Support NeoGAF

[NeonZ]

SSJ4 is an outstanding design and by far my top favourite in DB. If there was only a way for show producers to know SSJ4 is a fan fave; perhaps a video game statistic. E.g. SSJ4 the most played version of Goku in online battles, where it's available. (I don't know if that's true.)

From a merchandising/marketing point of view, the whole point of a new series is pushing new designs though. There's a reason that DB Kai was a failure in merchandising, but Battle of Gods and Revival F basically relaunched DBZ as a multimedia franchise. Dragonball Kai had high ratings in Japan, but it added nothing, differently from actual new stories. Going out of their way to hype an old design in a new story would just have the same result.

Of course, this intent doesn't really line up with Toriyama's recent minimalist designs and transformations, since more detailed and over the top ones are much more likely to stand out.

 

[RedAssedApe]

gross...keep that ssj4 as far away as possible. i want to see the receipts for those of you who claim it is a fan favorite design

 

[Heroman]

Wonder when we get a PV.

 

[Stevetopsy]

I want this badass back, please Toriyama admit you suck at transformations and GT transformation were better

SS4 Vegeta looks amazing :3

Best design in the Dragon Ball universe.

SSJ4 is an outstanding design and by far my top favourite in DB. If there was only a way for show producers to know SSJ4 is a fan fave; perhaps a video game statistic. E.g. SSJ4 the most played version of Goku in online battles, where it's available. (I don't know if that's true.)

It seem like since the release of Battle of the Gods that there has been a shift towards people liking aspects of GT more and more, and I feel like I'm in that camp as well. I'm not sure if it's because since the release of new movies and the announcement of a new series we aren't as bitter towards it as we were when GT was the final non-toriyama whimper of the series. I personally never looked at GT as canon with Z so I never really had strong feelings one way or another but since the release of new Z material it's become easier to compare some of the decisions made in GT without all of that bias.

Maybe it's just me reading into things, but personally I dig the look of SS4 more and more compared to (revival of F spoiler)

Spoiler

skinny Goku with red hair and then a blue color swap

.

 

[Zoolader]

I want this badass back, please Toriyama admit you suck at transformations and GT transformation were better

Well that is at least a much better transformation than God Goku and his red hair. SMH.

 

[Kito]

From a merchandising/marketing point of view, the whole point of a new series is pushing new designs though. There's a reason that DB Kai was a failure in merchandising, but Battle of Gods and Revival F basically relaunched DBZ as a multimedia franchise. Dragonball Kai had high ratings in Japan, but it added nothing, different from actual new stories. Going out of their way to hype an old design in a new story would just have the same result.

Of course, this intent doesn't really line up with Toriyama's recent minimalist designs and transformations, since more detailed and over the top ones are much more likely to stand out.

I don't mean making SSJ4 the mascot of the series. Throwing fans a SSJ4 bone for an episode late into the series and keeping it as a rare transformation, much like SSJ3, could be a nostalgic/controversial stunt to actually drive marketing.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Well that is at least a much better transformation than God Goku and his red hair. SMH.

I'll take Red or Blue hair for that matter over an 90's mullet.

 

[Nintendoga]

What exactly can they do to keep everyone else useful in the series. Goku and Vegeta are lightyears ahead of everyone else in terms of power. Basically comparing Raditz to Frieza's power level at this point.

Only way I see Gohan, Piccolo, and the others being relevant anymore is if they keep fighitng random mooks like in RoF, or do something to make Goku and Vegeta be away from the threat at the time.

 

[jstripes]

SSJ4 is an outstanding design and by far my top favourite in DB.

SSJ4 is a ridiculous design that makes no sense in comparison to the other transformation levels.

SSJ: Oh, he's got gold hair.
SSJ2: Oh, he has gold hair, a stronger aura, and is a bit angrier.
SSJ3: He's got way more gold hair, he's bulkier, and has no eyebrows.
SSJ4: He's got black hair again? And he's... half pink ape?

 

[killertofu]

This thread makes me want to rewatch the series.

Should I go with Kai?

 

[Tesseract]

i tried going super saiyan in the shower this morning

 

[MissDeviling]

just watched Battle of Gods and I'm really looking forward to the next movie and anime series. Missing the entire cast like they're long-lost family.

 

[The Silver]

SSJ4 is a ridiculous design that makes no sense in comparison to the other transformation levels.

SSJ: Oh, he's got gold hair.
SSJ2: Oh, he has gold hair, a stronger aura, and is a bit angrier.
SSJ3: He's got way more gold hair, he's bulkier, and has no eyebrows.
SSJ4: He's got black hair again? And he's... half pink ape?

that would be because it isn't like those other levels, it's a different branch and really shouldn't even be called SSJ4.

