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[Hyperactivity]

That's why im also astounded that the Celtics didnt go after a guy like Noel, who's actually improving his jump shot, and was essentially worth Rozier and 2 2nd rounders. Thomas will naturally have a hard time being in front of guys just due to his size, and a rim protector like Noel would help tremendously.

Also, as someone who is probably one of the biggest fans of advanced stats, they are not the end all be all that other analytic folks make them out to be. It's asinine to ignore statistical evidence, but one of the first things you learn in any statistics class is that correlation =/= causation. Thomas will never be a good defender, but his offensive skillset makes him incredibly valuable, you can also just put Thomas on the second guard and have one of your better defenders guard the better guard. Being a bad defender at PG isn't the worst thing on earth

Oh believe me, IT is crazy good, but it seems pretty evident that the teams that expose him best are the ones with talent at their 1 through 3 position. which happen to be what the other two 2-4 seeds are.

In some ways, I have to wonder if the Celtics wouldn't rather choose Josh Jackson. I'm not sure what the talent difference between him and Fultz is, but he's consistently discussed as top 2 or 3, and it seems like his main competition for the #2 pick is Lonzo, who runs the risk, imo, of being a high risk high reward sort of player, and a player for which a system has to be designed around.

Of course, always pick best talent available, but I'm first wondering how big of a talent gap there is there (I don't know), and second if they might not go for a 1993 Webber for Hardaway and picks (or players in this case?) sort of trade.

 

[Bread]

This makes 0 sense, I'm sorry. His size is a direct factor in his defensive ability. It doesn't matter if you think he's mechanically sound... which I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion considering how often he gets burned at the perimeter. Size is a big part in defense. Why do you think Jaylen Brown is so coveted? His length and size allow him to cover position 1-4. Same goes for smarts wingspan and weight, allowing him to stay with quicker guards, but also able to bang with guys like millsap in the playoffs last year. This is a ridiculously stupid argument your putting out right now.

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped.

 

[Tom Penny]

That's why I'm completely on board with Danny's patience at the moment. I feel blowing up the core and picks for butler would be moving backwards.

Nobody knows the details but it simply makes no sense to trade for one guy and still have to replace two other guys production after that trade on top of giving up a chance at a good player in the draft. That's the definition of a marginal treadmill move.

 

[msdstc]

Fair enough, I guess we'all have to disagree. I've watched virtually every game and more often than not I see IT give effort on defense and depending on the match up he fairs well enough. Like Steph, I think he needs the right personnel to mask his defensive deficiencies.

As much as I love IT I agree, it's hard to give him max contract, if only because it's his first year playing at this elite level (most likely due to it being a contract year). We need to be able to pay for another superstar in order to be in contention in the east. I feel we shouldn't have maxed out Horford and that will come to bite us in the ass.

It's also hard however, to let go of a 30 and 6 guy in a point guard driven league. I'm not completely sold on Fultz, his team sucks in they aren't in the toughest division.

 

[mjp2417]

While I agree for the most part, I take issue with the term "bad defender". I'm inclined to say IT is not an effective defender which is by virtue of his size. Mechanically speaking, he has sound defensive instincts it's just his size puts him at a disadvantage. If butler had to guard Centers and was consistently scored on despite doing everything correctly, would you say he's a bad defender? When I think of bad defenders I think of Melo, Dirk who not only lack effort but also have poor lateral movement to stay in front of their man.

I personally think that nuance is important to take into account.

An ineffective defender is a bad defender. There are no A's for effort in the NBA. And the Butler analogy doesn't work because Butler guarding centers would make him a misused defender. There is a proper use for Jimmy Butler's defense in the NBA. There is no proper use for IT's defense in the NBA because he is a bad defender against all positions.

 

[Sanjuro]

Is it a garaunteed year and a half? Are you sure George and his agent will want to leave a loaded team, one that is one of the popular teams in the world just cause.

The Celtics aren't Memphis. They are a legendary franchise.

You aren't answering the question though.

They might as well be Memphis to him if he has a plan in mind.

