this year. Hoping for a nice playoff run
I'm so happy the Rockets are doing well this year. Hoping for a nice playoff run