It makes sense for what it is which is a controlled Oozaru

 

[NeonZ]

What exactly can they do to keep everyone else useful in the series. Goku and Vegeta are lightyears ahead of everyone else in terms of power. Basically comparing Raditz to Frieza's power level at this point.

Only way I see Gohan, Piccolo, and the others being relevant anymore is if they keep fighitng random mooks like in RoF, or do something to make Goku and Vegeta be away from the threat at the time.

The main issue here is just the god power itself. If the other characters get it, they'll instantly jump to a tier pretty close to Goku's and Vegeta's. That's only possible right now for the Saiyans though, and even then it's only possible if Goku and Vegeta are around too, making that unnecessary.

Toriyama loves keeping Goku away or out of action while the other characters attempt to beat the villain as a way to build tension. That happened repeatedly in DBZ and even in the two recent movies. The main difference, with the movies, is that in the manga the secondary characters also got power ups, even if they all fail in the end, while in the recent movies only Goku and Vegeta got power ups. However, that could be just due to a movie's limited screentime.

I guess in the new anime we could get a situation where Goku and Vegeta are away, or out of action somehow, like being the first ones to fall, when the new villain appears, and we're introduced to some other method of gaining god power. In a movie, that'd be kind of pointless since there'd be hardly enough screentime to focus on secondary characters, thus the grunt fight in RoF, but it could work in a tv show or manga arc, like how everyone trained with kami in the beginning of Z. Of course, the progression of something like that, keeping Goku as the hero, likely would be the secondary characters losing anyway in spite of their power up, while Goku returns with something that goes even beyond the previous levels he had reached.

 

[kingslunk]

This thread makes me want to rewatch the series.

Should I go with Kai?

If you don't want to spend a year watching all the filler in DBZ then yes.

I've been re watching the series through Kai

 

[Nintendoga]

This thread makes me want to rewatch the series.

Should I go with Kai?

DBZ clocked in over 291 episodes. Kai is only around 150 episodes and already at Kid Buu.

Watch Kai.

 

[Crocodile]

What exactly can they do to keep everyone else useful in the series. Goku and Vegeta are lightyears ahead of everyone else in terms of power. Basically comparing Raditz to Frieza's power level at this point.

Only way I see Gohan, Piccolo, and the others being relevant anymore is if they keep fighitng random mooks like in RoF, or do something to make Goku and Vegeta be away from the threat at the time.

Do what most other shonen series do, make the "bad guy" a group of bad guys with a distinct hierarchy and then match bad guy to good guy based on their respective power. So while Goku & Vegeta are dealing with the "Big Boss", Gohan can take on the 2nd in command, Piccolo can take on the 3rd in charge, Goten & Trunks get 4th & 5th, Tien & Krillin get 5th & 6th, etc.

Also, not everybody has to be in the same place at the same time. If Goku or Vegeta aren't around for whatever reason, clearly someone weaker HAS to be the one to fight.

 

[Winterfang]

This thread makes me want to rewatch the series.

Should I go with Kai?

They or DBZ abridged.

 

[Kito]

SSJ4 is a ridiculous design that makes no sense in comparison to the other transformation levels.

SSJ: Oh, he's got gold hair.
SSJ2: Oh, he has gold hair, a stronger aura, and is a bit angrier.
SSJ3: He's got way more gold hair, he's bulkier, and has no eyebrows.
SSJ4: He's got black hair again? And he's... half pink ape?

SSJ4 isn't derived from SSJ1-3. You achieve it by Ape devolution, rather than standing and screaming. Therefore its different appearence makes sense. I personally like how the false linearity shocks expectations. SSJ4 is alluring, otherwordly and monkey-like. It is the true alien race that is saiyan.

 

[EGOMON]

gross...keep that ssj4 as far away as possible. i want to see the receipts for those of you who claim it is a fan favorite design

God no, keep this shit far away.

I'll take Red or Blue hair for that matter over an 90's mullet.

SSJ4 is a ridiculous design that makes no sense in comparison to the other transformation levels.

SSJ: Oh, he's got gold hair.
SSJ2: Oh, he has gold hair, a stronger aura, and is a bit angrier.
SSJ3: He's got way more gold hair, he's bulkier, and has no eyebrows.
SSJ4: He's got black hair again? And he's... half pink ape?

