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NBA Offseason Thread! All offseason NBA talk in THIS thread!
- Thread starter DMczaf
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DMczaf said:Call me when Ray Allen actually makes the playoffs again, you are just as bad as VC fans bringing up events from 3 years ago to prove something(Yeah I went there Shinobi! Oooooooooooooh!)
If T-Mac has success next year, we can officially start calling him the NEW Mr. Coattails. He couldn't win in the worst division in basketball by himself so he ran into the pale yellow arms of the gentle giant of Houston to help him get past the first round. Say Hello to the next Scottie Pippen.
Matrix
LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world hed rather have. The problem is, Dwyanes not a woman.
HalfPastNoon said:
The new Yao is coming,he's been working out all off season and has even been put on a lung transplant list
"You still think I'm sexy Lonestar..admit it!"
Cloudy said:
Hey Kotex.
Hmm, it was a passable trade I suppose, but not great by any stretch.Grant is ok, and will give you some beef up front, but I think now that he'll be banging in the West, he'll be averaging < 10 reb/game (not sure on his #'s last season, so perhaps he averages less than this anyway; I know he played with Portland and had success in the West, but he was also much younger and less banged up then). If they go to him in the post-- which they might, seeing as how they need to spread the wealth more with Shaq gone-- perhaps his scoring game could flourish again; he's shown flashes over the years, but too often settles for the 10-12 foot jumper along the baseline.
Odom is a HUGE plus, so long as he can stop toking up for a few days in a row at some point.
Very versatile, athletic, and a good slasher. He should also help on defense with traps etc. although he's never been a noted defender. His range has been improving, too. Good passer who will only get better with time; Kobe could use those skills to his advantage for a change, because Kobe used to be the only competent motion passer on the team-- now with Odom there, Kobe can run around and expect to get hit with some nice passes in stride, instead of having to initiate everything himself.For me, Butler is the only truly sour point. I just don't see him finding his niche with that team, particularly not now that Kobe's going to be taking significantly more shots. Butler's always struck me as solely a scorer-- very one-dimensional. And he operates on volume of shots, too, which will be hard to come by imo since his game doesn't complement Kobe's in the backcourt (i.e., Butler isn't a spot-up jump shooter, nor is he a slasher-- what is he, exactly? He seems to have no identity yet). Kobe needs a guy who can do one or the other really well (shoot the J or drive the ball) in order to relieve some of the pressure on him and create opportunities for others. I've personally never been impressed with Butler, but for some reason he's got name recognition (undeservedly so imo), so we'll see...
Hopefully LA can get another good big man with one of those two future first-round picks, because that's what they still need. I'm really surprised they went with Miami and their two perimeter players and adequate big over teams like Dallas (Walker, Jamison; though Walker isn't a banger) or Sacramento (Webber/Miller). I guess the offers either weren't there or weren't sweet enough. But this deal doesn't seem too sweet either lol. I don't know, I guess we'll see how it pans out in pre-season...
I'll tell you who DID make out nicely this off-season: San Antonio. Re-signed Ginobli and brought in a solid veteran in Barry (smart player, good passer), though I'm somewhat dismayed that Bowen will likely be relegated to the bench, which will somewhat diminish SA's legendary defensive prowess. Do they still have Malik Rose, btw?
HalfPastNoon said:
Well I hope not, too. I was just relating what I had heard in certain articles. I can't see Barry coming off the bench, and yet they signed Ginobli to a lot of dough, which seems to indicate that he'll play a bigger role this season (read: starter), so I just don't know where Bowen would fit.
Loki said:
It's pretty much confirmed down here that both Barry and Ginobli will be the duo coming off the bench. Manu, as many of you are aware of, provides a huge spark off the bench. Barry, today, said he had no problems backing up either Bowen or Parker.
Still, though, replacing Bowen/Paker with Barry/Manu is just scary.
I hate the Spurs.
Loki's back! Nice analysis of the trade...I always thought of Butler as a not-as-good Paul Pierce (a big but not athletic enough two guard), and I don't mean that in a good way.
The Spurs are ridiculously loaded. There's no way they don't get to the finals, as all the other of the west's elites took serious steps down (Lakers obviously lost Shaq, Kings aged and will lose Divac, Mavs are a disaster right now). Ok, so the T'Wolves didn't lose anyone, but they weren't good enough last year and didn't add anyone either.