 

[Domcorleone]

This makes 0 sense, I'm sorry. His size is a direct factor in his defensive ability. It doesn't matter if you think he's mechanically sound... which I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion considering how often he gets burned at the perimeter. Size is a big part in defense. Why do you think Jaylen Brown is so coveted? His length and size allow him to cover position 1-4. Same goes for smarts wingspan and weight, allowing him to stay with quicker guards, but also able to bang with guys like millsap in the playoffs last year. This is a ridiculously stupid argument your putting out right now.

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped.



That's why I'm completely on board with Danny's patience at the moment. I feel blowing up the core and picks for butler would be moving backwards.

It's not a dumb argument. Mechanics matter just as much as a players build does. James Harden has the build that should make him a great defender yet he isn't, Westbrook has the build to be an elite defender yet he isn't. Why do you think that is? There are other factors than a players build. That's ridiculous to imply otherwise.

Andre Drummond defense isn't the best and he's an athletic freak, why? Because he has poor defensive fundamentals.

 

[msdstc]

An ineffective defender is a bad defender. There are no A's for effort in the NBA. And the Butler analogy doesn't work because Butler guarding centers would make him a misused defender. There is a proper use for Jimmy Butler's defense in the NBA. There is no proper use for IT's defense in the NBA because he is a bad defender against all positions.

In his analogy, Isaiah is playing in a league made up of centers and nothing else.

 

[Jarate]

You aren't answering the question though.

They might as well be Memphis to him if he has a plan in mind.

What plan? He might go to LA one day like every other free agent might do. It's a ploy done by agents all the time to raise value on a player.

If he literally told you he wasn't resigning, then I'd agree it wouldn't be worth it, but we don't know that answer.

In his analogy, Isaiah is playing in a league made up of centers and nothing else.

With how short IT is that's probably right

 

[Bread]

It's not a dumb argument. Mechanics matter just as much as a players build does. James Harden has the build that should make him a great defender yet he isn't, Westbrook has the build to be an elite defender yet he isn't. Why do you think that is? There are other factors than a players build. That's ridiculous to imply otherwise.

Andre Drummond defense isn't the best and he's an athletic freak, why? Because he has poor defensive fundamentals.

I'm not sure how that's relevant at all. Thomas's height and lack of lateral quickness keeps him from being an effective defender. He can try as hard as he wants but it won't make him a league average defender. That's just how he was born and it will always be a weakness.

 

[Domcorleone]

In his analogy, Isaiah is playing in a league made up of centers and nothing else.

No in my analogy his effectiveness is relative to the person he has to defense due to his size. You can drop as many memes as you want, you haven't responded to why the aforementioned guards who have poor defense aren't great despite their build.

 

[msdstc]

It's not a dumb argument. Mechanics matter just as much as a players build does. James Harden has the build that should make him a great defender yet he isn't, Westbrook has the build to be an elite defender yet he isn't. Why do you think that is? There are other factors than a players build. That's ridiculous to imply otherwise.

Andre Drummond defense isn't the best and he's an athletic freak, why? Because he has poor defensive fundamentals.

ok first let me get this out of the way. Drummond was a top tier defender last year. This year he's up and down for whatever reason

duuuuuuuudeeee.... really?! Yes of course there are more to it than just build, I never said otherwise! But effort and mechanics mean dick if you don't have the build to use them, Doubly so for IT's extremely unique build for the NBA.

 

[Sandfox]

I don't see Paul George getting traded now. Bird is going to opt for one last ditch effort to put a contender around him and if that doesn't nobody is going to trade for him during next year's trade deadline.

Then he come to the Lakers to join up with his former mentor and the people he idolizes.

 

[Sanjuro]

What plan? He might go to LA one day like every other free agent might do. It's a ploy done by agents all the time to raise value on a player.

If he literally told you he wasn't resigning, then I'd agree it wouldn't be worth it, but we don't know that answer.

Even if he said he would resign, I still wouldn't. He is under no obligation to do so unless he agrees to tear up the paperwork.