What?!
SSJ4 makes the most sense of all transformations, controlling the Great Ape immense power is the most likely end result.
It's like a cliché in modern anime see Naruto controlling the Kyuubi or Ichigo controlling the Hollow etc

 

[Northeastmonk]

I liked SSJ4 over SSJ3 because of the lack of eyebrows. I mean, Goku looks sinister in SSJ4. He looks more powerful than he does with gold hair. I can see why people don't like the plots in GT, but overall the feeling of Goku at SSJ4 is pretty good. It's not fleshed out very well because the battle with SSJ4 is already in a broken city. I agree it's a final result of his transformations, but its not being taken seriously because not a lot of people liked GT or what it did to the end of the series.

Transition SSJ4 from its prior timeline and make something similar. I prefer SSJ4 over God Goku just because God Goku feels lazy and easy to do.

They went to God Goku too soon. He barely had time to do anything and there he was, at God Goku mode. I think they'll make DBZ kinder this time around, much more light hearted, which is a shame. The last couple of films could have all basically taken place at the same point in time, at a BBQ (pretty much). I think they're branding off bringing the idea of DBZ back into the series, but they might just miss it altogether. You can only have so many ideas until it feels like you've lost the vision of what you were originally trying to create. I realize the movies aren't cannon per say, but they would need to start from a much slower pace and reach whatever spot they want to get at. I felt more of an impact from the Brolly films because Brolly packed a punch. The newer enemies are really up to your imagination IMO.

 

[RedAssedApe]

What?!
SSJ4 makes the most sense of all transformations, controlling the Great Ape immense power is the most likely end result.
It's like a cliché in modern anime see Naruto controlling the Kyuubi or Ichigo controlling the Hollow etc

which has nothing to do with why i don't like it. i think the color scheme and fur coat are ugly designs.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Man, the art for that ending is bad. I much prefer the original.

Kai is on a shoe string budget, so who knows what DBS will look like

Yes, I'm probably making this up too, aren't I?



http://thetotobox.com/blog/dragon-ball-z-battle-of-gods-new-movie-and-a-new-series/

This is what every major anime site was reporting at the time so yeah, you're totally off base.

And just so you know, chocolate is my preferred flavor for apology cake.

Oh look, a rumor that most were making fun of when it was making the rounds because it was complete bullshit. Yeah, a rumor totally fits what you were saying about them coming out and outright saying they were working on a new series. lol, give up dude.

 

[Jaeger]

SS4 is the best. It was the correct way to strengthen Goku beyond the first form. It makes the most sense, and highlights exactly what the Saiyans are; aliens. Aliens who can transform into giant Were-apes. And the design speaks volumes. Way more impactful in visual identify than lengthening the hair, or whatever they did twice with SS2 and SS3.

This form highlights the two most interesting aspects about the Saiyans, and fuses them into a single ass-kicking form, that was used during the duration of the show, and not quickly sidelined for a newer form with slightly longer hair or something. GT was incredibly flawed, and did not live up to expectations, however the SS4 Form is one of the shining pieces from the turd-fest.

 

[orochi91]

SS4 is the best. It was the correct way to strengthen Goku beyond the first form. It makes the most sense, and highlights exactly what the Saiyans are; aliens. Aliens who can transform into giant Were-apes. And the design speaks volumes. Way more impactful is visuals than lengthening the hair, or whatever they did twice with SS2 and SS3.

This form highlights the two most interesting aspects about the Saiyans, and fuses them into a single ass-kicking form, that was used during the duration of the show, and not quickly sidelined for a newer form with slightly longer hair or something. GT was incredibly flawed, and did not live up to expectations, however the SS4 Form is one of the shining pieces from the turd-fest.

Well said.

SS4 was handled really well, and I sorely wished it was in DBZ instead.

GT kind of diminished the significance of this particular transformation.

 

[NeonZ]

What?!
SSJ4 makes the most sense of all transformations, controlling the Great Ape immense power is the most likely end result.
It's like a cliché in modern anime see Naruto controlling the Kyuubi or Ichigo controlling the Hollow etc

Except that happened way back in the Piccolo Daimao arc. That already showed Goku using the power of the Great Ape without transforming into one.

Besides, Great Ape was something any Saiyan could do, while SSJ was a legendary transformation. It's kind of counter intuitive that Great Ape suddenly surpasses SSJ.

The last couple of films could have all basically taken place at the same point in time, at a BBQ (pretty much).

Huh... it feels like you're just talking about Battle of Gods. Unless you're calling Son Goku and Friends Return a "movie" too? RoF stumbled with the villain, but it shows that they realized that a significant part of the audience wanted more action focus.

 

[Jaeger]

Except that happened way back in the Piccolo Daimao arc. That already showed Goku using the power of the Great Ape without transforming into one.

Besides, Great Ape was something any Saiyan could do, while SSJ was a legendary transformation. It's kind of counter intuitive that Great Ape suddenly surpasses SSJ.