In general, the West will be really weird. The borderline playoff teams in the west (Denver and Utah) all made MAJOR steps forward. That's the thing about the Lakers next year; it wouldn't suprise me if they didn't make the playoffs. In fact, the team I can see getting the enough spot over is Dallas. People just don't make a big enough deal out of how bad the Mavericks summer was. They gave up Jamison (their third best player) for a draft pick. I don't care how NBA ready Devin Harris is, it's a terrible trade if the pick wasn't used in a Shaq trade. As for the Shaq trade....I know Cuban insists the Lakers weren't trading Shaq to a WC team, but i'm sure a package of Nowitzki and Walker (expiring contract) would have done the trick. You just can't win a championship around Nowitzki...he's just a a shooting guard who is a decent rebounder and a terrible defender. And then Cuban decided not to match Nash. Granted, Nash was being overpayed in such a huge deal but if you already overpayed all the crappy players on your roster by 50% and will be over the cap for the next 5 years, you might as well keep your second best player.
So instead of having a possible Shaq/Jamison/Finley/Daniels/Nash lineup (CHAMPIONSHIP!) you have... Walker/Nowitzki/Finley/Daniels and whoever you want to masquerade out as center. In the West, that might not even be a playoff team.
The Spurs are ridiculously loaded. There's no way they don't get to the finals, as all the other of the west's elites took serious steps down (Lakers obviously lost Shaq, Kings aged and will lose Divac, Mavs are a disaster right now). Ok, so the T'Wolves didn't lose anyone, but they weren't good enough last year and didn't add anyone either.
In general, the West will be really weird. The borderline playoff teams in the west (Denver and Utah) all made MAJOR steps forward. That's the thing about the Lakers next year; it wouldn't suprise me if they didn't make the playoffs. In fact, the team I can see getting the enough spot over is Dallas. People just don't make a big enough deal out of how bad the Mavericks summer was. They gave up Jamison (their third best player) for a draft pick. I don't care how NBA ready Devin Harris is, it's a terrible trade if the pick wasn't used in a Shaq trade. As for the Shaq trade....I know Cuban insists the Lakers weren't trading Shaq to a WC team, but i'm sure a package of Nowitzki and Walker (expiring contract) would have done the trick. You just can't win a championship around Nowitzki...he's just a a shooting guard who is a decent rebounder and a terrible defender. And then Cuban decided not to match Nash. Granted, Nash was being overpayed in such a huge deal but if you already overpayed all the crappy players on your roster by 50% and will be over the cap for the next 5 years, you might as well keep your second best player.
So instead of having a possible Shaq/Jamison/Finley/Daniels/Nash lineup (CHAMPIONSHIP!) you have... Walker/Nowitzki/Finley/Daniels and whoever you want to masquerade out as center. In the West, that might not even be a playoff team.
RobotChant
Member
Ginobli will most likely be starting at the two with Barry coming off the bench. That'd leave Bowen to start at the three. Devin Brown and Barry will share minutes between the three and the two and in Barry's case, he'll probably be used at the one also. The Spurs had a great off-season. The moves they made should keep them atop the Western Conference.
DMczaf said:
Ray Allen - "Hahaha, and then the idiot said I was the 2nd best shooting guard in the league!"
bionic77 said:
Boy don't you look stupid.
"Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and Brian Grant pose for the cameras with Lakers general manager Kobe Bryant."
It should be noted that Brent Barry is also one of the best shooters in the league. He's a career 40.7% three point shooter (in the playoffs he's 42.6%), and shot 45% from behind the arc last year. Needless to say, they could've used him in the second round. The Spurs really look good, though I'd like to see Rasho's play improve (of course he's got no Shaq to deal with now). I wouldn't mind seeing the Spurs sign Malone as well, just to improve the front court depth. As for Malik Rose, he's still with the Spurs...though I don't think they'd be hesitant to trade him and his large contract. Personally I'd love to see the Raptors acquire him somehow, but I don't know see that could happen.
As for the TWolves, I think missing Cassell in the WCF last year hurt them big time. Had he been healthy, I think they would've gotten by the Lakers...he's one of the top five clutch shooters in the game, and seems to thrive in those pressure situations. For me they're the second best team in the west, and still a legit threat to the Spurs. Still, the Spurs almost look like a slam dunk to at least get to the final at this stage, barring any major future moves.
Gotta agree with Bat...Dallas not getting Shaq was just flat out stupid, especially since they lost Nash for nothing (how sad is it that they managed to lose Van Exel and Nash in successive years? That'd get you fired in some places).
