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NBA 2016-2017 Season |OT| What do the Liberty Bell and Ben Simmons have in Common?

M

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Tom Penny said:
Yep. Ainge probably wants the pick so he doesn't have to max a one way playing midget and get our future PG..IT is great at what he does but reality is once he loses a step he literally is a bench scorer making 30 million.. Anybody with eyes knows this.
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Damn I thought you were all about IT. I've been all about IT being a flawed star for a while now, but he's won me over a bit with his magic this season. Still he's not a max player given his literal dead last ranking on DWS and every other defensive statistic.

I don't think it's just that. I don't know why people are so quick to blow this group up when it's just not there yet. WOOO we landed jimmy butler losing possible future superstars and a big part of what makes this team good enough for 2nd anyways... where would that get us? Slightly better overall? Maybe who knows, because when you essentially strip the entire team you're not sure what's going to happen. I know one thing for sure, Butler, IT, and Horford aren't winning you dick. I'm not even sure that gets you past the wizards team the way they're playing.
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
That deal for Butler didn't work because he just isn't that good. Not sure if it will surface what options we may have had, if any for him.

You can't do that deal for George either.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
Tom Penny said:
Yep. Ainge probably wants the pick so he doesn't have to max a one way playing midget and get our future PG..IT is great at what he does but reality is once he loses a step he literally is a bench scorer making 30 million.. Anybody with eyes knows this.
Click to expand...

IT is 28 not 32. He's still in his prime. And if you watched any of the Celtics games you see how valuable he is to the team.He's literally the reason we win every close game and why we 2nd in the East. Calling him a midget is just disrespectful.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
msdstc said:
Damn I thought you were all about IT. I've been all about IT being a flawed star for a while now, but he's won me over a bit with his magic this season. Still he's not a max player given his literal dead last ranking on DWS and every other defensive statistic.

I don't think it's just that. I don't know why people are so quick to blow this group up when it's just not there yet. WOOO we landed jimmy butler losing possible future superstars and a big part of what makes this team good enough for 2nd anyways... where would that get us? Slightly better overall? Maybe who knows, because when you essentially strip the entire team you're not sure what's going to happen. I know one thing for sure, Butler, IT, and Horford aren't winning you dick. I'm not even sure that gets you past the wizards team the way they're playing.
Click to expand...

You cant go just by DWC, because of course the teams defense is going to go up when you have Marcus Smart, an elite defender or Terry Rozier a solid bigger bodied defender, taking your place. People need to stop just looking at stat sheets/analytics and watch the games.

IT is a fine defender when its someone that is 6-6'2 ft. Where he gets killed is on the pick and roll switches that force him to defend someone that is 6'5 and up. Its not like he doesn't try (i.e Harden, Kyrie, Dirk, Carmelo, Steph).

He actually has a good idea of how to defend. His height just makes it more difficult against any position from 2-4.
 
M

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Domcorleone said:
You cant go just by DWC, because of course the teams defense is going to go up when you have Marcus Smart, an elite defender or Terry Rozier a solid bigger bodied defender, taking your place. People need to stop just looking at stat sheets/analytics and watch the games.

IT is a fine defender when its someone that is 6-6'2 ft. Where he gets killed is on the pick and roll switches that force him to defend someone that is 6'5 and up. Its not like he doesn't try (i.e Harden, Kyrie, Dirk, Carmelo, Steph).

He actually has a good idea of how to defend. His height just makes it more difficult against any position from 2-4.
Click to expand...

LOL k. I've been lucky to see just about every minute of every game this season. I've seen IT get absolutely dusted to the rim night in and night out. What's especially bad about this is we don't have a rim protector, or hell even a rebounder so when the defense collapses in the o-rebs go through the roof. I've seen the forced switches the celts work their tails off trying to cover up, like when IT gets posted up on, or even when dirk got a few easy buckets in the 4th by forcing the mismatch. Mismatches happen, it's your responsibility to prevent them... IT is a walking mismatch night in and night out. He's ranked dead last. It's not a matter of saying "oh well of course the numbers look bad compared to smart"... it's a matter of saying holy shit he's literally dead last out of every single player in the league by just about every metric including players who get only a handful of minutes all season.

Also LOL at saying big bodied defender when mentioning Rozier. Rozier is tiny and btw he's garbage.
 