Not nearly the same fashion as a "SS" transformation does. And SS$ didn't diminish the legendary status of SS. SS2 and SS3 did that.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Except that happened way back in the Piccolo Daimao arc. That already showed Goku using the power of the Great Ape without transforming into one.

Besides, Great Ape was something any Saiyan could do, while SSJ was a legendary transformation. It's kind of counter intuitive that Great Ape suddenly surpasses SSJ.



Huh... it feels like you're just talking about Battle of Gods. Unless you're calling Son Goku and Friends Return a "movie" too? RoF stumbled with the villain, but it shows that they realized that a significant part of the audience wanted more action focus.

SSJ4 also doesn't make sense when you consider that Vegeta was shown way back in the Saiyan Saga being able to control the Great Ape form.

The transformation was literally created by pulling a tail out of Goku's ass and that's it.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Not nearly the same fashion as a "SS" transformation does. And SS$ didn't diminish the legendary status of SS. SS2 and SS3 did that.

Not really, as Toriyama explains SSJ2 and 3 are just modified versions of SSJ1, I don't see what the problem is because you need to be a Super Saiyan before being able to do those. If anything hurt the legendary status it was handing out the Super Saiyan form like fucking candy on Halloween.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Toriyama already said no more transformations, which is a refreshing approach to the series.

Lolwut

 

[Kito]

SSJ4 also doesn't make sense when you consider that Vegeta was shown way back in the Saiyan Saga being able to control the Great Ape form.

Great Ape ≠ Golden Great Ape. Vegeta couldn't turn SSJ back then to achieve the golden iteration.

 

[NeonZ]

Not nearly the same fashion as a "SS" transformation does. And SS$ didn't diminish the legendary status of SS. SS2 and SS3 did that.

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just stronger SSJs with visual changes. "SSJ2" isn't even called that before SSJ3's introduction. The only thing that diminished SSJ there was everyone getting it.

SSJ4 is something completely different though and heavily tied to the Great Ape transformation, in spite of using the SSJ name.

 

[DxGonzalo]

i tried going super saiyan in the shower this morning

Did you let out a golden liquid?

OT: I hate how much they nerfed gohan after cell. I will never get over that

 

[Jaeger]

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just stronger SSJs with visual changes. The only thing that diminished SSJ there was everyone getting it.

SSJ4 is something completely different though and heavily tied to the Great Ape transformation, in spite of using the SSJ name.

Not really, as Toriyama explains SSJ2 and 3 are just modified versions of SSJ1, I don't see what the problem is because you need to be a Super Saiyan before being able to do those. If anything hurt the legendary status it was handing out the Super Saiyan form like fucking candy on Halloween.

I agree that everyone with a drop of Saiyan being able to transform hurt the status quo of the form. However the whole "they are just modified SS1" shit AT and everyone is pushing is stupid. They are new forms. Regardless of whatever spin you place on it to make it sound less dumb than it is, they are new forms. Cliche anime power-ups. And they literally have # nomenclature letting you know which one you are in, and obvious visual changes to further that same goal. They are just as silly as 4 is, no matter how you spin it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Does Goku still sound like a screaming 10 year old girl? Because the original audio is almost unlistenable with Goku sounding the way he did when he was supposed to be 12.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Great Ape ≠ Golden Great Ape. Vegeta couldn't turn SSJ back then to achieve the golden iteration.

The point I was making was that he already had control over the form and didn't need to shrink into a humanoid or anything else like in GT.

Regardless we have already seen someone in Z "control" the Great Ape form and the only thing that was different was that he was rational in a giant monkey form.

 

[ArchedThunder]

I agree that everyone with a drop of Saiyan being able to transform hurt the status quo of the form. However the whole "they are just modified SS1" shit AT and everyone is pushing is stupid. They are new forms. Regardless of whatever spin you place on it to make it sound less dumb than it is, they are new forms. Cliche anime power-ups. And they literally have # nomenclature letting you know which one you are in, and obvious visual changes to further that same goal. They are just as silly as 4 is, no matter how you spin it.

In universe they made the number nomenclature up...

Does Goku still sound like a screaming 10 year old girl? Because the original audio is almost unlistenable with Goku sounding the way he did when he was supposed to be 12.

Because people love Masako Nozawa and she IS Goku to people in Japan. Just because some people who don't even live in Japan don't like her doesn't mean they should recast.

 

[Hypemaster]

Wait this was legit? Oh shit!!!