 

[Domcorleone]

I'm not sure how that's relevant at all. Thomas's height and lack of lateral quickness keeps him from being an effective defender. He can try as hard as he wants but it won't make him a league average defender. That's just how he was born and it will always be a weakness.

I agree that it's a weakness, I never said it wasn't though.
What I took issue with is the term bad defender, to me that has to do with mechanics, IQ and effort. A great build is a great boon when it comes to being a more effective defender but it doesn't mean you automatically will be a good one.

That's all I was stating.

 

[Hyperactivity]

While I agree for the most part, I take issue with the term "bad defender". I'm inclined to say IT is not an effective defender which is by virtue of his size. Mechanically speaking, he has sound defensive instincts it's just his size puts him at a disadvantage. If butler had to guard Centers and was consistently scored on despite doing everything correctly, would you say he's a bad defender? When I think of bad defenders I think of Melo, Dirk who not only lack effort but also have poor lateral movement to stay in front of their man.

I personally think that nuance is important to take into account.

No, that's not how this works at all. Being active on defense is important, yes, but putting a "he would be a good defender if he was taller" sort of statement out there is useless.

Tbh, I'm probably fine with the Celtics not trading anything for Butler or Paul George, that much makes sense to me. I don't think that puts them over the top over Cleveland or the Warriors. And they still can trade the picks on draft day if need be, after they see how this core does in the playoffs.

I think them signing Horford for as much money as he is signed for, them NOT signing Boogie, which seemed like a complete and utter no-brainer to me, these are the things that bother me more. I would've fired on a Boogie deal immediatley, especially if I could offer less than the Nets pick this year, or even possibly either Nets pick. Paul George is younger and more solid, imo, but I doubt he stays, and while Butler is possible, I don't see Chicago being any better next year, while they can see how their 2017 pick is doing and still be able to trade the 2018 pick.

It's really just Boogie and Horford that annoy me.

More that I think about it, the more I think the Celtics trade down for Jackson.

 

[msdstc]

No in my analogy his effectiveness is relative to the person he has to defense due to his size. You can drop as many memes as you want, you haven't responded to why the aforementioned guards who have poor defense aren't great despite their build.

Yes I did from my very first post. Effectively IT is a walking mismatch, because every player he is playing is much bigger than him.

Poor defense is rampant in the league I never said height is the determining factor... that's only part of it. For example Wiggins was drafted as the prototypical shut down wing defender, but he's trash right now. Of course fundamentals are important, but just like Wiggins sucks despite his size and tools, Isaiah sucks despite these "mechanics" he apparently has despite you never responding why those fundamentals haven't been able to stop players getting into the lane at will when going against him.

 

[Tom Penny]

No in my analogy his effectiveness is relative to the person he has to defense due to his size. You can drop as many memes as you want, you haven't responded to why the aforementioned guards who have poor defense aren't great despite their build.

You are either a good defender our you are not. Physical limitations matter in sports...You should coach and hand out participation trophies to all the people who did good relative to their size..

 

[Bread]

I agree that it's a weakness, I never said it wasn't though.
What I took issue with is the term bad defender, to me that has to do with mechanics, IQ and effort. A great build is a great boon when it comes to being a more effective defender but it doesn't mean you automatically will be a good one.

That's all I was stating.

You're leaving size and strength out of the equation because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[msdstc]

I agree that it's a weakness, I never said it wasn't though.
What I took issue with is the term bad defender, to me that has to do with mechanics, IQ and effort. A great build is a great boon when it comes to being a more effective defender but it doesn't mean you automatically will be a good one.

That's all I was stating.

and you're wrong because that's only part of the equation. Your also wrong about his mechanics.

 

[pislit]

is deron williams' waiving the mavs pay it forward to toronto's peja's waiving in 2011? wtf is that

 

[Domcorleone]

ok first let me get this out of the way. Drummond was a top tier defender last year. This year he's up and down for whatever reason

duuuuuuuudeeee.... really?! Yes of course there are more to it than just build, I never said otherwise! But effort and mechanics mean dick if you don't have the build to use them, Doubly so for IT's extremely unique build for the NBA.