As for the east it's Detroit, Indiana, Miami and nobody else (despite the ridiculous 180 degree turn hype about the east suddenly getting to the west's level just because the Pistons punked the Lakers in the finals). As overrated as I think K-Mart is, he was a perfect for the Nets, and I don't see how they're gonna be able to replace him. The Magic have to show me something before I get excited about their new roster. The Raps are in a state of flux until the Vince situation is sorted out, though if he stays I like them to make the playoffs. The Knicks will be overrated as usual. The Celtics are just an embarassment. Losing Skinner is a big blow to the Bucks. The Sixers are an aging team, though a resparked AI could still carry them to five or six more wins then they'd deserve (and in the east, that's good enough). As for Miami they're not gonna beat the Pistons, but Shaq is going to be absolutely scary in the east, along with a second year Dwayne Wade. Not sure what else they've got there though...their roster has changed quite a bit, what with them losing Alston as well.
Man, I remember a year ago being pumped up for the NBA season to start. It's quaduple that excitement now. Unless VC really does get trade for like Shandon Anderson (
DMczaf said:Why would he be a bench player? Wade at PG, Jones at SG, Jordan at SF and Shaq at Center
...damn you for making me think about this even more! This was a setup to make me cry in the corner tonight!
I definitely wasn't trying to make you cry.
In other news, I also heard a rumor that Jordan was going to play for the Lakers next year as Kobe's backup.............
Kabuki Waq
Member
Who would want to be a knick? on purpose?
"TSN.ca Staff
7/17/2004
Apparently, Vince Carter wants to be a Knick.
The Globe and Mail is reporting that Carter wants to be traded to an Eastern Conference team, ideally the New York Knicks, according to an NBA source told the newspaper.
"He wants out and he needs to go," the source told the Globe. "He is very, very firm on that. He needs to go. They're supposed to be working on something right now. It might have to involve a third team, or they may have to acquire someone and pass him through."
The source, who asked not to be identified, told the Globe that the four-time all-star would return for his seventh season with the Toronto Raptors only as a last resort.
Related Info
The Globe and Mail story
Raptors general manager Rob Babcock has said he has no plans to trade Carter while acknowledging that he's talked to eight or nine clubs about Carter.
Babcock told the newspaper he had no comment on reports about Carter's future with the Raptors.
Richard Peddie, the president and chief executive officer of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment played down suggestions the club is under pressure to deal Carter. He also dismissed rumours that have linked Carter to various deals.
"We want to keep Vince Carter," Peddie said. "We think he's very good on our team. I can call up rumours in every market. Rumours are part of the NBA.""
"TSN.ca Staff
7/17/2004
Apparently, Vince Carter wants to be a Knick.
The Globe and Mail is reporting that Carter wants to be traded to an Eastern Conference team, ideally the New York Knicks, according to an NBA source told the newspaper.
"He wants out and he needs to go," the source told the Globe. "He is very, very firm on that. He needs to go. They're supposed to be working on something right now. It might have to involve a third team, or they may have to acquire someone and pass him through."
The source, who asked not to be identified, told the Globe that the four-time all-star would return for his seventh season with the Toronto Raptors only as a last resort.
Related Info
The Globe and Mail story
Raptors general manager Rob Babcock has said he has no plans to trade Carter while acknowledging that he's talked to eight or nine clubs about Carter.
Babcock told the newspaper he had no comment on reports about Carter's future with the Raptors.
Richard Peddie, the president and chief executive officer of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment played down suggestions the club is under pressure to deal Carter. He also dismissed rumours that have linked Carter to various deals.
"We want to keep Vince Carter," Peddie said. "We think he's very good on our team. I can call up rumours in every market. Rumours are part of the NBA.""
Bat said:
Dude you are the first person in here other then me to recognize Pip as a great player. I always said he was a great player and Jordan couldn't have done anything without him. Granted he was never the same after he quit in that one game, but he was always a premier defender and a guy that made everyone else on the team (including MJ) better. Not a lot of players can claim that. Half the jordaphiles in here seem to think that Pippen was a terrible player whose only accomplishment was to play with Jordan, remember he was 2 minutes away from going to the Finals in a Jordanless team........ (and Bulls got raped in that game by the officials).