J

Jarate

Banned
IT is not a one way player. He's a flawed player due to his height, but that isn't everything.

His offensive skillset is still tremendous and he is still really the only consistent iso scorer on that team as well. IDK why some Celtics fans don't like him. He's also the emotional leader of the team as well.

The good thing about Fultz is he can basically fit into any type of team style. He can be a primary ball handler, or be an off ball shooter. He's that talented.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
Sanjuro said:
I don't. Not when he would be rental player. If they could work that out and maybe swap out one of the 4 players for another then it would make a ton of sense.
Click to expand...

That's a fair point. However, I'm confident that PG would stay once he played with us. No one ever wants to come to Boston but once they play for us they want to stay. I think if we made it to the ECF with him, he would be more inclined to stay as well.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
Jarate said:
IT is not a one way player. He's a flawed player due to his height, but that isn't everything.

His offensive skillset is still tremendous and he is still really the only consistent iso scorer on that team as well. IDK why some Celtics fans don't like him. He's also the emotional leader of the team as well.

The good thing about Fultz is he can basically fit into any type of team style. He can be a primary ball handler, or be an off ball shooter. He's that talented.
Click to expand...

Agreed. He is a extremely crafty player who can score in bunches, is efficient, and very clutch in the 4th quarter. He is willing and able to play off the ball as well (as evidenced when Smart plays the point). Like any player, he needs the right pieces around him to make him even more deadly (i.e Horford).

I'd like to keep IT, Smart and Brown. Everyone else can be moved imo.
 
J

Jarate

Banned
There's also this weird thing where everyone is convinced PG would've left

first, every agent worth his salt will always use LA as a negotiating tactic. PG would be loosing money by not resigning with the team. And who the fuck would want to play with LA right now?

PG isn't a free agent this season either, he's a free agent in 2018. So you get a year and a half of him as well.
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
Jarate said:
There's also this weird thing where everyone is convinced PG would've left

first, every agent worth his salt will always use LA as a negotiating tactic. PG would be loosing money by not resigning with the team. And who the fuck would want to play with LA right now?

PG isn't a free agent this season either, he's a free agent in 2018. So you get a year and a half of him as well.
Click to expand...

It's not just LA, he is a free agent. He could end up going anywhere.

Trading a top five pick and two players with possible high ceilings for a rental doesn't make sense.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
msdstc said:
LOL k. I've been lucky to see just about every minute of every game this season. I've seen IT get absolutely dusted to the rim night in and night out. What's especially bad about this is we don't have a rim protector, or hell even a rebounder so when the defense collapses in the o-rebs go through the roof. I've seen the forced switches the celts work their tails off trying to cover up, like when IT gets posted up on, or even when dirk got a few easy buckets in the 4th by forcing the mismatch. Mismatches happen, it's your responsibility to prevent them... IT is a walking mismatch night in and night out. He's ranked dead last. It's not a matter of saying "oh well of course the numbers look bad compared to smart"... it's a matter of saying holy shit he's literally dead last out of every single player in the league by just about every metric including players who get only a handful of minutes all season.

Also LOL at saying big bodied defender when mentioning Rozier. Rozier is tiny and btw he's garbage.
Click to expand...

You cant always prevent mismatches, thats the whole point of scheming is to create them. Mismatches happen in every game in basketball, thats what teams try to exploit, especially in the low post. Also according to the bleacher report (since you like stats) Kyrie is actually behind IT (specifically in 4th quarter defense). So hes not objectively the worse.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
Bread said:
Nah man I just had no idea you watched the games instead of posting, that's wicked.
Click to expand...

Well the fact that my statement has you all in your feelings means you must not be watching the games but instead casually checking out the box score...

I could be wrong though and if I am I apologize.
 
J

Jarate

Banned
Sanjuro said:
It's not just LA, he is a free agent. He could end up going anywhere.

Trading a top five pick and two players with possible high ceilings for a rental doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

Yes it does. Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, all those guys are good pieces, but in todays NBA you need multiple superstars to compete.

You guys don't comprehend how much more money the celtics could offer George then other teams. It's easy to turn down Indiana's max deal because they are stuck with a shitty aging club, but a team like the Celtics have a much better near future as well as being one of the most popular teams in the NBA means he can get some good shoe deals and shit there.