I never said because IT is small and gives effort (which I perceive as effort) that he is automatcilly a great defender. I took issue with the term "bad defender" and listed out my criteria for what a bad defender is. You can argue and say it's all semantics but I actually believe there is a fundamental difference regardless of the fact the the outcome is the same - a poor defensive stop

 

[ViciousDS]

Really wish I wasn't a Bulls fan

tell me about it


We officially in full tank mode.....and we kept butler......why

 

[Hyperactivity]

No in my analogy his effectiveness is relative to the person he has to defense due to his size. You can drop as many memes as you want, you haven't responded to why the aforementioned guards who have poor defense aren't great despite their build.

It's too bad that, for all practicalities, IT being a decent defender relative to his size is absolutely useless given his size relative to everyone else's

It's not a dumb argument. Mechanics matter just as much as a players build does. James Harden has the build that should make him a great defender yet he isn't, Westbrook has the build to be an elite defender yet he isn't. Why do you think that is? There are other factors than a players build. That's ridiculous to imply otherwise.

Andre Drummond defense isn't the best and he's an athletic freak, why? Because he has poor defensive fundamentals.

It does matter, entirely.

Harden and Westbrook are able to, at key moment, get a defensive stop with their bodies. Westbrook and Roberson on Klay and Steph for the first couple of games of the GSW series? Harden can be an average defender, for seasons and stretches of games when he wants and needs to be. He isn't Kawhi, but he isn't IT, because IT will always be a negative of defense because of his height alone

 

[Domcorleone]

and you're wrong because that's only part of the equation. Your also wrong about his mechanics.

Ok how am I wrong? I agreed that size and strength play a factor and then proceeded to list out the other factors. What am i missing? (Serious question)

 

[msdstc]

I never said because IT is small and gives effort (which I perceive as effort) that he is automatcilly a great defender. I took issue with the term "bad defender" and listed out my criteria for what a bad defender is. You can argue and say it's all semantics but I actually believe there is a fundamental difference regardless of the fact the the outcome is the same - a poor defensive stop

Actually it is all semantics, because you having been moving the goalposts since your first post... in between the posts hurling out accusations against several posters as "box score watchers" or "analytics redditors" w.e that means.

Luckily you're not a gm, because your criteria for bad defense is broken on every level. You also said IT has no issue defending the 1 position, which has been debunked several times over. You also have failed to address why, if he's so fundamentally sound and high IQ on defense, he constantly gets dusted to the rim or cheats picks, or is poor at closeouts, etc.

 

[Sanjuro]

Remember when Deron was supposedly good enough to cancer Sloan?

Fun times.

 

[msdstc]

Ok how am I wrong? I agreed that size and strength play a factor and then proceeded to list out the other factors. What am i missing? (Serious question)

You're factually wrong that those 3 things are what make a great defender. You're not saying it's part of it, you're flat out saying that's what you think makes a good defender. You can have the best IQ and fundamentals in the world, and give just the greatest of big boy efforts, but if you're 5'3" you won't be able to play NBA defense.

 

[pislit]

IT is fine. Barea was the game changer in that Dallas-Heat series even though he is small and IT is way much better than him(obviously). the problem is boston dont have a center where they can funnel IT's man. they can miss on PG or Butler, but how the hell they didnt get Noel for that price? yeah cap space and all but come on now.

 

[Into the Light]

Well, see you all during free agency, its been real.

 

[Lee Chaolan]

is deron williams' waiving the mavs pay it forward to toronto's peja's waiving in 2011? wtf is that

Cuban our Hero. :')

 

[msdstc]

IT is fine. Barea was the game changer in that Dallas-Heat series even though he is small and IT is way much better than him(obviously). the problem is boston dont have a center where they can funnel IT's man. they can miss on PG or Butler, but how the hell they didnt get Noel for that price? yeah cap space and all but come on now.

I don't think anybody is anti-IT more the question has been asked if he's worth it as a max contract player given the defensive issues he brings to the table. Barea never faced that question given he was a bench spark, which before this season a lot really thought was the ceiling for Isaiah. Also JJ has several inches on IT, not that it matters, he stinks.