PartlyCloudlike
Member
bionic77 said:
Get off of your high horse. Please name half of the "jordaphiles" that said Pippen was a terrible player. You'd be lying if you did come up with a list, of course, because none of the "jordaphiles" I know on this board has ever said such a thing, and if they did it obviously was meant to be facetious. Evidently the joke flew over a few heads. Wait, no, it flew over one head: yours. Certain people complain Jordan is mentioned too many times on this board. They tell fans to "get over it" because Jordan's retired. Yet you probably mention Jordan as much as any other poster on this board. Thanks for perpetuating it. The only reason you're even standing up for Pip is because you feel indignant that Jordan gets so much credit -- it's more to do with your dislike for Jordan than your admiration for Pippen. What the hell are you talking about, "he was never the same after he quit that one game?" He became an even better player because he knew, more than ever, what it took to lead the team and he became even more prominant in bringing the ball up and initiating the triangle.
PartlyCloudlike said:
Actually, this came up when people were comparing Jordan to Kobe. The argument usually came up that Kobe would not have won anything without Shaq (very true), to which the Laker fans would respond that Jordan would not have won anything without Pippen (also true). The Jordaphiles (I think the term is pretty accurate myself) would respond that you can't compare Pippen to Shaq AND they would usually degrade Pippen to bolster their argument. This all culminated in Bish ending it once and for all by banning and Kobe v. Jordan arguments once and for all, because that was all people were talking about in the middle of the playoffs. As for naming the Jordaphiles who participated in these "debates", hmm, all that I can remember is me and Loki making preposterous claims with Loki claiming he had scientific evidence that Jordan was the fastest man to ever play the game and me claiming Kobe was the greatest player of all time when he made a big shot. Though I am sure that other people participated.
And that was my opinion that Pipp was never the same after that sesaon where he gave up. It probably wasn't that singular incident as much as it was probably getting older and injuries, but still in my opinion he was never the same offensively. He probably did become better at other aspects of his game as you suggest, such as defense and running the team, but I personally thought he was not the same athletically.
Also chill out dude.
PartlyCloudlike
Member
bionic77 said:
You can't come up with a list because no one on here ever said Pippen was a terrible player. And I vividly remember that thread, and no where did anyone say Pippen was anything less than an excellent player. Can you even provide a single name? I know for a fact Loki didn't. Furthermore, Pippens stats remained relatively unchanged in Jordan's second comeback.
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
91-92 CHI 82 82 38.6 .506 .200 .760 2.30 5.40 7.70 7.0 1.89 1.13 3.09 3.00 21.0
92-93 CHI 81 81 38.6 .473 .237 .663 2.50 5.20 7.70 6.3 2.14 .90 3.04 2.70 18.6
93-94 CHI 72 72 38.3 .491 .320 .660 2.40 6.30 8.70 5.6 2.93 .81 3.22 3.20 22.0
94-95 CHI 79 79 38.2 .480 .345 .716 2.20 5.90 8.10 5.2 2.94 1.13 3.43 3.00 21.4
95-96 CHI 77 77 36.7 .463 .374 .679 2.00 4.50 6.40 5.9 1.73 .74 2.69 2.60 19.4
96-97 CHI 82 82 37.7 .474 .368 .701 2.00 4.50 6.50 5.7 1.88 .55 2.61 2.60 20.2
97-98 CHI 44 44 37.5 .447 .318 .777 1.20 4.00 5.20 5.8 1.80 .98 2.48 2.60 19.1
The only differences were the result of aging but that's OBVIOUS. I doubt anyone will say he ended up less mature after sitting out those last couple of seconds, or that he degraded to a lesser leader due to that infamous incident. He became a better player because of it. And you keep on asserting he was "never the same" after "giving up," so you're clearly referring to something other than the effects of aging. Sorry but other than the effects of aging, which I doubt you were alluding to, he became a better player.
And as for the people who continually mention Jordan on this board to your ire, I decided to do a quick search for comparisons sake. Nothing scientific nor entirely comprehensive in regards to the topic matter. But it does give an insightful glimpse. I just wanted to see who mentioned Jordan more, DM or you.
I searched for DMczaf, one of the biggest Jordan fans I'm aware of, and the term Jordan: I came up with 34 posts.
http://forums.gaming-age.com/search.php?searchid=26252
Then I decided to search for your name, bionic77, and "jordan." And wow, the results were surprising: 52 posts
http://forums.gaming-age.com/search.php?searchid=26254
I think it's rather funny that someone who complains about people who mention Jordan on these boards happens to mention him more than one of his biggest fans.