 

[NeonZ]

I agree that everyone with a drop of Saiyan being able to transform hurt the status quo of the form. However the whole "they are just modified SS1" shit AT and everyone is pushing is stupid. They are new forms. Regardless of whatever spin you place on it to make it sound less dumb than it is, they are new forms. Cliche anime power-ups. And they literally have # nomenclature letting you know which one you are in, and obvious visual changes to further that same goal. They are just as silly as 4 is, no matter how you spin it.

Like I added afterwards, SSJ2 wasn't even called that until we got SSJ3. And the entire nomenclature system was introduced in the silliest part of the Buu Saga (aside from the first couple of chapters when there wasn't even any villain around), when fat Buu still was the main villain, and Goku was trying to delay him by showing off his transformations. SSJ3 didn't even win any battles.

SSJ4 takes the SSJ name but then basically uses it for something unrelated to the previous SSJ forms.

 

[Jaeger]

Like I added afterwards, SSJ2 wasn't even called that until we got SSJ3. And the entire nomenclature system was introduced in the silliest part of the Buu Saga, when fat Buu still was the main villain, and it didn't even win any battles.

I agree. Z got silly. It seems AT realized that, and is doing some backpedaling to address those issues, and since it's his stuff he can do whatever he wants to. I wanna say it's not the first time a creator has had to do some cleaning up on his work. Wish this kind of thought went to my US comic books, but due to the different natures of how they function, it's just not possible.

 

[javac]

Vegeta should get his mustache back, now that would be super.

 

[Sandfox]

Why do Goku's clothes change when he becomes SSJ4? I have never liked that form lol.

Like I added afterwards, SSJ2 wasn't even called that until we got SSJ3. And the entire nomenclature system was introduced in the silliest part of the Buu Saga (aside from the first couple of chapters when there wasn't even any villain around), when fat Buu still was the main villain, and Goku was trying to delay him by showing off his transformations. SSJ3 didn't even win any battles.

SSJ4 takes the SSJ name but then basically uses it for something unrelated to the previous SSJ forms.

I wouldn't really say its unrelated given that the golden oozaru is SSJ.

 

[Kito]

The point I was making was that he already had control over the form and didn't need to shrink into a humanoid or anything else like in GT.

The point you were making was that SSJ4 was achievable in the saiyan arc like it's a plothole. Vegeta couldn't turn SSJ then, so SSJ4 was impossible. You're ignoring the SSJ4 conditions for a reductive argument.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Why do Goku's clothes change when he becomes SSJ4? I have never liked that form lol.

That always drove me nuts.

 

[Seven Force]

Why do Goku's clothes change when he becomes SSJ4? I have never liked that form lol.

I like SSJ4, but I always found that hilarious.

 

[javac]

Why do Goku's clothes change when he becomes SSJ4? I have never liked that form lol.

No different to why fusion gets you a swanky jacket, gotta look fresh when you kick ass.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I think they should let Dragonball rest. Despite GT ending about ten or more years ago, it still feels like Dragonball is constantly thrown in our face with at least two games per year, then the Kai edit, and then Battle of the Gods, and now the Return of Freeza.

Seeing it continuing after Buu saga with the focus still being on Goku just sounds like more of the same shit. The only way I might get excited for it is if I hear word that humans can wreck shit again, and that teamwork will be more viable this time around.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

The point you were making was that SSJ4 was achievable in the saiyan arc like it's a plothole. Vegeta couldn't turn SSJ then, so SSJ4 was impossible. You're ignoring the SSJ4 conditions for a reductive argument.

If that's the case feel free to quote where I stated SSJ4 was possible in the Saiyan arc. Your simply putting words into my mouth ....errrr posts.

I was merely commenting on how dumb the concept of SSJ4 is with the constant circle jerk of how new and unique "controlling" the great ape form was when it had already been under control perfectly fine before in Z.

If I was going to point out anything about plotholes, it would be why would Goku get so much stronger controlling the Great Ape form or "SSJ4" when in Z, it only gave a 10x boost.

Which makes SSJ4 redudant and useless considering a SSJ form with Kaioken would give a much larger boost. Which brings us back full circle of why the form doesn't really make any sense to me.

 

[Kito]

Why do Goku's clothes change when he becomes SSJ4? I have never liked that form lol.

The shirt got ripped by ape form, but the yellow trousers and black shoes are still there. It's just the colour of his wrist/waist bands. He's not suddenly wearing a skirt.

What about characters revived in undamaged clothes? Or fusion in Z as mentioned above? Your hate on SSJ4 isn't working everyone. Try harder.

 

[Lulubop]

SS4 is great, the final ascended form of a Saiyan should be a marriage of the Oozaru and the super Saiyan. SSG is corny, or at least it should have been the same idea in concept cause you know the Oozaru thing was kinda important. Was, I guess.