A bunch of Celtics fans I saw thought that they wouldn't win the lottery and that Issac was theirs
I hope this isn't true
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NBA Offseason 2017 |OT| Only Big Ballers Allowed *please pay $495 to be a Big Baller
- Thread starter Jarate
- Start date
I hope this isn't true
StanleyStutters
Member
Is he reliable for NBA sources? He's primarily an MLB guy, right?
While I agree Griffin did a good job, the pieces were in place for most GM's to make the team a title contender. They had Kyrie, Thompson, LeBron, Wiggins and Waiters. They had three of their five starters when he took over the position. Most general managers could have done that Love trade. When you have LeBron, you become a win now organization, and Wiggins was the perfect asset to acquire Love. Moving Waiters for Smith and Shumpert was a decent move but even Waiters has been a pretty good player the last couple of seasons and could have given the Cavs similar production. The Mozgov trade helped them come close to the title in 2015 but then got hurt and was unusable. And at least one of those draft picks they had to acquire him were attained by Chris Grant, not Griffin.
I honestly think Griffin did his best work this season, getting Korver whole still saving Gilbert money was a great move. And then having the patience to wait for a guy like Derron Williams to fall into his lap, but even those moves weren't enough to challenge the Warriors.
I dont think Isaac is the 3rd best player but for a team like the Celtics he would be a good fit.
Cornbread78
Member
Not sure if I like the pick. He was pretty beastly in college though.
Yeah, he generally is a baseball guy, but the media guys all know people in other sports.
StanleyStutters
Member
Hmm, interesting. I am so excited for tomorrow's draft, I enjoy the off season almost as much as the actual season with NBA and NFL.
ratcliffja
Member
If the rumors are true, it's not just Lebron that's upset. It's the entire team. You don't make such an unpopular decision when your team is so close to another title and already achieved one.
Whether or not Griffin is a great GM is almost beside the point. The timing was very poor considering how important this offseason is. Even a bad GM is better than none when trying to negotiate trades. They likely still need a trade to better match up with the Warriors. If they miss out on a chance to win next year because they got rid of Griffin then the players will rightfully be very upset.
I actually like Isaac for Boston. He, as opposed to Jackson and Tatum, actually fits defensively next to Brown because I see him as a 4 once his body fills out. Tatum will never be a good defender at any position and Jackson isn't big enough to guard 4's.
SwipeLeftHoney
Banned
Looks like Houston has a solid package put together that may land Paul George. Dam!!
Shamrock7r
Member
ugh I wish Spurs were in a spot to land Paul George. Another all around scoring wing like him is exactly what we need.
Maz and Felger don't know shit about NBA but I have heard Isaac is the biggest boom or bust in the draft. I don't know if they worked him out though and why wouldn't they move back?
He's what any contender would need to fight the GSW juggernaut. And he's only 27. Maybe he'll land with my Suns.
I totally agree the timing was bad. Especially just from a lack of class perspective. Gilbert didn't allow Griffin to interview for jobs and waited to announce his decision to let him go after all the GM jobs for this season were filled.
But it's not as if the Cavs have no one answering calls or making moves just because Griff is gone. I'm pretty sure most people inside the organization understand what the team needs to improve on after getting a close-up look at the one matchup that matters for 5 games. If they don't improve the team this off-season, then we can talk about how stupid it was to get rid of Griffin, but a lot of this talk about the Cavs next season is a little premature.
Cornbread78
Member
At least it wasn't Fulgar saying it. Maz does have insider sources, but they are usually for the Sox.
They moved back to the Philly pick because they knew Philly would take Fultz or Ball at #1.
Shamrock7r
Member
But more specifically for the Spurs just based on our struggles last year. Danny Green has a hot or cold 3 pt shot and nothing else offensively. The Spurs need another all around scorer with the starting lineup. I'd rather have him than Chris Paul, because the Spurs' ball movement isn't predicated on just the point guard creating.
You'd think they would have been trying to get 5/10 from the Kings.
Hard for me to say what the Spurs need against GSW because the series was over once KL went down (and Tony being down). I would like to see what Pop could have done against them at full strength. I think PG (point guard) would be the biggest need because I don't think Tony can hang for an entire season. CP3 might have a bigger impact in 2018 than George.
Cornbread78
Member
The Spurs have Green, Kawhi, Ginobili and Simmons at the wing positions, they're pretty loaded there. They lack a point guard. Parker isn't good enough anymore and Mills is a better fit as a backup. CP3 is everything San Antonio needs. Kawhi is a really good scorer but he's not a great passer, neither is Paul George. CP3 gives them a player that can create open looks for the likes of Aldridge and Gaol, he's a master at getting his big men open jumpers and lobs.
At the time in 2011, no one knew that the health thing would kick in, and the Heat had to let go of key players (Miller, etc) because of the repeater tax. A non-repeater tax Heat could have used their MLE every year to grab another reasonably good piece over and over.