First, as I stated before, in my opinion I thought that Pippen was not the same player. Then again I also thought Jordan wasn't as good as he was during the first three-peat. Just my opinion of course.
Second, I could have swore that a few people dissed Pippen in that thread, you claim something totally different. As that thread is gone there is really no way to check it, but of course if I am wrong I will gladly admit it.
And as for my Jordan references, that is grossly inflated because most of those posts are:
X > Jordan. Granted, there is a strong possibility that I am the only poster who finds any amusement in this, but as my team just went from Dynasty to lottery in the last few weeks I gotta have something to do. So I will likely have to hate on the Spurs or whoever else steps ups to fill the Laker's absence.
Personally people can mention Jordan all they want, I only get annoyed when they rip on Kobe and the Lakeshow. Then again, I suppose you and your brethern get annoyed when people claim that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Second, I could have swore that a few people dissed Pippen in that thread, you claim something totally different. As that thread is gone there is really no way to check it, but of course if I am wrong I will gladly admit it.
And as for my Jordan references, that is grossly inflated because most of those posts are:
X > Jordan. Granted, there is a strong possibility that I am the only poster who finds any amusement in this, but as my team just went from Dynasty to lottery in the last few weeks I gotta have something to do. So I will likely have to hate on the Spurs or whoever else steps ups to fill the Laker's absence.
Personally people can mention Jordan all they want, I only get annoyed when they rip on Kobe and the Lakeshow. Then again, I suppose you and your brethern get annoyed when people claim that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
PartlyCloudlike
Member
bionic77 said:
Then it stands, you're a hypocrite. Cheers.
bionic77 said:
Hey I thought I was the only person on this forum that thought that Pippen was the second best player in the league for a couple years. Pip rocked. It's even debatable that Pippen deserved at least one Finals MVP award. He had some seriously awesome playoff series.
Pip was an incredible defender. Pip did it without leaning on guys like Artest too. Pip used his feet and his reach. He was a "Doberman". Yeah sure he screwed up when he chose not to go back into the game, but his career was still amazing. His leadership skills later on in his career were definelty evident. It's too bad that everything I read about Pip regarding his personal life is that he's kinda a dink. I wish he could've ended his career with a highlight. Cause so far the last memory I have of him is him throwing a brutal inbounds pass at the end of game 7 against the Mavs in 2003 (I think I have the year and team right).
Jordan would have never had that level of success without Pippen. He was the perfect compliment.
Pippen was easily the best player in the league in that first full season that MJ was gone. I'd never thought much of Pippen before that season, but when it ended I had nothing but respect for his game. The thing about it is that MJ knew how important Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Phil and others were, because when the Bulls decided to let things fall apart after '98, MJ wanted no part of it.
People ask the same questions about VC all the time, heh. Though at least he doesn't cry...he just crutches his ankle for a half hour while wincing in pain.
I still don't get this idea that VC actually wants to play with the Knicks. Actually, that part I get...what I don't get is him wanting to play for a team coached by Lenny Wilkens, who he had no time for during his last year here. Then again Lenny will probably be replaced by Isiah the moment New York goes on their first two game losing streak, so that would take care of that.
VC better be careful what he wishes for though...as idiotic as the media is in this city, it isn't a tenth as bad as it is in New York, who'd stab their own mothers in the throat if it meant being able to write a hot column about it.
bionic77 said:
People ask the same questions about VC all the time, heh. Though at least he doesn't cry...he just crutches his ankle for a half hour while wincing in pain.
I still don't get this idea that VC actually wants to play with the Knicks. Actually, that part I get...what I don't get is him wanting to play for a team coached by Lenny Wilkens, who he had no time for during his last year here. Then again Lenny will probably be replaced by Isiah the moment New York goes on their first two game losing streak, so that would take care of that.
VC better be careful what he wishes for though...as idiotic as the media is in this city, it isn't a tenth as bad as it is in New York, who'd stab their own mothers in the throat if it meant being able to write a hot column about it.
"
VC better be careful what he wishes for though...as idiotic as the media is in this city, it isn't a tenth as bad as it is in New York, who'd stab their own mothers in the throat if it meant being able to write a hot column about it."
Exactly. You think their media will like him wincing after every drive?
VC better be careful what he wishes for though...as idiotic as the media is in this city, it isn't a tenth as bad as it is in New York, who'd stab their own mothers in the throat if it meant being able to write a hot column about it."
Exactly. You think their media will like him wincing after every drive?
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