 

[Domcorleone]

Actually it is all semantics, because you having been moving the goalposts since your first post... in between the posts hurling out accusations against several posters as "box score watchers" or "analytics redditors" w.e that means.

Luckily you're not a gm, because your criteria for bad defense is broken on every level. You also said IT has no issue defending the 1 position, which has been debunked several times over. You also have failed to address why, if he's so fundamentally sound and high IQ on defense, he constantly gets dusted to the rim or cheats picks, or is poor at closeouts, etc.

How have I been moving goalposts? I understand if my earlier post got you defensive (if so I apologize) but I have been consistent in what I've been saying which is offensively IT keeps us in games we would have lost otherwise. I then brought up my issue with the term bad defender and since we were talking about IT I proceeded to explain why I thought that. Feel free to pm me statements I made during this exchange that show me moving goalposts.

I'm sure you're gonna saying not worth your time, so...

What is your criteria for bad defense? We know it factors in size and strength but what else?

 

[Bread]

IT is fine. Barea was the game changer in that Dallas-Heat series even though he is small and IT is way much better than him(obviously). the problem is boston dont have a center where they can funnel IT's man. they can miss on PG or Butler, but how the hell they didnt get Noel for that price? yeah cap space and all but come on now.

Barea didn't even play 20 minutes a game, and most of them were against backups. And he made like $5 million a year! Is this really the guy you want to use as an example?

 

[LockOfTheWeek]

I just want to fucking die right now ;-; Why did we replace Hinkie with Bryan Fucking Colangelo. Who thought it was a good idea.

Bryan's dad thought his son would be perfect for the role. This whole thing makes me fucking sick.

 

[Domcorleone]

You're factually wrong that those 3 things are what make a great defender. You're not saying it's part of it, you're flat out saying that's what you think makes a good defender. You can have the best IQ and fundamentals in the world, and give just the greatest of big boy efforts, but if you're 5'3" you won't be able to play NBA defense.

I never said those are the only 3 things, I said those are important because without those your size doesn't help you as much. Size is part of it.
your ability to defend is relative to the person you have to defend which is why I brought up the center analogy.

 

[pislit]

Chris Bosh joins TNT as analyst.

He doesn't fit there, he's better off with Rachel Nichols. What he's going to do in Area 21? lol

EDIT: Wait does this mean his salary on heat off the books or is it off the books already?

 

[msdstc]

I never said those are the only 3 things, I said those are important because without those your size doesn't help you as much. Size is part of it.
your ability to defend is relative to the person you have to defend which is why I brought up the center analogy.

But the initial argument was that IT is a one way player in a sense that he is non-existent on defense. Nobody gives a shit about his effort or mechanics, which as I and others have pointed out a bunch, aren't even good in the first place. Maybe his effort is I guess, despite cheating picks. He bites a lot on fakes, he's slow to react, he struggles to keep his man in front of him, etc. You've completely changed this argument from wether or not he can play defense, to fit the concept that is "well he's not a bad defender because he tries hard".

It doesn't work that way. There is no difference between a bad defender and an ineffective defender. They both are bad for defense.

Now if you'll excuse me I have some box scores to check, I still haven't seen the scores of the games from last week.

 

[teepo]

deron williams is supposedly signing with the cavs

gg wizard/east

 

[Domcorleone]

But the initial argument was that IT is a one way player in a sense that he is non-existent on defense. Nobody gives a shit about his effort or mechanics, which as I and others have pointed out a bunch, aren't even good in the first place. Maybe his effort is I guess, despite cheating picks. He bites a lot on fakes, he's slow to react, he struggles to keep his man in front of him, etc. You've completely changed this argument from wether or not he can play defense, to fit the concept that is "well he's not a bad defender because he tries hard".

It doesn't work that way. There is no difference between a bad defender and an ineffective defender. They both are bad for defense.

Now if you'll excuse me I have some box scores to check, I still haven't seen the scores of the games from last week.