If your team is so toxic that people won't want to resign with you even though you can give a shit ton more money then other teams, then maybe it's time to do a proper rebuild.
 
B

Bread

Banned
Jarate said:
Yes it does. Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, all those guys are good pieces, but in todays NBA you need multiple superstars to compete.

You guys don't comprehend how much more money the celtics could offer George then other teams. It's easy to turn down Indiana's max deal because they are stuck with a shitty aging club, but a team like the Celtics have a much better near future as well as being one of the most popular teams in the NBA means he can get some good shoe deals and shit there.

If your team is so toxic that people won't want to resign with you even though you can give a shit ton more money then other teams, then maybe it's time to do a proper rebuild.
Click to expand...
players must also remain on the team they were on during their rookie contracts.
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Celtics couldn't give him the super max
 
J

Jarate

Banned
That's why im also astounded that the Celtics didnt go after a guy like Noel, who's actually improving his jump shot, and was essentially worth Rozier and 2 2nd rounders. Thomas will naturally have a hard time being in front of guys just due to his size, and a rim protector like Noel would help tremendously.

Also, as someone who is probably one of the biggest fans of advanced stats, they are not the end all be all that other analytic folks make them out to be. It's asinine to ignore statistical evidence, but one of the first things you learn in any statistics class is that correlation =/= causation. Thomas will never be a good defender, but his offensive skillset makes him incredibly valuable, you can also just put Thomas on the second guard and have one of your better defenders guard the better guard. Being a bad defender at PG isn't the worst thing on earth
 
M

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Domcorleone said:
You cant always prevent mismatches, thats the whole point of scheming is to create them. Mismatches happen in every game in basketball, thats what teams try to exploit, especially in the low post. Also according to the bleacher report (since you like stats) Kyrie is actually behind IT (specifically in 4th quarter defense). So hes not objectively the worse.
Click to expand...

As I just told you it's not just stats the eye test is all I need to know which I just explained to you in detail what he gets wrong. I also in plain english just said you can't eliminate mismatches only work hard to prevent them. As I also pointed out IT is a walking mismatch. There doesn't even need to be a switch, he's just not there on defense for the most part. He is ranked 86th out of 86th in PG plus minus in defense. He is dead last in every metric. I watch the games and he's a siev and a non factor in contesting. I don't know what else to tell you.

Jarate said:
IT is not a one way player. He's a flawed player due to his height, but that isn't everything.

His offensive skillset is still tremendous and he is still really the only consistent iso scorer on that team as well. IDK why some Celtics fans don't like him. He's also the emotional leader of the team as well.

The good thing about Fultz is he can basically fit into any type of team style. He can be a primary ball handler, or be an off ball shooter. He's that talented.
Click to expand...

Boston LOVES IT, trust me. It's IT mania around here right now. I don't think anybody wants him out of here, it's more that when push comes to shove is he a max contract guy? I've come around a little bit given his magic this season, although I'm interested to see if he can keep up this torrid pace.
 
H

Hyperactivity

Banned
Domcorleone said:
You cant go just by DWC, because of course the teams defense is going to go up when you have Marcus Smart, an elite defender or Terry Rozier a solid bigger bodied defender, taking your place. People need to stop just looking at stat sheets/analytics and watch the games.

IT is a fine defender when its someone that is 6-6'2 ft. Where he gets killed is on the pick and roll switches that force him to defend someone that is 6'5 and up. Its not like he doesn't try (i.e Harden, Kyrie, Dirk, Carmelo, Steph).

He actually has a good idea of how to defend. His height just makes it more difficult against any position from 2-4.
Click to expand...

That doesn't somehow make it better...

Forgetting the Cavs and TT for a second, let's look the Raptors and Wizards for a second:

Raptors:
Kyle Lowry - 6' 0''
Demar DeRozan - 6' 7''
Norman Powell - 6' 4''
Corey Joeseph - 6' 3''

Wizards
John Wall - 6' 4''
Bradley Beal - 6' 5''
Bojan Bogdanovic - 6' 7''
Kelly Oubre Jr. (only every plays SF though) - 6' 7''

At least 2 of Beal, Porter, and Wall have smoked the Celtics every time they've played this year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201611090WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201701110BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201701240WAS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201612090BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201701100TOR.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201702010BOS.html

Toronto's guards are similar, ESPECIALLY DeRozan, who (when playing) has consistently bullied IT and the other Celtics' guards with his height

Celtics aren't, imo, getting past ECSF, unless they drop to 3rd seed and the Hawks beat one of the Raptors/Wizards
 
M

mjp2417

Banned
Jarate said:
Doesn't he get bird rights tho? Or did you already use that on a player?