On top of it, the precise reason GSW (and super teams in general) happened was because of owner greed and short-sightedness. Having a max salary shifted all the power to the players, and them trying to cheap the players out of money during the big cap jump (which is why the players didn't smooth the cap jump, the owners proposal basically rounded down in the smoothing and funneled some more money back to the owners) led to GSW having the space to sign Durant.
A) The "highest salary" bit is an artifact of being the first big FA team assembled post repeater tax. Right now Portland, GSW, LAC (if they keep everyone and max Blake / CP3), and Boston (if they get another Max FA and resign everyone the following year) are gonna pass Cleveland quickly in "money spent". Considering LeBron has made Gilbert *billions* of dollars (worth of the team, ticket sales, political capital to open up casinos) and gotten paid a fraction of it (because same owners decided to institute a max salary rule that didn't exist in the Jordan era), most star players are rightfully going "the money you would normally have to pay me you're going to at least pay out to make our team better".
B) By all accounts, Gilbert fired Griffin over money issues, because Griffin was being paid way less than most GMs and wanted to get paid equivalently to other GMs. He also waited to fire Griffin after all of the open GM spots that Griffin would have been considered for were closed, and did so in the middle of negotiations to potentially get another superstar (Butler or George). If you are LeBron, or any Cleveland player, firing a super popular GM after underpaying him for years, deliberately dicking him over in a super petty way...I'm gonna guess everyone in that locker room is thinking "Welp, Gilbert is the same dick he was even before LeBron left."
I mean, Griffin is basically Epstein for Cleveland sports.
Also, this. I mean, Dan Gilbert goes to Vivek / James Dolan levels of incompetence without LeBron happening to be born near Cleveland and wanting to play for a hometown team. (See the Zach Lowe tweet about this).
I don't think they can get that deal, but I'm not sure they'd like to anyways. One of the benefits of trading down was opening up a little cap money, picking up another lottery pick (and the guaranteed salary and roster spot) would negate that.
Shamrock7r
Member
Well Dedmon isn't coming back and I don't see Pau and LMA getting a lot of lobs, lol.
Honestly it's probably splitting hairs, as I think either player vastly upgrades the Spurs. As I said though, Green has no shot aside from an occasional 3 pointer, and that hasn't been the same since 2013. I am still not convinced of Simmons as a starter, and Ginobili plays 12-15 minutes as a hybrid wing/ point guard.
In terms of point guards, I have a lot of faith that Dejountay Murray is going to make a nice leap this upcoming year as a player. We were also still top 10 in assists despite our assist leader being Tony Parker at 4.5.
I'd be happy with either don't get me wrong, and the difference may be negligible, but a Paul George/ Kawhi Leonard duo, being very close to each other in age as well, would be very interesting to see.
Duxxy3
Member
They should be able to trade back if they're targeting Isaac.
Kings turned down 2 from the Lakers for 5+10.
I'm not sure I buy that. Wasn't that the rumor that came along with Magic supposedly saying he would trade the pick but only if the Kings agreed not to draft Ball?
At this point I'm leaning towards Tatum and Isaac. Tatum is a really talented scorer and I like his length.
no this was a different rumor that came out yesterday, the one you're talking about was a few days ago i believe
SwipeLeftHoney
Banned
Ya Tatum has some Paul Pierce traits in him too...
silver.tongue
Member
How do you think it will turn out?
Good point. If the kings are high on isaac that might happen
Cre8
You want a shot at the champ? [NG gif winner July 23]
Dejounte Murray is working out with KLeonard this summer. I could see Pop gave him the starting PG position if they don't sign a veteran PG this off season.
I'm not sure, I just think there is a crazy amount of volatility right now, so saying it's locked in seems silly. I wouldn't be surprised to see a trade and I have no idea who 3-5 are gonna take.
SwipeLeftHoney
Banned
Don't be surprised if Ginobili and Parker retire. The Spurs have been looking pretty hard at Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry as replacements at the point.
Awesome players but I think it's better for the Spurs if they do.
I like Murray's upside too, but even if he makes a leap he's not going to be a game changer next season. He's still 2 to 3 years away from being a starting caliber point guard. CP3 would be a perfect stop-gap prior to the Murray era.
Tatum's wingspan is an inch and a half more than Jackson
He's 6'8 206, like he's a pound and half an inch taller than that short armed fuck
Lionel Richie
Member
But the health thing eventually happened and the Heat were fucked anyway. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, that the 2011 CBA had things that tried to fuck with the Heat? It's possible but irrelevant, that team would have declined anyway because of health issues. There's no alternate universe where the changes don't happen and the Heat continue to win more titles and that's because they eventually had said health issues. Unless you want to talk about an alternate universe where there's no new CBA and they have no health issues, but that gets so alternate that I'm afraid you could have giant flying robot dinosaurs wearing polo T-shirts distracting us from the game.
And I agree with your second paragraph, but I fail to see how it relates to Lebron being pissed. He should be pissed because the Warriors managed to do better what he tried to before? Oh the humanities!
SwipeLeftHoney
Banned
It wasn't health that did the Heat in. It was a lack of a bench. The Mavericks and Spurs exploited that to it's fullest in the Finals by forcing those guys to log big minutes and wearing them down to win their championships.