Ahh so it was the box score thing that got you mad, my fault man. I shouldn't have said that, that was childish of me. My apologies.

However, I was simply making a separate arguement regarding the term "bad defender ". Which I feel I sufficiently explained. But since it's clear we both use the eye test below are some examples what i mean when I say he has sound mechanics and can defend relative to who he has to guard. His size obviously negatively impacts his effectiveness therefore he usually hurts the defense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eMNNyoG3yZs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWzLJyYUtk

If you no longer want to engage in this debate because you feel I'm moving goalposts or still feel a way about what I said regarding box scores let me know. Otherwise I'm curious for you to tell me what you see in those clips.

 

[msdstc]

Ahh so it was the box score thing that got you mad, my fault man. I shouldn't have said that, that was childish of me. My apologies.

However, I was simply making a separate arguement regarding the term "bad defender ". Which I feel I sufficiently explained. But since it's clear we both use the eye test below are some examples what i mean when I say he has sound mechanics and can defend relative to who he has to guard. His size obviously negatively impacts his effectiveness therefore he usually hurts the defense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eMNNyoG3yZs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWzLJyYUtk

If you no longer want to engage in this debate because you feel I'm moving goalposts or still feel a way about what I said regarding box scores let me know. Otherwise I'm curious for you to tell me what you see in those clips.

I honestly don't care at all lol. I was being a sarcastic a hole

I'm not mad at all either, it's just clear you are arguing semantics. I'm not going to watch 2 clips proving Isaiah can play sound defense once in a while. I could do that with any player ever. You're argument is about the term bad defender vs. ineffective defender, which if that's what floats your boat, go for it. All I care about is how his defense impacts the game, and it's a bad one. As I've said as well which you've conveniently skirted is how he is consistently beat to the rim, cheats picks, gets lost, etc.

 

[Domcorleone]

I honestly don't care at all lol. I was being a sarcastic a hole

I'm not mad at all either, it's just clear you are arguing semantics. I'm not going to watch 2 clips proving Isaiah can play sound defense once in a while. I could do that with any player ever. You're argument is about the term bad defender vs. ineffective defender, which if that's what floats your boat, go for it. All I care about is how his defense impacts the game, and it's a bad one. As I've said as well which you've conveniently skirted is how he is consistently beat to the rim, cheats picks, gets lost, etc.

Well actually if you took the time to watch the clips you would see I posted one where he wasn't playing sound defense and was getting blown past and another that was a compilation of him playing better defense. I genuinely wanted to know what you saw in those clips specifically so I can look for them too. It's not an "I gotcha moment".

 

[Domcorleone]

Who besides Bogut could the Celtics get to shore up that front court? I don't know if I want an alt righter on our team

 

[Lionel Richie]

Remember when Deron was supposedly good enough to cancer Sloan?

Fun times.

Remember when people said Deron and Carlos fucking Boozer were the new Stockton/Malone?

 

[friskykillface]

Deron is washed

 

[ViciousDS]

D Will on cavs might be the revival he needs.



Holy fuck golden state game is on at 10:30


Lord

 

[thehypocrite]

Deron is washed

Better than Felder.

 

[mjp2417]

Remember when people said Deron and Carlos fucking Boozer were the new Stockton/Malone?

Williams was really fucking good once upon a time though. The Boozer/Malone comparisons were always goofy, but if you have one of the truly elite PG's in the league at 23/24 years old wearing a Jazz uniform they're going to get Stockton comps. He looked like he was going to be an all timer for a few years there.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Williams was really fucking good once upon a time though. The Boozer/Malone comparisons were always goofy, but if you have one of the truly elite PG's in the league at 23/24 years old wearing a Jazz uniform they're going to get Stockton comps. He looked like he was going to be an all timer for a few years there.

He was really great (although not quite Stockton great) and a real joy to watch. It's a shame his body didn't hold up and he was an asshole to boot, that's a bad mix right there.

 

[darkwing-buck]

God it seems ages ago when Deron Williams and Chris Paul were neck and neck battling to see who was the best point guard in the league.