NBA salary caps are weird. Im really going to have to spend like a day or two learning the entire thing one of these days
Click to expand...

You need three seasons with the current team for bird rights to kick in.

Edit: Actually, I'm wrong, it looks like PG's bird rights would be traded along with him from the Pacers
 
M

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Hyperactivity said:
That doesn't somehow make it better...

Forgetting the Cavs and TT for a second, let's look the Raptors and Wizards for a second:

Raptors:
Kyle Lowry - 6' 0''
Demar DeRozan - 6' 7''
Norman Powell - 6' 4''
Corey Joeseph - 6' 3''

Wizards
John Wall - 6' 4''
Bradley Beal - 6' 5''
Bojan Bogdanovic - 6' 7''
Kelly Oubre Jr. (only every plays SF though) - 6' 7''

At least 2 of Beal, Porter, and Wall have smoked the Celtics every time they've played this year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201611090WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201701110BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201701240WAS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201612090BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201701100TOR.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201702010BOS.html

Toronto's guards are similar, ESPECIALLY DeRozan, who (when playing) has consistently bullied IT and the other Celtics' guards with his height

Celtics aren't, imo, getting past ECSF, unless they drop to 3rd seed and the Hawks beat one of the Raptors/Wizards
Click to expand...

They can beat the raptors, but with the play of the wizards right now I'm not convinced. They CAN, but not sure they would.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
Jarate said:
That's why im also astounded that the Celtics didnt go after a guy like Noel, who's actually improving his jump shot, and was essentially worth Rozier and 2 2nd rounders. Thomas will naturally have a hard time being in front of guys just due to his size, and a rim protector like Noel would help tremendously.

Also, as someone who is probably one of the biggest fans of advanced stats, they are not the end all be all that other analytic folks make them out to be. It's asinine to ignore statistical evidence, but one of the first things you learn in any statistics class is that correlation =/= causation. Thomas will never be a good defender, but his offensive skillset makes him incredibly valuable, you can also just put Thomas on the second guard and have one of your better defenders guard the better guard. Being a bad defender at PG isn't the worst thing on earth
Click to expand...

While I agree for the most part, I take issue with the term "bad defender". I'm inclined to say IT is not an effective defender which is by virtue of his size. Mechanically speaking, he has sound defensive instincts it's just his size puts him at a disadvantage. If butler had to guard Centers and was consistently scored on despite doing everything correctly, would you say he's a bad defender? When I think of bad defenders I think of Melo, Dirk who not only lack effort but also have poor lateral movement to stay in front of their man.

I personally think that nuance is important to take into account.
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
Jarate said:
Yes it does. Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, all those guys are good pieces, but in todays NBA you need multiple superstars to compete.

You guys don't comprehend how much more money the celtics could offer George then other teams. It's easy to turn down Indiana's max deal because they are stuck with a shitty aging club, but a team like the Celtics have a much better near future as well as being one of the most popular teams in the NBA means he can get some good shoe deals and shit there.

If your team is so toxic that people won't want to resign with you even though you can give a shit ton more money then other teams, then maybe it's time to do a proper rebuild.
Click to expand...

So, you think it makes sense to trade a top five pick and four important players from your team for a year and a half of Paul George?

Obviously you think that is enough to win one, two championships?
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
msdstc said:
Damn I thought you were all about IT. I've been all about IT being a flawed star for a while now, but he's won me over a bit with his magic this season. Still he's not a max player given his literal dead last ranking on DWS and every other defensive statistic.

I don't think it's just that. I don't know why people are so quick to blow this group up when it's just not there yet. WOOO we landed jimmy butler losing possible future superstars and a big part of what makes this team good enough for 2nd anyways... where would that get us? Slightly better overall? Maybe who knows, because when you essentially strip the entire team you're not sure what's going to happen. I know one thing for sure, Butler, IT, and Horford aren't winning you dick. I'm not even sure that gets you past the wizards team the way they're playing.
Click to expand...