They didn't all of the sudden lose bench players, their bench just got older. By year 4 of the LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat teams, Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, and Udonis Haslem all just got too old to produce as well as they had in the first three seasons.
I can't find the articles any more, but the other owners rewrote the CBA proposal to add the repeater tax after Miami formed their team. It's why Arison voted against the CBA proposal ultimately. It was a deliberate move to hose Miami (and by extension LeBron and other top players). Even with the health thing, you may have another title or two in Miami if they don't have to shed salary to try to avoid the repeater tax. On top of it, they're probably adding a solid young-ish bench player every year with the MLE, something that would have immensely helped them against SAS.
Eh, the warriors got lucky more than anything - Curry turned into a superstar and the cap spike was dumb luck (had anyone known about the cap spike, OKC could have kept Harden and Durant). Without a cap spike, Durant doesn't come, and the Cavs probably destroy GSW in 5 or 6 (they were better this year than last year). The warriors get some credit, but the Durant thing was primarily dumb luck IMO (and OKC being idiots and getting rid of Harden).
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah I agree that the bench was a gigantic flaw. My point is that they would have had the 4 year title window they had anyway because of what happened with Bosh and Wade, it's not like the league screwed with Lebron or anything.
And that's great! They won 2 titles in a row, that's awesome, that's a success for any team. There's no reason to reminisce about what could have been, they won a lot.
Shamrock7r
Member
Parker has already said he isn't retiring. He won't be back until around December at the earliest though
SwipeLeftHoney
Banned
WOW!!! December is a long time. Feel for the guy.
Lionel Richie
Member
No they wouldn't have had another title or two, Bosh and Wade went FUBAR after year 4. The Spurs smacked the living shit out of them in the second Finals, a solid bench player wouldn't have done much. There was a ceiling to what they could achieve and they reached (close to) that ceiling. This revisionist story doesn't work like that because it ignores everything else that could have gone wrong for them. What if Ray Allen forgets he's soft as fuck and decides to not go to Miami? Then they would have won just one title!
Again, is it possible that the CBA fucked the Heat? Yes. Is it possible it was deliberate to fuck the Heat? Yes. Would they have won more without it? I don't think so, I honestly don't see how it would have mattered much when you look at the context as a whole. Besides, isn't 2 titles awesome enough? That team was awesome but when I look at them now and remember how they played, I think 2 titles is pretty much what they deserved. They were fantastic and at times utterly brilliant, but they were a notch below other legendary teams.
Also, not saying luck didn't have anything to do with it, but to say "the Warriors got lucky more than anything" is really underselling how great that team was built. The Heat were the ones who got lucky their big three had a great time playing for team USA and took their talents there. They were tanking for Michael fucking Beasley not long before that happened. The Warriors were a methodically built team that had a lot things going besides being in the right place and the right time for Durant.
Warriors were not lucky. They drafted Curry, Thompson and Green and got one star, Durant, as a free agent.
The Cavs drafted Irving and got one star, LeBron, via free agency. They also won the lottery 3 out of 4 years which got them Wiggins and Bennett which they traded for Love. If anything, the Cavs have been the far luckier team.
And stop with this Cavs would have destroyed the Warriors without Durant. The Cavs barely beat a Warriors team without Durant purely because Green got suspended, Curry was dealing with a legitimate knee injury, and Bogut was hurt for games 5-7.
Warriors would still have been the favorites over the Cavs this year without Durant. And that's despite the fact that I agree with you that Cleveland was a better team in 2017 than they were in 2016. But the team the Cavs beat in the 2016 finals was a shell of the Warriors team that they've actually been for the last three years.
Iguodala has also said he didn't dunk last year on that Lebron back because of severe back pains. Trying to go 73-9 really took a toll on last years Warriors. Then they had to go through a gauntlet in the Western Conference Playoffs.
You wanna know how GS got lucky? The Bucks choose Monta because Steph ain't have ankles. Steph got the same contract as Ty Lawson and people thought the Warriors were dumb. They took a flyer and he ain't been hurt since.
Scouting players isn't luck, it's not luck that Steph and Klay ended up as they did, nor Dray. That's scouting and player development
It's not luck the cap jumped up at the same time to get KD, every team knew that cap was going up and the Warriors capitalized on good business moves.
Scouting players isn't luck, it's not luck that Steph and Klay ended up as they did, nor Dray. That's scouting and player development
It's not luck the cap jumped up at the same time to get KD, every team knew that cap was going up and the Warriors capitalized on good business moves.
True Savior
Member
Lebron should go to the Spurs.
I would have mentioned his back issues as well but I was afraid the response would be, "everyone's hurt during the finals." But yes, he as well was not anywhere close to 100%.
And the Thunder series also wore the Warriors down mentally and physically, while the Cavs had a cake walk past the Raptors. 2017 was the first time in the finals we got to see both teams at full strength and with equal rest going in.
sf2fanatic
Member
I have this gut feeling Lakers are going to draft 2 UCLA guys in the first round