I like IT but it's still all about the end game. You trying to beat a team with the best player in the world or beat a a freaking GS team that has two top 4 of the best players in the league. Like you said. Al IT and another player simply aren't good enough.
 
B

Bread

Banned
jbug617 said:
Zach Lowe new Celtics article is out
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18750650/zach-lowe-boston-celtics-trade-deadline-nba

Interesting quote:
Click to expand...
The Celtics are fine. They are the envy of the league, really. They are a good team now, and they might pick in the top three of the next two drafts. That is insane.

But it guarantees them nothing. Getting Butler wouldn't have guaranteed them anything either, beyond the security of having him on the team. It's fine for Boston to have stood pat. These are hard choices. There are more coming. Boston has to get some big ones right.
Click to expand...
<3 Zach Lowe
 
M

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Domcorleone said:
While I agree for the most part, I take issue with the term "bad defender". I'm inclined to say IT is not an effective defender which is by virtue of his size. Mechanically speaking, he has sound defensive instincts it's just his size puts him at a disadvantage. If butler had to guard Centers and was consistently scored on despite doing everything correctly, would you say he's a bad defender? When I think of bad defenders I think of Melo, Dirk who not only lack effort but also have poor lateral movement to stay in front of their man.

I personally think that nuance is important to take into account.
Click to expand...

This makes 0 sense, I'm sorry. His size is a direct factor in his defensive ability. It doesn't matter if you think he's mechanically sound... which I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion considering how often he gets burned at the perimeter. Size is a big part in defense. Why do you think Jaylen Brown is so coveted? His length and size allow him to cover position 1-4. Same goes for smarts wingspan and weight, allowing him to stay with quicker guards, but also able to bang with guys like millsap in the playoffs last year. This is a ridiculously stupid argument your putting out right now.

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped.

Tom Penny said:
I like IT but it's still all about the end game. You trying to beat a team with the best player in the world or beat a a freaking GS team that has two top 4 of the best players in the league. Like you said. Al IT and another player simply aren't good enough.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm completely on board with Danny's patience at the moment. I feel blowing up the core and picks for butler would be moving backwards.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
msdstc said:
As I just told you it's not just stats the eye test is all I need to know which I just explained to you in detail what he gets wrong. I also in plain english just said you can't eliminate mismatches only work hard to prevent them. As I also pointed out IT is a walking mismatch. There doesn't even need to be a switch, he's just not there on defense for the most part. He is ranked 86th out of 86th in PG plus minus in defense. He is dead last in every metric. I watch the games and he's a siev and a non factor in contesting. I don't know what else to tell you.



Boston LOVES IT, trust me. It's IT mania around here right now. I don't think anybody wants him out of here, it's more that when push comes to shove is he a max contract guy? I've come around a little bit given his magic this season, although I'm interested to see if he can keep up this torrid pace.
Click to expand...


Fair enough, I guess we'all have to disagree. I've watched virtually every game and more often than not I see IT give effort on defense and depending on the match up he fairs well enough. Like Steph, I think he needs the right personnel to mask his defensive deficiencies.

As much as I love IT I agree, it's hard to give him max contract, if only because it's his first year playing at this elite level (most likely due to it being a contract year). We need to be able to pay for another superstar in order to be in contention in the east. I feel we shouldn't have maxed out Horford and that will come to bite us in the ass.

It's also hard however, to let go of a 30 and 6 guy in a point guard driven league. I'm not completely sold on Fultz, his team sucks in they aren't in the toughest division.
 
J

Jarate

Banned
Sanjuro said:
So, you think it makes sense to trade a top five pick and four important players from your team for a year and a half of Paul George?

Obviously you think that is enough to win one, two championships?
Click to expand...

Is it a garaunteed year and a half? Are you sure George and his agent will want to leave a loaded team, one that is one of the popular teams in the world just cause.

The Celtics aren't Memphis. They are a legendary franchise.
 
L

LowlySmokeGuy

Banned
The Bulls traded two solid players for 3 worthless trash players. Okay then...

Only reason I can see them doing this is to tank, but that's still a pretty goddamn stupid thing to do at this point in the season.

Butler is probably regretting that he didn't get traded after that fuck up.
 
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